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Rafterman

Iran blows up fake US carrier

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Space Commander Travis

It's common logic to not want people who hate you and may be mentally unstable to have weapons that can blow you away.

indeed, which is no doubt exactly why Iran might feel that they need some credible deterrent against Israel.

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Space Commander Travis

It's the internet people should understand that no one can seriously follow up on every detail . I understand that. I still thank you though .What you do share I am able to take with me and have leads to follow up on to further information. I'm thankful about that . If you weren't not perfect I would worry . I've learned to ignor the people online that are stead fast in wanting for Iran to be armed with Nuclear weapons. I know the majority know how very dangerous that will be for the world. I think you're a good person who wishes the best for us all, that's just obvious to see about you.

ah, so you only listen to those who prey on your fears and don't want to listen to any other opinion that may try to make you slightly less anxious than you clearly are? You know that's what these people who you praise so admiringly are doing, they're preying on you by spreading anxiety and so convincing you that their way - bomb 'em all - is the only way. It's very insidious propaganda, it's a real shame if you have fallen for it completely.
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The Silver Thong

I bet its better Iran blow up a movie prop than Israel blowing up a real US ship,.

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Space Commander Travis

You can rest assured that Obama will never attack Iran. Israel might do but the US will never while Oby is in the Oval office. The fact that Saudi Arabia - the most anti semitic country on the planet is offering Israel air space to bomb Iran should be quite a warning flag. Doesn't that pique your interest even a little? I mean, I've heard of strange bedfellows but THIS is ridiculous. I have a lot of trouble actually believing that those here who speak against Israel and the US vis a vis Iran cannot know that Iran is dangerous. I think they are so completely wrapped up in their personal biases and politics that they will condone anything done by anyone if they perceive it as harming those 2 nations. What a surprise someday when they wake up to an Iranian Hegemon in the gulf. Sure, Bush can still be blamed, but it won't help it the slightest.

Do you see what I mean? Do you really taken this kind of, frankly paranoid, propaganda as being the voice of truth?

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Space Commander Travis

You find no threat from them as they begin massing IRGC on the Golan opposite Israel? No problem with them sponsoring Hamas, Hizballah and Assad? I agree that they have gone too far with their research and they cannot be stopped from having nukes now. But you seem rather sanguine about them being allowed to just do what they please when they have repeatedly proven that they want to dominate the Gulf region and control the flow of oil.

when they have ever proven that, let alone repeatedly? You remember those rhetorical questions I asked in the other now closed thread? When has Iran repeatedly threatened or attacked other nations? When have they show that they want to control the flow of oil?

(Oh, I forgot, you're probably ignoring me. Still, the questions can stand just so that your propaganda doesn't go unchallenged.)

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The Silver Thong

U.S.S. Liberty

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acidhead

Why was Mohammad Mosaddegh overthrown?

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Space Commander Travis

U.S.S. Liberty

That was a mistake. Even after they'd flown back at forth over it at mast top height about twenty times, and seen the U.S. flags that they were flying from every conceivable position, and signalled by lamp in English. But it's very easy for forces as experienced and highly trained as the Israelis to overlook such things and assume that it must be Egyptian because Egypt might possibly have had one or two ships somewhere.

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RavenHawk

I don't know why the West is all in a lather about Iran, anyways. It would seem we already have more pressing concerns.

There is no more pressing concern than Islam. As long as no reform takes place, the threat continues to exist. With all that has gone on with ISIS and you can’t figure that out? Just because Iran is Shiite doesn’t mean that the doctrine is all that different. Iran is simply the Shia version of ISIS.

Treating Iran as an equal among nations and according them the dignity of respect

If they would only act as they’ve earned dignity and respect.

an ancient, sophisticated and educated people deserve, would seem to me a more proper approach.

The ancient part has been usurped by a new matrix some 1400 years ago. As we’ve seen in Mosul, that new mindset wants nothing to do that history. Many of the educated youth are suppressed by the theocracy. Obama’s 2008 Cairo speech encouraged them to take to the streets and people died (je suis Neda). And when the youth needed Obama, he backed off of that red line, the first of many.

America needs to get over that Iran Hostage thing.

That is a difficult thing to do but evidently Iran hasn’t either.

I think inadvertently downing one of their airliners evened that score a long time ago.

