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OverSword

Jordan Stands up to ISIS

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Astra.

ISIS doesn't care. If Jordan goes through with the executions they will have just made more martyrs for the ISIS cause.

Yes, I totally agree

ISIS would probably only release the pilot for cash and not for prisoners.

I doubt that will happen if Jordan follows the same principles as the US and Uk in regards to "hostages for money".

Turning off the tap as far as funding them goes, weakens their resolve.

My concern is, that the ISIS will start taking children as hostages, when and if they can't get their grubby hands on adult Westerners.

Nothing would surprise me with this scum.

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President Wearer of Hats

A State is only falling to the same level than those extremist murderers by doing the same thing they do. Executing prisioners without a fair trial is also against the Geneva Convention treaties. Yes, Jordan did signed Protocol II in 1979.

''In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

2.[...]''

Source: http://www1.umn.edu/...ree/y3gctpw.htm

:hmm:

"Are you a member of ISIS?"

"Yes"

"Trial over, hung at dawn. NEXT!"

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Lilly

Since ISIS is a group of serial murderers bent on the death and destruction of everyone not capitulating to their agenda, any trial should result in their demise IMO.

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NewAge1
Since ISIS is a group of serial murderers bent on the death and destruction of everyone not capitulating to their agenda, any trial should result in their demise IMO.

I am not a believer in the rethoric for death penalty, but even if a State so chooses to allow it within it's law, the defendants must be able to make their case in front of a court and judged without bias. That's what we call a fair trial. Hanging ISIS detainees on a whim because the terrorist group shamelessly commited such crime on an Jordan military man, who knew the risk of his mission, does not say much in favor of your democracy and justice system.

It's unfortunate because Jordan was considered a progressive voice in the ME on the matter of death penalty. They had put in place a moraturum in the last 8 years and a nationwide debate showed that Jordanians are divided on the issue. (See: http://www.aljazeera...1125989644.html)

Edited by samus
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Careful_perspective

I am trying to rationalize this somehow because it greatly saddens me to think that other nations will be forced to this level of behavior.

However, perhaps the ISIS fighters will be affected by this news. Perhaps if they see that when they are captured by another Arab army they will face equal treatment, like a medieval execution, rather than being sent to a Guantanamo bay like prison, it will lessen their resolve?

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and then

I am not a believer in the rethoric for death penalty, but even if a State so chooses to allow it within it's law, the defendants must be able to make their case in front of a court and judged without bias. That's what we call a fair trial. Hanging ISIS detainees on a whim because the terrorist group shamelessly commited such crime on an Jordan military man, who knew the risk of his mission, does not say much in favor of your democracy and justice system.

It's unfortunate because Jordan was considered a progressive voice in the ME on the matter of death penalty. They had put in place a moraturum in the last 8 years and a nationwide debate showed that Jordanians are divided on the issue. (See: http://www.aljazeera...1125989644.html)

If these people were captured on the battlefield then their guilt is certain. ISIS has proven that they have NO morality at all. Anyone who fights for them should forfeit their life. Those who attempt to handle these scum as though they deserve any consideration AT ALL will lose to them in time. This is a struggle for survival against an evil without parallel in modern times.

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Electrika

Why do things have to turn out this way?

Is this really what life should be?

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TSS

I think this is a smart move......the biggest handicap we have against IS is our own rules and regulations. Their beheading videos work in terms of installing fear because there has been next to nothing we can do about it. If every time they made one 10 or 20 IS prisoners were executed their recruitment drive would start to faulter. The other thing we should be doing is handing over any returning westerners who have fought over there to the regimes they fought against, and to hell with what those regimes do to them. Harsh, but tough, we need to regain the initiative by handicapping this pond life with their own set of rules.

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RoofGardener

A State is only falling to the same level than those extremist murderers by doing the same thing they do. Executing prisioners without a fair trial is also against the Geneva Convention treaties. Yes, Jordan did signed Protocol II in 1979.

''In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

2.[...]''

