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Raptor Witness

Israel's Nuclear Program - The Hard Evidence

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Raptor Witness

I'll start off with a documentary that was published by the BBC, I believe in 2012.

It's certainly true that they have nuclear weapons, and the fact that they've reportedly developed neutron weapons is an indication of how advanced their program has become. Recall that neutron weapons kill people buy leave buildings largely intact.

The double standard for how to deal with Iran on this issue is unsupportable longer term, and the reports that Israel may have had repeated accidents is just as scary as the weapons themselves.

*snip*

Edited by Saru
Video removed due to copyright

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Likely Guy

I'll start off with a documentary that was published by the BBC, I believe in 2012.

It's certainly true that they have nuclear weapons, and the fact that they've reportedly developed neutron weapons is an indication of how advanced their program has become. Recall that neutron weapons kill people buy leave buildings largely intact.

The double standard for how to deal with Iran on this issue is unsupportable longer term, and the reports that Israel may have had repeated accidents is just as scary as the weapons themselves.

My bolding.

Verification needed. Hardly 'hard evidence'.

Edited by Likely Guy

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and then

Israel has had nukes for about 50 years. They have never threatened to annihilate anyone in all that time. They have been responsible stewards of a defensive weapons system. To equate Iran's nuke quest with Israel's is insupportable save on a rather childish point of "fairness". When Iran assembles their nuke they will become MUCH bolder with their use of non state actors to intimidate their neighbors. The world is going to be a MUCH more dangerous place.

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MordorOrc

Israel having nuclear weapons is pretty much like the reports that Syria had a massive chemical weapons stockpile or the existence of Area 51. It's one of the worst kept state secrets around.

However, like Area 51, we really don't know the details of Israel's nuclear program. A lack of below or above ground tests (the Vela Incident is still debatable) likely leads me to believe that they have rather low yield warheads and their refusal to publicly acknowledge them just increases the uncertainty over what Israel is actually capable of.

Of course, verification, as always, is necessary and given the secretive nature of the Israeli state, I wouldn't expect any revelations in the future. Also, Israel did not sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which means that it's extremely difficult to get it to conform to any international law. However, it's not like Israel goes around handing nuclear material to various states.

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kartikg

Sooner or later every country with decent scientific knowledge and enough resources is going to have nuclear weapons. I would like to see how west will react when a country which is never in headlines announces them.

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FLOMBIE

Sooner or later every country with decent scientific knowledge and enough resources is going to have nuclear weapons. I would like to see how west will react when a country which is never in headlines announces them.

This is a faux statement. There are many countries with the capabilities of building nuclear weapons but didn't.

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Sir Smoke aLot

America have nukes, fine. Russia have them, that is fine too. Any other country having nukes is totally wrong and instead of deciding who is 'good' enough to have them there should have been moves made to make all other countries 'nuke free' areas.

Today, if Bosnia make one ( science fiction of course ) who has authority or legal rights to say that we should not have one? If there is someone to deny my country rights of having nukes, can you tell me reasons why?

There will never be justice in this world.

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Raptor Witness

The Iranians know that the Israelis have a nuclear program.

Why would any country want to live in fear of another state that has a weapon, which the world says "you cannot have this, also?"

The West rightly fears that this could lead to an escalation throughout the Middle East.

The Iranians are not stupid.

Why don't the Israelis come up with the bright idea, that we will disarm if you will disarm?

That option would be better, and the United States holds a far larger economic stick over Israel, than Iran.

It's a perfect example of the obvious unfairness in the region. I would actually trust the Iranians over the Israelis, because of the genocidal motivation as a result of World War II.

Israel's self-described "right to exist" is as religiously motivated as the theocratic government in Iran, and I would argue more so.

If the people of United States knew that allowing Israel to keep their nuclear weapons would eventually lead to a nuclear detonation in this region, do you think that they would allow the Israelis to keep those weapons?

I would hope that most Americans would say, "no."

It is believed that South Africa gave Israel most of the nuclear material it has and it's arsenal, in exchange for the technology to develop its own program.

However, South Africa agreed to give up its nuclear weapons in 1989 voluntarily.

