Roswell Revisited

[skyeagle409]

Of course it involved aliens, the USAF claimed the wreckage they found was from an alien craft. That's involving aliens. In the same way sayingRichard Nixon nce met Leonard Nimoy involves Spock.

The Air Force doesn't cover up downed classified projects by reporting the down classified project is a flyiing saucer. The name of the game is to deflect attention away from a classified crash site, not bring in the eyes of the whole world to a location that is suppose to be a secret.

[skyeagle409]

100mg of lithium daily should help fix that problem then

You can't change reality.

[Degen]

What is wrong with that report? It says that Project Mogul ballon a top secret project by the US Army Air Forces and yet, Project Mogul balloons and their experiments were revealed in newspapers and recovered by civilians for rewards because Project Mogul balloons were nothing more than research balloons. That is not indicative of a classfiied program and I have been involved in classified programs to know when a report is false. Youcan find similar reports when the Air Force had claimed that a weather balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident, which was trashed in 1994. You have to understand when the Air Force is pulling the wool over your eyes.

As I have said before, knowledge allows a porson to know when to hold 'em and when to throw 'em.

Classified projects are not publicized in newspapers nor even photographed, and yet, you can find a number of photos of Mogul balloon trains and details of their experiments in newspaper articles. That is not how it works in the real world of classified projects. For an example, I have been called in by the Air Force OSI from time to time to vouch for the characters of my co-workers who were tagged for assignment to secret bases and there were a few others who came from secret bases. You can be assigned to a secret base and still be denied access to certain locations.

What is presented in that introduction is laughable to those of us who know better and you don't cover-up a downed classified project by reporting that the crash site is that of a flying saucer. The name of the game in classified circles is to draw attention away from a classified crash site, not bring the focus of the eyes of the whole world to a classified crash site by reporting that the crash site is that of a flying saucer.

I often wondered what is happening in the minds of those who have allowed themselves to be duped so easily by the Air Force on some of the most ridicule explanations imaginable. About the same time that military personnel were roaming around the Roswell crash sites, flying saucers were overflying Muroc AFB, CA. Here is part of the report and note the date.

http://muller.lbl.go...ogulReport.html

As reported in the January-February 1995 Skeptical Inquirer, a September 1994 Air Force report strongly supported the theory that the “UFO” debris found by rancher Mac Brazel in 1947 northwest of Roswell, New Mexico, was in fact a remnant of a balloon flight launched as part of a top-secret program called Project Mogul. The possible connection between the Roswell Incident and Mogul was first realized by researcher Robert G. Todd, and independently by Karl T. Pflock.

Recently, Charles B. Moore, one of three surviving Project Mogul scientists identified in and interviewed for the Air Force report, spoke to the New Mexicans for Science and Reason (NMSR) in Albuquerque. He discussed the background of the project, the New York University (NYU) balloon flights, and the Roswell connection. He provided new details that would appear to virtually clinch the idea that the debris Brazel found was indeed from one of the Project Mogul flights that Moore helped launch.

http://www.csicop.or...d_project_mogul

You can diregard because Project Mogul was not highly classified at all, which was evident in the newspapers when photos of Mogul balloons and details of their experiments were published for all to see and read. That is not the way classified projects are conducted..

You do know things get declassified dont you? Or can you actually prove it was not classified at that time?

You can't change reality.

And yet that is what you are trying to do.....

Edited April 16, 2015 by Degen

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

The Air Force doesn't cover up downed classified projects by reporting the down classified project is a flyiing saucer. The name of the game is to deflect attention away from a classified crash site, not bring in the eyes of the whole world to a location that is suppose to be a secret.

No, they create a narrative about UFOs that they can control and use to discredit genuine experts/sightings when needed.

You saw a UFO? Was it like the one at Roswell? The WEATHER BALLOON! *argument dismissed*

You say there are aliens? Yeah, little grey men like at Roswll. CRASH DUMMIES! *argument dismissed*

Every so often, they change the explanation. What does that do? It adds to the discredit of the UFO side. It makes them look like flip-flop mechants.

[stereologist]

On the contrary, he descibed objects that we did not have in our closet and airspeeds that we had yet to achieve in manned aircraft. Simple historical facts, you understand.

