American Sniper has warped peoples minds

[Beefers]

When your entire country is about making war...there really are no innocents.

So every US citizen is guilty and all the countries that were attacked have the right to attack any US citizen? There's no country out there that is as much about making war than the US at the moment. It's the driving force of the economy.

[Rut Roh]

Do you mean punishing the perpetrators of the USA's foreign policy.

Its not your responsibility to punish a sovereign nation, and certainly no justice could ever be achieved by killing hundreds of thousands of a soverign countries citizens.

Br Cornelius

Nope... No answer there. Just a simple reply that offers nothing in regards to a solution to all your rantings. Again I will say, we are the devil. What is a possible solution?

If no true answer is given then I must assume that your intent is nothing more than to come on here and rant like some old curmudgeon at the local bar. Nothing of substance will be gained... but could be an amusing listen.

[F3SS]

He played the tapes for me. Truman did not make the decision lightly. He said it was the hardest decision he ever had to make...

One would assume but the truth must be that we were and are a pyschopathic country hellbent on killing as many as possible for the sake of it. It must be because talking, negotiating and ass grabbing are peaceful and logical solutions that always work.

[Yamato]

Unfourtantly history has no control group so it's just speculation at this point.

Based on their military supreme race culture I feel that they would start trying to war again in a decade if we didn't do an unconditional surrender.

also after all the time I wouldn't risk it. It's a unconditional surrender or none. The world lost too much to not have a full enough victory to make sure it never happens again. If they even surrender at all. They refused before and after the first bomb. Their view was victory or death

and I will add. Would you offer the same sort of surrender with stipulations to Hitler? Because the Japanese where just as bad with their supreme race view.

It's not about what I would do, it's about what we did do. We didn't do an unconditional surrender. We let them have their Emperor anyway. So it's a bit of creative license to use rhetoric like "They refused after the first bomb". As it turns out there was plenty of political support for conditional surrender (their military was finished) it was the Emperor that constipated making terms.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

One would assume but the truth must be that we were and are a pyschopathic country hellbent on killing as many as possible for the sake of it. It must be because talking, negotiating and ass grabbing are peaceful and logical solutions that always work.

*Deleted* Self censorship in action

Br Cornelius

Edited February 11, 2015 by Br Cornelius

[F3SS]

Control those emotions. Goosfraba...

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Its a chill wind that blows. There was no emotion involved, just more unsavory analysis

Br Cornelius

[Einsteinium]

One would assume but the truth must be that we were and are a pyschopathic country hellbent on killing as many as possible for the sake of it. It must be because talking, negotiating and ass grabbing are peaceful and logical solutions that always work.

No, we are simply a powerful nation that consumes huge amounts of resources, and we want to make sure those resources keep flowing to us so we can sustain our economic growth and maintain stability.

[+joc]

So every US citizen is guilty and all the countries that were attacked have the right to attack any US citizen? There's no country out there that is as much about making war than the US at the moment. It's the driving force of the economy.

You! Go ahead and twist everything into your convaluted liberal perspective. I'm not playing.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Been psychopathic means you just don't care about the human cost, only the cost in dollars.

Br Cornelius

[Beefers]

You! Go ahead and twist everything into your convaluted liberal perspective. I'm not playing.

It's the exact same thing looked at from the "enemy" perspective. US lives are worth more than people halfway across the world?

[F3SS]

Been psychopathic means you just don't care about the human cost, only the cost in dollars.

Br Cornelius

No kidding. That's exactly what you say about US all the time. Are you suggesting otherwise?

[White Crane Feather]

Been psychopathic means you just don't care about the human cost, only the cost in dollars.

Br Cornelius

What about being ignorant to opertunity costs and assuming the worst decision was made? Oh.... Then calculating everything wrong with the world and attributing it to one cause or action in more than dubious statistical colorations based upon one sided opinions.

[+joc]

It's the exact same thing looked at from the "enemy" perspective. US lives are worth more than people halfway across the world?

I'm quite sure that I do not know the 'enemy' perspective...that you do may be somewhat telling in and of itself. Is your life worth more than mine? It depends now doesn't it? If say, you are in harms way...maybe in a house on fire or in a lake drowning...then I would risk my life trying to save yours. That would mean that I considered your life worth more than mine. However; if I perceived you as a threat...then I would take your life without hesitation. That would mean that I considered my life worth more than yours. Interesting isn't it? It's all a matter of perception.

Our 'enemies' consider that we should die...it isn't even a matter of who's life is more important. Our 'enemies' will kill themselves gladly if that is what it takes to end our lives. That is what we in the real world call...sick! That is what I consider a threat. And so, annihalating that threat a half a world away is of no consequence to me...anymore than I would destroy you if you threatened me from 3 feet away. Perspective! Where does your perspective lie?

Edited February 13, 2015 by joc

[acidhead]

Check this out!

Feb. 12, 2015

Adam Kokesh(guy in the OP video) gets his mic cut by Dr Drew on HLN

[Yamato]

Dr Drew "doesn't like people flying planes into buildings", so...cut Adam's mic!

