"There really shouldn't be public schools"

[preacherman76]

The poorer funded your schooling the less likely you are to get into college - thats a statistical fact.

Many poor people can never afford the college fees which been rich are not an issue, and many poor people will not take on a lifetime of debt on the offchance that it will lead to a better job.

Just read about the research which clearly lays out the effects of education inequality on social opportunity. The stats clearly support my case.

http://www.brookings...igher-education

Br Cornelius

The problem is deeper then that though. You can throw tons of money at any given school, but at the end of the day, if those kids are going home to fatherless households, were the Mom either has to work constantly or is a welfare drug addict, it isn't gonna help. The streets are raising these kids. The only way to fix this is to get people to look to change within. That's why they have the Jessy Jacksons, to tell em they are victims, and to keep them believing their problems are external more then internal.

[aztek]

The quality of education was definitely lower, my school had no AP classes, no electives, and almost no extra curricular activities outside of sports. All of those definitely hurt when applying to college and made getting into a good college difficult, most of those who did graduate went to the local college which while not a bad college in itself has rather low acceptance standards, you only needed to get a 880 SAT score in math and reading to get in. The only test that are the same are the standardized test, which since I lived in PA was the PSSA. That test is utterly pointless, in part because the teachers spent most of the time teaching just for the PSSA so the students would pass, teachers even helped some students cheat on it just to make sure the school got an acceptable pass rate. Lastly programs vary greatly between schools, my school only required 3 years of science, others required 4 for example to get a diploma.

yet, you made to college, and did not drop out like others in your town, from h.s., or later from college, you are still there, all of you started in same situation, but they failed , and you succeeded. what is their excuse? could it be because someone made right decisions and someone did not?

Edited February 24, 2015 by aztek

[Rut Roh]

So again, you are in favour of a society that favours its rich over the rest of society. To be rewarded for been born rich, and to hold down those who were born poor.

Wasn't that the tyranny your founding father stood against ???

Br Cornelius

No... They were standing up against the tyranny of the state. They were allowing the individual to acquire wealth and own land as apposed to the state granting it.

Also, a man or woman should not be punished for being rich. Neither should their children. And let us just say for arguments sake that they should be punished, as in your utopian world.... Who gets to decide how much is too much and what is "owed" to society? Oh, that's right, that humble incorruptible group called the government. No worries there. hehe

[Gunn]

Also, a man or woman should not be punished for being rich. Neither should their children. And let us just say for arguments sake that they should be punished, as in your utopian world.... Who gets to decide how much is too much and what is "owed" to society? Oh, that's right, that humble incorruptible group called the government. No worries there. hehe

Correct! Not if they're good capitalist and committed no financial crimes to get to where they are today. But when they're bad capitalist like the Bernie Madoffs or the convicted company CEO's of the world, who commit vulture capitalism or fraud, they should be punished; and every single damn cent should be taken away from them. Because you know they're screwing the system and messing it up for the rest of us. And I'm pretty sure there are some more out there who are still screwing the pooch and getting away with it. Meanwhile, the middle class is shrinking and has been shrinking because of this shady crap for the last 40 to 50 years.

[DarkHunter]

yet, you made to college, and did not drop out like others in your town, from h.s., or later from college, you are still there, all of you started in same situation, but they failed , and you succeeded. what is their excuse? could it be because someone made right decisions and someone did not?

Just because I made it with little doesn't make all schools equal.

I think this analogy is appropriate for this situation. Suppose you had a large group of people and they are to cut down trees. Some of the people are given chainsaws, some are given axes, and some are just given rocks. Just because some of the people given rocks can cut down a tree or two does not mean everything is equal and only dedication or decisions effects the amount of trees each person cuts down. The people given axes will still cut down more trees and the people with chain saws even more. In this analogy the people with chainsaws would be those who sent their children to private school, the axes those who went to good schools, and the people with stones the people who went to schools like mine.

Some people will always make wrong decisions or lack the dedication but when the odds are stacked that much against you the chances of success drop a lot and just cause a few outliers succeed doesn't mean everything is equal.

