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Anti-austerity coalition government in Greece


keithisco
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It Seems a deal could be reached tonight

Apparently Merkel said that won`t happen, tonight they`re only going to discuss. xd

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Apparently Merkel said that won`t happen, tonight they`re only going to discuss. xd

The only reason the meeting still is happening is that if they cancelled it tomorrow the bourses would freak.

Edit: latest news is deadline extended to Thursday.

Edited by questionmark
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They're really trying my patience. You know they'll come to some deal won't they, it's so predictable. All this talk of the dramatic consequences of Grexit, it's all just a load of blackmail to get them the best terms they possibly can before Greece signs on the dotted line, as of course it will. What a nasty bunch of extortionists the EU truly are.

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They're really trying my patience. You know they'll come to some deal won't they, it's so predictable. All this talk of the dramatic consequences of Grexit, it's all just a load of blackmail to get them the best terms they possibly can before Greece signs on the dotted line, as of course it will. What a nasty bunch of extortionists the EU truly are.

Allow me to see that the other way around: it is just a way to try to extort the EU so Syriza can fulfill its election promises. And if they get away with it expect the EU to get slightly more expensive for all.

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You think the mighty Empire couldn't crush greece under its thumb like that if it wanted to? Do you really think all this talk about Grexit bringing about the collapse of the Euro, of the EU, of the Global economy, and of civilisation as we know it, isn't all (or very largely) a big load of emotional blackmail?

(Credit to the spell checker, incidentally, for not flagging up "Grexit"; good to see it's up to date with current affairs.)

Edited by Norbert the Incredible
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You think the mighty Empire couldn't crush greece under its thumb like that if it wanted to? Do you really think all this talk about Grexit bringing about the collapse of the Euro, of the EU, of the Global economy, and of civilisation as we know it, isn't all (or very largely) a big load of emotional blackmail?

(Credit to the spell checker, incidentally, for not flagging up "Grexit"; good to see it's up to date with current affairs.)

No, that is the part of the Currency War battlefield, a low Euro fortifies the business activity in the Eurozone... and the speculators are happy to play in that farce because they can earn some money.

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They're really trying my patience. You know they'll come to some deal won't they, it's so predictable. All this talk of the dramatic consequences of Grexit, it's all just a load of blackmail to get them the best terms they possibly can before Greece signs on the dotted line, as of course it will. What a nasty bunch of extortionists the EU truly are.

Well said!

Greece is a country and not a company. You just don't 'roll-up' a country with bad books and sell the Acropolis and its islands to Goldman Sachs for a pittance.

There was always gonna be a deal. The Germans just wanna play God.

Good to see the Greek left wing government give the EU so much grief though...

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Allow me to see that the other way around: it is just a way to try to extort the EU so Syriza can fulfill its election promises. And if they get away with it expect the EU to get slightly more expensive for all.

Greece is a small country with a GDP representing 2% of the eurozone. You have got to be kidding me, saying that Greece is extorting anyone. The EU put the gun to Greece's head and the left wing Greek government called their bluff.

Well done Greece.

Edited by Harry_Dresden
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It seems the Deal is almost done, The Eurozone has more to lose than Greece if there was a Greek exit. imagine a Greece outside the Eurozone returning to the drachma, they'd be able to set their own interest rates relative to their economic situation, devalue their currency, resulting in cheaper Holidays/tourism, Her exports would also be much cheaper. inward investment would also rise. jobs and employment would improve as a result. and a few years down the line, Greece would be flourishing compared to today - What sort of message would that send out to others. the Genie would be out of the bottle for the EU. people would see, if you default on your debts nothing happens. You get a bad credit rating. But you don't sink down a black hole never to be seen again. If the world Can forgive and then go onto trade with Germany, and allow Germany to be the dominant power in the EU/Eurozone within 50 years of the atrocities she carried out namely during World War Two. Im sure Greece leaving the Eurozone in comparison, is no comparison and Trade and investment - foreign investment with Greece would continue. Greece has nothing to lose. Exit Greece and fulfil your potential.

