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Anti-austerity coalition government in Greece


keithisco
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So have they resigned yet, or are they still stringing this out interminably?

Interesting point, it was made on the BBC political programme "This Week" when the point was made about the current government resigning if they lose the vote. if they do resign that's three Greek governments that have been replaced. shows Democracy and the EU in a whole different light.

25 minute mark.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b061bdj9/this-week-02072015

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Now your talking about Bonds, how is that relating to Bailout money.

Because due to these bonds they doubled their debt and needed double the bailout. The bailout did not double the debts (in fact that would take at least 15 years with compound interest.)

Edit: sometime I wonder if people have such short memories to get the timelines mixed up, but for those that do:

Greece went broke.

Europe bailed them out.

Greece started selling bonds again.

Europe got them a 50% haircut.

Greece started selling bonds again.

The debt doubled.

The sh!it hit the fan.

Edited by questionmark
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Because due to these bonds they doubled their debt and needed double the bailout. The bailout did not double the debts (in fact that would take at least 15 years with compound interest.)

Edit: sometime I wonder if people have such short memories to get the timelines mixed up, but for those that do:

Greece went broke.

Europe bailed them out.

Greece started selling bonds again.

Europe got them a 50% haircut.

Greece started selling bonds again.

The debt doubled.

The sh!it hit the fan.

What you seem to have missed out, (maybe a case of short memory) is the ECB was the biggest purchaser of Greek Bonds and this purchase came AFTER the ECB/EU agreed the Greek Bailout package in the first place.

The Bold is my reply. and corrections i've made to your timeline.

1 Greece went broke.

2 Europe Agrees €110Billion Bailout.

3 Europe the ECB having agreed to Bailout Greece, starts buying Greek Bonds, buying up Greek debt, the ECB keeps the prices of the bonds artificially high. European Banks, in particular French Banks benefit from this policy because it enables them to sell their Greek bonds to the ECB, as an inexpensive way of cleaning up their balance sheets.

4 Europe's first agreed bailout Package instalment is paid To Greece (first payment of of the €110Billion)

5 Europe got them a 50% haircut. (2011)

6 Greece started selling bonds again. (2014) (EuroBonds)

7 The debt doubled

8The sh!it hit the fan.

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What you seem to have missed out, (maybe a case of short memory) is the ECB was the biggest purchaser of Greek Bonds and this purchase came AFTER the ECB/EU agreed the Greek Bailout package in the first place.

The Bold is my reply. and corrections i've made to your timeline.

1 Greece went broke.

2 Europe Agrees €110Billion Bailout.

3 Europe the ECB having agreed to Bailout Greece, starts buying Greek Bonds, buying up Greek debt, the ECB keeps the prices of the bonds artificially high. European Banks, in particular French Banks benefit from this policy because it enables them to sell their Greek bonds to the ECB, as an inexpensive way of cleaning up their balance sheets.

4 Europe's first agreed bailout Package instalment is paid To Greece (first payment of of the €110Billion)

5 Europe got them a 50% haircut. (2011)

6 Greece started selling bonds again. (2014) (EuroBonds)

7 The debt doubled

8The sh!it hit the fan.

Boolcrappy, until Mario Draghi entered office in 2011 the ECB had never purchased a single bond, at best it would take bonds as collateral to loan a bank money. And the EuroBonds never were adopted, you should double check the stuff the Pinochio champion tells you.

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Because due to these bonds they doubled their debt and needed double the bailout. The bailout did not double the debts (in fact that would take at least 15 years with compound interest.)

Edit: sometime I wonder if people have such short memories to get the timelines mixed up, but for those that do:

Greece went broke.

Europe bailed them out.

Greece started selling bonds again.

Europe got them a 50% haircut.

Greece started selling bonds again.

The debt doubled.

The sh!it hit the fan.