I hope this makes sense since I just got back from boxing practice and this sounded good in my head in my exhausted state.

[aztek]

Just because I made it with little doesn't make all schools equal.

no school is equal, and never will be, i have no doubts some kids that went to school you wish you went, think their school is a dump. and school few towns over is a lot better.

may be your school tought you something you do not even realise, like how to get things done with less.

Edited February 24, 2015 by aztek

[Guest Br Cornelius]

The problem is deeper then that though. You can throw tons of money at any given school, but at the end of the day, if those kids are going home to fatherless households, were the Mom either has to work constantly or is a welfare drug addict, it isn't gonna help. The streets are raising these kids. The only way to fix this is to get people to look to change within. That's why they have the Jessy Jacksons, to tell em they are victims, and to keep them believing their problems are external more then internal.

It the classic blame the victims argument restated.

The problems of poverty are there because people are poor not because they are intrinsically feckless.

Even divorce is increased because of poverty. Drug addiction and crime are directly correlated to poverty.

The only way to reduce the symptoms of poverty is to remove the driver - which is systemic poverty.

The best tool we have is education, and unfortunately its a long slow process.

However the one thing which is going to guarantee the stalling of the process is to defund education.

Countries with the best education systems have the most equal and stable societies. countries which want to eliminate their systemic poverty do so by investing heavily in education.

Br Cornelius

Edited February 24, 2015 by Br Cornelius

[Rut Roh]

It the classic blame the victims argument restated.

The problems of poverty are there because people are poor not because they are intrinsically feckless.

Even divorce is increased because of poverty. Drug addiction and crime are directly correlated to poverty.

The only way to reduce the symptoms of poverty is to remove the driver - which is systemic poverty.

The best tool we have is education, and unfortunately its a long slow process.

However the one thing which is going to guarantee the stalling of the process is to defund education.

Countries with the best education systems have the most equal and stable societies. countries which want to eliminate their systemic poverty do so by investing heavily in education.

Br Cornelius

But one key point that you are failing to understand is that those very same countries that you are pointing to most likely also have an overall stronger family core value than what we are talking about here. Personal responsibility is the most important fact that money cannot buy. See, over here, you can fail. It is supposed to be the driving force for participation and effort. Now, if a family raises its child/ children with no sense of responsibility or values, who do you think is responsible for that? Society? See, that is the problem with freedom.... failure is an option. If you take that option away... well then, freedom aint so free.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

You are introducing a moral and judgemental element to the discussion, its about utility - does educational investment bring benefits regardless of the original state. Does closing people out of a good education come with empirically measurable costs. The answer is YES to both.

Its simply good for a society to invest in its future by offering every individual the best start in life. Society as a whole benefits and ultimately saves money by diverting people away from crime and drug abuse.

I don't consider this issue in moral terms, just terms of utility.

Br Cornelius

[aztek]

how about you work hard to give your kid best education possible, do not wait for others to pay for your kid. cuz they wont.

i pay certain amount of property taxes a year to school district, and i want my taxes to go to schools in my district, where my kid goes, not anyplace else. this is how schools get funds, from school district taxes, (yes public school is not really free at the end of the day,) we pay for our kids schools. rich kids get better schools, and more funds because their parents pay for it, not because gvmnt thinks rich deserve more and fund their schools better. and we in our distrcit vote for those politicians that support our district, not the ideas of redestribution. it is a political suicide for a politician to even imply redestribution.

Edited February 24, 2015 by aztek

[Guest Br Cornelius]

how about you work hard to give your kid best education possible, do not wait for others to pay for your kid. cuz they wont.

i pay certain amount of property taxes a year to school district, and i want my taxes to go to schools in my district, where my kid goes, not anyplace else. this is how schools get funds, from school district taxes, (yes public school is not really free at the end of the day,) we pay for our kids schools. rich kids get better schools, and more funds because their parents pay for it, not because gvmnt thinks rich deserve more and fund their schools better. and we in our distrcit vote for those politicians that support our district, not the ideas of redestribution. it is a political suicide for a politician to even imply redestribution.