Since it was the French who gave Israel its first nuclear reactor, why not allow Israel to join the NATO alliance in exchange for their removing nuclear weapons from their soil?

Surely, that's the most common sense approach to this problem. Then we could force Iran to stop their program with some credibility.

I have a feeling, however, that this will never happen because someone, likely Christian conservatives, believe that the destiny of Israel is to actually use those weapons.

Fortunately, for these Christians, we now have ISIS on the scene, who will happily fulfill their wishes, I guarantee it.

This hoard from hell believes that it's their destiny to end of the world too, so they are a perfect match for the Christians in the West who have these same, not so secret wishes.

I would argue that we should start rescuing ourselves first, then humanism might validate itself as a worthy religion.

Edited by Raptor Witness
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America have nukes, fine. Russia have them, that is fine too. Any other country having nukes is totally wrong and instead of deciding who is 'good' enough to have them there should have been moves made to make all other countries 'nuke free' areas.

Today, if Bosnia make one ( science fiction of course ) who has authority or legal rights to say that we should not have one? If there is someone to deny my country rights of having nukes, can you tell me reasons why?

There will never be justice in this world.

I'm not sure that justice is the issue here SSA. The issue seems to be security for the world. These weapons are so devastating that they have the power to cause massive displacements that can even change the world order. The NPT was designed so that countries could safely use this energy source without the world having to fear yet another source of disaster. I believe the difference that sets Iran aside here is it's rhetoric of hate and it's acts of terror (through proxies) around the globe. Many people think of Iran's hatred for Israel as a problem only Israel need be concerned over but considering the war that would ensue (with nukes) I believe we all have a stake in this. Closer to your point: Imagine that any one of the Balkan nations possessed nukes in the run up to WWI...
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and then

The Iranians know that the Israelis have a nuclear program.

Why would any country want to live in fear of another state that has a weapon, which the world says "you cannot have this, also?"

The West rightly fears that this could lead to an escalation throughout the Middle East.

The Iranians are not stupid.

Why don't the Israelis come up with the bright idea, that we will disarm if you will disarm?

That option would be better, and the United States holds a far larger economic stick over Israel, than Iran.

It's a perfect example of the obvious unfairness in the region. I would actually trust the Iranians over the Israelis, because of the genocidal motivation as a result of World War II.

Israel's self-described "right to exist" is as religiously motivated as the theocratic government in Iran, and I would argue more so.

If the people of United States knew that allowing Israel to keep their nuclear weapons would eventually lead to a nuclear detonation in this region, do you think that they would allow the Israelis to keep those weapons?

I would hope that most Americans would say, "no."

It is believed that South Africa gave Israel most of the nuclear material it has and it's arsenal, in exchange for the technology to develop its own program.

However, South Africa agreed to give up its nuclear weapons in 1989 voluntarily.

Since it was the French who gave Israel its first nuclear reactor, why not allow Israel to join the NATO alliance in exchange for their removing nuclear weapons from their soil?

Surely, that's the most common sense approach to this problem. Then we could force Iran to stop their program with some credibility.

I have a feeling, however, that this will never happen because someone, likely Christian conservatives, believe that the destiny of Israel is to actually use those weapons.

Fortunately, for these Christians, we now have ISIS on the scene, who will happily fulfill their wishes, I guarantee it.

This hoard from hell believes that it's their destiny to end of the world too, so they are a perfect match for the Christians in the West who have these same, not so secret wishes.

I would argue that we should start rescuing ourselves first, then humanism might validate itself as a worthy religion.

Of course, being one of those conservative Christians I have to ask - when have we EVER shown ourselves capable of really "rescuing ourselves"? That isn't a taunt, it's a valid question. The attitude you display is what will lead to widespread persecution of Christians someday. Our beliefs come from a reading of scripture which the world refuses to acknowledge or believe and when those same scriptures begin to be validated we will be held accountable for causing the problems. Salem comes to mind in an odd way. Israel's nukes will play some role in that equation I guess, but they at some point will "dwell in peace" "without bars or gates" which makes me believe they will disarm due to a peace agreement, perhaps AFTER nuking one of their neighbors in war? Syria comes to mind.
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Dark_Grey

Having nuclear weapons is one thing, but coupling that with old religious beliefs about the end of the world is effing terrifying.

