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Germanwings airliner crashes in French Alps


Moon Gazer
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this is 17th a320 that has crashed, since they came out.

Interestingly described by an aviation expert on TV earlier that the A320 had a 'relatively good safety record'.

I am certainly no expert but when people use the word relatively with aircraft it does make you raise an eyebrow.

Out of 6,452 of the A319/320/321 family since they first came out in 1988.

One theory that seems quite plausible is sudden decompression, so they had to lose height as quickly as they could (the rate of descent shows that they were clearly under control), but sadly the mountains came up to meet them.

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Interestingly described by an aviation expert on TV earlier that the A320 had a 'relatively good safety record'.

I am certainly no expert but when people use the word relatively with aircraft it does make you raise an eyebrow.

In context the word means in comparison with similar types. And it is very safe, as the link I put up in this thread proves.

But, things go wrong. Still a safe type though.

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snip

Edited by toast
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I don't understand ?

No emergency radio call to the control tower ?

No change on its aviation transponder to emergency mode ?

These are both rehearsed and practiced proceedures in an emergency.

Either the pilot didn't know he was descending, or he didn't care, or his radio's where out ???/

It doesn't seem to make sense ?

Apparently pilots are trained to to firstly try and safely fly the plane. Dependant on what the emergency is, the pilot and co-pilot could have been very busy, hands on, trying to control the plane. That would have been their priority, comminicating that there was an emergency would have come after (or before they were all hands on, but maybe the emergency happened very quickly?)

I really feel for the family and friends, how devastating :(

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Out of 6,452 of the A319/320/321 family since they first came out in 1988.

One theory that seems quite plausible is sudden decompression, so they had to lose height as quickly as they could (the rate of descent shows that they were clearly under control), but sadly the mountains came up to meet them.

It's an interesting thought, Norbert. Still puzzling though, because - according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabin_pressurization - the built-in passenger oxygen masks would have been able to cope at up to 40,000 ft.

Having said that, they only work for 15 minutes or so. Accordingly, perhaps he DID need to descend ?

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It's an interesting thought, Norbert. Still puzzling though, because - according to http://en.wikipedia...._pressurization - the built-in passenger

oxygen masks would have been able to cope at up to 40,000 ft.

Having said that, they only work for 15 minutes or so. Accordingly, perhaps he DID need to descend ?

Oxygen masks do not help in case of a sudden decompression: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontrolled_decompression

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How about the plane ran out of fuel? these budget airlines are like buses, the pilots like bus drivers, they do the same route four or five times a day. complacency can kick in. planes on auto pilot. not enough fuel in the tanks, pilot and co-pilot asleep. plane runs out of fuel. alarms go off or don't, fault sensor. before they know it its falling from the sky.

Would it ever be possible to fit ejector seats to these planes? instead of single seats the seats come out in rows? it would at least give people a fighting chance. i hate flying myself for this very reason.

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How about the plane ran out of fuel? these budget airlines are like buses, the pilots like bus drivers, they do the same route four or five times a day. complacency can kick in. planes on auto pilot. not enough fuel in the tanks, pilot and co-pilot asleep. plane runs out of fuel. alarms go off or don't, fault sensor. before they know it its falling from the sky.

Would it ever be possible to fit ejector seats to these planes? instead of single seats the seats come out in rows? it would at least give people a fighting chance. i hate flying myself for this very reason.

Wasn't there a case in the USA where the ground crew screwed up the metric conversion for fuel?

Not sure about the ejector seat idea, you first on that one lol. I have visions of somebody aggressively trying to recline their seat and sending me out of the roof of the plane with them.

Edited by skookum
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Would it ever be possible to fit ejector seats to these planes? instead of single seats the seats come out in rows? it would at least give people a fighting

chance. i hate flying myself for this very reason.

Ejection seats are too heavy, too big and too expensive to be operated in commercial airliners. Also such devices would require a totally new and different

fuselage design/setup.

I remember about some studies (Boeing??) decades ago to equip commercial airliners with a gigant parachute but this concept wasnt realised due to, as

always, economical reasons. Of course, such device would not help in all cases possible, but it would make a difference to come down with, lets say,

20meters per seconds than with 442m/sec (free fall from an altitude of 10k meters).

Such devices are on the market for small airplanes and here in Germany all Ultralight airplanes must be equipped with such systems.

http://www.magnumparachutes.com/

(I was a passenger on an UL plane some years ago but even the parachute system didnt prevented me from a 45 minutes long panic at the highest level possible.)

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The biggest single piece of evidence is that the flight reportedly did not deviate from the path set at cruising altitude.

That does not suggest mechanical error. It suggests that the pilots were either dead or incapacitated.

