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Rafterman

Iran blows up fake US carrier

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and then

You have to remember that this statement, while reprehensible, was made last July when the Israeli regime was shamelessly killing innocent palestinians by the thousand.

He was also quoted to say:

''We believe that the West Bank needs to be armed just like Gaza and those interested in the future of Palestine must become active in this field [guerrilla warfare] so that the suffering of the Palestinian people through their strength and their weakness due to the Zionist regime is reduced,” he said. “Some Western countries including America and filthy England defend with clarity the crimes that no ordinary person would. The President of America in the face of these child killings, destruction, torture and suffering of the people in Gaza, with a comical logic states that Israel has the right to defend itself! Don’t the Palestinians have the right to defend their lives and security?”

Source: http://www.independe...ls-destruction/

So obviously he was very emotional about this, he was pretty damn heated up and angry by the killings of civilians in the Gaza strip. These are his brothers and sisters still under Occupation with no indication of an ending in sight, so I can understand that, even though that certainly doesn't excuse his rant on destruction. I really don't see that as proof of an imminent attack on Israel though. At the end of the day, words are... just words.

WOW.... and if they aren't just words? This is what aggravates me the most - and this isn't personal toward you, just the mindset so many have on this conflict. They unerringly give a pass of "understanding" toward Israel's enemies because, basically, they believe whatever happens to Israel, she deserves. If you applied the same standard to ANY other nation you would immediately see how unfair it is. What we are watching is the stage being set for a major conflagration on this planet and all the players seem to be stumbling toward it mindlessly, as though they have no control. God said it would be this way: Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. (Zech. 12:2-3)

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NewAge1
WOW.... and if they aren't just words? This is what aggravates me the most - and this isn't personal toward you, just the mindset so many have on this conflict. They unerringly give a pass of "understanding" toward Israel's enemies because, basically, they believe whatever happens to Israel, she deserves.

I have nothing against the people of Israel, I just don't think the regime is the innocent victim you are trying to make us believe. They have their share of responsability in the conflict with Iran, their treatment of civilians and the belligerent Occupation of Palestine is still, in my view, the crux of the problem.

If you applied the same standard to ANY other nation you would immediately see how unfair it is. What we are watching is the stage being set for a major conflagration on this planet and all the players seem to be stumbling toward it mindlessly, as though they have no control.

Not exactly, threats and provacations have (unfortunately) always been part of International relations. It can get nasty if nothing is done to settle an issue, you're right. World Powers need fair policies, such that will ensure equal treatments and strike a balance. We need to hear both sides of a conflict, and find middle grounds. That's how you reach peace and avoid conflagration. Each side has it's needs and interests, it's own level of trust and willingness to compromise. One of Iran's deep frustration is that the West is so stunningly sold and baised towards the Israeli regime, the US and it's allies are willing to close their eyes on everything they do. Of course, Netanyahu knows this and use our bias to his advantage, even if that means undermining the President of the United States in a crucial negotiation with his ennemy. He wants to remain the King of the Middle-East and deny Iran's right to have a nuclear program. For decades now he used the same fearmongering tactic, but I think more people are starting to become more skeptical and see through it.

God said it would be this way: Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. (Zech. 12:2-3)

Resorting to the scriptures don't usually make for good arguments.

Edited by samus
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and then

I have nothing against the people of Israel, I just don't think the regime is the innocent victim you are trying to make us believe. They have their share of responsability in the conflict with Iran, their treatment of civilians and the belligerent Occupation of Palestine is still, in my view, the crux of the problem.

Not exactly, threats and provacations have (unfortunately) always been part of International relations. It can get nasty if nothing is done to settle an issue, you're right. World Powers need fair policies, such that will ensure equal treatments and strike a balance. We need to hear both sides of a conflict, and find middle grounds. That's how you reach peace and avoid conflagration. Each side has it's needs and interests, it's own level of trust and willingness to compromise. One of Iran's deep frustration is that the West is so stunningly sold and baised towards the Israeli regime, the US and it's allies are willing to close their eyes on everything they do. Of course, Netanyahu knows this and use our bias to his advantage, even if that means undermining the President of the United States in a crucial negotiation with his ennemy. He wants to remain the King of the Middle-East and deny Iran's right to have a nuclear program. For decades now he used the same fearmongering tactic, but I think more people are starting to become more skeptical and see through it.

Resorting to the scriptures don't usually make for good arguments.