[Yamato]

It is my position that neither bomb was necessary to obtain a surrender on terms that should have been acceptable to the USA.

Br Cornelius

I agree. The bomb may have been necessary to turn the tide against Germany if things went much differently for Germany in the Eastern front. But against Japan? It was unnecessary from a strategic standpoint in any case because the Japanese wanted to make terms. The Emperor is one hell of a reason to fry a hundred thousand innocent men women and children. An invasion of Japan wasn't necessary either although the threat of invasion was certainly the most horrifying prospect of all to the Japanese. The Soviet Union declared war on Japan which would have pushed the Japanese right into our loving arms much like the Germans went west to surrender in the dying days of the war in Europe.

[Beefers]

I'm quite sure that I do not know the 'enemy' perspective...that you do may be somewhat telling in and of itself. Is your life worth more than mine? It depends now doesn't it? If say, you are in harms way...maybe in a house on fire or in a lake drowning...then I would risk my life trying to save yours. That would mean that I considered your life worth more than mine. However; if I perceived you as a threat...then I would take your life without hesitation. That would mean that I considered my life worth more than yours. Interesting isn't it? It's all a matter of perception.

Our 'enemies' consider that we should die...it isn't even a matter of who's life is more important. Our 'enemies' will kill themselves gladly if that is what it takes to end our lives. That is what we in the real world call...sick! That is what I consider a threat. And so, annihalating that threat a half a world away is of no consequence to me...anymore than I would destroy you if you threatened me from 3 feet away. Perspective! Where does your perspective lie?

Empathy, that you lack it makes me worried.

And 3000 US civilians died vs. 100.000+ civilians in Iraq. 9/11 is seen as the worst thing in history in the US, yet a couple of thousand of innocent people killed to kill one suspected terrorist is just a little bit of collateral damage... Seems to me people in the middle east don't matter at all to 95% of US citizens, they're just numbers.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

I agree. The bomb may have been necessary to turn the tide against Germany if things went much differently for Germany in the Eastern front. But against Japan? It was unnecessary from a strategic standpoint in any case because the Japanese wanted to make terms. The Emperor is one hell of a reason to fry a hundred thousand innocent men women and children. An invasion of Japan wasn't necessary either although the threat of invasion was certainly the most horrifying prospect of all to the Japanese. The Soviet Union declared war on Japan which would have pushed the Japanese right into our loving arms much like the Germans went west to surrender in the dying days of the war in Europe.

All of the excuses been put forward here can be easily demonstrated to be hollow post hock justifications without any real substance (there was no possibility that millions more would be killed in the Pacific since active combat had all but stopped other than carpet bombing the cities - which in turn were no longer necessary since surrender was on the cards for at least 7 months prior to the end of the war).

As I said it was a new toy which had to be tested and it allowed a detailed set of data to be established on the long term effects of a Nuclear weapon on a civilian population. We still use that data in assessments of nuclear accidents.

Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

[DarkHunter]

I agree. The bomb may have been necessary to turn the tide against Germany if things went much differently for Germany in the Eastern front. But against Japan? It was unnecessary from a strategic standpoint in any case because the Japanese wanted to make terms. The Emperor is one hell of a reason to fry a hundred thousand innocent men women and children. An invasion of Japan wasn't necessary either although the threat of invasion was certainly the most horrifying prospect of all to the Japanese. The Soviet Union declared war on Japan which would have pushed the Japanese right into our loving arms much like the Germans went west to surrender in the dying days of the war in Europe.

The terms Japan wanted where unacceptable to the allies. Keeping the Emperor was one of the terms that Japan wanted, but you seem to be leaving out the other terms such as Japanese disarmament would not occur under allied supervision, that Japan would not be occupied by allied forces, or have to face trial for war crimes among a few more conditions. Then there was the Potsdam Declaration which the big 6, the top of the Japanese government, rejected. Then after the rejection the first atomic bomb was dropped and the Soviet Union invaded Manchuria. The big six met again and was still divided on surrender or continuing the war at this point, after some words from the Emperor they decided to accept the Potsdam Declaration on one condition, and that condition wasn't that they got to keep their Emperor, the condition was it would be accepted as long as it didn't "prejudice the pregogatives" of the Emperor, which went beyond just keeping the Emperor but extended to ensuring that there would be no change to the Japanese government. Then the second atomic bomb gets dropped and the big 6 finally go to their only condition being just to keep the Emperor which the allies find to be acceptable. Even then some mid level members of the military tried a coup to stop the surrender.