No matter how you spin the fact remains that you have posted false claims in this thread about nonexistent reports. You can pretend that posting material completely irrelevant to the issue is meaningful, but you have claimed the existent of reports that do not exist. Everyone reading this thread knows that is what you have done.

[stereologist]

<snipped material unrelated to the issue at hand>

You posted a claim of a report in this thread that does not exist just as you have done in other UFO threads.

Furthermore, you pretend I have something to do with a nonexistent report. Everyone reading this thread knows I have not claimed the existent of any reports. Thus your post is a falsehood.

[stereologist]

Even 1200 mph was far beyond mankind anything that mankind had yet to achieve with manned aircraft. Simple historical facts, you understand.

Do you acknowledge that the 1700mph post you made was wrong and that Arnold reported a an estimate of 1200mph?

If so are you going to stop promoting the 1700mph error?

We'll discuss the estimate as a separate issue.

[stereologist]

Actually, that is moot by the fact that man had yet to achieve Mach 1 flight during the time Kenneth Arnold's sighting became known, much less flew at 1200 mph at anytime then.

Another pathetic attempt to divert attention away from your spin.

You claimed that Arnold made an estimate as you posted "to the best of his knowledge."

That is a fantasy you concocted in an attempt to support a rather crude estimate of great uncertainty. There is good reason to believe that Arnold's estimate was crude and could have been off by a factor 3 to 4 making the estimate as low as 300mph.

You appear to have started this issue by posted a bogus claim that Arnold estimated 1700mph. That attempt at purposefully posting an inaccurate value was thwarted. I still wonder how long it took for you to find that mistake and replace the actual estimate of 1200mph with a purposeful deception. I simply have not bumped into anything other than 1200mph and I keep looking. The longer I look the more intentional I believe the deception to be.

[skyeagle409]

You do know things get declassified dont you? Or can you actually prove it was not classified at that time?

It was not classified at the time because Mogul balloons were sometimes recovered by civilians for rewards and some cases, Mogul balloons were not recovered at all. In addition, the name, Mogul, can be found in unclassified balloon records. It has been claimed that the name; Mogul, was classified, but how many times can you find the name, Mogul, in this unclassified Mogul balloon record?

Dec 11 1·led. Oklahoma City. '1Taited for weather to lift. Unable to leave in time to reach

Alamogordo before dark. At Air Base hotel tonight. Equipment from Johns Hopkins Unicersity

transferred to MOGUL plane, including warhead of •r-2. 4 scientists & crew, including Delgano?

• Called Jimmie at Fairview, Okla.

Dec 12 Thurs. Left Oklahoma City in C-54 at 0800 CST. Arrived at Alamogordo about 11 RMT.

l"'et Major Pritchard a.t air base. C-54 unloaded warhead material first then all MOGUL eqpt

which went to North Hanger. Went over to Prichard's office, met Major r-~aguire? and talked

over prospects of serups. Woody and Phil worked on equipment pm. Went up in L-J with Sgt

Mack looking over country of proposed sites. ~AC corporal launched at 4 pm. Worked on

equipment tonight. Staying at BOQ.

That is another hint that Project Mogul was not classified Top Secret. We can take a look here as well.

The Mogul project was so classified and compartmentalized that even Moore didn’t know the project’s name until Robert Todd informed him of it a couple of years ago.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/roswell_incident_and_project_mogul/

The article said that Project Mogul was so secret that not even Charles Moore was aware of the project's name, which is strange considering the contents of the following letter. Now, read this unclassified letter and tell us who was head of Project Mogul.

The name on that unclassified letter as to who was head of Project Mogul was none other than Charles Moore.

[skyeagle409]

No, they create a narrative about UFOs that they can control and use to discredit genuine experts/sightings when needed.[/qluote]

When a highly classified F-117 stealth fighter crashed near Bakersfield, CA., the Air Force said the crash site involved a conventional aircraft, not a flying saucer. That is how it is done. If the Air Force told the news media that the crash site involved a flying saucer, what would have been worldwide reaction?

You saw a UFO? Was it like the one at Roswell?

It was orange and circular. It flew in from the east, past over the base slightly to the north of my position and disappeared behind a hill.

That's right and I got that from those who were there as well when I was in Texas.

CRASH DUMMIES! *argument dismissed*

The Air Force's crash dummy argument was dismissed by the Air Force's own project officer of the High Dive experiments. Check it out.