Scriptures are not something I "resort" to samus, I mention them not to bolster a point so much as to attempt to warn people of what I and many others believe is unfolding in the world. I realize that most often here at UM it is a pointless gesture but one never knows. This little country on a tiny sliver of land is the focus of a vastly inordinate amount of attention throughout the world just as it was foretold to be in the "last days". In fact Israel's rebirth and return to the ancient home land is a miracle 2000 years in the making.

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Space Commander Travis

You have to remember that this statement, while reprehensible, was made last July when the Israeli regime was shamelessly killing innocent palestinians by the thousand.

He was also quoted to say:

''We believe that the West Bank needs to be armed just like Gaza and those interested in the future of Palestine must become active in this field [guerrilla warfare] so that the suffering of the Palestinian people through their strength and their weakness due to the Zionist regime is reduced,” he said. “Some Western countries including America and filthy England defend with clarity the crimes that no ordinary person would. The President of America in the face of these child killings, destruction, torture and suffering of the people in Gaza, with a comical logic states that Israel has the right to defend itself! Don’t the Palestinians have the right to defend their lives and security?”

Source: http://www.independe...ls-destruction/

So obviously he was very emotional about this, he was pretty damn heated up and angry by the killings of civilians in the Gaza strip. These are his brothers and sisters still under Occupation with no indication of an ending in sight, so I can understand that, even though that certainly doesn't excuse his rant on destruction. I really don't see that as proof of an imminent attack on Israel though. At the end of the day, words are... just words.

I love that. "Khameini's latest provocation". Yes, Israel hadn't done anything to warrant that provocation, had it. It had only invaded & occupied (for decades) land that it had no business being on, and ruthlessly and completely indiscriminately suppressed any resistance to that occupation. Really how Khameini would probably see it is similar to how Britain and America viewed the occupation of France during WWII.

Mind you, IsraelNationalNews.com doesn't sound like a news outlet that would be very free from bias, does it. It doesn't surprise me at all though that that's the kind of source And Then relies on for all his information.

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Space Commander Travis

WOW.... and if they aren't just words? This is what aggravates me the most - and this isn't personal toward you, just the mindset so many have on this conflict. They unerringly give a pass of "understanding" toward Israel's enemies because, basically, they believe whatever happens to Israel, she deserves. If you applied the same standard to ANY other nation you would immediately see how unfair it is.

But you're doing it yourself. (Yes, I know you're ignoring me but it doesn't matter). You say If you applied the same standard to ANY other nation you would immediately see how unfair it is, but that's exactly what you do all the time, you don't apply the same standard to Israel as you do to everywhere else (and exactly the same goes for Ravenhawk and Roofgardener). Israel gets treated with so much indulgence by every other country in the world, even the West, precisely because Israel is able to deploy the weapon of guilt whenever it wants. You allow Israel to have an unannounced nuclear program, you allow it to occupy other countries and behave with the utmost ruthlessness towards resistance, and you ever say that if it was to snap and launch a "pre-emptive" attack on any other country that'd be fine because they're only trying to defend themselves. You've even said that if Israel was to come into conflict with the U.S. you'd support Israel.
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jeem

Scriptures are not something I "resort" to samus, I mention them not to bolster a point so much as to attempt to warn people of what I and many others believe is unfolding in the world. I realize that most often here at UM it is a pointless gesture but one never knows. This little country on a tiny sliver of land is the focus of a vastly inordinate amount of attention throughout the world just as it was foretold to be in the "last days". In fact Israel's rebirth and return to the ancient home land is a miracle 2000 years in the making.

No this won't be a pointless gesture.You have to say this in the right place.As I have told you earlier people here are interested in politics not some doomsday prophecy from scripture.The correct section for discussing doomsday prophecy is Modern Mysteries New Age and Prophecies

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jeem

I love that. "Khameini's latest provocation". Yes, Israel hadn't done anything to warrant that provocation, had it. It had only invaded & occupied (for decades) land that it had no business being on, and ruthlessly and completely indiscriminately suppressed any resistance to that occupation. Really how Khameini would probably see it is similar to how Britain and America viewed the occupation of France during WWII.

Mind you, IsraelNationalNews.com doesn't sound like a news outlet that would be very free from bias, does it. It doesn't surprise me at all though that that's the kind of source And Then relies on for all his information.

Nah his main news source is palwatch.org the propaganda win of mossad

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RoofGardener

Offered a bounty to kill a British Citizen (meaning presumably Salman Rushdie?) So that's the sum total of the proof of their desire to dominate the Middle East, is it. That certainly proves that they want to destroy Israel with nuclear weapons. I'm really sorry I doubted you, Ravenhawk and And Then. Meanwhile, can you think of any ways in which the US, and/or its friend Israel, has sought to dominate the Middle East, and.or many other parts of the world? Use both sides of the paper if necessary.

