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Doomsday Clock moves closer to midnight

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Br Cornelius

Most cities and towns in the US have only ONE supplier of electricity or gas...no choice. What makes you think many houses in the US have almost zero insulation? We have one of the biggest movements of green construction, with double paned windows and replacement windows anywhere. Even in the South, where winters are mild, we have well insulated houses. My heat is on 60 degrees, I have on long johns, sweatpants, sweatshirt and a robe.Of course, we are talking about only the people who own their own homes which many have lost due to the economy. Yeah, people have been doing a lot of joy riding in their cars while gas has been four dollars a gallon. I've seen more bicycles and loaded buses in the last 20 years than I have my entire life.

I don't know why you think people, in general, in the US are so wasteful...movies I guess? Especially when jobs are so hard to find, they can't afford to attend school and living on the bare minimum in a lot of cases. Let them eat steak!

Because your per capita energy consumption is at least double that of almost anywhere else in the world apart from the Arabic gulf states. Thats a fact.

Br Cornelius

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Hawken

Do they move the doomsday clock closer to midnight when an asteroid comes near earth?

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Ralaman

*yawn*

Get on it with it then. Quit being pussies and start the final war.

Pansie ass humans.

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ellapenella

All of the predictions are slowly and incrementally coming to pass. There was no crying wolf. Soil is disappearing, clean water is becoming scarce, the climate is changing, the species are going never to be seen again. The fact that no one seems to give a **** isn't for the want of been warned.

There's no fluffy bunny way to dress these facts up, they are still as horrific as the day the scientists made them - we have just become dulled to their reality.

Br Cornelius

Before I sink

Into the big sleep

I want to hear

I want to hear

The scream of the butterfly

I hear a very gentle sound

Very near yet very far

Very soft, yeah, very clear

Come today, come today

What have they done to the earth?

What have they done to our fair sister?

Ravaged and plundered and ripped her and bit her

Stuck her with knives in the side of the dawn

And tied her with fences and dragged her down

I hear a very gentle sound

With your ear down to the ground

We want the world and we want it...

We want the world and we want it...

Now

Now?

Now!

The Doors Jim Morrison

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

complete lyrics

Yeah, c'mon

When the music's over

When the music's over, yeah

When the music's over

Turn out the lights

Turn out the lights

Turn out the lights, yeah

When the music's over

When the music's over

When the music's over

Turn out the lights

Turn out the lights

Turn out the lights

For the music is your special friend

Dance on fire as it intends

Music is your only friend

Until the end

Until the end

Until the end

Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection

Send my credentials to the House of Detention

I got some friends inside

The face in the mirror won't stop

The girl in the window won't drop

A feast of friends

"Alive!" she cried

Waitin' for me

Outside!

Before I sink

Into the big sleep

I want to hear

I want to hear

The scream of the butterfly

Come back, baby

Back into my arm

We're gettin' tired of hangin' around

Waitin' around with our heads to the ground

I hear a very gentle sound

Very near yet very far

Very soft, yeah, very clear

Come today, come today

What have they done to the earth?

What have they done to our fair sister?

Ravaged and plundered and ripped her and bit her

Stuck her with knives in the side of the dawn

And tied her with fences and dragged her down

I hear a very gentle sound

With your ear down to the ground

We want the world and we want it...

We want the world and we want it...

Now

Now?

Now!

Persian night, babe

See the light, babe

Save us!

Jesus!

Save us!

So when the music's over

When the music's over, yeah

When the music's over

Turn out the lights

Turn out the lights

Turn out the lights

Well the music is your special friend

Dance on fire as it intends

Music is your only friend

Until the end

Until the end

Until the end!

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Michelle

Though I tend to agree with your sentiments, I think its wrong to say that the average person can do nothing useful which was the purpose of my response. Its also important to remember that ultimately every single bigger institution is made up of average jo's and so if they all move in the right direction those institutions will also move. The foundational problem is that most people are still living in denial of the issues and from that place nothing can be achieved.

Br Cornelius

I didn't say they couldn't do anything, I said it made them feel helpless so that anything they did would feel worthless in the grand scheme of things.

Because your per capita energy consumption is at least double that of almost anywhere else in the world apart from the Arabic gulf states. Thats a fact.

Br Cornelius

Then I suggest you look at the income per capita and lay the blame on the people who aren't struggling to pay their bills. All that waste comes with a price most people can't afford.

