Anti-austerity coalition government in Greece

[questionmark]

I am thinking clever move. The EU will take at least 3 months to decide if this is acceptable.

I don't see that as clever. Until the referendum that he called is done nobody will discuss anything with him as he took away his mandate to negotiate by calling it. It looks much more like an amateur in panic.

Edited June 30, 2015 by questionmark

[stevewinn]

I am thinking clever move. The EU will take at least 3 months to decide if this is acceptable.

It seems the EU deal, the original deal on the table was for austerity for 30 'odd years. the Greeks are playing for a better deal, a deal will be reached they are indebted to the EU. their EU masters have them by the short n' curlys so Greece as no choice, without the EU they cannot even pay the IMF. or World Bank.

Greece should put the cat amongst the pigeons and apply to that new Chinese led bank the AIIB.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Infrastructure_Investment_Bank

[Space Commander Travis]

It stands for Shake My Head. Some of the stuff that gets posted here just defies belief.

Like the suggestion that the West had nothing at all to do with the "uprising" in Ukraine, you mean? Yes, I agree there.

[Mr.United_Nations]

Russia is not helping greece, guess to expensive

[Leonardo]

I don't see that as clever. Until the referendum that he called is done nobody will discuss anything with him as he took away his mandate to negotiate by calling it. It looks much more like an amateur in panic.

I suspect Mr Tsipras (or those advising him in Syriza) believes he is much cleverer than he is, and naturally much cleverer than those he is jousting with. He (they) obviously never read Sun Tzu or anything by Machiavelli.

[questionmark]

Russia is not helping greece, guess to expensive

Russia has its own economic problems because Putin shot his own foot by counter-embargoing the West. They are hardly in a position to help themselves. On top of that, the only viable export he still has, gas and oil, are trading on a 10 year low, which is not helpful either.

[questionmark]

I suspect Mr Tsipras (or those advising him in Syriza) believes he is much cleverer than he is, and naturally much cleverer than those he is jousting with. He (they) obviously never read Sun Tzu or anything by Machiavelli.

The worst about them is not that they get their nightly prayers out of "Das Kapital" but that none of the whole gang ever had an elective office (if we exclude Mr. Tsipras former position as Student-organization chairperson) nor any other position in any type of government. On top of all they are even unwilling to learn.

Edited July 1, 2015 by questionmark

[Phaeton80]

I support Greece's position, F* the Trojka. With friends like these, who in the h* needs enemies. I expect the EU will use the Grexit scenario as a basis to tighten the noose for the rest, a complete monetary union with a single treasury. Complete centralised control.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Phaeton80

[skookum]

The Greek Government is now ****ed. Although the Greek people can't handle the cuts they don't believe they can survive without EU subsidies. I have in laws peasant farming near Patra that couldn't survive without milk subsidies even though they produce virtually nothing and keep their livestock in a way that would be an RSPCA scandal in the UK.

They will Vote to stay in the EU.

[stevewinn]

I support Greece's position, F* the Trojka. With friends like these, who in the h* needs enemies. I expect the EU will use the Grexit scenario as a basis to tighten the noose for the rest, a complete monetary union with a single treasury. Complete centralised control...................

A European Union Federation, an ideology that needs to be fought against every step of the way.

There are Multinational companies whose "GDP" is larger than Greece's. The EU will not allow Greece to leave, the ideology - the project comes before anything else. nothing gets in the way, not even referendums and that includes people. If they allow Greece to leave that undermines the whole EU project and raises concerns and question over its future. The whole EU ideology is outdated. Custom Union, protectionism for EU domestic markets/trade, uncompetitive French Farmers etc....

[Space Commander Travis]

So have they Grexited yet? I'm getting thoroughly bored with this

[Leonardo]

I support Greece's position, F* the Trojka. With friends like these, who in the h* needs enemies. I expect the EU will use the Grexit scenario as a basis to tighten the noose for the rest, a complete monetary union with a single treasury. Complete centralised control.

You mean just like any country - just on a larger scale?

People are so irrationally terrified of "big". I expect it was the same for the tribes of ancient Britain when the first unification was taking place, and they probably said much as you said. And the same goes for every single nation on the planet. Yet look at now.