I didn't speak for And Then or Ravenhawk, I made no claims on Irans territorial desires, or lack thereof.

I spoke to re-iterate MY viewpoint on Iran, which is that their leadership is (by Western norms) irrational, superstitious, unpredictable, cynical, violent and untrustworthy. I would most certainly be VERY worried if they had nuclear weapons. I do NOT feel the same way about the other Nuclear powers (with the possible exception of Pakistan) because - by and large - they are rational, civilised and humane.

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RoofGardener

I love that. "Khameini's latest provocation". Yes, Israel hadn't done anything to warrant that provocation, had it. It had only invaded & occupied (for decades) land that it had no business being on, and ruthlessly and completely indiscriminately suppressed any resistance to that occupation. Really how Khameini would probably see it is similar to how Britain and America viewed the occupation of France during WWII.

......

I would suggest that your analysis of the palestinian situation is incorrect. Be that as it may, however, I would seriously challenge your final sentence in the above.

Do you really, truly believe that the Iranians care one little bit about the Palestinians, other than as a useful anti-Israeli propaganda tool ?

In common with the Arab world, Iran made ZERO objection when Jordan conquered - and annexed - the West Bank, turning all palestinians into instant-Jordanians against their will, and forever destroying any chance of a Palestinian nation. But when JEWS entered the territory..... goodness gracious.....calamity....disaster.... illegal occupation... the Poor Palestinians ... much "outrage".

Perhaps I am doing the Iranian leadership a dis-service. Perhaps they are actually a paradigm of calm, rational thought, and highly-tuned to Western sensibilities. Perhaps pigs will fly from Tehran International Airport.

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Space Commander Travis

Perhaps one day you'll be able to think about Iran, or any other country than Israel, in some kind of rational way and not just what the Israeli Ministry of Propaganda and Palwatch tell you to, but I'm not holding my breath.

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keithisco

In common with the Arab world, Iran made ZERO objection when Jordan conquered - and annexed - the West Bank, turning all palestinians into instant-Jordanians against their will, and forever destroying any chance of a Palestinian nation. But when JEWS entered the territory..... goodness gracious.....calamity....disaster.... illegal occupation... the Poor Palestinians ... much "outrage".

In common with all Fundamentalist Israeli Supporters - your use of disinformation is entirely to be expected.

Only 2 Nations recognised the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank - Great Britain, and Pakistan. No Arab Nations supported the Jordanian expedition, and there was actually a lot of outrage from around the world - including Persia.

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RoofGardener

And in what way am I being Irrational, Vladimir ?

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RoofGardener

In common with all Fundamentalist Israeli Supporters - your use of disinformation is entirely to be expected.

I'm not a fundamentalist ANYTHING, Keithisco, and I am sorry that you feel it necessary to resort to this sort of crude labeling.

Only 2 Nations recognised the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank - Great Britain, and Pakistan. No Arab Nations supported the Jordanian expedition, and there was actually a lot of outrage from around the world - including Persia.

The principle of annexation was established two years previously in the Jericho Conference. America agreed to the broad principle. Iraq was uneasy with it and (successfully) lobbied King Abdulah (the Jordanian King) to delay formalising the annexation for a year or two. When Abdulah finally lost patience and declared annexation, the Arab World did absolutely NOTHING about it, other than a little light posturing. Even then, their complaints where not based on the fate of the "Palestinians", but where based on geo-politics. Simply put, Syria and Egypt feared that Jordan was getting too big for its boots.

Notwithstanding, no Arab nations - collectively or individually - made any serious steps to dislodge Jordan, or to place any sanctions against it.There where no motions in the United Nations.

Edited by RoofGardener
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and then

No this won't be a pointless gesture.You have to say this in the right place.As I have told you earlier people here are interested in politics not some doomsday prophecy from scripture.The correct section for discussing doomsday prophecy is Modern Mysteries New Age and Prophecies

I will state my opinions where they seem to fit imo jeem. It seems to be an irritant to you but I can't help that. As I said, I realize it's usually pointless but who knows? Someday someone might get a clue :) I'm really not trying to pull anyone's chain with this, nor am I attempting to proselytize. The world is in bad shape or hadn't you noticed?

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NewAge1
I spoke to re-iterate MY viewpoint on Iran, which is that their leadership is (by Western norms) irrational, superstitious, unpredictable, cynical, violent and untrustworthy. I would most certainly be VERY worried if they had nuclear weapons. I do NOT feel the same way about the other Nuclear powers (with the possible exception of Pakistan) because - by and large - they are rational, civilised and humane.

