Drayno Posted February 17, 2015 #26 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I think Putin will only draw back once he has achieved at least his land bridge to Crimea and he may want even more now. He feels he has the measure of western leaders and he can do as he pleases. If we arm the Ukrainians he will double down because he truly believes we will not go all the way. This is the kind of opportunity for miscalculation that makes dealing with a nuclear power so dangerous. Now imagine Iran or her proxies pushing at Israel, raiding border towns or kidnapping soldiers or civilians. An Israeli leader would have no choice but to escalate - at what point does someone back down? If it happened today it would be a "mowing of the grass". The time after Iran is known to be a nuclear state... the whole world will be in turmoil and danger. One thing for certain, while Putin may still be rational, Islamist governments like Iran are lead by people who are NOT. Fair points, I agree the world will not be safe when Iran gets Nuclear Weapons. Putin, for all of his faults, at least has a strong culture. At least he believes in something. He is tough, but he is also a man of principle, being ex-military. In the lesser of two evils, he is more centered than Obama is.. Despite the fault of all politics being most leaders are out of touch.. I could see Putin stopping, like you said, but I don't see him really doing so. He's tested the waters, and again, I agree, he knows he's in a good position. The West is getting weaker the more the military is disassembled. He's testing US reactions; (Alaska, Florida). I could see any turmoil against Iran falling into turmoil with Russia. Just because Iran, though different than Russia, is still a regional neighbor to the giant sleeping Russian bear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babe Ruth Posted February 17, 2015 #27 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The West is so desperate in its propaganda efforts that a US Senator introduces pictures of Russian tanks in Ossetia in 2008 on the Senate floor and calls them pictures of Russian tanks in Ukraine today. Then he must admit in public that he was wrong. He was essentially war-mongering. And I used to respect Inhofe a little bit.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.United_Nations Posted February 17, 2015 #28 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The West is so desperate in its propaganda efforts that a US Senator introduces pictures of Russian tanks in Ossetia in 2008 on the Senate floor and calls them pictures of Russian tanks in Ukraine today. Then he must admit in public that he was wrong. He was essentially war-mongering. And I used to respect Inhofe a little bit.... So why are the rebels confirming that there is Russian Tanks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rashore Posted February 17, 2015 #29 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The West is so desperate in its propaganda efforts that a US Senator introduces pictures of Russian tanks in Ossetia in 2008 on the Senate floor and calls them pictures of Russian tanks in Ukraine today. Then he must admit in public that he was wrong. He was essentially war-mongering. And I used to respect Inhofe a little bit.... Well, that's one take on it. Another is that when Inhofe was presented with the images (purportedly by Ukraine parliament staff), he was told they were recent, and he was fooled by those that gave him the images. And it wasn't till after the fact that his office found out how old the images were. In which case he was duped, not war-mongering. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kartikg Posted February 17, 2015 #30 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So why are the rebels confirming that there is Russian Tanks? Because Ukraine soldiers will have fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted February 17, 2015 #31 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Putin, for all of his faults, at least has a strong culture. At least he believes in something. He is tough, but he is also a man of principle, being ex-military. And him being ex-KGB tells you what about his personality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MordorOrc Posted February 17, 2015 #32 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The West is so desperate in its propaganda efforts Have to stop you there. Firstly, it was a Ukrainian official who gave the photos to the senator and secondly, Russia has been pushing a massive propaganda campaign, not the US. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varelse Posted February 18, 2015 Author #33 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) Have to stop you there. Firstly, it was a Ukrainian official who gave the photos to the senator and secondly, Russia has been pushing a massive propaganda campaign, not the US. Keyword "massive". It looks like Putin is running several boards with knights, castles and bishops while the everyone else just keep trading squares with the same old piece back and forth, back and forth going nowhere they haven't been before. Other considerations - Russia has a network of crime bosses Putin calls "friend" who can help circumvent and outfox sanctions. As for the US, there's nothing else we can do anyway. It's 100% out of our hands militarily. Not to mention any military interference would be a very unpopular move with normal republicans and all democrats that are tired of us sticking our nose into every single foreign soil conflict not going exactly the way we want. Edited February 18, 2015 by Varelse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted February 18, 2015 #34 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Keyword "massive". It looks like Putin is running several boards with knights, castles and bishops while the everyone else just keep trading squares with the same old piece back and forth, back and forth going nowhere they haven't been before. Other considerations - Russia has a network of crime bosses Putin calls "friend" who can help circumvent and outfox sanctions. As for the US, there's nothing else we can do anyway. It's 100% out of our hands militarily. Not to mention any military interference would be a very unpopular move with normal republicans and all democrats that are tired of us sticking our nose into every single foreign soil conflict not going exactly the way we want. Well for all those hardy Repubs and Dems who don't want us meddling abroad -GOOD NEWS! ... pretty soon we'll be up to our ass in Islamic extremist attacks right here at home. Choice! Now we don't have to travel to other countries! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellapenella Posted February 18, 2015 #35 Share Posted February 18, 2015 As for the US, there's nothing else we can do anyway. It's 100% out of our hands militarily. Not to mention any military interference would be a very unpopular move with normal republicans and all democrats that are tired of us sticking our nose into every single foreign soil conflict not going exactly the way we want. Don't jump the gun varelese . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanato Posted February 20, 2015 #36 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Anyone who thinks the Russians aren't supplying arms to the rebels is blinder then a corps. A rebel force of mainly untrained civilians using captured weapons would not be able to stop a professional conscript military. The original ceasefire was used to consolidate, regroup, then attack the Ukrainians. This one was doomed from the onset. