Moon Gazer Posted March 27, 2015 Author #151 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I read a story a while back about a pilot who was depressed, he flew for fed ex and was in trouble at work and awaiting a hearing. He feared he would get fired. In a bid to provide security for his wife and children he got a seat as a dead head (is that what they call it when they hitch a ride on a flight?) and tried to attack the pilot and co-pilot. He planned to fly the plane for 30 minutes as the voice recording on this cargo aircraft was only 30 minutes, and then crash the plane, making it look like an accident. That way his family would get a large settlement payout for death in service. This was the first thing that came to my mind when I head that this plane was crashed deliberately. I wondered if he was suffering from some mental instability and crashed the plane hoping that it would be considered an accident and his family would get some kind of death in service payout from a pension or something. But he must have known details such as how long the voice recorder would be active for and that things like manually over-riding the door lock and putting the plane in to a descent would be able to be tracked. It's very early days with a lot of speculation. Authorities seem quite certain that he did it deliberately, but there are still a lot of questions as to why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted March 27, 2015 #152 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) Even his decent rate wouldn't send alarm signals to the Airbus, however, had It was either suicide, or, being a recent Muslim convert, (reportedly) his one man Jihad. In my opinion. Where has that been revealed? Edited March 27, 2015 by Norbert Dentressangle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted March 27, 2015 #153 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Even his decent rate wouldn't send alarm signals to the Airbus, however, had he come down at a steeper decent the plane is designed to pull the nose up if the airspeed reaches the overspeed limit. What he did was deliberate knowing how the airbus operates. It was either suicide, or, being a recent Muslim convert, (reportedly) his one man Jihad. In my opinion. Who reported this? Link please. Pamela Geller on her page, speculative. I just searched the German news, nothing remotely has been said, only on Pamela Geller's scribbling. Please provide a link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted March 27, 2015 #154 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) Appears that major news outlets are now taking the news out of Germany that the co-pilot was a recent convert to Islam as a fact, and not a rumor. He apparently was staying at a Mosque during and immediately after his training. well, well well - what a surprise (not)..... It still has to be shown that he was Radicalized. It could still just be a coincidence. perhaps the poor thing was a 'depressed' recent convert - - - /sarcasm... edit to say - I think European governments are keen to keep facts about Muslim terror attacks quiet if they can - and if they can get away with it will avoid placing the blame on Islamic Jihadists - only when they HAVE to go in that direction (of blame) they will - ie when it's too obvious to hide - it's part of the social engineering to do this....IMO . Edited March 27, 2015 by bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degen Posted March 27, 2015 #155 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Who reported this? Link please. Pamela Geller on her page, speculative. I just searched the German news, nothing remotely has been said, only on Pamela Geller's scribbling. Please provide a link. Muslims are to blame for everything with her. The saddest part is she has supporters who will take what she says as truth and spread it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted March 27, 2015 #156 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Appears that major news outlets are now taking the news out of Germany that the co-pilot was a recent convert to Islam as a fact, and not a rumor. He apparently was staying at a Mosque during and immediately after his training. It still has to be shown that he was Radicalized. It could still just be a coincidence. Wow, if that true a lone wolf terrorist of the Islamic jihadists.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted March 27, 2015 #157 Share Posted March 27, 2015 well, well well - what a surprise (not)..... perhaps the poor thing was a 'depressed' recent convert - - - /sarcasm... edit to say - I think European governments are keen to keep facts about Muslim terror attacks quiet if they can - and if they can get away with it will avoid placing the blame on Islamic Jihadists - only when they HAVE to go in that direction (of blame) they will - ie when it's too obvious to hide - it's part of the social engineering to do this....IMO . The only surprise is that it's taken 11 pages for you to go off on one of your usual wind-you-up-and-off-you-go rants. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted March 27, 2015 #158 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Appears that major news outlets are now taking the news out of Germany that the co-pilot was a recent convert to Islam as a fact, and not a rumor. He apparently was staying at a Mosque during and immediately after his training. It still has to be shown that he was Radicalized. It could still just be a coincidence. What major outlets? Michael Mannheimer? The Nazi right wing PI "news"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted March 27, 2015 #159 Share Posted March 27, 2015 For my opinion there are too less indications that can terminatory prove that the crash was deliberate caused by the co-pilot and the indications that are in place today may also fit to different scenarios. Until today there are no final statements given, because the investigations are still in process, by the organisations who are in charge with the crash investigations, means the BEA (Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses pour la sécurité de l'aviation civile) and the BFU (German Federal Bureau of Aircraft Accident Investigation). Just to remind, the theory that the plane has been taken deliberately into descent by the co-pilot was placed first by the french federal prosecutor Brice Robin during a press conference held on 25.03. p.m., so just one day after the crash and just a few hours after the CVR has been opened/read by 09:45 a.m.on 25.03 in Paris. Brice Robin stated that the co-pilot scenario is "the most plausible one" and so a prosecution file