You mention the invasion of the Soviet Union pushing the Japanese into our arms, but the biggest problem with that is that while the Soviet Union had a much larger and better equipped army then Japan during that time, it was unable to invade any of the Japanese main islands. The best the Soviet Union was able to do was fight Japan on mainland Asia. The Japanese knew the Soviet Union lacked the materials needed for an invasion of the home islands so they didn't really fear an invasion from the Soviet Union.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

The terms Japan wanted where unacceptable to the allies. Keeping the Emperor was one of the terms that Japan wanted, but you seem to be leaving out the other terms such as Japanese disarmament would not occur under allied supervision, that Japan would not be occupied by allied forces, or have to face trial for war crimes among a few more conditions. Then there was the Potsdam Declaration which the big 6, the top of the Japanese government, rejected. Then after the rejection the first atomic bomb was dropped and the Soviet Union invaded Manchuria. The big six met again and was still divided on surrender or continuing the war at this point, after some words from the Emperor they decided to accept the Potsdam Declaration on one condition, and that condition wasn't that they got to keep their Emperor, the condition was it would be accepted as long as it didn't "prejudice the pregogatives" of the Emperor, which went beyond just keeping the Emperor but extended to ensuring that there would be no change to the Japanese government. Then the second atomic bomb gets dropped and the big 6 finally go to their only condition being just to keep the Emperor which the allies find to be acceptable. Even then some mid level members of the military tried a coup to stop the surrender.

You mention the invasion of the Soviet Union pushing the Japanese into our arms, but the biggest problem with that is that while the Soviet Union had a much larger and better equipped army then Japan during that time, it was unable to invade any of the Japanese main islands. The best the Soviet Union was able to do was fight Japan on mainland Asia. The Japanese knew the Soviet Union lacked the materials needed for an invasion of the home islands so they didn't really fear an invasion from the Soviet Union.

A simple process of waiting would have resolved all those issues. Japan was under a totally effective blockade, The Japanese could not fight on in any meaningful way and could not re-arm.

The nuclear strikes have been dismissed as strategically unnecessary by practically all military historians and military commanders who studied the issues involved.

There were other motives at play.

Br Cornelius

[+joc]

Empathy, that you lack it makes me worried.

And 3000 US civilians died vs. 100.000+ civilians in Iraq. 9/11 is seen as the worst thing in history in the US, yet a couple of thousand of innocent people killed to kill one suspected terrorist is just a little bit of collateral damage... Seems to me people in the middle east don't matter at all to 95% of US citizens, they're just numbers.

We didn't kill 100,000 civilians in Iraq. 9/11 is the worst thing that has ever happened in US history. The next worst thing would be the blatant unprovoked attack from Japan. Nagasaki and Hiroshima ....any questions? But that was Japan. We did NOT kill 100,000 civilians in Iraq. That is a complete and total fabrication of the truth and it isn't you who fabricated it. You just are repeating the lie. So...provide some proof...there isn't any.

You think shock and awe was about civillians? No...we dessimated the Republican Guard and the fourth largest standing army in the world...in a matter of days!

In fact, we freed millions of Iraqis from the torture of Sadaam...and we overcame the insurgents in Faluja and other places...and the Iraqi people loved us....until Obama deserted them....

...Bush didn't pull out of Iraq...Obama did...Bush didn't pull out of Afghanastan...Obama did...

Bush did one thing however...he warned us that if we pulled out too soon...exactly what is happening now ...would happen and he was right.

Edited February 13, 2015 by joc

[Guest Br Cornelius]

You killed far more than 100,000 in Iraq. You cannot just count those you bombed or shot.

Most were the victims of the sanctions and the total collapse of civil society and infrastructure (dirty water, failed sanitation). Every child that died from diarrhoea was killed by the war as surely as those who received bullets.

Br Cornelius

Edited February 13, 2015 by Br Cornelius

[preacherman76]

We killed at least 100,000 directly with the shock and awe campaign. We bombed the living hell outta whole cities. We all watched em do it on live TV. How could anyone denie that?

[Yamato]

The terms Japan wanted where unacceptable to the allies. Keeping the Emperor was one of the terms that Japan wanted, but you seem to be leaving out the other terms such as Japanese disarmament would not occur under allied supervision, that Japan would not be occupied by allied forces, or have to face trial for war crimes among a few more conditions. Then there was the Potsdam Declaration which the big 6, the top of the Japanese government, rejected. Then after the rejection the first atomic bomb was dropped and the Soviet Union invaded Manchuria. The big six met again and was still divided on surrender or continuing the war at this point, after some words from the Emperor they decided to accept the Potsdam Declaration on one condition, and that condition wasn't that they got to keep their Emperor, the condition was it would be accepted as long as it didn't "prejudice the pregogatives" of the Emperor, which went beyond just keeping the Emperor but extended to ensuring that there would be no change to the Japanese government. Then the second atomic bomb gets dropped and the big 6 finally go to their only condition being just to keep the Emperor which the allies find to be acceptable. Even then some mid level members of the military tried a coup to stop the surrender.

You mention the invasion of the Soviet Union pushing the Japanese into our arms, but the biggest problem with that is that while the Soviet Union had a much larger and better equipped army then Japan during that time, it was unable to invade any of the Japanese main islands. The best the Soviet Union was able to do was fight Japan on mainland Asia. The Japanese knew the Soviet Union lacked the materials needed for an invasion of the home islands so they didn't really fear an invasion from the Soviet Union.

This would have taken some time, it's not an overnight process. The allies didn't want to invade Japan. That wasn't a part of the "unconditional surrender" we were asking for. Which was nothing but fluff rhetoric. Nobody as it turned out, insisted on "unconditional surrender" that was meaningless bureau language which meant great politics for Democrips.