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Doug1029

I'm so tired of hearing about "such and such is ruining the world " yet you never once hear about anyone doing anything about it

There's a CO2 sequestration project going on in Illinois. It's just a test, but the pilot plant has successfully sequestered 2100 metric tons of carbon. The capacity of the United States for such carbon storage is estimated at a 500 year capacity. A second (production) plant is under construction.

There's an ethanol plant going on line in Colorado to produce ethanol from wood.

Wind turbines go through town on an almost-daily basis. A new CD power line (CD has less transmission loss than AC.) will start construction across Oklahoma next year and should be on line in 2017.

Over the last ten years, the US has withdrawn 150 coal-fired plants.

Solar energy costs are coming down.

Wind power is neck-and-neck with gas-fired turbines for being the cheapest power source available.

New England Power has already signed the contracts for conversion to wind.

Doug

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Doug1029

I didn't say they couldn't do anything, I said it made them feel helpless so that anything they did would feel worthless in the grand scheme of things.

That's a philosophical point-of-view more than a factual one.

Then I suggest you look at the income per capita and lay the blame on the people who aren't struggling to pay their bills. All that waste comes with a price most people can't afford.

Do you heat with wood? I did. For six years. It's cheaper than the bottled gas alternative and the carbon is recycled. And the alternative is usually natural gas or coal from commercial electric plants which are even more polluting.

Do you use weather stripping around doors and windows? That will cut your energy costs a bunch. Most gas and electric companies will help you do a home energy audit to tell you where your money is going (and how to stop it).

Do you use window and door quilts? Just cover unused windows and doors with a quilt or other heavy insulating material.

Does your water heater have a blanket? Mine does. Cost me $15 for a sheet of fiber-glass insulation and some duct tape. Saves about $5.00 a month.

Turn off the pilot light in your furnace during the summer. Savings for me was about $5.00 a month.

Turn the temperature down in the winter and up in the summer. I keep the furnace set at 70 degrees F most of the time - once in awhile I turn it up to 74. In summer, I keep the AC at 78. Two or three degrees can make a major difference.

Add extra insulation in the attic.

If you have an older home, have it foam insulated.

Some of these have up-front costs, but most are minimal.

Next time you need a new roof on your house, use a white or light-grey shingle. It reflects solar energy back into space and costs no more than black shingles.

On south-facing windows, install passive solar heaters. They're simple to build and each can be installed for less than $50. Don't forget to close the shutters at night, else they'll go from heaters to freezers.

Place an old water heater (painted black) in a sunny place. Hook it into your water lines such that water passes through it before going into the regular heater. It pre-heats the water bringing down water heating costs, but may require a plumber to install. Make sure you include valves to cut it out of your system during the winter and allow it to be drained to prevent freezing.

Lost of ideas. I especially prefer ones that conserve energy. I don't like writing a check for energy I never used.

Doug

Edited by Doug1029

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Br Cornelius

Living in denial cripples people ability to take any constructive action since the first step to solving any problem is to acknowledge it.

As I, and Doug, have pointed out there are many small and large things which you can personally do once you have made the necessary step to acknowledge that you need to become part of the solution rather than the problem.

Denial is the cowards answer.

Br Cornelius

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Michelle

That's a philosophical point-of-view more than a factual one.

It most certainly is. One thing I have learned, in all my years of trying to get people on board conservation wise, is that you have to empower them. Don't overwhelm them, start out small and give them a few simple goals. When they have mastered those and actually see the results, they will be more willing to move on to other things. Sometimes it's just ignorance that prevents them from acting.

Do you heat with wood? I did. For six years. It's cheaper than the bottled gas alternative and the carbon is recycled. And the alternative is usually natural gas or coal from commercial electric plants which are even more polluting.

We don't have any working fireplaces in our home. The chimneys were removed years ago due to deterioration. I wish we did because we have an abundance of trees on our property that come down on a regular basis. The cost is astronomical to replace the old chimneys because we would have to adhere to historical society standards.

Do you use weather stripping around doors and windows? That will cut your energy costs a bunch. Most gas and electric companies will help you do a home energy audit to tell you where your money is going (and how to stop it).

That's sort of a no-brainer doncha think?

Do you use window and door quilts? Just cover unused windows and doors with a quilt or other heavy insulating material.

We actually have bubble wrap on windows in the back rooms that haven't had storm windows applied along with weather stripping on the doors from the rooms.

Does your water heater have a blanket? Mine does. Cost me $15 for a sheet of fiber-glass insulation and some duct tape. Saves about $5.00 a month.

We have an instant hot water heater that doesn't waste energy heating a tank full of hot water when it isn't needed.