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Sir Smoke aLot

I'm not sure that justice is the issue here SSA. The issue seems to be security for the world. These weapons are so devastating that they have the power to cause massive displacements that can even change the world order. The NPT was designed so that countries could safely use this energy source without the world having to fear yet another source of disaster. I believe the difference that sets Iran aside here is it's rhetoric of hate and it's acts of terror (through proxies) around the globe. Many people think of Iran's hatred for Israel as a problem only Israel need be concerned over but considering the war that would ensue (with nukes) I believe we all have a stake in this. Closer to your point: Imagine that any one of the Balkan nations possessed nukes in the run up to WWI...

So Iran is just one evil country which would imidiatelly use nukes on Israel? We could say the same for anyone, except for already mentioned America and Russia. Iran is not threat to world security, no one could possibly make me believe that.

Just what happen few days ago, Iranian general killed by IDF and excuse was that IDF was thinking that it were militants? All of that happening at annexed territory which is not reckognized by anyone, except, well - Israel. Syrian government gave that land to Lebanon long ago - or to say it correctly - acknowledged Lebanon's claims over it. What did Iran do about murder of their general so far? I am sure that they have ability to fire long range missiles or even other with shorter range from Lebanon or Syria - but guess what, that aint happening.

Mr. Prime Minister told that '' attack on IDF will be revenged with full power ''. But, when did he forget that it was his own army who made mistake at first place. It is about justice man and i know how strong nukes are - that is reason why i trust only those who come out from Cold War and haven't destroyed the world - all their differences and mistakes aside - America and Russia have proof that they won't destroy the world, what can anyone other do to prove same thing?

As for Balkan nations and those times, luckily there was no nuclear power in those times and governments here were always corrupted, full of traitors - enough to sell nukes to anyone.

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spartan max2

I can care less if they do have nukes. They have never threatened to blow anyone off the face of the earth.

Unlike cough North Korea ccough. Even then I like to think that he is sane enough that he would never use one.

I would rather no one has nukes but we all know this will never happen

Edited by spartan max2
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kartikg

This is a faux statement. There are many countries with the capabilities of building nuclear weapons but didn't.

Maybe they are afraid of the sanctions I don't see any other reason.

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So Iran is just one evil country which would imidiatelly use nukes on Israel? We could say the same for anyone, except for already mentioned America and Russia. Iran is not threat to world security, no one could possibly make me believe that.

Just what happen few days ago, Iranian general killed by IDF and excuse was that IDF was thinking that it were militants? All of that happening at annexed territory which is not reckognized by anyone, except, well - Israel. Syrian government gave that land to Lebanon long ago - or to say it correctly - acknowledged Lebanon's claims over it. What did Iran do about murder of their general so far? I am sure that they have ability to fire long range missiles or even other with shorter range from Lebanon or Syria - but guess what, that aint happening.

Mr. Prime Minister told that '' attack on IDF will be revenged with full power ''. But, when did he forget that it was his own army who made mistake at first place. It is about justice man and i know how strong nukes are - that is reason why i trust only those who come out from Cold War and haven't destroyed the world - all their differences and mistakes aside - America and Russia have proof that they won't destroy the world, what can anyone other do to prove same thing?

As for Balkan nations and those times, luckily there was no nuclear power in those times and governments here were always corrupted, full of traitors - enough to sell nukes to anyone.

Well for a start Iran could stop with the hateful rhetoric. Surely you don't deny they constantly make ominous public announcements referring to Israel disappearing in one way or another? I believe Iran will get their nukes and when they do the world is going to become incredibly more unstable.
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MordorOrc

Maybe they are afraid of the sanctions I don't see any other reason.

A lack of need.

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Hammerclaw

Is there any concrete evidence that Israel has nukes, other than unverified hearsay? Is there any objective proof that it is an operative fact? Or is this a case of "everybody knows" without any documentaion?

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Raptor Witness

This is an interview that Israel's nuclear whistleblower gave after he was released from prison, where he spent 18 years behind bars for revealing the truth about their nuclear program to the western news media.

