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Anti-austerity coalition government in Greece


keithisco
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The EU knew full well Greece had cooked the books and turned a blind eye. after all the Euro was to bring stability and growth. why would they need to worry. what could possibly go wrong. that was the mindset at the time. - just get those rose tinted glasses off Questionmark.

Plus, the EU member states know full well Goldman Sachs played a central role in helping Greece camouflage their national debt. So much so that without GS, they probably wouldnt even have tried - let alone succeed. Yet, GS is still one of - if not the most prominent financial advisors for those same states.

Absolutely nothing has changed, they have been messing about in the margin.. windowdressing.. PR.. but the fundamentals remain untouched. Which would imply a considerable level of 'influence' over different political bodies. WIth the present course, it is only a matter of time until it happens again.

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The EU knew full well Greece had cooked the books and turned a blind eye. after all the Euro was to bring stability and growth. why would they need to worry. what could possibly go wrong. that was the mindset at the time. - just get those rose tinted glasses off Questionmark.

No one shoveled €'s up into Greece behind. As to "EU knew full well", can you give some proof? Not just posterior assessment.
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No one shoveled €'s up into Greece behind. As to "EU knew full well", can you give some proof? Not just posterior assessment.

So did the Greeks steal the money off the EU, or did the EU offer it to them? If they offered it, it was up to them to check their creditworthiness. It's utter incompetence on the EU's part, and the sooner the European Central bank and the Euro fail the better, with financial management this incompetent.
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What people who are defending the EU are doing, basically, is attacking Greece for accepting money that the EU was falling over itself to offer them. Would you have had the willpower to resist that? How long would the then Greek govt. had lasted if the people had seen that they were refusing these container ships full of money that the EU was offering?

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No one shoveled ¤'s up into Greece behind. As to "EU knew full well", can you give some proof? Not just posterior assessment.

You know it wouldn't have killed you to google your own question for an answer...

http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-676634.html#spRedirectedFrom=www&referrrer=

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/business/global/14debt.html?pagewanted=all&referrer=&_r=0

Edited by Harry_Dresden
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So did the Greeks steal the money off the EU, or did the EU offer it to them? [...]

Beg your pardon? Again, no one shoved $#!t load of €s <you know where>. Can you make distinction between offer and coercion?
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Beg your pardon? Again, no one shoved $#!t load of €s <you know where>. Can you make distinction between offer and coercion?

Oh come on, so you're saying that the EU didn't know about the economic position in Greece when they made the offer? I don't believe that, and if they did offer them all that money knowing full well that Greece would never be able to pay it back, and there was no way they could possibly refuse, that's little short of criminal. That is coercion, they knew that the Greek govt. couldn't refuse, they were desperate for money, and that's the way that loan sharks and the Mafia work. Find some vulnerable sap, make them an offer they couldn't refuse, and then they've got them wrapped round their finger so they'll do whatever they want them to. That's pure extortion.
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Oh come on, so you're saying that the EU didn't know about the economic position in Greece when they made the offer? [...]

As EU bureaucrats claim, all was fair and square... Heh, try to oppose, I dare you...

[...]I don't believe that, [...]

Praise god you don't believe in something... wait ... kinda stupid... Nevermind...

[...]and if they did offer them all that money knowing full well that Greece would never be able to pay it back, and there was no way they could possibly refuse, that's little short of criminal. That is coercion, they knew that the Greek govt. couldn't refuse, they were desperate for money, and that's the way that loan sharks and the Mafia work. Find some vulnerable sap, make them an offer they couldn't refuse, and then they've got them wrapped round their finger so they'll do whatever they want them to. That's pure extortion.

Oh boy... Blame Greeks - thats their government fault... And don't you dare bring mafia ... We (mafia) are after you...
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No one shoveled €'s up into Greece behind. As to "EU knew full well", can you give some proof? Not just posterior assessment.

You highlight the incompetency of the EU if you believe the EU never knew the true state of the Greek economy that's a hell of a statement to make if you truly think they were duped by Greece, with the fullness of time the experts of the day are on the record stating the Greek economy was never suited to the Eurozone and never met the criteria.

The fact is we dont have to google anything. because we only have to look back at the Greek crisis today and its clear the EU failed in its process of Euro membership. but then again this is the same EU that hasn't had its accounts signed off for consecutive years - and when they do sign them, its with billion dollar blackholes in the budget, they pull stunts that if a private corporation / company pulled they'd be locked up in jail. So, should we really be surprised. at the incompetency. NO is the answer.

a BBC NEWS piece from 2001 when Greece joined the Euro currency.

Greece has become the twelfth country to join the European single currency, ditching its own currency, the drachma. The Greek Finance Minister, Ioannis Papandoniou, described it has an historic day that would place Greece firmly at the heart of Europe.

But the president of the European Central Bank, Wim Duisenberg, warned that Greece still had a lot of work to do to improve its economy and bring inflation under control.

In 1999, Greece was left out of the eurozone for failing to meet the EU's economic criteria.

To qualify for euro membership, the Greek Government had to adopt a tough austerity programme, making deep cuts in public spending.