The Lt. Colonel who was a major contributor to the Air Force's official 1997 study that concluded that the Roswell ET crash of 1947 is a "myth"- now states that the Air Force's Roswell report is itself a lie. The Colonel goes further to state that what he really believes to be true is that aliens actually did crash to Earth decades ago! He adds that he was "used" and that the the author of the Air Force report "was on a mission" with no interest in discovering what really happened at Roswell.

In the Air Force's publication Roswell Report: Case Closed (authored by Intelligence Officer Captain James McAndrew in 1997) the Roswell crash is debunked.

http://2012endgame.b...-admits-it.html

After reading the report, it was very clear that the Air Force sought the deceive the public again, this time, test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s.

Edited April 16, 2015 by skyeagle409

[skyeagle409]

No matter how you spin the fact remains that you have posted false claims in this thread about nonexistent reports.

You are incorrect again.

[skyeagle409]

Do you acknowledge that the 1700mph post you made was wrong and that Arnold reported a an estimate of 1200mph?

He said 1200 mph, which was still far beyond the airspeed that any manned aircraft could achieve at that time.

<snipped material unrelated to the issue at hand>

Simiply, you don't have it together.

[skyeagle409]

Maybe it wasn't aliens at all. Maybe it was one of these ?

Yes this is a real post by Skyeagle409. http://www.unexplain...ic=273723&st=75

I like this one better. Ever wondered why it couldn't fly?

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

I like this one better. Ever wondered why it couldn't fly?

The materials didn't match the specifications of the technology.

In effect, it needed an industrial revolution in order for there to be the ultra-strong, ultra-light materials needed for it's construction.

I wonder if it could work now, in the day-and-age of carbon nanotubes and 3D printers and the like.

Maybe it was ahead of it's time.

[skyeagle409]

You do know things get declassified dont you? Or can you actually prove it was not classified at that time?

And yet that is what you are trying to do.....

I wanted to add that I noticed you used a reference from CSICOP. It is apparent that you do not know of the amusing history of CSICOP, which made itself a laughing stock.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

I wanted to add that I noticed you used a reference from CSICOP. It is apparent that you do not know of the amusing history of CSICOP, which made itself a laughing stock.

What ... like Bobby Bob Lazar, MUFON, Billy Meier.....

[DONTEATUS]

Saucer=Cup.

Weather=Balloons.

Ribs= B.B.Q

Unexplained=Mysteries.

This thread= Party Not !

[psyche101]

Looking in the records, there is no record for a Project Mogul balloon train flight #4.

No, there are no records for the MOGUL research flight, the research flight was cancelled and the service flight was the replacement, there are records for a MOGUL service flight.

MOGUL consisted of research and service flights, the latter was the flight you refer to as #4.

I cannot believe how many times that has been repeated to be frank.

Correct me if I am wrong, but did you are one time admit that there was no Mogul balloon involved?

I have moved past the MOGUL research flight theory to move onto the superior hypothesis put forth by Lost Shaman concerning an Intelligence operation as it answers more question than any mainstream hypothesis.

[psyche101]

Yes he did, but that does not dismiss the fact that he became upset at the way he was treated by the Air Force after he issued his flying saucer report.

Mate that only makes Roswell even more unlikely, pardon the pun.

Did you know Moores sighting inspired the cover of Keyhoe's book, The Flying Saucers Are Real? Moore wrote to him about balloon flights reported to have caused flying saucer reports, and other incidents which might have been caused by balloons. And if that does ot cement Moores position on Flying Saucers and Roswell in particular, he also coauthored the book, UFO Crash at Roswell: the Genesis of a Modern Myth, with Benson Saler and Charles Ziegler.

He saw UFO's himself, and yet still would not consider the Roswell incident a crashed alien spaceship.

Because UFO's are not spaceships, they do not go into, or come from space. Not a single one has even been proven to do so.

Edited April 17, 2015 by psyche101

[psyche101]

According to Professor Google, Mach 1 was broken in October 1947.

Bah Google Humbug, The Right Stuff showed us Chuck Yeager did it, a man of steel.

Mate, see that one, it is brilliant.