So is that the fault of the current Govt, which people seem to keep trying to make it out to be, probably because they're a self-described left wing government? People are gleefully saying that the socialist experiment has failed and all the rest of it, but you can hardly blame the current Govt. for what Govts. have been doing going back years and years, can you now.
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So is that the fault of the current Govt, which people seem to keep trying to make it out to be, probably because they're a self-described left wing government? People are gleefully saying that the socialist experiment has failed and all the rest of it, but you can hardly blame the current Govt. for what Govts. have been doing going back years and years, can you now.

That they promised the people something they can't deliver and thus won the election. There is only one way out when you are so deep in debt that nobody wants to give you any money anymore: spend less than you earn.

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Looks like a no I am glad for the Greek people and for Europe.

The "no" will mean that it will take 100 years to achieve the level of 2001 again... but if that is what they want: lots of fun, you deserve it.

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The "no" will mean that it will take 100 years to achieve the level of 2001 again... but if that is what they want: lots of fun, you deserve it.

what level do you speak of?, I don`t see any level I see that the healthcare doesn't work, the education deosnt work, horrendous unemployment, that people must work second most in OCD comparison and don`t get anything, I see horrendous taxes and I see small pensions? Lets hope this level will never ever be "achieved" again. Last but not least I see that the creditors try to push their agenda which already failed.

And don`t think other nations are better off the derivatives the debts will hit them hard soon.

Edited by hellwyr
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what level do you speak about I don`t see any level I see that the healthcare doesn't work, the education deosnt work, horrendous unemployment, that people must work the most and don`t get anything, I see horrendous taxes and I see small pensions? Lets hope this level will never ever be "achieved" again.

And don`t think other nations are better off the derivatives the debts will hit them hard soon.

And if it is "no" by what magic do you think Greece will suddenly have money to pay for overstaffed ministries, public offices and the health care that is 100% dependent on foreign imports?

The other nations are pretty well hedged against the debt, in their books it is due 10 years after the time Greece has to pay back. Sure it is a lot of money but somehow they figured from day one that they would not get it back. The only iffy thing is the 80 billion emergency funding for the banks... but I guess that the banks will be there to repay.

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Boolcrappy, until Mario Draghi entered office in 2011 the ECB had never purchased a single bond, at best it would take bonds as collateral to loan a bank money. And the EuroBonds never were adopted, you should double check the stuff the Pinochio champion tells you.

The dates are from Wiki, which are from Eurostat. and the information regarding the ECB buying Bonds is from De Speigel.

Dated 2010.

ECB Buying Up Greek Bonds.

By Wolfgang Reuter

The European Central Bank has been buying up Greek bonds by the bucketload, even though Athens is already getting money from an EU rescue fund. German central bankers suspect a French plot behind the massive buy-up -- after all, it gives French banks the perfect opportunity to get rid of their Greek assets.

Many Bundesbank members are wondering why the ECB is buying Greek bonds in the first place, particularly on this scale, now that the euro-zone countries' €110 billion bailout package for Greece has been approved

By buying up Greek debt, the ECB keeps the prices of the bonds artificially high. French banks, in particular, benefit from this policy because it enables them to sell their Greek bonds to the ECB, as an inexpensive way of cleaning up their balance sheets. France's banks and insurance companies have a total of about €80 billion in Greek government bonds on their books.

http://www.spiegel.d...e-a-697680.html

Has for time line - you now how to follow the sources of Wiki. via the bottom of the page.

https://en.wikipedia...crisis_timeline

Edited by stevewinn
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The dates are from Wiki, which are from Eurostat. and the information regarding the ECB buying Bonds is from De Speigel.