Its not about what the government thinks is good for people - its whats shown to be good for the country and the economy.

You do it because it works to make everyone richer. Its simply a matter of economic utility to have the best education possible for all citizens.

It hurts you Aztec when poor people are excluded from education because it ultimately cost more to pay for the welfare, the prisons and the cops to keep a lid on an unequal society. That ultimately comes straight out of your pocket. Do you know how much it costs to run that huge prison system ?

Br Cornelius

Edited February 24, 2015 by Br Cornelius

[aztek]

Its not about what the government thinks is good for people - its whats shown to be good for the country and the economy.

You do it because it works to make everyone richer.

Br Cornelius

lol, shown????? where?

[Guest Br Cornelius]

lol, shown????? where?

I gave a link earlier showing the costs of poor education system.

Br Cornelius

[aztek]

you mean brookings site? i've read it, it is full of general unsupported statments, but i do argee it does reflect reality some. however it does not adress 1 fundamental issue, how things are done in reality, no matter how you paint it, i will not want my taxes to fund school that my kids do not go to. that is all there is to it,.

yes, some towns, (again thanks to durkhunter for real life example) lost major employer, sometimes the only employer, so tax revenue is lower, so is the school funding. yes i'm sure there are plenty of towns in usa like that. but it does not change the fact that schools get moeny from people that use them. if you think gvmnt needs to step in and fix things, well, it does not fix things. the whole situation happened because gvmnt stepped in, one way or the other. so in real world, if you want to acheve something you will have to find ways to get there, i'm sure some people that went to such underfunded schools, in poor areas, have moved up, and acheved what they set their mind to, just as as i'm sure there are faiures in "good " schools.

whould you say your country educational model is beter than ours? thou i'm not sure you are aware of all aspects of our system.

Edited February 24, 2015 by aztek

[Guest Br Cornelius]

you mean brookings site? i've read it, it is full of general unsupported statments, but i do argee it does reflect reality some. however it does not adress 1 fundamental issue, how things are done in reality, no matter how you paint it, i will not want my taxes to fund school that my kids do not go to. that is all there is to it,.

yes, some towns, (again thanks to durkhunter for real life example) lost major employer, sometimes the only employer, so tax revenue is lower, so is the school funding. yes i'm sure there are plenty of towns in usa like that. but it does not change the fact that schools get moeny from people that use them. if you think gvmnt needs to step in and fix things, well, it does not fix things. the whole situation happened because gvmnt stepped in, one way or the other. so in real world, if you want to acheve something you will have to find ways to get there, i'm sure some people that went to such underfunded schools, in poor areas, have moved up, and acheved what they set their mind to, just as as i'm sure there are faiures in "good " schools.

whould you say your country educational model is beter than ours? thou i'm not sure you are aware of all aspects of our system.

Government job is to ensure the best outcomes for all its citizens - that trumps what you personally want.

But what you want is often short sighted, because to not address problems of systemic lack of opportunity will cost you anyway.

My country, Ireland, has an equal allocation of resources to each pupil taken from central taxation. This produces roughly equal outcomes and something like 70% of people go to college/university. There is a grant allocation system such that anyone can access University if they are good enough. There is a private sector which is highly subscribed and that is what been wealthy allows, but it only makes a marginal difference to overall outcomes. So yes I think we have a better system in Ireland.

Br Cornelius

Edited February 25, 2015 by Br Cornelius

[preacherman76]

It the classic blame the victims argument restated.

The problems of poverty are there because people are poor not because they are intrinsically feckless.

Even divorce is increased because of poverty. Drug addiction and crime are directly correlated to poverty.

The only way to reduce the symptoms of poverty is to remove the driver - which is systemic poverty.

The best tool we have is education, and unfortunately its a long slow process.

However the one thing which is going to guarantee the stalling of the process is to defund education.

Countries with the best education systems have the most equal and stable societies. countries which want to eliminate their systemic poverty do so by investing heavily in education.