Hardly. And it was blood on Iran’s hands. That was what they were hoping would happen. They sacrificed their own.

If Iran really wants nukes they will have them,

And you don’t see that as a concern? We shouldn’t be helping in their endeavor. Every nuclear nation has found the wisdom to not need their nukes. Iran does not have the wisdom.

and the conquest of Iraq showed them why they must have them.

I don’t think so. They were seeking nukes long before that. Chirac was trying to arm Saddam with Nukes to counter Iran. And Iran wants to dominate the region to pave the way for the 12th Imam.

Nothing like having your trigger finger on megatons of mayhem to forestall invasion.

Or egg it on…

That being the case, it behooves us to be speaking terms with them, rather than otherwise.

It behooves us to speak softly and carry a big stick.

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jeem

Just curious. ...

Why was Mohammad Mosaddegh overthrown?

Just curious. ...

Why was Mohammad Mosaddegh overthrown?

There is two version of it-

One he was overthrown because he tried to nationalize Iranian oil which went against BP's interest.

Another is he tried to seize power and was allying with the Islamist and Soveit so he need to be removed .

Not to mention the second version happen in a parallel universe.Suit yourself and take the pic.

From the looks of your post I am sure you lives in our universe

Edited by jeem

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RavenHawk

U.S.S. Liberty

Yes, I think everyone knew what you were referring to.

That was a mistake. Even after they'd flown back at forth over it at mast top height about twenty times, and seen the U.S. flags that they were flying from every conceivable position, and signalled by lamp in English. But it's very easy for forces as experienced and highly trained as the Israelis to overlook such things and assume that it must be Egyptian because Egypt might possibly have had one or two ships somewhere.

Ha ha. It is possible that it was a mistake; anyone can fly any kind of flag they please. Actually, I think it was intentional. Israel had to test our resolve to be an ally. What better way to do that? We had to earn their trust and now, we’re about to throw that away. But Bibi is stronger than Obama anyway. Obama would have to commit an overt act of treason (as opposed to the covert ones he’s been doing) to destroy our ties with Israel and then Bibi is smart to understand that Obama does not reflect the desires of nor represent the people of the United States.

Edited by RavenHawk
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RavenHawk

Why was Mohammad Mosaddegh overthrown?

He was the wrong man at the wrong time and in the wrong place. He was very likeable and I was all for his plans to nationalize oil. However, he was courting the Soviets and Islamists. He was not a strong enough leader to hold the Islamist in check and not allow himself to have become a puppet of the Soviet Union. It was vital for the stability of the region to keep Iran out of the hands of the Russians. It would have made things a lot easier if he had tried to make his deal with the US. There would have been a constitutional republic today instead of a theocracy. Then the Saudis would not have gained control of the oil market. With Israel and Iran as allies, the Wahhabists would have been marginalized and true reform could have moved through all of Islam. Spilled milk now.

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Sir Wearer of Hats

In order to earn their trust you let them murder a ship's worth of sailors?

Who were we allying with ... The Klingons?!?!

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RavenHawk

In order to earn their trust you let them murder a ship's worth of sailors?

Who were we allying with ... The Klingons?!?!

When your back is to the wall, you have to do desperate things. What better way to test our intentions…

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The Silver Thong

Why was Mohammad Mosaddegh overthrown?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08HMrHNECNc

Answer: you have to make a villian to fight a villan.

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Space Commander Travis

Hardly. And it was blood on Iran's hands. That was what they were hoping would happen. They sacrificed their own.

I don't think so. They were seeking nukes long before that. Chirac was trying to arm Saddam with Nukes to counter Iran. And Iran wants to dominate the region to pave the way for the 12th Imam.

:unsure2: Now this is either proof that you are an official representative of the Israeli government so you know things the rest of us ordinary people do not know, or, well, :no: and there's nothing much more than can be said. Edited by Valdemar the Great

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Space Commander Travis

Yes, I think everyone knew what you were referring to.

Ha ha. It is possible that it was a mistake; anyone can fly any kind of flag they please. Actually, I think it was intentional. Israel had to test our resolve to be an ally. What better way to do that? We had to earn their trust

So the U.S. should have given in to what was effectively terrorism? That's what it was, if this theory of yours is correct, it was pure terrorism to make the US Government do what the Israeli government wanted them to do. So the US should give in to terrorism (just as long as that terrorism's done by Israel)?