Source: http://www1.umn.edu/...ree/y3gctpw.htm

:hmm:

Hmmm.

Jordan is threatening to "fast track" executions of convicted ISIS terrorists. This is permissible under the Geneva conventiosn, providing that Jordan follows "due legal process".

The unspoken implication is that Jordan has arrested and convicted other ISIS fighters or terrorists. However, all of the newspaper articles tiptoe very delicately around that issue, and certainly there are no names named, nor even rough figures for quantities of such arrestees. So do they even exist, or is Jordan simply making a threat about future prisoners ?

What is the legal situation viz the Jordanian F16 pilot ? Has Jordan formally declared war against ISIS ? If not, then the aircraft could be regarded as being involved in a terrorist attack. Indeed, it could even be regarded as a crime against humanity if civilians where killed without 'due regard' and proper command/control. Again, the media seems VERY quiet about what the mission was. In the absence of such knowledge, is it possble that ISIS are - in international law - justified in executing him ? They certainly would be under Sharia law. (under the Koranic imperative of "... making mischeif in the land..", if nothing else.) And who can argue against that ? Can you imagine the uproar in the UN if they where to attempt to say that Sharia does not consittute "due legal process" ?

Speaking of which, the poor Japanese journalist could be regarded as a spy. Even if not, he comes from a nation traditionally associated with polytheism, which is considered a worse crime than murder under Sharia, and is therefore unlikely to be respected by his captors.

Not as simple as it first seems, is it ?

Edited by RoofGardener
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NewAge1

Hmmm.

Jordan is threatening to "fast track" executions of convicted ISIS terrorists. This is permissible under the Geneva conventiosn, providing that Jordan follows "due legal process".

Sure, but the State of Jordan claims that they will hang all of their ISIS detainees, even before a due legal process takes place, which makes the possiblity of a fair trial almost impossible. Basically the State just condemned to a death sentence the prisoners on the public place, disregarding their own justice system.

I know that some people don't care, because their hatred and disgust of ISIS make them forget what make us more civilized than these extremists murderers but still, it is my view that we shouldn't lower ourselves to their level.

The unspoken implication is that Jordan has arrested and convicted other ISIS fighters or terrorists. However, all of the newspaper articles tiptoe very delicately around that issue, and certainly there are no names named, nor even rough figures for quantities of such arrestees. So do they even exist, or is Jordan simply making a threat about future prisoners ?

From what we have been told, ISIS is trying to bargain a prisoner exchange (a would-be suicide bomber named al-Rishawi) for the pilot's life and gave an ultimatum. So I think it's safe to assume that Jordan does indeed have prisoner(s) belonging to this terrorist group. The thing is, the State of Jordan wants proof that the military man is actually alive before proceeding to negociations, which there isn't at this point.

What is the legal situation viz the Jordanian F16 pilot ? Has Jordan formally declared war against ISIS ? If not, then the aircraft could be regarded as being involved in a terrorist attack. Indeed, it could even be regarded as a crime against humanity if civilians where killed without 'due regard' and proper command/control. Again, the media seems VERY quiet about what the mission was. In the absence of such knowledge, is it possble that ISIS are - in international law - justified in executing him ?

Jordan is part of the US-led coalition against ISIS, so they are indeed at war against this group. The air force pilot's mission was to launch an airstrike against one of ISIS's target as part of a raid near Raqqa, Syria but his plane had - so far as we know - a technical failure or was taken down by an anti-aircraft weapon.

Edited by samus

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and then

Hmmm.

Jordan is threatening to "fast track" executions of convicted ISIS terrorists. This is permissible under the Geneva conventiosn, providing that Jordan follows "due legal process".

The unspoken implication is that Jordan has arrested and convicted other ISIS fighters or terrorists. However, all of the newspaper articles tiptoe very delicately around that issue, and certainly there are no names named, nor even rough figures for quantities of such arrestees. So do they even exist, or is Jordan simply making a threat about future prisoners ?