[psyche101]

It is amazing that the Air Force managed to dupe people into thinking that military personnel had confused balsa wood and metal foil are remains from a flying saucer, materials that the military was already well familiar with.

It is more amazing that UFOLogy has duped you into thinking a balloon is not a balloon, and the naming of the project designates whether a balloon is a balloon or not.

Typical weather balloon from the time frame:

MOGUL Balloon

Look the same to me Sky.

You want to tell me and the rest of us curious dickens what the difference is between the balloon in the first picture and the seconds?? That is the big cover up right there.

Not very impressive to be honest. Looks like the same thing to me, like I have been saying for years now.

You have got to be kidding me mate.

[psyche101]

If you had read my post, you would have read that Kenneth Arnold backed out before the program because of the Air Force.

No, he backed out due to the reaction Keyhoe's as libbing had. CBS cut him off, not the Air Force. Read your own link.

"This program had been carefully cleared for security reasons....public interest was served by the action taken by CBS."

Link to official letter from CBS.

http://www.nicap.org/cbs_letter.htm

Donald Keyhoe was about to reveal what the government knew about UFOs. it was done in the interest of national security according to CBS. Now, for the rest of the story.

No he was not, he told us what he wanted to say, again, in your own link.

On Jan. 28, 1958, Major Keyhoe sent a form letter to the NICAP membership list informing them that what he was about to say when he was cut off the air was:

In the last six months, we (NICAP) have been working with a Senate committee investigating official secrecy on Unidentified Flying Objects. If open hearings are held, I feel it will prove beyond doubt that the flying saucers are real machines under intelligent control.

He was expressing his (rather uninformed) opinion on UFO's and that he had been working with a committee to determine the true nature of UFO's. Like most Science Fiction driven hypothesis in the infant stages of UFOlogy, he turned to ships from other planets. Now that we know that no planet in our solar system holds life, as Mars and Venus were suspected to do, and we have found other planets that might have life on them are just so far away that the type of travel envisaged is plainly ludicrous and defies physics, that hypothesis has a place in Science Fiction alone today. It is not a viable hypothesis.

And a spaceship the size of a Volkswagen Beetle - ridiculous!!

Storm in a B cup.

Edited April 17, 2015 by psyche101

[psyche101]

Looking at his records, there is no data collection for a Mogul balloon train #4. What did Moore say when first asked if his balloons were responsible?

I gave you the records, after the fact, but official records. What is your problem with them?

When Moore was approached about Roswell he said

The Base boys (meaning military) Hated the NYU boys being on their turf, and he would not put it past them to insist that a balloon was a flying saucer just to spite them. There was much animosity between the Military and NYU and he suspects that is the cause of many of the rumours about aliens and spaceships.

Service balloons were not Mogul balloons beause service balloos were expendable. In other words, there was no reason for the Air Force to claim that it recovered a flying saucer over an expendable reserach balloon that did not carry a rawin device of balsa wood nor metal foil.

Yes service flights were [art of MOGUL, you are just completely wrong there.

The service flight carried both a sonobuoy and a RAWIN, that is why there was a chase plane involved when the array was too far for the theodolite to track it.

Being expendable had nothing to do with it, or recovery. Recovery is a bonus and still sought for most expendable components.

That was not a Mogul balloon flight #4. That was a service balloon flight. Let's hear what Moore had to say about service balloons.

Yes I have pointed that out to you in painstaking detail far too many times now. You are the one who has the problem here, had the full research flight taken off it would have been #4, as it was stripped back and only a service flight took off, #4 was the replacement name to track that flight.

You make a big deal that means nothing out of the number 4. It means nothing mate. What you seem to keep missing is it was never meant to mean anything. UFOlogy thought there was an angle there a couple of decades ago, but it was nothing, you are just repeating a failed claim to do with configurations. It has nothing to do with the documented Service Flight.

As noted earlier, there is no flihgt record nor even data records for a Mogul balloon train #4, and since service balloons were expendable, there was no reason to concoct cover stories for them, especially decades later.

Yes, there was plenty of reason, you just refuse to accept it because it deflates this argument that actually means nothing. Service Flights were MOGUL flights, being expendable is irrlevent.

[psyche101]

Just to let you know that a televised interview was conducted with a former KGB agent who mentioned that the Roswell story is what brought special attention to the Soviet Union, particularly to the attention of Joseph Stalin.