Popular move

Despite the budget cuts, euro membership is hugely popular in Greece, with polls suggesting that nearly two-thirds of the population are in favour of the move.

In a televised New Year message, Prime Minister Costas Simitis said Greece "is already experiencing euro conditions".

"We all know that our inclusion in EMU (European Monetary Union) ensures for us greater stability and opens up new horizons," he said.

The eurozone now consists of Austria, Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal and Spain.

Denmark, Sweden and the United Kingdom are the only European Union members outside the eurozone.

The monetary union is deeply unpopular with voters in all three countries.

Investors worried

Some investors have said they are worried the decision to allow Greece to join the euro will send out the wrong signal to financial markets - suggesting that in future other, weaker economies may be allowed in without complying fully with membership conditions.

Greece has one of the highest inflation rates in Europe. Public sector borrowing is also much higher than would be permitted normally under the EU rules governing entry to the project.

Economic impact

For the eurozone as a whole, Greek membership will not make a huge difference.

The eurozone will encompass another 10.6m inhabitants, turning it into a currency zone for 302m people. Its gross domestic product will grow by just 2%.

Politically, though, it sends an important signal to the 12 countries queuing to join the EU.

They have seen the tough decisions they have to make in order to qualify for EU and euro membership. At the same time, it shows that the EU decision makers can be somewhat lenient towards aspiring euro countries.

Eurostat was also criticised for failing to raise the alarm about the quality of Greece's budget data.

So far, no-one has been officially blamed for what amounts to the EU's most serious statistical embarrassment since the launch of the single currency.

The Commission said the agency had shown a "lack of awareness to bring the problem to the right public level instead of having a closed discussion between statisticians".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1095783.stm

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This is a great article.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-33329624

In stark contrast to the rest of Greece, no-one in the village is unemployed.

"Most of the villagers will be voting 'yes' on Sunday," Dimitris tells me over lunch in Anavra's cosy taverna - and it's not hard to see why.

Walk around Anavra today, and you will encounter a modern school, a library, a gym, football and basketball pitches, a handful of cafes, a resplendent church, and even a museum.

The roads are paved, and most Anavrans drive pick-up trucks, not donkeys.

Residents also enjoy satellite TV and high-speed internet, and as Dimitris is keen to emphasise, "young people stay here".

Wow, this sounds good, why is this part of Greece so profitable?

He quickly realised that many EU development programmes were environmentally focused, and in order to qualify, he encouraged Anavra's farmers to go organic, and to embrace clean energy sources.

An EU-subsidised wind farm followed, as well as EU-subsidised roads, stables, telephone lines and even an environmental park.

No wonder a 'Yes' vote is a certainty.

Edited by skookum
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As EU bureaucrats claim, all was fair and square... Heh, try to oppose, I dare you...

Yup, we can all trust EU bureaucrats can't we. :rolleyes:
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Damned if Greece votes NO and damned if she doesn't. BUT one thing is certain that by bringing this to a head with the referendum any deal or outcome will be inffinatly better than the current German controlled chock-hold.

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What people who are defending the EU are doing, basically, is attacking Greece for accepting money that the EU was falling over itself to offer them. Would you have had the willpower to resist that? How long would the then Greek govt. had lasted if the people had seen that they were refusing these container ships full of money that the EU was offering?

When someone is offering such money Greece should have also thought what's the catch, but they didn't probably Greek people just prolonged their lifestyle on someone else money. Greece should have been cautious with the money they received and should have read the fine print before inking the deal.

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When someone is offering such money Greece should have also thought what's the catch, but they didn't probably Greek people just prolonged their lifestyle on someone else money. Greece should have been cautious with the money they received and should have read the fine print before inking the deal.

Trouble is when they first bailed Greece out the EU did so allowing Greece to rack up more debt, and for every subsequent bailout packed thereafter the debt as been allowed to grow, and grow and grow until its reached a point now where Greece is unable to pay, and in the process 30% of her economy is destroyed. Its total mismanagement by the EU, Just let us think for a second. these bailouts and EU forced Austerity plans have caused 30% of the economy to disappear, making it impossible for Greece to pay the loans without borrowing to do so.

Before someone says, the EU forced austerity never destroyed the economy, Yes it did because the EU enforced cuts where too much too soon and in to short of a short frame. With 30% of the Greek economy destroyed how the hell did anyone expect them to keep with the EU's plan, their driving Greece into the dirty. when do you call a halt to the EU's failed bailout package, when 40%, 60% or maybe even 70% of the Greek economy is destroyed.

The loan repayments should have been spread over 50 years or 70 years. and as the Greek economy starts growing over that time frame they'd be better placed to make repayments along with social and pension reforms.

After World War 2 the United Kingdoms economy was destroyed to a level of 25% a little bit smaller than Greece's today. yet our war time loans including lend lease from America was spread over 50 years. infact we paid our last repayment to America in 2006. in 1976 We had to borrow money from the IMF. £2.5 Billion. a small sum, even though we never used the full credit limit the repayment was spread over 15 years. we paid it back in Three years.