He's a traitor, but he does give us a window into their program.

* snip *

Edited by Saru
Video removed due to copyright
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MordorOrc

Is there any concrete evidence that Israel has nukes, other than unverified hearsay? Is there any objective proof that it is an operative fact? Or is this a case of "everybody knows" without any documentaion?

Sort of. We haven't actually seen anything that's indicative of an active nuclear program, such as an actual detonation. However, Israel wouldn't be able to do so without causing a great deal of commotion.

By not saying either way, it works in Israel's favor. Because no one is going to call Israel's bluff lest it turns out to be true.

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Hammerclaw

Sort of. We haven't actually seen anything that's indicative of an active nuclear program, such as an actual detonation. However, Israel wouldn't be able to do so without causing a great deal of commotion.

By not saying either way, it works in Israel's favor. Because no one is going to call Israel's bluff lest it turns out to be true.

This is just off of the top of my head, but remember, back in the 70s or early 80s mention of mysterious powerful explosions detected in the south atlantic, far from the shipping lanes. They were written off as possibly meteoric in origin.

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Is there any concrete evidence that Israel has nukes, other than unverified hearsay? Is there any objective proof that it is an operative fact? Or is this a case of "everybody knows" without any documentaion?

I vaguely recall that Nixon changed our defcon level when the Russians implied they would join the Yom Kippur War on side of the Arabs. He wasn't particularly fond of Israel so I'm guessing he had another reason. Perhaps a little bird forecast mushroom clouds if he didn't?

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Hammerclaw

I vaguely recall that Nixon changed our defcon level when the Russians implied they would join the Yom Kippur War on side of the Arabs. He wasn't particularly fond of Israel so I'm guessing he had another reason. Perhaps a little bird forecast mushroom clouds if he didn't?

Well, Israeli armored columns had crossed the Suez and cut off the Egyptian army in the southern Sinai and were headed north along the canal and were wreaking havoc in the Egyptian forces rear echelon units against token resistance. The Pyramids were on the horizon with Cairo was in striking distance. No nuclear scenario is necessary to see the peril of the situation. A little sabre rattling was necessary to dissuade the Soviets from any precipitous adventurism, and the possible consequence of having American and Soviet forces glowering at one-another across the canal. So, both sides were persuaded to make nice to each other. The Israeli military mystique of apparent invincibility never recovered from having been caught with their pants down in The Yom Kippur War. It was the first time they lost ground, permanently to Arab armed forces.
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shrooma

There are many countries with the capabilities of building nuclear weapons but didn't.

.

Japan, for instance.

they know only too well- better than anyone in fact- the horror these weapons wreak, so they made the absolutely rational decision never to develop them.

.

Maybe they are afraid of the sanctions I don't see any other reason.

.

see above.

.

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praetorian-legio XIII

Doesn't the possibility exist that we supplied Israel with nuclear weapons? Or at least provided them with the necessary components to build them. Why wouldn't we. They are our only allies in the ME. It's would be almost like we ourselves have a strong nuclear deterrent in a part of the world that is so volatile.

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Well, Israeli armored columns had crossed the Suez and cut off the Egyptian army in the southern Sinai and were headed north along the canal and were wreaking havoc in the Egyptian forces rear echelon units against token resistance. The Pyramids were on the horizon with Cairo was in striking distance. No nuclear scenario is necessary to see the peril of the situation. A little sabre rattling was necessary to dissuade the Soviets from any precipitous adventurism, and the possible consequence of having American and Soviet forces glowering at one-another across the canal. So, both sides were persuaded to make nice to each other. The Israeli military mystique of apparent invincibility never recovered from having been caught with their pants down in The Yom Kippur War. It was the first time they lost ground, permanently to Arab armed forces.

Yep, their intel people definitely screwed the pooch that time. And I seem to recall that Golda had a part in that. Probably it got down to arrogance on the part of the IDF because of how easily they'd won in '67.

You seem to believe that Israel is bluffing about it's nukes? I've never been inside Dimona so I can't say for sure ;) but unless Mordechai Vanunu is a REALLY dedicated Mossad member, I'd have to believe he spent 18 years in prison for a good reason.

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