They are now saying that the window for the decent could've been up to 9 1/2 minutes.

It looks to me like what could have happened, was there was just enough time to take the plane off automatic, before the pilots were incapacitated. The plane then flew itself into the ground.

The overriding question then becomes, what could have incapacitated the pilots so quickly?

My guess would be, possibly a bomb placed in such a way that it would damage the electronics which were also responsible for deploying the oxygen masks. They suffocated or lost consciousness before they could change the flight path or communicate.

It reminds me a little of flight MH 370. If true, then we would be looking at possibly a remote controlled device of some kind. In the case of flight 370, the pilots had just enough time to turn back for home. That would mean that the second left-hand turn we heard about was either an error in the Malaysian military radar report, or we were deliberately lied to, or one of the pilots briefly regained consciousness just long enough to turn the plane the second time.

Edited by Raptor Witness
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It's an interesting thought, Norbert. Still puzzling though, because - according to http://en.wikipedia...._pressurization - the built-in passenger oxygen masks would have been able to cope at up to 40,000 ft.

Having said that, they only work for 15 minutes or so. Accordingly, perhaps he DID need to descend ?

Oh yes, that's why they need to get down to lower altitude and divert to the nearest airport as quickly as possible.
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The biggest single piece of evidence is that the flight reportedly did not deviate from the path set at cruising altitude.

That does not suggest mechanical error. It suggests that the pilots were either dead or incapacitated.

They are now saying that the window for the decent could've been up to 9 1/2 minutes.

It looks to me like what could have happened, was there was just enough time to take the plane off automatic, before the pilots were incapacitated. The plane then flew itself into the ground.

The overriding question then becomes, what could have incapacitated the pilots so quickly?

My guess would be, possibly a bomb placed in such a way that it would damage the electronics which were also responsible for deploying the oxygen masks. They suffocated or lost consciousness before they could change the flight path or communicate.

It reminds me a little of flight MH 370. If true, then we would be looking at possibly a remote controlled device of some kind. In the case of flight 370, the pilots had just enough time to turn back for home. That would mean that the second left-hand turn we heard about was either an error in the Malaysian military radar report, or we were deliberately lied to, or one of the pilots briefly regained consciousness just long enough to turn the plane the second time.

As long as you remember that this is a pure guess. There are other more likely possibilities. Keep talking bombs and people start to accept the assumption. Right now with no terrorist organisation stepping forward to take "responsibility", one would be looking for a private individual having done it. Not impossible but highly unlikely.

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Of course people will automatically say "Bomb!" because it's exciting. Actually it's probably less likely, since it clearly made a controlled descent, which certainly wouldn't have happened if a bomnb had taken out the pilots.

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AOL, meanwhile, has what you might think at first glance was an exclusive;

But of course, what it is is the usual rent-an-"aviation expert" (what qualifications do you need to call yourself that?), and what he's saying, in fact, is "I've got no idea". So not at all a misleading headline there then.

(And is that the creepiest voiceover you've ever heard? Surely it's the same voice that does Thank you for calling, Please select from one of the following options..")

Edited by Norbert Dentressangle
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The biggest single piece of evidence is that the flight reportedly did not deviate from the path set at cruising altitude.

That does not suggest mechanical error. It suggests that the pilots were either dead or incapacitated.

They are now saying that the window for the decent could've been up to 9 1/2 minutes.

It looks to me like what could have happened, was there was just enough time to take the plane off automatic, before the pilots were incapacitated. The plane then flew itself into the ground.

The overriding question then becomes, what could have incapacitated the pilots so quickly?

My guess would be, possibly a bomb placed in such a way that it would damage the electronics which were also responsible for deploying the oxygen masks. They suffocated or lost consciousness before they could change the flight path or communicate.

It reminds me a little of flight MH 370. If true, then we would be looking at possibly a remote controlled device of some kind. In the case of flight 370, the pilots had just enough time to turn back for home. That would mean that the second left-hand turn we heard about was either an error in the Malaysian military radar report, or we were deliberately lied to, or one of the pilots briefly regained consciousness just long enough to turn the plane the second time.

I think MH370 was cyber hi-jacked and this is why the cabin crew pulled the communication boards from their slots. That only works if the cyber-hack is coming from outside the plane. A passenger may have done it using a USB stick plugged into the inflight entertainment systems. If the cabin crew were locked out from controlling the aircraft due to a cyber attack it would explain the circumstances surrounding the crash.

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I think MH370 was cyber hi-jacked and this is why the cabin crew pulled the communication boards from their slots. That only works if the cyber-hack

is coming from outside the plane. A passenger may have done it using a USB stick plugged into the inflight entertainment systems. If the cabin crew

were locked out from controlling the aircraft due to a cyber attack it would explain the circumstances surrounding the crash.