People adjust, even if you, individually, don't want to.

[Space Commander Travis]

Actually I'd be all in favour of one world government, but it would first need to break away from the current notions of currency and the economic structures that people currently believe the world depends on. And above all, the capitalist system that's the real reason for nearly all military aggression undertaken by the "West".

Edited July 1, 2015 by Norbert the Incredible

[Leonardo]

Actually I'd be all in favour of one world government, but it would first need to break away from the current notions of currency and the economic structures that people currently believe the world depends on. And above all, the capitalist system that's the real reason for nearly all military aggression undertaken by the "West".

The issues of "bigger govt" are real, such as the possibilities for greater corruption, etc - but all these exist in any form of govt at any scale. The EU isn't a bad idea, and I accept there are problems that do need to be worked out.

[Phaeton80]

You mean just like any country - just on a larger scale?

People are so irrationally terrified of "big". I expect it was the same for the tribes of ancient Britain when the first unification was taking place, and they probably said much as you said. And the same goes for every single nation on the planet. Yet look at now.

People adjust, even if you, individually, don't want to.

There is nothing irrational about opposing the idea that 'centralization of control is always better'. For the very simple reason people/'elitists' in Brussel do not know (or care) what the Dutch people want and or need, let alone those in, say, Greece.. We wont be standing in front of their houses any time soon. This isnt the case with those seated in The Hague, let alone the local town hall. Big difference on what basis decisions are made, because the more decentralised control / power is, the more direct they will suffer the consequences when governing in favor of.. 'not the people'.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Phaeton80

[questionmark]

There is nothing irrational about opposing the idea that 'centralization of control is always better'. For the very simple reason people/'elitists' in Brussel do not know (or care) what the Dutch people want and or need, let alone those in, say, Greece.. We wont be standing in front of their houses any time soon. This isnt the case with those seated in The Hague, let alone the local town hall. Big difference on what basis decisions are made, because the more decentralised control / power is, the more direct they will suffer the consequences when governing in favor of.. 'not the people'.

you can claim exactly the same about the politicians sitting in the Hague or Athens, they cook their soup and if you don't kick them out every now and then they end up pulling a Papaandreou on you... and that calls amateurs like Tsipras who finally let the cart roll off the hill.

[Phaeton80]

you can claim exactly the same about the politicians sitting in the Hague or Athens, they cook their soup and if you don't kick them out every now and then they end up pulling a Papaandreou on you... and that calls amateurs like Tsipras who finally let the cart roll off the hill.

In case of Greece, one of the main reasons theyre in this mess is because they were bound to the Euro, could not react to the situation by way of devaluation. Meaning, one cannot react locally to what is needed; resort to 'one size fits all' policy. This is undesirable. And sure, national governments are currupt as well.. But I hardly think moving towards more centralisation of control is the answer here. Quite the opposite.

[Leonardo]

There is nothing irrational about opposing the idea that 'centralization of control is always better'. For the very simple reason people/'elitists' in Brussel do not know (or care) what the Dutch people want and or need, let alone those in, say, Greece.. We wont be standing in front of their houses any time soon. This isnt the case with those seated in The Hague, let alone the local town hall. Big difference on what basis decisions are made, because the more decentralised control / power is, the more direct they will suffer the consequences when governing in favor of.. 'not the people'.

You know, it's funny that in Britain parliament is located in the south, in London, and probably the most often heard criticism of parliament by British people is from those who live in the north saying "those elitists in London do not know, or care, what we (the Northerners) want, or need."

You see, it happens at every level/scale of authority. You want, selfishly, for any authority to be focused only on your wants, your needs.

All you are actually arguing for is the ever-increasing Balkanisation (fragmentation) of society, which will result in massive conflict (each conflict will be smaller, but there will be vastly more of them) and the setting back of social evolution by at least decades, if not centuries.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Leonardo

[questionmark]

In case of Greece, one of the main reasons theyre in this mess is because they were bound to the Euro, could not react to the situation by way of devaluation. Meaning, one cannot react locally to what is needed; resort to 'one size fits all' policy. This is undesirable. And sure, national governments are currupt as well.. But I hardly think moving towards more centralisation of control is the answer here. Quite the opposite.