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As I read today Greece made a lot of concessions like cuting pensions, raising taxes for companies and prices on medical supllies..etc I really don`t see how those measures would be beneficial for Greece`s economy. Also I do believe in the EU as a project, but right now I get the impression it is more an empire lead by Germany and based on inequality than anything else. As allready mentioned in this thread the MSs of the EU should take into consideration that by sticking with the EU, Greece`s disadventages overweight her adventages , thus they should rather support Greece and try to create a real common market, instead of behaving as if the fact that Greece is part of the monetary union has/had no effect on her economy. That is fullly ignorant and I get the feeling that a few people within the EU are taking adventage of this situation to further their power and sphere of influance.

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As I read today Greece made a lot of concessions like cuting pensions, raising taxes for companies and prices on medical supllies..etc I really don`t see how those measures would be beneficial for Greece`s economy. Also I do believe in the EU as a project, but right now I get the impression it is more an empire lead by Germany and based on inequality than anything else. As allready mentioned in this thread the MSs of the EU should take into consideration that by sticking with the EU, Greece`s disadventages overweight her adventages , thus they should rather support Greece and try to create a real common market, instead of behaving as if the fact that Greece is part of the monetary union has/had no effect on her economy. That is fullly ignorant and I get the feeling that a few people within the EU are taking adventage of this situation to further their power and sphere of influance.

Anybody who knows Greece from before the EU and from before the Euro knows that before it did not work at all. It was a pretty depressed economy that had a currency that never permitted any calculation longer than two days because it was devalued again. So, no, Greece benefited and still does benefit from the EU (in fact, there is not a single infrastructure program that is not paid at least half by the EU in this country).

What you can't explain anybody in the EU is that in Greece civil servants retire at around 50 and that this has to be paid by the tax money of somebody in Rumania who gets to work until he is 68. What you can't explain to anybody is that a retiree in Slovakia has to pay taxes on his measly 200 Euros a month and that this money ends up in Greece to pay retirements that are triple that. And you can't explain to anybody in Hungary that they have to pay 27% of VAT so the Greeks can keep theirs at 19% (and 16% on the islands).

If Greece earns it, Greece can spend it on whatever they want, but they do not. And that is the point to consider here. They are making more and more debts to pay for something that they can't afford (and I have already pointed out that there are other budgets to save on but retirements and taxes). And it is not only the Germans who pay for it, it is that retiree in Rumania, in Slovakia and the shopper in Hungary besides everybody else .

If somebody claims that there is no solidarity with Greece, between 2007 and 2013, the Eu has transferred 24 billion for public works, subsidies to open businesses and develop the infrastructure. And to put that into perspective: That is twice as much as Greece's average annual budget for those years. And there were still enough billions earmarked for Greece in Brussels that never got claimed because the Greek governments could not come up with the 10% own capital required to get more subsidies.

The only way Greece will ever get to a level where they can go to a bank (more than once of course) and get a credit again is to quit spending more than it makes. And before somebody screams debt cut: we had that 6 years ago with the result that Greece could go again to a bank and private creditors and collect the same amount of money again... after a year the situation was the same as before.

So cut the socialist romantic (which must be because there is a left government currently in place), spending somebody else's money has never made anybody prosper (just gave him the appearance of prosperity).

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Anybody who knows Greece from before the EU and from before the Euro knows that before it did not work at all. It was a pretty depressed economy that had a currency that never permitted any calculation longer than two days because it was devalued again. So, no, Greece benefited and still does benefit from the EU (in fact, there is not a single infrastructure program that is not paid at least half by the EU in this country).