What is the legal situation viz the Jordanian F16 pilot ? Has Jordan formally declared war against ISIS ? If not, then the aircraft could be regarded as being involved in a terrorist attack. Indeed, it could even be regarded as a crime against humanity if civilians where killed without 'due regard' and proper command/control. Again, the media seems VERY quiet about what the mission was. In the absence of such knowledge, is it possble that ISIS are - in international law - justified in executing him ? They certainly would be under Sharia law. (under the Koranic imperative of "... making mischeif in the land..", if nothing else.) And who can argue against that ? Can you imagine the uproar in the UN if they where to attempt to say that Sharia does not consittute "due legal process" ?

Speaking of which, the poor Japanese journalist could be regarded as a spy. Even if not, he comes from a nation traditionally associated with polytheism, which is considered a worse crime than murder under Sharia, and is therefore unlikely to be respected by his captors.

Not as simple as it first seems, is it ?

Clash of cultures and civilizations seems to sum it up quite aptly. Like the old HIGHLANDER movie said: THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE.
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RoofGardener

Sure, but the State of Jordan claims that they will hang all of their ISIS detainees, even before a due legal process takes place, which makes the possiblity of a fair trial almost impossible. Basically the State just condemned to a death sentence the prisoners on the public place, disregarding their own justice system.

I don't think that any Jordanian official DID claim that, Samus. What they ACTUALLY said was that ISIS captives "...would be quickly judged and sentenced..". The bit about hanging etc was an invention of the Daily Mail, as was the implication that it would be a kangeroo court.

Ferreting around the newspaper reports on Google, I can't find ANY reference to confirm the existence of additional ISIS captives. Many of the reports repeat the Jordanian comment of "ISIS commanders in jail.....", but none of them challenge or clarify just WHO these "ISIS commanders" are,. or how many there are. My own conclusion is that Jordan PROBABLY doesn't have any such captives, and are merely making threats about future intentions.

From what we have been told, ISIS is trying to bargain a prisoner exchange (a would-be suicide bomber named al-Rishawi) for the pilot's life and gave an ultimatum. So I think it's safe to assume that Jordan does indeed have prisoner(s) belonging to this terrorist group.

I disagree. Why are no other "ISIS captives" - apart from al-Rishaw - mentioned by name by either side ? Consider also how Miss Rishaw was captured: a deep-penetration suicide bombing involving multiple bombers. In her case, the detonater didn't work. This sort of attack is hardly a daily event in Jordan, and ISIS doesn't YET have a direct land border with Jordan, so where - precisely - are these captured ISIS 'commanders' supposed to have come from, and how - exactly - would they have been captured ?

Jordan is part of the US-led coalition against ISIS, so they are indeed at war against this group. The air force pilot's mission was to launch an airstrike against one of ISIS's target as part of a raid near Raqqa, Syria but his plane had - so far as we know - a technical failure or was taken down by an anti-aircraft weapon.

You see, here is the problem Samus. The international attacks against ISIS in Iraq are legal, because the government of Iraq has authorised them.

However, in the case of Syria, Bashar al Assad has NOT authorised Jordanian (or any other) airstrikes. Even if he had, ISIS could argue that Assad has long since lost control of the country, and is not in a position to authorise foreign air strikes. Either way, the Jordanian actions are NOT sanctioned by international law. Accordingly the Jordanian pilot has the status of Illegal Enemy Combatant.

America set the standard on dealing with IEC's during their time in Afghanistan and Iraq. Using their behavior as the benchmark, ISIS can do pretty much whatever they want with this pilot. The chickens have come home to roost !

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Lilly

Capturing journalists and aid workers then lopping off their heads is certainly not sanctioned by any international law I know of. ISIS is also a terrorist organization operating outside of any law (other than their own perversion of Sharia). Jordan's response to ISIS seems to me to be quite reasonable considering what ISIS is.

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ellapenella

America set the standard on dealing with IEC's during their time in Afghanistan and Iraq. Using their behavior as the benchmark, ISIS can do pretty much whatever they want with this pilot. The chickens have come home to roost !

Are you just ranting , or do you mean this ?