Turn off the pilot light in your furnace during the summer. Savings for me was about $5.00 a month.

Another no-brainer.

Turn the temperature down in the winter and up in the summer. I keep the furnace set at 70 degrees F most of the time - once in awhile I turn it up to 74. In summer, I keep the AC at 78. Two or three degrees can make a major difference.

I keep the thermostat on 60 to 65 in the winter. I wear long johns, sweat shirts and pants along with a jacket or robe...unless I'm cooking, which heats up the kitchen just fine. In the summer I keep the air on 80 to 85. We have good cross ventilation and high ceilings which keeps it cool enough.

Add extra insulation in the attic.

My packrat husband and I spent more than eight months moving things from one side of the attic to the other replacing the deteriorated insulation. The attic has 12 foot peaks and it would have been a waste to insulate at roof level.

If you have an older home, have it foam insulated.

No one will do it because they are afraid the foam expansion will blow out our fragile lathe and plaster, but we did ask. On a side note, when I personally painted the outside of the house, which took me three months daylight 'til dark, I lost count after 75 tubes of caulk I used sealing all of the cracks.

Some of these have up-front costs, but most are minimal.

Next time you need a new roof on your house, use a white or light-grey shingle. It reflects solar energy back into space and costs no more than black shingles.

We installed light green. Hopefully we won't need it done again for another 25 years and there will be something better on the market.

On south-facing windows, install passive solar heaters. They're simple to build and each can be installed for less than $50. Don't forget to close the shutters at night, else they'll go from heaters to freezers.

We are limited in what we can do which can be seen on the outside due to living in a historical area.

Place an old water heater (painted black) in a sunny place. Hook it into your water lines such that water passes through it before going into the regular heater. It pre-heats the water bringing down water heating costs, but may require a plumber to install. Make sure you include valves to cut it out of your system during the winter and allow it to be drained to prevent freezing.

We live in the woods so basically anything solar is useless. And like I said, we have an instant heat hot water heater.

Lost of ideas. I especially prefer ones that conserve energy. I don't like writing a check for energy I never used.

Believe me, neither do I.

Doug

Incidentally, I have clothes lines outside and antique reel clothes lines indoors. Our clothes dryer has a filter system so we can direct the heat from the vent into the house in the winter when I do use it.

Edited by Michelle

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joc

All of the predictions are slowly and incrementally coming to pass. There was no crying wolf. Soil is disappearing, clean water is becoming scarce, the climate is changing, the species are going never to be seen again. The fact that no one seems to give a **** isn't for the want of been warned.

There's no fluffy bunny way to dress these facts up, they are still as horrific as the day the scientists made them - we have just become dulled to their reality.

Br Cornelius

In the first place...they aren't facts...and in the second place...they aren't facts! And btw...whatever happened to FluffyBunny?

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Michelle

Honestly Doug, I'm not quite sure why you felt the need to school me on the ways to conserve energy. I've started a couple of threads on the subject and neither you or Br Cornelius participated. These helpful hints are often lost in the bickering about global warming and the technicalities. You have to bring it down to a more personal level before it hits home with most people.

May I ask why you no longer heat with wood?

Edited by Michelle

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Br Cornelius

In the first place...they aren't facts...and in the second place...they aren't facts! And btw...whatever happened to FluffyBunny?

Again your ignorance of the facts doesn't negate their reality. Every one of the specifics I mentioned is a verifiable scientific reality. It just like your ignorance of man causing the exctinction of the megafauna - it doesn't invalidate its reality it just demonstrates your ignorance.

Br Cornelius

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spud the mackem

We are all concerned with Global Warming while the Chinese are merrily blasting out pollution with Coal fired power plants .

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Br Cornelius

We are all concerned with Global Warming while the Chinese are merrily blasting out pollution with Coal fired power plants .

You should concern yourself with what you can personally do, and personally you produce considerably more CO2 than the average Chinese person.

Br Cornelius

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majarashani

During all human history there was talks about coming catastrophe and it never happened. People like catastrophe and bad ends, but the true is nothing really hard happens. Nature is somehow by now balancing it self, but that do not mean that the catastrophe will not happens. We are destroying world to much and we are not really ready for any problem in that seance. Nature or "destiny" will return us back.

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joc

You should concern yourself with what you can personally do, and personally you produce considerably more CO2 than the average Chinese person.

Br Cornelius

The whole concept is patently ridiculous! In the first place CO2 emissions are not bad things...they are part of nature...this whole idea is so hokey, it pains my brain to wrap around the fact that so many people buy into it.