No, that is nonsense. Not only that, you do not "have to let me know" You need to answer the post which asked for where there was public information in newspapers and the like explaining that MOGUL would be used to spy on Russia's nuclear development.

No such thing exists does it, because the data and nature of MOGUL was classified, as the Cold War insisted that MOGUL was a secret project, and is far greater reasoning than saying danger tags on spent equipment means the project was not secret. Back to the Government Laptop without a hard drive. That is what you have at the end of the day with the danger tag argument, and you are pretending there was top secret stuff on it at one point, whether there was or not.

And what were Project Mogul balloons? Nothing more than research balloons that were sometimes recovered by civilians, and in one case, stolen, according to the Mogul balloon records of A.P. Crary. And let's not forget that photos of Mogul balloons and their experiments were publicized in newspapers. The Air Force said the program was highly classified and yet, they allowed the purpose of their experiments to be published in newspapers around the country.

They were weather balloons mate. Weather balloons, now where have I heard that term before....... thats right, MOGUL used weather balloons didn't it.

No, the data was classified Moore was a Professor from New York Uni, he was not military and part of the compartmentalisation of the project. NYU were the best meteorologists around so they were contracted for the project, and not let in on the objective, just performance characteristics.

The Air Force did a fantastic job of taking the most absurd cover stories and use those ridicules cover stories to duped the public.

UFOlogy did an amazing job of duping you into thinking a weather balloon is not a weather balloon.

The rest of us are good with it, you seem to be the only one struggling with the fact that MOGUL balloons were just weather balloons.

Let's stop there. in 1994, the Air Force said the reason for the Roswell cover-up was to cover-up a downed Mogul balloon train #4. The question for you is: where is the cover story for the Mogul balloon recovery of Sid West? In fact, where are the cover stories for other Mogul balloons that were recovered by civilians for rewards?

Lets not stop right there, you could answers the question first, which is the right thing to do.

Do you feel the West had no idea that Russia had a nuclear program 5 years after it was started? MOGUL was necessary to national security, and was superseded by a better method involving a plane and a collector. When the radioactive fission products from the test were detected by the US Air Force, the US began to follow the trail of the nuclear fallout debris. The development was inevitable.

And THAT is what got Stalins attention, not some fake alien story!! After Truman's announcement, they were stunned as they did not know that that the US had a surveillance system for detecting the tell-tale signs of a nuclear test and they wanted secrecy to avoid giving the United States an incentive to accelerate its nuclear weapons activities.

You see, it is like this, the Air Force did a brilliant job of duping Roswell skeptics into thinking that Mogul balloons and their experiments were highly classified, yet photos of Mogul balloons and the nature of their experiments (nuclear explosion detections) were published in newspapers.

And yet you cannot find a single reference in all your links publically announcing the MOGUL would be used to spy on Russia's nuclear program as asked. So common, yet you cannot find a single instance.

Mate, smells like BS to me.

I have to hand to the Air Force, it can feed the most absurd explanation and there will always be those who will take the bait and run away with it. And, how long did the Air Force feed its weather balloon bait to the Roswell skeptics before it threw that weather balloon bait into the trash bin in 1994?

Nowhere near as bad as UFOLogy who managed to convince folks that this:

is not the same things as this:

Even though all one requires is a working set of eyes to do so. People want to believe in aliens really badly, so they will go so far as to deny that which is laid out in front of them. Anyone can see they are not different, and the cover up claim is a storm in a B cup.

[psyche101]

By that time, the Air Force will have come clean on the Roswell incident, and there will no longer be cover stories for that incident. Of the three cover stories, the Air Force trashed one of those cover stories in 1994, and there are two to go.

How many years has UFOLogy been promising that?

And how many years has UFOlogy been claiming "disclosure is any day now"

How long can they keep people shelling out money for something that is obviously not going to happen, and is just imagination??

What has happened with time, is we have uncovered some UFO's that are black ops, natural phenomena such as sprites and aerial plasmas which appear solid and metallic, and also appear on RADAR and exhibit the behaviour people attribute to intelligent control via electromagnetic principles. The Hessdalen Project being the cutting edge and slowly demystifying the UFO phenomena.

How about we just have a bloody drink hey? If an alien shows up, I'll drink his whopping grey head under the table.