Br Cornelius

Sorry BR but I know for a fact you are wrong. I live 10 mins away from a place called Newburgh Free academy. Its probably in the top 5 funded high schools in NY. Serves a very white rich community. It also happens to serve down town Newburgh, which is one of the highest pound for pound crime area ghetto's in NY. You can leave that high school well underway to being ready for all kinds of trades. Have all kinds of programs. I don't think they could possibly spend anymore money. Yet the ghetto is still the ghetto. In fact its gotten worse over the years. Back in the 70's black folk had to actually riot and protest to be welcome in that school. They won. And its changed nothing.

Edited February 25, 2015 by preacherman76

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Sorry BR but I know for a fact you are wrong. I live 10 mins away from a place called Newburgh Free academy. Its probably in the top 5 funded high schools in NY. Serves a very white rich community. It also happens to serve down town Newburgh, which is one of the highest pound for pound crime area ghetto's in NY. You can leave that high school well underway to being ready for all kinds of trades. Have all kinds of programs. I don't think they could possibly spend anymore money. Yet the ghetto is still the ghetto. In fact its gotten worse over the years. Back in the 70's black folk had to actually riot and protest to be welcome in that school. They won. And its changed nothing.

Crime has gone down in NY since the 1970's, I think there is the proof that counters your argument.

Br Cornelius

[preacherman76]

Crime has gone down in NY since the 1970's, I think there is the proof that counters your argument.

Br Cornelius

Not in the little town of Newburgh NY it hasn't. It has risen every year. Gang activity has gotten really bad over the last 5 years. These people go to the best high school money can buy. And I promise you there are several places I wouldn't even consider walking through.

[preacherman76]

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Newburgh-New-York.html

Take a look at these very troubling stats

[aztek]

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[aztek]

. So yes I think we have a better system in Ireland.

Br Cornelius

lets see, ireland population is 7mil, compared to usa 330mil+, your economy is worst off than ours, your unemployment rate 2x of ours, apperantly your "superior" educational model ain't worth anything. since it can't solve your problems, and education is only a tool for prosperety, not a goal, either you use wrong tool, or you can handle it. yet you think you know how to improve usa economy, lol, improve yours first, than we might just listen to you.

yes i know it is usa fault your economy is in the toilet, lol

Edited February 25, 2015 by aztek

[Myles]

I throw the blame on the parents. Many parents treat school as a babysitter. Amazing how many parents send their kids to school with incomplete homework and then defend their kid when the teacher calls home.

Most teachers want to teach more but they must go at the level of the slower students.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

you mean brookings site? i've read it, it is full of general unsupported statments, but i do argee it does reflect reality some. however it does not adress 1 fundamental issue, how things are done in reality, no matter how you paint it, i will not want my taxes to fund school that my kids do not go to. that is all there is to it,.

yes, some towns, (again thanks to durkhunter for real life example) lost major employer, sometimes the only employer, so tax revenue is lower, so is the school funding. yes i'm sure there are plenty of towns in usa like that. but it does not change the fact that schools get moeny from people that use them. if you think gvmnt needs to step in and fix things, well, it does not fix things. the whole situation happened because gvmnt stepped in, one way or the other. so in real world, if you want to acheve something you will have to find ways to get there, i'm sure some people that went to such underfunded schools, in poor areas, have moved up, and acheved what they set their mind to, just as as i'm sure there are faiures in "good " schools.

whould you say your country educational model is beter than ours? thou i'm not sure you are aware of all aspects of our system.

If it was the other way around i would be happy i am helping your kid get an education. Our future and our kids mean more to me than trying to keep a couple dollars in my pocket. I dont see how self centered some people can be.

[aztek]

Our future and our kids mean more to me than trying to keep a couple dollars in my pocket.

than i assume, you actually do something about it, not just "look how good i am" talk on the internet, lol.

yes i'm going to do whatever i can to keep my dollar in my pocket so i can spend it on my kid, i could not care less about your kid, giveme 1 reason why i should, it is your responcibility, so make a responcible thing and supprt your kid yourself, so no one else has to.