.. Oh, incidentally, I think probably, the wishes of the people of the United States are (despite all the ISIS hysteria) more closely represented by mr. O's cautious approach than the bloodthirsty do-whatever-Israel-demands hawkishness that you encourage.

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The Silver Thong

Yes, I think everyone knew what you were referring to.

Ha ha. It is possible that it was a mistake; anyone can fly any kind of flag they please. Actually, I think it was intentional. Israel had to test our resolve to be an ally. What better way to do that? We had to earn their trust and now, we're about to throw that away. But Bibi is stronger than Obama anyway. Obama would have to commit an overt act of treason (as opposed to the covert ones he's been doing) to destroy our ties with Israel and then Bibi is smart to understand that Obama does not reflect the desires of nor represent the people of the United States.

You think it was intentional on the Israeli side to try and kill americans in life boats that were injured. I think the world needs to give up on a nation that thinks they are some what supiorior as the choosen ones. The book is a lie yet again propaganda lives large. Israel was put were it is to create war

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Space Commander Travis

Is there, and I know this is veering away from the topic of Iran but it's related and it's a question that intrigues me, is there anything that Israel could do that the people who regularly excuse it for everything and justify anything on the grounds that "everyone hates them and wants to destroy them" would actually say that it had gone too far?

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stevewinn

Isn't that what I said? The sensibilities of the nations are just too different unless the weaker ones are bullied by the dominant ones. Then the UN does things like appoint representatives of nations that violate human rights on a regular basis on the Human Rights council. Hello?

So building a coalition wasn't *leading*? Under Bush, America was very much the leader. It's been under Obama that we've slid from being a leader. How many red lines can a President draw and not act before people lose faith in his leadership?

And that was news? It was long overdue. It should have happened in Iran in 1979.

Inaccurate, not faulty. Saddam had WMDs in the past and he would always have them in the future.

Finally you hit on something accurate. Phase IV was lacking. But in time they were figuring out how to do it. What we did was still much better than allowing Wahhabist influence undermine Baath party control. Oh wait that just happened since our retreat.

There were many Resolutions that called for any nation to take action if Saddam violated the ceasefire, which he did on numerous occasions. That is not spin.

Resolution 1441:

Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorizes Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to Resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area...

Actually, the Invasion of Iraq was a success at least until we cut and ran.

In reply to the bold text, The Facts stand today Saddam had no weapons of Mass destruction. the UN and the IAEA inspectors where correct in their assessment and investigation which concluded their was no viable WMD. Saddam had WMD in the past, how do we know this? - well because your government sold them to him to help him fight the Iranians.

As for your quote of resolutions mentioned above 678 and 660 they were in reference to the first gulf war, as highlighted by the dates, Its a tall order to actually believe they gave justification to launch a military operation against a non aggressor (Iraq) in 2003 without a further UN resolution which if you understand the UN process - would have been required before any action.

Where not going to get a conclusion on the legality of the war - because no UN member has requested it. and plus those involved hold veto's. the closest we've got was the quote from the Secretary general Kofi-Annan. (below)

Quote from the BBC NEWS.

The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has told the BBC the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter.

He said the decision to take action in Iraq should have been made by the Security Council, not unilaterally.

"I hope we do not see another Iraq-type operation for a long time - without UN approval and much broader support from the international community," he added.

He said he believed there should have been a second UN resolution following Iraq's failure to comply over weapons inspections. And it should have been up to the Security Council to approve or determine the consequences, he added. When pressed on whether he viewed the invasion of Iraq as illegal, he said: "Yes, if you wish. I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter from our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal."

http://news.bbc.co.u...ast/3661134.stm

The Iraq war of 2003 is the reason why we lost the war in Afghanistan. and why we've endured long drawn out conflicts. 13 years of conflict. and now US experts are talking about another decade long struggle against ISIS, and before we get a handle on the current problems people are looking to start a conflict with Iran.

You get the feeling the United States of America is losing its status in the world, there is no doubt the decline has started, Americans themselves must see and feel it, and like predicted in a bid to keep the machine moving, it will enter conflict after conflict as it tries to retain its place in the world, (as witnessed) but eventually it'll not only run the risk of bankrupting itself but also exhaust itself in the process, The USA has a choice in how it manages its decline, The United Kingdom is a good example of how to manage that decline from Superpower to Global power.