Has for time line - you now how to follow the sources of Wiki. via the bottom of the page.

https://en.wikipedia...crisis_timeline

If that is the case the ECB would have done something against the law, until 2012 the ECB was barred from buying any sovereign debt according to art. 123. [Art. 123 TFEU regarding prohibition of the ECB and the central banks of the Member States from granting overdraft facilities or any other type of credit facility to public authorities and bodies of the Union and of Member States and from purchasing directly from them their debt instruments. However, the grant of financial assistance by one/some Member State to another Member State is not covered by that prohibition]

That changed with Draghi. So in 2010 the ECB only could have taken the bonds as collateral from a bank. Not until last month, when the European Court decided that it was legal could the ECB buy any bonds at all (despite the announcement by Draghi in 2012 that he would). All I can say: shoddy reporting by Spiegel. To finance governments the TFSF was created, but that has nothing to do with the ECB. And the TSFS gives credits, it does not buy bonds.

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what level do you speak of?, I don`t see any level I see that the healthcare doesn't work, the education deosnt work, horrendous unemployment, that people must work second most in OCD comparison and don`t get anything, I see horrendous taxes and I see small pensions? Lets hope this level will never ever be "achieved" again. Last but not least I see that the creditors try to push their agenda which already failed.

And don`t think other nations are better off the derivatives the debts will hit them hard soon.

I am not fully aware of history.I think Greeks should work like Japanese for atleast 15 years from now . I have heard Japanese used to work on weekends and work for long hours after their country was devastated after ww2. This might just be a story but definitely worth saving Greek. During war time I guess even American workers worked long hours in factories producing war supplies ,of course they would have earned more but currently Greeks can't afford the luxury. So if they vote no Greeks should work double time and pay off their debts by honest and hard work.

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If that is the case the ECB would have done something against the law, until 2012 the ECB was barred from buying any sovereign debt according to art. 123. [Art. 123 TFEU regarding prohibition of the ECB and the central banks of the Member States from granting overdraft facilities or any other type of credit facility to public authorities and bodies of the Union and of Member States and from purchasing directly from them their debt instruments. However, the grant of financial assistance by one/some Member State to another Member State is not covered by that prohibition]

That changed with Draghi. So in 2010 the ECB only could have taken the bonds as collateral from a bank. Not until last month, when the European Court decided that it was legal could the ECB buy any bonds at all (despite the announcement by Draghi in 2012 that he would). All I can say: shoddy reporting by Spiegel. To finance governments the TFSF was created, but that has nothing to do with the ECB. And the TSFS gives credits, it does not buy bonds.

Im only repeating what was reported at the time, and its fair to say its reported by numerous credible NEWS outlets. So the EU must have broken their own rules, or done a sleight of hand trick to get around it.

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I am not fully aware of history.I think Greeks should work like Japanese for atleast 15 years from now . I have heard Japanese used to work on weekends and work for long hours after their country was devastated after ww2. This might just be a story but definitely worth saving Greek. During war time I guess even American workers worked long hours in factories producing war supplies ,of course they would have earned more but currently Greeks can't afford the luxury. So if they vote no Greeks should work double time and pay off their debts by honest and hard work.

But the Greek population size is only 10.8 million people, to put that into context that's smaller than the population of London. how can anyone expect them to payback the debt in full let alone the interest on that debt. At some point a proportion of the debt needs to be written off.

The BBC are reporting is a overwhelming NO vote, 60+% massive, massive test for the EU & ECB, how will it look to the world markets if the central Bank (ECB) the lender of last resort doesn't step in, and Greece leaves the Eurozone. signal the end of the single currency.

Edited by stevewinn
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I am not fully aware of history.I think Greeks should work like Japanese for atleast 15 years from now . I have heard Japanese used to work on weekends and work for long hours after their country was devastated after ww2. This might just be a story but definitely worth saving Greek. During war time I guess even American workers worked long hours in factories producing war supplies ,of course they would have earned more but currently Greeks can't afford the luxury. So if they vote no Greeks should work double time and pay off their debts by honest and hard work.

yeah like the bankers "sarcasm off"

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Im only repeating what was reported at the time, and its fair to say its reported by numerous credible NEWS outlets. So the EU must have broken their own rules, or done a sleight of hand trick to get around it.