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MordorOrc Posted February 20, 2015 #37 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Actually, I would not be surprised if most of those fighting on the rebel side were conscripts in the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Hence why they've been able to use the equipment and put it to good use because of their experience with it. However, I do believe that Russia is offering more than military equipment. I would assume that the Russians are providing the rebels with strategic planning and intelligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted February 20, 2015 #38 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Oh, Ukraine. Don't you know, it's all been done before? http://youtu.be/I0AxrOUJ62E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted February 20, 2015 #39 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Anyone who thinks the Russians aren't supplying arms to the rebels is blinder then a corps. A rebel force of mainly untrained civilians using captured weapons would not be able to stop a professional conscript military. The original ceasefire was used to consolidate, regroup, then attack the Ukrainians. This one was doomed from the onset. Anyone remotely sane knows that Ukraine is just a pit stop for further advances of Russia. Putin and ISIS are in coordination. I keep on repeating it. The world can defeat ISIS, easily. But Russia is a hard Nut. I am not one of those doomsday prophets but something stinks in the land of Earth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kartikg Posted February 20, 2015 #40 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Anyone remotely sane knows that Ukraine is just a pit stop for further advances of Russia. Putin and ISIS are in coordination. I keep on repeating it. The world can defeat ISIS, easily. But Russia is a hard Nut. I am not one of those doomsday prophets but something stinks in the land of Earth. No Russia won't expand . The days of ruling other regions is over it's just too expensive . The resources needed to maintain a large military presence , administration costs , negative publicity it's just too much for a nation is just too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.United_Nations Posted February 20, 2015 #41 Share Posted February 20, 2015 No Russia won't expand . The days of ruling other regions is over it's just too expensive . The resources needed to maintain a large military presence , administration costs , negative publicity it's just too much for a nation is just too much. Russia has got tonnes of resources, Russia's military is huge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted February 20, 2015 #42 Share Posted February 20, 2015 No Russia won't expand . The days of ruling other regions is over it's just too expensive . The resources needed to maintain a large military presence , administration costs , negative publicity it's just too much for a nation is just too much. How did underestimating Putin worked out for Europe so far? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellapenella Posted February 20, 2015 #43 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Actually, I would not be surprised if most of those fighting on the rebel side were conscripts in the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Hence why they've been able to use the equipment and put it to good use because of their experience with it. However, I do believe that Russia is offering more than military equipment. I would assume that the Russians are providing the rebels with strategic planning and intelligence. They have been . Putin was lying the entire time he had soldiers there on ground in Ukraine only they were not in uniform in the beginning ."said a source i know" they were arming rebels , of course . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellapenella Posted February 20, 2015 #44 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Don't jump the gun varelese . oh did I spell your name wrong. I'm so bad with that just ask shooma *shrooma lol varelse* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellapenella Posted February 20, 2015 #45 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Oh, Ukraine. Don't you know, it's all been done before? are you sure ? are you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellapenella Posted February 20, 2015 #46 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Russia has got tonnes of resources, Russia's military is huge what matters more is this is a man with nuclear weapons. And I don't know. I think his economy is feeling flustered and well he doesn't want NATO on his doorstep, he doesn't like that at all. i just hope it all ends well is all , for us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellapenella Posted February 20, 2015 #47 Share Posted February 20, 2015 How did underestimating Putin worked out for Europe so far? This why Nuclear weapons shouldn't be in the world . I don't really care that people think if they were not we'de have wars upon wars . There's just no excuse for any of this. None at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellapenella Posted February 20, 2015 #48 Share Posted February 20, 2015 And the crowd goes HA ! yeah O.K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellapenella Posted February 20, 2015 #49 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) Keyword "massive". It looks like Putin is running several boards with knights, castles and bishops while the everyone else just keep trading squares with the same old piece back and forth, back and forth going nowhere they haven't been before. Other considerations - Russia has a network of crime bosses Putin calls "friend" who can help circumvent and outfox sanctions. As for the US, there's nothing else we can do anyway. It's 100% out of our hands militarily. Not to mention any military interference would be a very unpopular move with normal republicans and all democrats that are tired of us sticking our nose into every single foreign soil conflict not going exactly the way we want. Thats why he's all cought up in santcions. I think that the major players to be watchful of are those with Nuclear. I don't care who they are I hope that it all settles peacefully for everyone . Certainly his people are feeling the economy collapse under them because of him. I realize they're most likely accustomed to it ,but still... I would never jump to a conclusion of the U.S having no part in solving world matters and issues such as the like of especially where Putin is of concern. Other countries and us are NATO forces and from what it seems to appear to be - Putin has been testing the waters of our alllies. We know that if one of them are ever- it's as we all are. So we'll see. So far he's bulling Ukraine . Everyone I know says they don't blame him for not wanting NATO on his doorstep. But I think NATO might be effective in someway in the near future .Even so , I have mixed feelings -about it's existence. Edited February 20, 2015 by Ellapennella 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellapenella Posted February 20, 2015 #50 Share Posted February 20, 2015 The only possible positive I can see from this tragedy and crime Russia is perpetrating is that IF Ukraine can make it expensive and bloody enough, maybe the little megalomaniac will be given some pause before he storms into another neighbor. One thing seems certain - Ukraine is alone and NATO is shown for what it has become. It will not surprise me if Putin did not attack a NATO member now just to prove his point. The world needs to stop him now before he gets any grander ambitions. It's an interesting situation. How do you deal with someone who has control of a nuke arsenal and who seems ready to use them? If you allow him to bluster and take what he wants, history has proven it will only whet his appetite and a stand will be made from a much worse position in time. Add to his ambition the ABSOLUTE useless and weak "leadership" of the US at this point in history and it makes for a sickening situation. i would have to say that it would be a suprise to me if he did attack an NATO alliance . That would mean he attacked all alliances . I think it would take a madman to truly attack an alliance of NATO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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