There is NOTHING that you personally can do to change the climate...there is nothing that WE as humans can collectively do to change the climate. The belief that we can is what is wrong here. There is NO science to back it up...every shred in fact has been proven to be a hoax...it is all smoke and mirrors by the ultra-communist AlGore....who took some doper's college paper and basically said, Hmmmm....I see a lot of money for me in this.

....so the guy travels the world in his jet...while his personal home's 'carbon footprint' is bigger than yours and mine and everyone else posting in this thread combined!

Where is his personal sacrifice? Just like every other Liberal Elitist...they want to exclude themselves from their draconian and ridiculous solutions.

And you buy into all of that.....how is that even possible? How? :huh:

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ellapenella

I haven't been reading much of this thread at all , just the title really. But what the heck is the comment regarding Co2 all about ?

Is it something to do with plants ?

Edited by Ellapennella
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joc

Basically, there are those who erroneously believe that CO2 emissions are harming the planet...and they seek to 'limit' the amount of CO2 going into the atmosphere by applying cap and trade economics to CO2 emissions. Note that some on here are more concerned about 'your' personal CO2 footprint than the incredible number of coal factories in China that are spewing out copious amounts of pollutants each and every hour of each and every day.

In short, CO2 cap and trade concepts are designed to make each of us pay a 'tax' for an ideal that is so laughable it isn't even funny...because they are serious about it!

So, someone like AlGore who flys all over the country in his jet...who uses more energy at his personal home than you can even imagine...wants to limit the CO2 emissions. So...let's say you are a company and they calculate your CO2 emissions to be 'over the allowed limit'...you can either decrease your emissions or pay a fine...basically it is a hoax theory gone viral as fact.,

It is a totally ridiculous concept...and the entire Go Green premise is actually nothing more than a deeply hidden communist plot to limit your personal wealth and freedom.

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Doug1029

Honestly Doug, I'm not quite sure why you felt the need to school me on the ways to conserve energy. I've started a couple of threads on the subject and neither you or Br Cornelius participated. These helpful hints are often lost in the bickering about global warming and the technicalities. You have to bring it down to a more personal level before it hits home with most people.

Somehow I missed your threads. But good work. My whole idea was to demonstrate that there are things common folks can do about warming.

May I ask why you no longer heat with wood?

I moved. The new house has no fireplace or stove pipe.

Doug

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Doug1029

Incidentally, I have clothes lines outside and antique reel clothes lines indoors. Our clothes dryer has a filter system so we can direct the heat from the vent into the house in the winter when I do use it.

:tu:

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Doug1029

We are all concerned with Global Warming while the Chinese are merrily blasting out pollution with Coal fired power plants .

Not entirely true. China has recently completed a huge hydro-electric project and shut down many of its coal-fired plants. That's one of the things that has brought crude oil prices down globally.

And all that Chinese pollution is produced to make products that other countries, especially Americans, buy. In a sense, we have exported our pollution to China. There's a simple solution to the problem: prohibit imports of products from countries that don't meet clean air standards. China will come around over night. They still haven't recovered from that contaminated dog food fiasco from a few years ago. They'll listen. And products that require pollution will get more expensive, reducing the amount purchased, and thus, manufactured.

Doug

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Doug1029

Basically, there are those who erroneously believe that CO2 emissions are harming the planet...and they seek to 'limit' the amount of CO2 going into the atmosphere by applying cap and trade economics to CO2 emissions. Note that some on here are more concerned about 'your' personal CO2 footprint than the incredible number of coal factories in China that are spewing out copious amounts of pollutants each and every hour of each and every day.

In short, CO2 cap and trade concepts are designed to make each of us pay a 'tax' for an ideal that is so laughable it isn't even funny...because they are serious about it!

Cap and trade is the idea that you can reduce pollution by setting a maximum limit on carbon emissions and requiring manufacturers to purchase carbon credits if they want to increase pollution. Because the total number of credits are supposedly fixed, the total amount of pollution is capped.

It is not a tax. It is a commodity. Carbon credits are commonly bought and sold on commodity exchanges. Though they don't raise taxes (The government doesn't get a nickel.), they would increase the price of polluting products.

The problem with cap-and-trade is that it doesn't work. A small army of brokers, inspectors and support staff is required to ensure that the carbon credits actually exist. And the cost of those gets added to the cost of the credits. A lot of money spent on "mitigation" does not reduce pollution: agencies and organizations that create carbon credits by doing things like planting trees must first acquire the land. Money spent on land does not decrease pollution. Yet a manufacturer has been allowed to increase pollution because he paid money into a mitigation fund. So pollution increases in spite of cap-and-trade.