So the Question is why are / is the EU/Germany forcing the Greeks to repay the loans over only 39 years. why not longer?

Here's a Break down of the repayments for Greece and when there due. and who to pay. seven pages. the figures are unbelievable.

http://graphics.wsj....-debt-timeline/

Edited by stevewinn
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So the Question is why are / is the EU/Germany forcing the Greeks to repay the loans over only 39 years. why not longer?

Because the last time they were lenient on Greece getting its house in order (2010) Greece managed to double its debt by collecting from private investors.

Burned kid fears fire.

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Because the last time they were lenient on Greece getting its house in order (2010) Greece managed to double its debt by collecting from private investors.

Burned kid fears fire.

Because the last time they were lenient on Greece getting its house in order (2010) Greece managed to double its debt by collecting from private investors.

Burned kid fears fire.

im not surprised with the rates the European Central Bank charging them 6.10%. to 6.50% The European Investment Bank 3.7% 4.8% - is Greece part of the European Union and Eurozone? it would make you think the way they are getting fleeced by the rates these institutions have imposed - The IMF and other investors outside the EU are only charging 1.5%. IMF and private no more than 2%. :blink:

Edited by stevewinn
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You highlight the incompetency of the EU if you believe the EU never knew the true state of the Greek economy that's a hell of a statement to make if you truly think they were duped by Greece, with the fullness of time the experts of the day are on the record stating the Greek economy was never suited to the Eurozone and never met the criteria.

The fact is we dont have to google anything. because we only have to look back at the Greek crisis today and its clear the EU failed in its process of Euro membership. but then again this is the same EU that hasn't had its accounts signed off for consecutive years - and when they do sign them, its with billion dollar blackholes in the budget, they pull stunts that if a private corporation / company pulled they'd be locked up in jail. So, should we really be surprised. at the incompetency. NO is the answer.

[...]

I'd put blame on gross negligence, and, at some extent, corruption.

You, probably, have heard about Farmville scam. Well, Greeks cooking their data are on the same page as Romanian scammers.

[...]

a BBC NEWS piece from 2001 when Greece joined the Euro currency.

OK, thanks.
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Yup, we can all trust EU bureaucrats can't we. :rolleyes:

As any other primate, who call himself a human. :innocent: Edited by bmk1245
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im not surprised with the rates the European Central Bank charging them 6.10%. to 6.50% The European Investment Bank 3.7% 4.8% - is Greece part of the European Union and Eurozone? it would make you think the way they are getting fleeced by the rates these institutions have imposed - The IMF and other investors outside the EU are only charging 1.5%. IMF and private no more than 2%. :blink:

And, in two years by just the interest from the ECB and EIB they managed to double their debts? Or could it be that you put on the wrong glasses this morning?

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And, in two years by just the interest from the ECB and EIB they managed to double their debts? Or could it be that you put on the wrong glasses this morning?

Hang on a minute, in your reply you finished by saying and i quote - "Greece managed to double its debt by collecting from private investors" I went off and note these private investors are charging no more than 2% rate. - Going by your statement of "Greece managed to double its debt by collecting from private investors" WAS it not you who said the private investors doubled the debt. my reply to that was, well, if the private investors doubled their debt what's the higher interest rate of the ECB & EIB doing whose rates are double and three times the rate of the private investors.

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Hang on a minute, in your reply you finished by saying and i quote - "Greece managed to double its debt by collecting from private investors" I went off and note these private investors are charging no more than 2% rate. - Going by your statement of "Greece managed to double its debt by collecting from private investors" WAS it not you who said the private investors doubled the debt. my reply to that was, well, if the private investors doubled their debt what's the higher interest rate of the ECB & EIB doing whose rates are double and three times the rate of the private investors.

Well, those debt from private investors were auctioned at rates of up to 25% yield (no matter what the nominal interest), until last Saturday the 10yr Greek bond yield was at 14.5%..., that sure beats the current ECB and EIB rates. Now don't go off buying any of those now... the chances of seeing your money back in the next 50 years are pretty slim....

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So have they resigned yet, or are they still stringing this out interminably?

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So have they resigned yet, or are they still stringing this out interminably?

The Greek parliament won't resign unless the vote is emphatically "Yes". It really is pathetic how cowardly this action of bringing a referendum in, is. Syriza was elected on an anti-austerity platform so had the mandate to exit Greece from the euro if that's how "anti-austerity" could be achieved. Instead they placed the responsibility for making the decision on the Greek people and so, no matter what happens after the referendum the Syriza MP's can point at the public vote and say "we had no choice, we were only following what the voters wanted."

It's despicable behaviour by weak, self-interested politicians.

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Well, those debt from private investors were auctioned at rates of up to 25% yield (no matter what the nominal interest), until last Saturday the 10yr Greek bond yield was at 14.5%..., that sure beats the current ECB and EIB rates. Now don't go off buying any of those now... the chances of seeing your money back in the next 50 years are pretty slim....

Now your talking about Bonds, how is that relating to Bailout money.

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