No, the EU did nothing of what you imply, which is to buy the Greek bonds from Greece. Those bonds might have endangered a French bank's stability and the ECB gave them money and took them as collateral, which was legal. But it was a French bank (or whatever) who bought those bonds from Greece, not the ECB.

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No, the EU did nothing of what you imply, which is to buy the Greek bonds from Greece. Those bonds might have endangered a French bank's stability and the ECB gave them money and took them as collateral, which was legal. But it was a French bank (or whatever) who bought those bonds from Greece, not the ECB.

Q, your saying De Spiegel is wrong. You say the ECB couldn't buy Bonds until a change in 2015. we have news pieces dating from 2010, onwards of the ECB repeatedly buying Government bonds.

2010

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/ecb-buying-up-greek-bonds-german-central-bankers-suspect-french-intrigue-a-697680.html

2011

The European Central Bank on Thursday resumed buying government bonds and offering loans to the region’s banks in an attempt to relieve tensions in eurozone financial markets.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d1a530a6-be7f-11e0-ab21-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3f0smnzQq

ECB buys €22bn in eurozone bonds: The European Central Bank spent €22bn on government bonds last week – more than ever before – as it sought to prevent the Eurozone debt crisis escalating out of control.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6c8e0812-c746-11e0-a9ef-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3f0smnzQq

ECB says will "actively implement" bond-buying: The European Central Bank said on Sunday it would "actively implement" its controversial bond-buying programme to fight the euro zone's debt crisis

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/07/us-crisis-ecb-idUSTRE7762PE20110807

The European Central Bank drove yields on Italian and Spanish debt sharply lower Monday when it bought sovereign bonds issued by both countries for the first time:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424053111904140604576495642494019216

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Guest Br Cornelius

So the **** finally hit the fan with a Greek No vote. This definitely forces the hand of the creditors into considering the write down that everyone knows is the only way out of this crisis, its either that or the Euro starts to plummet in value as it loses all credibility as a viable currency.

I suspect the house of cards is about to fall and the contagion will make the crisis of 2008 look like a teady bears picnic.

Br Cornelius

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yes, I must say good for them in not taking the easy option. But as QM and Leo have pointed out, the Euro is strong and stable so I really don't think anyone need make too much of a fuss.

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Guest Br Cornelius

It can only remain strong and stable if this crisis is resolved.

The whole debt crisis is not just a Greek problem, most of the large players are running huge debts as well.

Debt slavery is the oldest game in the book and Greece have called time on those who profit from it.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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But the Greek population size is only 10.8 million people, to put that into context that's smaller than the population of London. how can anyone expect them to payback the debt in full let alone the interest on that debt. At some point a proportion of the debt needs to be written off.

The BBC are reporting is a overwhelming NO vote, 60+% massive, massive test for the EU & ECB, how will it look to the world markets if the central Bank (ECB) the lender of last resort doesn't step in, and Greece leaves the Eurozone. signal the end of the single currency.

I think you would be expecting this question . Ho. Did such a small ppopulation manage to amass such huge debt ?

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I think you would be expecting this question . Ho. Did such a small population manage to amass such huge debt ?

Because the EU kept pushing money on them.
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http://yanisvaroufak...nister-no-more/

finance minister resigns after pressure from the EU

Germany still wants to play the same game and doesnt want to compromise Merkel said there is not gonna be a haircut...

Germany is going to ruin the Eu after she has exploited it, at least that is the impression if Merkel's rhetoric is considered.

Edited by hellwyr
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I think you would be expecting this question . Ho. Did such a small ppopulation manage to amass such huge debt ?

Like Norbert said, plus as we all know once you start acquiring debt the interest on that debt keeps growing and growing until it becomes unsustainable, its rather telling that the Eurozone/ECB allowed Greece to acquire so much debt in a bid to buy time so the likes of Germany, France etc... could to reduce their exposure.

Greece should just start printing €20 Euros. :w00t:

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