How much blood and treasure as the US spent on just these handful of crisis/conflicts and still people want to add more to that list.

Afghanistan.

Iraq.

Libya.

Syria.

Ukraine-Russia.

Edited by stevewinn
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joc

In reply to the bold text, The Facts stand today Saddam had no weapons of Mass destruction. the UN and the IAEA inspectors where correct in their assessment and investigation which concluded their was no viable WMD. Saddam had WMD in the past, how do we know this? - well because your government sold them to him to help him fight the Iranians.

As for your quote of resolutions mentioned above 678 and 660 they were in reference to the first gulf war, as highlighted by the dates, Its a tall order to actually believe they gave justification to launch a military operation against a non aggressor (Iraq) in 2003 without a further UN resolution which if you understand the UN process - would have been required before any action.

Where not going to get a conclusion on the legality of the war - because no UN member has requested it. and plus those involved hold veto's. the closest we've got was the quote from the Secretary general Kofi-Annan. (below)

The Iraq war of 2003 is the reason why we lost the war in Afghanistan. and why we've endured long drawn out conflicts. 13 years of conflict. and now US experts are talking about another decade long struggle against ISIS, and before we get a handle on the current problems people are looking to start a conflict with Iran.

You get the feeling the United States of America is losing its status in the world, there is no doubt the decline has started, Americans themselves must see and feel it, and like predicted in a bid to keep the machine moving, it will enter conflict after conflict as it tries to retain its place in the world, (as witnessed) but eventually it'll not only run the risk of bankrupting itself but also exhaust itself in the process, The USA has a choice in how it manages its decline, The United Kingdom is a good example of how to manage that decline from Superpower to Global power.

How much blood and treasure as the US spent on just these handful of crisis/conflicts and still people want to add more to that list.

Afghanistan.

Iraq.

Libya.

Syria.

Ukraine-Russia.

Not true steveo....Libya took Mustard Gas from Iraq...which means they were exporting their WMD just in case Bush was serious about attacking them. Iraq also 'parked' a good number of its fighter jets in Iran...that there were no WMDs then is not surprising...Sadaam was a master at the cat and mouse game...the fact that we didn't find any doesn't mean that they weren't there...it just means they weren't there anymore when we got there...you don't remember all the trucks suddenly moving around in Iraq before Desert Storm?

Edited by joc
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ellapenella

ah, so you only listen to those who prey on your fears and don't want to listen to any other opinion that may try to make you slightly less anxious than you clearly are? You know that's what these people who you praise so admiringly are doing, they're preying on you by spreading anxiety and so convincing you that their way - bomb 'em all - is the only way. It's very insidious propaganda, it's a real shame if you have fallen for it completely.

I hear what everyone is saying . But you continue to call the facts fear when they are not made in fear but because of the reality of what they are such as Iran and Hezbollah . What are the facts regarding these then from your eyes ? Does it differ from the majority ? Do you wish to pass it off as proaganda and mock everyone that understands the realness of it ? The only ones that are trying to prey on people here are those like yourself . Why is it that you wish to convince the world that that Hezbollah and Iran are nothing to beware of ?

Edited by Ellapennella

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GlitterRose

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if it was fake...why does anybody care?

I mean, it's obviously a message that they don't like us. So...point taken.

Edited by ChaosRose

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ellapenella

British Foreign policy is very similar to American foreign policy. which is not surprising because we share so many values. It's why we are always there holding the ****ty end of the stick. But We have to be careful in our friendship that we dont run the risk of not speaking out when the foreign policy is a flawed and wilfully sleepwalk into trouble.

We have a what is known as a" Special Relationship" , the trans-Atlantic alliance , one of the cornerstones of stability around the world. I see where you keep upholding the U.N even though the UN just doesn't work. But if you like it so much , you can have it . We'll give it to you

Edited by Ellapennella

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and then

We have a what is known as a" Special Relationship" , the trans-Atlantic alliance , one of the cornerstones of stability around the world. I see where you keep upholding the U.N even though the UN just doesn't work. But if you like it so much , you can have it . We'll give it to you

It would be a rather handsome addition to the bank of the Thames! Right next to the wheel ;)

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