Tell that to those trying to build up an industry in Greece, they will tell you that they never could plan, never could invest in future expansions because they never knew what their rubber money would be worth the next month. Greece cannot just live off tourism and agriculture, both are too small to compete and there is no place to expand. The only possibility is an industrialization to avoid that 2/3 of the Greeks have to earn their money away from Greece. What industrialization needs is a stable currency and a competent government. Greece had the first with the introduction of the Euro and the latter not since 1832.

[Space Commander Travis]

Well, exactly. Who's really to blame here? Did greece extort the EU to force them to allow them to join the Eruo? Or were they conned into signing up by the EU sweettalking them into signing up, and the EU eagerly signed them up without even checking their creditworthiness first? Even if Greece has spent irresponsibly, isn't the EU even more irresponsible or negligent for allowing them to do so in the first place?

[questionmark]

Well, exactly. Who's really to blame here? Did greece extort the EU to force them to allow them to join the Eruo? Or were they conned into signing up by the EU sweettalking them into signing up, and the EU eagerly signed them up without even checking their creditworthiness first? Even if Greece has spent irresponsibly, isn't the EU even more irresponsible or negligent for allowing them to do so in the first place?

Europe never questioned the self reported statistics of any member (including those doctored in Britain) until the discovery of Greek statistics. Was that reckless? Yes it was. But presenting false statistics to gain undeserved access to anything is called fraud. That is criminal.

[Leonardo]

Well, exactly. Who's really to blame here? Did greece extort the EU to force them to allow them to join the Eruo? Or were they conned into signing up by the EU sweettalking them into signing up, and the EU eagerly signed them up without even checking their creditworthiness first? Even if Greece has spent irresponsibly, isn't the EU even more irresponsible or negligent for allowing them to do so in the first place?

The EU, contrary to a lot of beliefs, is not a dictatorial organisation. It doesn't "command" it's member nations as to what they must do with the money they may receive from central coffers. Okay, there is an expectation that member nations will act, and invest, responsibly - but Greece didn't. We can't hold the EU to blame for that, only the Greek govts and the people also somewhat for letting the govt get away with not looking after the country.

[Space Commander Travis]

Europe never questioned the self reported statistics of any member (including those doctored in Britain) until the discovery of Greek statistics. Was that reckless? Yes it was. But presenting false statistics to gain undeserved access to anything is called fraud. That is criminal.

The EU, contrary to a lot of beliefs, is not a dictatorial organisation. It doesn't "command" it's member nations as to what they must do with the money they may receive from central coffers. Okay, there is an expectation that member nations will act, and invest, responsibly - but Greece didn't. We can't hold the EU to blame for that, only the Greek govts and the people also somewhat for letting the govt get away with not looking after the country.

yes we can, we can blame the EU for acting like loan sharks and giving them all that lovely money in the first place. It's the ones that gave them it to blame, not the ones that it was given to.

[questionmark]

yes we can, we can blame the EU for acting like loan sharks and giving them all that lovely money in the first place. It's the ones that gave them it to blame, not the ones that it was given to.

You mean that next time it is the choice between rescue package and Care Package they should go for Care Package? Hope Britain never runs into trouble, they might heed you.

And no, they did not get the money that got them into trouble from the EU, they got that money from the Royal Bank of Scotland, UBS, Merrill Lynch, Deutsche Bank... just to mention the biggest. Because at the time they went bust they owed the EU hardly a penny.

Edited July 2, 2015 by questionmark

[stevewinn]

Europe never questioned the self reported statistics of any member (including those doctored in Britain) until the discovery of Greek statistics. Was that reckless? Yes it was. But presenting false statistics to gain undeserved access to anything is called fraud. That is criminal.

The EU knew full well Greece had cooked the books and turned a blind eye. after all the Euro was to bring stability and growth. why would they need to worry. what could possibly go wrong. that was the mindset at the time. - just get those rose tinted glasses off Questionmark.