Edited by Ellapennella

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Mr.United_Nations

I don't think that any Jordanian official DID claim that, Samus. What they ACTUALLY said was that ISIS captives "...would be quickly judged and sentenced..". The bit about hanging etc was an invention of the Daily Mail, as was the implication that it would be a kangeroo court.

Ferreting around the newspaper reports on Google, I can't find ANY reference to confirm the existence of additional ISIS captives. Many of the reports repeat the Jordanian comment of "ISIS commanders in jail.....", but none of them challenge or clarify just WHO these "ISIS commanders" are,. or how many there are. My own conclusion is that Jordan PROBABLY doesn't have any such captives, and are merely making threats about future intentions.

I disagree. Why are no other "ISIS captives" - apart from al-Rishaw - mentioned by name by either side ? Consider also how Miss Rishaw was captured: a deep-penetration suicide bombing involving multiple bombers. In her case, the detonater didn't work. This sort of attack is hardly a daily event in Jordan, and ISIS doesn't YET have a direct land border with Jordan, so where - precisely - are these captured ISIS 'commanders' supposed to have come from, and how - exactly - would they have been captured ?

You see, here is the problem Samus. The international attacks against ISIS in Iraq are legal, because the government of Iraq has authorised them.

However, in the case of Syria, Bashar al Assad has NOT authorised Jordanian (or any other) airstrikes. Even if he had, ISIS could argue that Assad has long since lost control of the country, and is not in a position to authorise foreign air strikes. Either way, the Jordanian actions are NOT sanctioned by international law. Accordingly the Jordanian pilot has the status of Illegal Enemy Combatant.

America set the standard on dealing with IEC's during their time in Afghanistan and Iraq. Using their behavior as the benchmark, ISIS can do pretty much whatever they want with this pilot. The chickens have come home to roost !

Ah but Assad has played a clever game, he is allowed the west to buy time for him te get support. Infact Syria has actually stepped up attacks against ISIS

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Black Red Devil

You can't bring international law into these "negotiations" because ISIS isn't a recognised state or nation. Jordan is and by making these counter threats PUBLICLY, they're levelling themselves to the (non) standards of ISIS, therefore defying their own democratic legal system and setting an awkward precedent for future incrimination's. On the other hand, if Jordan's Laws included and allowed execution of detainees found guilty of terrorist actions, then under their legal system these executions would be fully justified, but, this would have been the case even before this event with their pilot happened.

Edited by Black Red Devil
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NewAge1
I don't think that any Jordanian official DID claim that, Samus. What they ACTUALLY said was that ISIS captives "...would be quickly judged and sentenced..". The bit about hanging etc was an invention of the Daily Mail, as was the implication that it would be a kangeroo court.

That comes from Elijah Magnier, a senior correspondant from Kuwait's Al Rai newspaper.

''Elijah Magnier, chief international correspondent for Kuwait's Al Rai newspaper, told MailOnline: 'I have reliable contact in the Jordanian government who says a message has been passed to ISIS.

'It warns that if they kill the pilot they will implement the death sentences for Sajida and other ISIS prisoners as soon as possible.

'There are other prisoners in Jordan that ISIS would like to free.'

MailOnline has attempted to contact the Jordanian government for comment, but a spokesman has not yet responded.''

Source: http://www.aljoumhou...ws/index/208131

Whether or not that is true, I cannot claim to know, but it is a fact that the execution method of prisioners sentenced to death in Jordan is hanging. So that part is not an invention. It remains to be seen what ''fast-tracking the executions'' means for the Jordan State, and if that will result in a disregard of procedures of their justice system.

Ferreting around the newspaper reports on Google, I can't find ANY reference to confirm the existence of additional ISIS captives. Many of the reports repeat the Jordanian comment of "ISIS commanders in jail.....", but none of them challenge or clarify just WHO these "ISIS commanders" are,. or how many there are. My own conclusion is that Jordan PROBABLY doesn't have any such captives, and are merely making threats about future intentions.