What you can't explain anybody in the EU is that in Greece civil servants retire at around 50 and that this has to be paid by the tax money of somebody in Rumania who gets to work until he is 68. What you can't explain to anybody is that a retiree in Slovakia has to pay taxes on his measly 200 Euros a month and that this money ends up in Greece to pay retirements that are triple that. And you can't explain to anybody in Hungary that they have to pay 27% of VAT so the Greeks can keep theirs at 19% (and 16% on the islands).

If Greece earns it, Greece can spend it on whatever they want, but they do not. And that is the point to consider here. They are making more and more debts to pay for something that they can't afford (and I have already pointed out that there are other budgets to save on but retirements and taxes). And it is not only the Germans who pay for it, it is that retiree in Rumania, in Slovakia and the shopper in Hungary besides everybody else .

If somebody claims that there is no solidarity with Greece, between 2007 and 2013, the Eu has transferred 24 billion for public works, subsidies to open businesses and develop the infrastructure. And to put that into perspective: That is twice as much as Greece's average annual budget for those years. And there were still enough billions earmarked for Greece in Brussels that never got claimed because the Greek governments could not come up with the 10% own capital required to get more subsidies.

The only way Greece will ever get to a level where they can go to a bank (more than once of course) and get a credit again is to quit spending more than it makes. And before somebody screams debt cut: we had that 6 years ago with the result that Greece could go again to a bank and private creditors and collect the same amount of money again... after a year the situation was the same as before.

So cut the socialist romantic (which must be because there is a left government currently in place), spending somebody else's money has never made anybody prosper (just gave him the appearance of prosperity).

Befor ethe cirsis 12,8 percent of Greece`s BIP was spent on pension after teh crises teh BIP declined so the figuers went up. The average is 720 euros pension, the average age for men to retire is 64,4 and for women 64,5 according to teh EU comission . By OECD statistic a Greek citizen wokrs fulltime/partiem 2037 hours a year, second highest figuer in OECD. The deficit was 15,6 percent 2009 and last year they decreased it by 2,5 percent (saving) 2012 726.000 worked in public sector 2015 it were 651.000. It is just propaganda you are talking about.

Every country gains subsidies from teh EU, greece is no speciality, it still doesnt outweih the disadventage of joining the Eu as monetary policy is concerned.

And don`t forget the crisis was iniated by the housing bubble built on false credit in the US, those folders were connected to europe through hedging. This was the beginning and the crisis was mastered by bailing out banks and making debts. No real regulation took place and now a new bubble developed, the financial amrkets are overflown with false credits we will see soon how that turns out. And Greece didnt have the measures and isntruments to fight against it also they had to bail out german investors and foreign banks,

Edited by hellwyr
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Anybody who knows Greece from before the EU and from before the Euro knows that before it did not work at all. It was a pretty depressed economy that had a currency that never permitted any calculation longer than two days because it was devalued again. So, no, Greece benefited and still does benefit from the EU (in fact, there is not a single infrastructure program that is not paid at least half by the EU in this country).

What you can't explain anybody in the EU is that in Greece civil servants retire at around 50 and that this has to be paid by the tax money of somebody in Rumania who gets to work until he is 68. What you can't explain to anybody is that a retiree in Slovakia has to pay taxes on his measly 200 Euros a month and that this money ends up in Greece to pay retirements that are triple that. And you can't explain to anybody in Hungary that they have to pay 27% of VAT so the Greeks can keep theirs at 19% (and 16% on the islands).

If Greece earns it, Greece can spend it on whatever they want, but they do not. And that is the point to consider here. They are making more and more debts to pay for something that they can't afford (and I have already pointed out that there are other budgets to save on but retirements and taxes). And it is not only the Germans who pay for it, it is that retiree in Rumania, in Slovakia and the shopper in Hungary besides everybody else .

If somebody claims that there is no solidarity with Greece, between 2007 and 2013, the Eu has transferred 24 billion for public works, subsidies to open businesses and develop the infrastructure. And to put that into perspective: That is twice as much as Greece's average annual budget for those years. And there were still enough billions earmarked for Greece in Brussels that never got claimed because the Greek governments could not come up with the 10% own capital required to get more subsidies.