And then there are Congressmen who pass special bills for their friends that exempt them from having to buy carbon credits.

Cap and trade is the industry fall back position. Once they lose the primary battle, which appears to be coming up in about 3-to-11 years, they can support cap-and-trade and continue polluting.

It is a totally ridiculous concept...and the entire Go Green premise is actually nothing more than a deeply hidden communist plot to limit your personal wealth and freedom.

What I don't like is big business limiting MY wealth and freedom. I fear the government less than I fear Wall Street.

Doug

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Haroo

The one thing that i hope never happens in the USA,is a total economic collapse.Imagine if there is a total economic collapse,and the Government issued a statement saying their would be NO MORE SSI checks/disability checks/Food Stamps,or any other form of aid issued for the foreseeable future..It is a known FACT,that MORE people in the USA are on some form of Government aid,than they are that are actually working..Take that away,and global warming is NOT the issue some make it out to be..Sure,i'll agree somewhat with the EPA,and environmentalists,and that global warming is a concerning issue,but what's more important,RIGHT NOW,or 75-100 years down the road??..To me,our future is NOW...And without jobs,and an improved economy,all that other stuff does NOT matter..Let all the checks,and aid stop,and chances are,Most will not survive long enough to worry about global warming anyways..Most would NOT survive 6 months...Some would not survive 30 days..Looting,and violence would skyrocket,and millions would starve to death.Be alot that would freeze to death too..Or in summer,die from heat exhaustion..Diseases would spread and kill many,while others would be killed defending thier properties..This is why i feel the economy,and jobs,are our #1 priorities...And NOT global warming,which some debunk anyways as being false..

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Br Cornelius

The whole concept is patently ridiculous! In the first place CO2 emissions are not bad things...they are part of nature...this whole idea is so hokey, it pains my brain to wrap around the fact that so many people buy into it.

There is NOTHING that you personally can do to change the climate...there is nothing that WE as humans can collectively do to change the climate. The belief that we can is what is wrong here. There is NO science to back it up...every shred in fact has been proven to be a hoax...it is all smoke and mirrors by the ultra-communist AlGore....who took some doper's college paper and basically said, Hmmmm....I see a lot of money for me in this.

....so the guy travels the world in his jet...while his personal home's 'carbon footprint' is bigger than yours and mine and everyone else posting in this thread combined!

Where is his personal sacrifice? Just like every other Liberal Elitist...they want to exclude themselves from their draconian and ridiculous solutions.

And you buy into all of that.....how is that even possible? How? :huh:

I am speechless at how much wrong can be packed into one post :w00t:

Really I think you are so ideologically driven (note the Al-Gore Communist comment) that you are beyond reason and no longer worth engaging with.

Its easy to make unsubstantiated rhetorical statements such as yours, and before you squeal liker a stuck pig, I can produce peer reviewed evidence to support every single statement I have made - can you ??

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Stubbly_Dooright

What is disturbing here is that none of you seem to believe there is anything we can do about the many challenges we face. The clock is meant as a warning in order to galvanize action to defuse the situation. Its seem to have failed.

What I see all around me is people who believe that what we are doing now is inevitable and an expression of human nature. Thats just bull****.

Br Cornelius

Well said. I was wondering why the clock existed, and did exist as a teaching tool. Apparently it's failing. What should we do, trade the clock in for an ipod touch with real cool app displays?

I see you pointing out the problems more often than giving the solutions to them. Besides putting up windmills or solar panels, which most people can't afford even if they do own a house, what can the average Joe do about where their electricity is coming from? What are they going to do about the 20 year old clunker they are driving so they can get to the only job they can find 30 miles away where there is no other transportation? They aren't going to throw away a perfectly good incandescent light bulb to go buy a twenty dollar replacement when they have a family to feed. They certainly can't afford to buy all new energy saving appliances or a new car.

There is only so much the average person can do. I for one am not going to make them feel like what little they can do is worthless, because we're all doomed if the things that are out of their control aren't fixed.

And I think this has good points. Although, are there not areas with incentives for things like getting solar power with kickbacks. I have a friend who bought a house with solar panels that not only power her home, but it also feeds into the town and town pays her for it.

Do they move the doomsday clock closer to midnight when an asteroid comes near earth?

this dang looming historic blizzard with all of these clouds is hiding the sight of seeing this asteroid I heard was going to pass on by!

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