What about Kim Jong-Un and North Korea? They have made threats to the US on many occasions. And contrary to Iran, there is solid evidence that they have a stockpile of nuclear arms.

Edited by samus
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Space Commander Travis

And in what way am I being Irrational, Vladimir ?

If fanaticism is by nature irrational, as you certainly believe of Iran (and Islam in general), then there's your answer in your case. Edited by Norbert Dentressangle

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RoofGardener

If fanaticism is by nature irrational, as you certainly believe of Iran (and Islam in general), then there's your answer in your case.

Thats... elegant, Norbert... but perhaps a bit of a "Straw Man" argument ? To say nothing of evasive ?

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Space Commander Travis

An evasive straw man? I don't think so. You must surely admit you have a very selective view of what constitutes acceptable behaviour for a nation, seeing Iran as a monster wanting to dominate the middle east on the grounds of one speech its former President made a few years ago, and completely ignoring or trying to justify the things that Israel has done for many years, and what's surely most irrational of all is completely disregarding the contribution that Iran could make (and is making) in the fight against ISIS.

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RoofGardener

I disagree with your analysis, Norbert.

Firstly, I don't think I have EVER sponsored the viewpoint that Iran is trying to dominate the middle east. What I HAVE said is that I would not trust them to be responsible custodians of nuclear weapons.

Secondly, and in regard to Israel, I do not ignore what they do. If I try and justify them, it is only to dispel some of the irrational, one-sided, unfair, and even hyptocritical criticism of them that often crops up in these fora.

As for Iran's contribution in the fight against IS; that is based on religion, not political, humantiarian, or moral grounds. It is a two-edged sword. Let us not forget that - as official Iranian policy - the USA is the "Greater Satan", and the UK is one of several "Lesser Satans". And you want to grant Nuclear Weapons to a state with such a mentality ?

Recall that we supported Stalin during WW2. That does NOT mean that we admired his political system, or supported his brutal police state. The enemy of our enemies is NOT necessarily our friend. Anyway, what - precisely - has Iran DONE in the struggle against the Islamic State ? Has it sent in troops or equipment ? So far as I am aware, it has merely backed HEZBOLLAH, which - I gather - is mostly made up of Lebanese, Palestinian Arabs, Syrians, and Israelis.

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Space Commander Travis

I disagree with your analysis, Norbert.

Firstly, I don't think I have EVER sponsored the viewpoint that Iran is trying to dominate the middle east. What I HAVE said is that I would not trust them to be responsible custodians of nuclear weapons.

Secondly, and in regard to Israel, I do not ignore what they do. If I try and justify them, it is only to dispel some of the irrational, one-sided, unfair, and even hyptocritical criticism of them that often crops up in these fora.

As for Iran's contribution in the fight against IS; that is based on religion, not political, humanitarian, or moral grounds.

yes it is, you're right, i'm glad to recognize that, so therefore they could be a very useful asset if only Israel, and their American allies, weren't so blinkered. What has, you go on to ask rhetorically, Iran DONE in the struggle against Islamic State™? Well, they have ground forces up to brigade size committed, (one of their generals was killed by Israel fairly recently in fact), and they've carried out air strikes against Islamic State. So all in all, they've done just as much as America has and a sight more than Israel has. It might be useful to remember that Israel's contributions so far have been effectively in support of Islamic State, attacking Syrian government targets on the pretext that they might be holding arms that might be on their way to Hezbollah, and the odd Drone strike on people who they claim are associated with Hezbollah. They haven't really done anything at all about Islamic State. Edited by Norbert Dentressangle

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RoofGardener

A brigade sized ground force ? REALLY ? Well.... if that is the case, then I was wrong, and I apologise.

I have to say that I am initially sceptical; a Brigade is a HUGE formation ... around 5000 troops, usually with integrated logistics, comms, command, and possibly even its own embedded specialist units like artillary, tanks, transport and air controllers. Are you SURE Iran has mobilised such a force ?

I read this BBC article - about Iranian air strikes in co-ordination with the Iraqi government - with interest. It seems to reinforce your point.

As for the Iranian general; he was travelling with a Hezbollah military convoy, close to the Israeli security border. How was Israel supposed to differentiate that from a potential border attack ? Hezbollah have done that sort of thing before.

I'm not sure to what extent Israel COULD assist against Islamic State. I don't think it has any borders adjacent to IS conquered territory, and if it crossed into Syrian territory (or airspace) then it could whip up anti-Israeli feeling, which could even HELP the Islamic State.

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