The only way Greece will ever get to a level where they can go to a bank (more than once of course) and get a credit again is to quit spending more than it makes. And before somebody screams debt cut: we had that 6 years ago with the result that Greece could go again to a bank and private creditors and collect the same amount of money again... after a year the situation was the same as before.

So cut the socialist romantic (which must be because there is a left government currently in place), spending somebody else's money has never made anybody prosper (just gave him the appearance of prosperity).

All that, surely, is an argument for abolishing the whole Euro experiment altogether, not justification for extorting smaller countries out of pure desperation to keep the failed experiment tied together with bits of string and sticky tape. It's utterly absurd to believe that what's suited to the economy of Germany would work just as well in Greece. Who don't they just face it, it never could have worked.

The sad thing is that those who realise this, such as the good Mr. F of the UK Independence Party (UKIP), have so successfully been marginalised as nutters who are driven by jingoism and xenophobia. The Eu has a very effective propaganda machine; pity the rest of it couldn't work so efficiently.

Edited by Norbert the Incredible
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Befor ethe cirsis 12,8 percent of Greece`s BIP was spent on pension after teh crises teh BIP declined so the figuers went up. The average is 720 euros pension, the average age for men to retire is 64,4 and for women 64,5 according to teh EU comission . By OECD statistic a Greek citizen wokrs fulltime/partiem 2037 hours a year, second highest figuer in OECD. The deficit was 15,6 percent 2009 and last year they decreased it by 2,5 percent (saving) 2012 726.000 worked in public sector 2015 it were 651.000. It is just propaganda you are talking about.

What Greece reports to the EU and what actually happens in Greece may not necessarily coincide. The reason for that is the money the EU regularly gave to Greece was dependent on Greece 'aligning the factors in it's economy more closely of the EU average', compared to how those factors were prior to the advent of the eurozone.

You might want to be careful when you make accusations of falling for propaganda, especially if you may be unwittingly be a victim of that yourself.

Edited by Leonardo
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Well, once again, that shows what a nonsense the whole idea is. "'aligning the factors in its economy more closely of the EU average'"? That the Founding Fathers could have imagined that it was possible for such dissimilar economies to be aligned to some imaginary average shows just how out of touch they were.

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actually no country is alligned, even small countries for exampel Austria have very different regions with different economic output, just recently carinthia went bankrupt. Your agrument is not really valid, but it has to be takin into consideration, right now the EU financial politics has only one goal in europe and that is cuting alls social welfare, decreasing taxes for enterprises and raising taxes for the poor and middle class. Also privitizing everything and switching powers away from the people.

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Well, once again, that shows what a nonsense the whole idea is. "'aligning the factors in its economy more closely of the EU average'"? That the Founding Fathers could have imagined that it was possible for such dissimilar economies to be aligned to some imaginary average shows just how out of touch they were.

The same thing occurs within nation-states, Norbert. All we are considering here is that it occurs on a larger scale.

There is nothing that the EU does that it's member nations do not practice as internal policies with respect any 'counties', or whatever term for such regions are used, that constitute it.

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actually no country is alligned, even small countries for exampel Austria have very different regions with different economic output, just recently carinthia went bankrupt. Your agrument is not really valid, but it has to be takin into consideration, right now the EU financial politics has only one goal in europe and that is cuting alls social welfare, decreasing taxes for enterprises and raising taxes for the poor and middle class. Also privitizing everything and switching powers away from the people.

Not quite, the goal of the EU right now is to force governments no more than they get in revenues (3.5% deficit is allowed as an exception, but constantly maxed out or surpassed). And that makes sense because else Europe could end up just printing money to satisfy the gullibility of its creditors (see the USA as bad example). How governments do save that money is up to them (nobody tells them to save on this or that). If your government decided to save on education or social welfare it just denotes what kind of lunatics you have voted in because there are many pork barrels the money could be taken out of... everywhere.