We don't know if Jordan has any other ISIS-related prisoners, we don't have the whole picture so one can only speculate.

However, in the case of Syria, Bashar al Assad has NOT authorised Jordanian (or any other) airstrikes. Even if he had, ISIS could argue that Assad has long since lost control of the country, and is not in a position to authorise foreign air strikes. Either way, the Jordanian actions are NOT sanctioned by international law. Accordingly the Jordanian pilot has the status of Illegal Enemy Combatant.

I guess my point is that the air force pilot knew that his mission was not risk-free, regardless of where he was doing it, Syria or Iraq. We know what ISIS do to it's capitves. My thoughts goes with this young man and hopefully he come back of this alive, he if actually still live at this point. But it is not for nothing that the Kurd fighters always carry with them a weapon of last resort. Falling into ISIS's hands is out of the question.

Edited by samus

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ellapenella

ISIS could argue that Assad has long since lost control of the country, and is not in a position to authorise foreign air strikes.

No - they can not argue for anything .

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RoofGardener

That comes from Elijah Magnier, a senior correspondant from Kuwait's Al Rai newspaper.

''Elijah Magnier, chief international correspondent for Kuwait's Al Rai newspaper, told MailOnline: 'I have reliable contact in the Jordanian government who says a message has been passed to ISIS.

'It warns that if they kill the pilot they will implement the death sentences for Sajida and other ISIS prisoners as soon as possible.

'There are other prisoners in Jordan that ISIS would like to free.'

MailOnline has attempted to contact the Jordanian government for comment, but a spokesman has not yet responded.''

Source: http://www.aljoumhou...ws/index/208131

Whether or not that is true, I cannot claim to know, but it is a fact that the execution method of prisioners sentenced to death in Jordan is hanging. So that part is not an invention. It remains to be seen what ''fast-tracking the executions'' means for the Jordan State, and if that will result in a disregard of procedures of their justice system.

Oh COOL. So the whole "Jordan standing up to ISIS" meme is based on one foreign newspaper correspondent (UK Daily Mail) quoting another foreign newspaper correspondent (Kuwaiti) quoting an un-named Jordanian "Government Official" who said that "a message had been sent" ?

That hardly seems like a ringing declaration of principle from the Jordanian Government. :D

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seeder

They have now burnt the Jordan pilot to death, in a cage

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-31121160

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Lilly

They have now burnt the Jordan pilot to death, in a cage

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-31121160

The time has come to realize exactly what ISIS is. Anyone affiliated with this horrific evil needs to be removed from our world. IMO, Jordan should try and execute all members of ISIS currently being held. All civilized nations should do the exact same thing. ISIS needs to be eradicated like the cancer it is.

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Rafterman

The time has come to realize exactly what ISIS is. Anyone affiliated with this horrific evil needs to be removed from our world. IMO, Jordan should try and execute all members of ISIS currently being held. All civilized nations should do the exact same thing. ISIS needs to be eradicated like the cancer it is.

According to the Daily Mail (yeah, I know), Jordan has announced that it will be executing six ISIS prisoners within the next few hours.

Regarding hostages, the last high profile one left is the female American aid worker, right?

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seeder

According to the Daily Mail (yeah, I know), Jordan has announced that it will be executing six ISIS prisoners within the next few hours.

Regarding hostages, the last high profile one left is the female American aid worker, right?

hey the Daily Mail isnt such a bad news source.... they often gets the news out before a lot of other sources. But yes lets hope Jordan follows through, but it wont change a thing until the coalition go in on the ground

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seeder

Reuters say:

"The revenge will be as big as the calamity that has hit Jordan," army spokesman Colonel Mamdouh al Ameri said in a televised statement confirming the death of the pilot, who was captured in December when his plane crashed over Syria.

A government spokesman said in a statement that Jordan would deliver a "strong, earth-shaking and decisive" response.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/02/03/uk-mideast-crisis-killing-idUKKBN0L71Y720150203

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Mr.United_Nations

Reuters say:

if they are true to their word, then they will start a "seek & destroy" mission

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