has been opened. So, the investigations are in process but are not finished yet. And the FDR still not has been found yet but the data from this device is required to give a full picture of the event. The co-pilot scenario is based on these facts: 1.) only one person in the cockpit, 2.) a locked door, 3.) knocking on the door and 4.) audible breathing of one person. But, even a person that passed out is still breathing, right? And the 4 points mentioned may also allow a scenario thats totally different to the given one. And there are also different informations about an emergency call given from the plane. The Aviation Herald provided different informations on the same page: "France's DGAC (French Civil Aviation Authority) reported the crew transmitted an emergency call just prior to the aircraft disappearing from radar near Bassinet." and some phrases later: "France's Air Traffic Control reported there had been no emergency call from the aircraft. There had been confusion initially, Marseille controllers declared Mayday for the aircraft when they observed the aircraft below safe altitude". http://avherald.com/h?article=483a5651&opt=0 I dont say that the suicide scenario is impossible but some events with A319/320/321 in the past (see below) might indicate that the actual crash has been caused by a combination of technical and human failure, means narcotic gases in the cockpit and an automatically initiated descent. Accident: Germanwings A319 near Cologne on Dec 19th 2010, smoke in cockpit, both pilots nearly incapacitated A Germanwings Airbus A319-100, (...) was on approach to Cologne when the crew reported smoke in the cockpit. The airplane continued for a safe landing. Paramedics needed to treat both flight crew at the airport and subsequently took them to a hospital. The cause of the smoke is unknown. http://avherald.com/h?article=434e753b&opt=0 Lufthansa A321 On Mar 24th 2015 Germany's Büro für Flugunfall Untersuchungen (BFU) reported in their November 2014 bulletin, that the first officer observed an irregularity in the properties of the speed indication just prior to reaching FL310 and disengaged the autopilot, the aircraft in response began a descent that lasted for about one minute before the crew was able to stop the descent at FL270. http://avherald.com/h?article=47d74074/0000&opt=0 Tuesday, Mar 17th 2015 22:16Z, A Jetblue Airbus A320-200, registration N729JB performing flight B6-2 from Fort Lauderdale,FL to New York JFK,NY (USA), was descending towards New York when the crew reported smoke in the cockpit and continued for a safe landing on JFK's runway 22L http://avherald.com/h?article=48353615&opt=0 Mar 27th 2015 00:11ZA Vueling Airlines Airbus A320-200, registration EC-KDT performing flight VY-1812 from Barcelona,SP (Spain) to Munich (Germany), was climbing out of Barcelona's runway 25L when the crew stopped the climb at 4000 feet reporting a burning smell on board. The aircraft returned to Barcelona for a safe landing on runway 25R about 8 minutes after departure. Emergency services did not need to intervene. A passenger reported there was noise of grinding followed by a burning odour. http://avherald.com/h?article=483c5227&opt=0 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted March 27, 2015 #160 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) For my opinion there are too less indications that can terminatory prove that the crash was deliberate caused by the co-pilot and the indications that are in place today may also fit to different scenarios. Until today there are no final statements given, because the investigations are still in process, by the organisations who are in charge with the crash investigations, means the BEA (Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses pour la sécurité de l'aviation civile) and the BFU (German Federal Bureau of Aircraft Accident Investigation). Just to remind, the theory that the plane has been taken deliberately into descent by the co-pilot was placed first by the french federal prosecutor Brice Robin during a press conference held on 25.03. p.m., so just one day after the crash and just a few hours after the CVR has been opened/read by 09:45 a.m.on 25.03 in Paris. Brice Robin stated that the co-pilot scenario is "the most plausible one" and so a prosecution file has been opened. So, the investigations are in process but are not finished yet. And the FDR still not has been found yet but the data from this device is required to give a full picture of the event. The co-pilot scenario is based on these facts: 1.) only one person in the cockpit, 2.) a locked door, 3.) knocking on the door and 4.) audible breathing of one person. But, even a person that passed out is still breathing, right? And the 4 points mentioned may also allow a scenario thats totally different to the given one. And there are also different informations about an emergency call given from the plane. The Aviation Herald provided different informations on the same page: and some phrases later: I dont say that the suicide scenario is impossible but some events with A319/320/321 in the past (see below) might indicate that the actual crash has been caused by a combination of technical and human failure, means narcotic gases in the cockpit and an automatically initiated descent. If there was smoke in the cockpit, this pilot would have been coughing, not relaxed breathing that was heard right up to the impact. Edited March 27, 2015 by docyabut2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted March 27, 2015 #161 Share Posted March 27, 2015 The only surprise is that it's taken 11 pages for you to go off on one of your usual wind-you-up-and-off-you-go rants. whereas you have ranted throughout the WHOLE thread - which is NO surprise - . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted March 27, 2015 #162 Share Posted March 27, 2015 "Germany’s Federal Aviation Office confirmed this morning that Lubitz had a medical condition noted in his pilot’s records which required him to have a regular examination. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013743/Germanwings-pilot-slipped-safety-net-devastating-consequences.html Not sure how credible this is but it is in line with his speculated emotional state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted March 27, 2015 #163 Share Posted March 27, 2015 If there was smoke in the cockpit, this pilot would have been coughing, not relaxed breathing that was heard right up to the impact. Might be but the inhalation of toxic gases does not always lead to coughing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted March 27, 2015 #164 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) "Germany’s Federal Aviation Office confirmed this morning that Lubitz had a medical condition noted in his pilot’s records which required him to have a regular examination. http://www.dailymail...nsequences.html Not sure how credible this is but it is in line with his speculated emotional state. Seems to be correct as this information has been given by the Office of Public Prosecutor in Dusseldorf a few minutes ago. Correction: the Office of Public Prosecutor in Dusseldorf confirmed that Lubitz was certified unfit for work by this doctor for the day he entered the plane. Edited March 27, 2015 by toast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted March 27, 2015 #165 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Seems to be correct as this information has been given by the Office of Public Prosecutor in Dusseldorf a few minutes ago. Correction: the Office of Public Prosecutor in Dusseldorf confirmed that Lubitz was certified unfit for work by this doctor for the day he entered the plane. Certified unfit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted March 27, 2015 #166 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) Seems to be correct as this information has been given by the Office of Public Prosecutor in Dusseldorf a few minutes ago. Correction: the Office of Public Prosecutor in Dusseldorf confirmed that Lubitz was certified unfit for work by this doctor for the day he entered the plane. I heard that to on the news, mmm what was he treated for? depression or a physical ailment.? Edited March 27, 2015 by docyabut2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrooma Posted March 27, 2015 #167 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Ryanair have made changes to their safety policies today in the wake of the French Alps crash. . Apparently, the pilots will have to p*** in a plastic bottle just like the rest of the passengers..... . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted March 27, 2015 #168 Share Posted March 27, 2015 http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/27/europe/france-germanwings-plane-crash-main/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted March 27, 2015 #169 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Certified unfit? Yes, certified unfit to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted March 27, 2015 #170 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) Yes, certified unfit to work. Unglaublich. How was it possible for him to get to fly? Somebody did not follow the procedure. Why was that not communicated to the employer? Edit: I just read the link by docya, apparently he destroyed the paperwork. In time of computer, ERP and all that, why is there not accessible database connection between doctors and employers? Edited March 27, 2015 by odas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Gazer Posted March 27, 2015 Author #171 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Unglaublich. How was it possible for him to get to fly? Somebody did not follow the procedure. Why was that not communicated to the employer? I'm not sure how it works elsewhere, but I am in the UK. I have only been signed off from work once by my doctor and he just gave me a sick note to pass on to my employers. As far as I know the doctor never sent anything directly to my employers. If it is the same there, and assuming early reports about this sick note are correct, I guess he just tore it up and went to work without informing his employer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted March 27, 2015 #172 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I heard that to on the news, mmm what was he treated for? depression or a physical ailment.? No informations yet about the reason but the investigators who searched through his two apartments have found a number of these sick certificates. This indicate that Lubitz had been certified unfit to work various times in the past but went on duty nevertheless as there are always 3 copies of the sick certificate, 1 for the health insurance organisation, 1 for the doctors office and 1 for the employer but no copy for the patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skookum Posted March 27, 2015 #173 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I'm not sure how it works elsewhere, but I am in the UK. I have only been signed off from work once by my doctor and he just gave me a sick note to pass on to my employers. As far as I know the doctor never sent anything directly to my employers. If it is the same there, and assuming early reports about this sick note are correct, I guess he just tore it up and went to work without informing his employer. Assuming this is the case it is totally ridiculous situation. Yes if I am signed off it is up to me to inform my employers. But I am not in the situation where many lives depend on my mental competence. Surely if you are a commercial pilot a doctor should have to report ANY health issues that may effect your performance. It is simply ridiculous to send them home with a sick note, again this is no doubt going to be down to patient confidentiality. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Gazer Posted March 27, 2015 Author #174 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Toast - As you are in Germany can you confirm what the situation is with sick notes? Would the pilot have been given it to pass on to his employer or should they have sent it directly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted March 27, 2015 #175 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Unglaublich. How was it possible for him to get to fly? Somebody did not follow the procedure. Why was that not communicated to the employer? It was he who didnt followed the procedures. And its not the duty of the doctors here in Germany to inform the employer. Now the question may rise for what reason he got/had sick cerifificates even if he didnt stayed away from work. I think he just went to the doc to get recipes for restricted medicals and not to get sick certificates. Edit: I just read the link by docya, apparently he destroyed the paperwork. In time of computer, ERP and all that, why is there not accessible database connection between doctors and employers? Even if such connection might had helped on the issue here, there is no need for a direct connection in between the doc and the employer. Such procedure would just absort manpower in doctor's offices and at the employers end and nobody would accept the additional costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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