Edited by questionmark
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nope the creditors demanded specific measures from greece. xd

Yes, because they want a Credit, and that credit way exceeds those 3.5% (in fact it is more like 3500%). If Greece would not need everybody's money to survive (and every year more of it despite the interest rates of the ECB being at an historic low) nobody would dictate anything. Greece has to show the will and ability to get out of the hole, else the whole bailout program is for nothing and all would just have to shovel some of the money they could use at home in that direction. And so far the current government has not shown that will, quite to the contrary, they increased the budget despite the knowledge that they could not even afford the lower previous one alluding to election promises".

And that is what the whole left wing does not seem to understand.

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The same thing occurs within nation-states, Norbert. All we are considering here is that it occurs on a larger scale.

There is nothing that the EU does that it's member nations do not practice as internal policies with respect any 'counties', or whatever term for such regions are used, that constitute it.

except we do get a say in who's PM, and no one got to say that they wanted Jean-Claude Junker or whatever his name is as Supreme Overlord.
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except we do get a say in who's PM, and no one got to say that they wanted Jean-Claude Junker or whatever his name is as Supreme Overlord.

In Britain nobody did because your PM left the party likely to win the elections. In the rest of Europe Junkers was on the billboard on the EPP posters ...go figure...

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In Britain nobody did because your PM left the party likely to win the elections. In the rest of Europe Junkers was on the billboard on the EPP posters ...go figure...

juncker can`t pass laws he only can say yes to a law with the commission drafted with the consent of the council. No Greece didn't vote for a conservative party, above all not for the CSU.

@qestionmark

first you said the EU doesn't dictate ,now you say they do, so the fact is they do demand certain measures, which neither benefit the Greek people nor Greece economically. As I wrote before Greek cut the public sector fired over 100000 people they saved money ; 2,5 %, cut welfare. I think you can see quite well that they try to reform their country economically. Also it is not Greeks fault alone it is partly the fault that she is part of the EU ffs, it is not so hard to understand. So why the **** should more people get fired, should healthcare and pensions cut even more. Either they give them another credit or not, binding the credit to measures which are economically questionable and probably more ideological driven than anything else, just shows that teh Eu has become the chessboard of hyper-capitalist parties like the CSU.

EDIT: it seems that the party in Greece is not amused and rebel against the concessions Tsipras made.

Edited by hellwyr
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juncker can`t pass laws he only can say yes to a law with the commission drafted with the consent of the council. No Greece didn't vote for a conservative party, above all not for the CSU.

@qestionmark

first you said the EU doesn't dictate ,now you say they do, so the fact is they do demand certain measures, which neither benefit the Greek people nor Greece economically. As I wrote before Greek cut the public sector fired over 100000 people they saved money ; 2,5 %, cut welfare. I think you can see quite well that they try to reform their country economically. Also it is not Greeks fault alone it is partly the fault that she is part of the EU ffs, it is not so hard to understand. So why the **** should more people get fired, should healthcare and pensions cut even more. Either they give them another credit or not, binding the credit to measures which are economically questionable and probably more ideological driven than anything else, just shows that teh Eu has become the chessboard of hyper-capitalist parties like the CSU.

EDIT: it seems that the party in Greece is not amused and rebel against the concessions Tsipras made.

Just because I live with my wife does not mean that I can promise my kids something she's got. And that is precisely what Greece did. They don't have the money to let people to go on pension with 50 (in fact never had it). I'll give you this much: If Greece would have never joined the EU nobody would have given it a credit to enable that either.

Now the EU says that they are not willing to pay for people going on pension with 50. And as long as Greece does not change that they will not give it a bigger credit every year so they can. What the hell is wrong with that?

If you find nothing wrong with that please give me your bank account and I'll promise my kids a golden Rolex each.

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