I know that some A/Ls provide USB ports for device charging purposes but I dont think that it will be possible to get access to the aircrafts systems

via these ports.

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I think MH370 was cyber hi-jacked and this is why the cabin crew pulled the communication boards from their slots. That only works if the cyber-hack is coming from outside the plane. A passenger may have done it using a USB stick plugged into the inflight entertainment systems. If the cabin crew were locked out from controlling the aircraft due to a cyber attack it would explain the circumstances surrounding the crash.

:blink:
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A controlled descent from 32k feet to 10k feet in just 8 minutes, while remaining on course, would indicate loss of cabin pressurization and while an emergency, it wouldn't be considered a dire one since the cabin had enough passenger air to be fine (possibly a little lightheaded) but the aircrew, who are provided with much more robust, positively pressurized mask (in case of smoke in the cockpit) with built in microphones and a couple of hours of air, would be fully in control and communicating with center while looking for the closes landing field.

At 10:39 they were at 9,975' MSL in the alps which provides enough air for passenger health and keeps you out of the mountains (digne-le bains highest point in 6,579' according to wiki). The continued descent to 6,800' in the Massif des Trois'-Eveches region with a mountain top at 9714' makes zero sense in my scenario above unless they were making for a runway with no radios working.

I hope the boxes tell them something because the debris field looks massive with not many large parts left.

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A controlled descent from 32k feet to 10k feet in just 8 minutes, while remaining on course, would indicate loss of cabin pressurization and while an emergency, it wouldn't be considered a dire one since the cabin had enough passenger air to be fine (possibly a little lightheaded) but the aircrew, who are provided with much more robust, positively pressurized mask (in case of smoke in the cockpit) with built in microphones and a couple of hours of air, would be fully in control and communicating with center while looking for the closes landing field.

At 10:39 they were at 9,975' MSL in the alps which provides enough air for passenger health and keeps you out of the mountains (digne-le bains highest point in 6,579' according to wiki). The continued descent to 6,800' in the Massif des Trois'-Eveches region with a mountain top at 9714' makes zero sense in my scenario above unless they were making for a runway with no radios working.

I hope the boxes tell them something because the debris field looks massive with not many large parts left.

It is indeed a mystery. A controlled descent would not have taken place without them making radio contact. It is the lack of radio contact which is odd. Many theories but nothing more.

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Strange indeed... and a VERY curious observation from the radar controllers.

..Flightradar24 said the airbus was descending at a rate of about 3-4,000ft per minute, which, it said, was standard for an airport approach....

This from the BBC Article

Huh ? Airport approach ?

What ... on this type of plane .. could cause it to go into "airport approach" mode ? Is this an autopilot function ?

Is it possible for the computers to have gone gaga and tried to 'approach' a non-existent airport ?

According to the on-site rescuers, the plane was pulverised. They have ruled out a major explosion; the plane appeared to have ploughed into the ground under thrust, as though it was just "normal flight".

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Pure speculation but the lack of any feedback on the controls seems to spook some pilots reading other accident reports.

I know it is an American article and they are likely to be Boeing biased but the Air France 447 crash manuscript seems to see the crew in utter confusion with the lack of instrumentation. Equally the lack of feel from the controls seems to make it extremely hard for a second pilot to see the first is making an error.

In the 1988 A320 crash the crew were put to blame but some reports say the pilot said the altimeter was reading 100ft when the actual was only 30ft.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a3115/what-really-happened-aboard-air-france-447-6611877/

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We can only wait and see what tid-bits they get from the box`s If they ever find the others !

:innocent:

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We can only wait and see what tid-bits they get from the box`s If they ever find the others !

:innocent:

Just read an article claiming that one of the pilots can be heard banging on the door to be let back in while the plane was crashing, so he got locked out.

link

So either the doors are auto-locking and the co-pilot had some kind medical emergency which incapacitated him, or the co-pilot locked the door and did it on purpose.

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Just read an article claiming that one of the pilots can be heard banging on the door to be let back in while the plane was crashing, so he got locked out.

link

So either the doors are auto-locking and the co-pilot had some kind medical emergency which incapacitated him, or the co-pilot locked the door and did it on purpose.

Yes It just Hit the News ! Looks Like a Passed out Co-Pilot or Suicide ,Black out Ect Like you said ! Really Sad !

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The mystery deepens...

Probably an established routine that one of the pilots had after the plane reached cruising altitude, as apparently it's not uncommon for one to leave the cockpit in Europe, leaving only one pilot inside.

Imagine the terror of the passengers watching this unfold.

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