Roswell Revisited

[Astra.]

I am sure you will love it.

Sure will...

[psyche101]

Sure will...

You could also save time and look at any one of a hundred cut up interviews already dissected here, not like the claim is going to change or anything. But perhaps you might learn something new about Bob Lazar LOL.

Good old appeal to authority, it never fails to impress you does it. Not mush of a substitute for real evidence I find.

[Astra.]

To echo Psyche...

Cheers,

Badeskov

Thought I heard a little squeak coming from somewhere.

[psyche101]

Thought I heard a little squeak coming from somewhere.

Well I never considered Bade as "cute" but hey, it looks like you changed my mind with his photo.

Bade, keyboards must be a mongrel of a thing for you!

Edited April 15, 2015 by psyche101

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Well I never considered Bade as "cute" but hey, it looks like you changed my mind with his photo.

Bade, keyboards must be a mongrel of a thing for you!

He uses a pogo stick, it's why he takes forever to post.

[psyche101]

He uses a pogo stick, it's why he takes forever to post.

LOL!!

That is wicked awesome, I will not be able to read Bades posts agin without thinking of this.

Well done melad

Now tell me about how Harte posts..........

[skyeagle409]

Yet you keep omitting and hiding from the record about Crary service flight for some reason, and constantly say no balloon took off, but that one surely did.

It's very clear for all to see. The Air Force said that it was a Mogul balloon #4 that was launched on June 4, but balloon records show that no Mogul balloon flight #4 occurred, and I might add that June 4, was a full month before Brazel's discovery and at no time did he see any debris on the Foster ranch before July. And it is all understandable because there are no data records for the Mogul balloon flight #4.

I might add that a service balloon was NOT the Mogul balloon train flight #4 the Air Force had claimed. You will also notice that the balloon record show that the only payload was a sonobuoy and no rawin device of balsa wood nor metal foil.

[psyche101]

It's very clear for all to see. The Air Force said that it was a Mogul balloon #4 that was launched on June 4, but balloon records show that no Mogul balloon flight #4 occurred, and I might add that June 4, was a full month before Brazel's discovery and at no time did he see any debris on the Foster ranch before July. And it is all understandable because there are no data records for the Mogul balloon flight #4.

The flight named #4 did not take of, a service flight did and that was a MOGUL service flight.

Do you deny service Flights were MOGUL flights?

What your big problem is that Moore suggested a research flight MAY have reached the Foster ranch with the data he gave. From there you pretend service flights did not exist, which is what we have documented as being released, and that is where your argument falls to pieces.

I might add that a service balloon was NOT the Mogul balloon train flight #4 the Air Force had claimed. You will also notice that the balloon record show that the only payload was a sonobuoy and no rawin device of balsa wood nor metal foil.

What Moore claimed you mean. The USAF supported his position as a professional in the field and being someone who was heavily involved with MOGUL.

I have no idea what was stripped from #4 and used on the service flight, neither do you, and if I could prove a RAWIN was on it, you would just dismiss it anyway. Standard configurations are not always the criteria in a pinch. Which the service flight was after #4 was cancelled.

[skyeagle409]

What about this post though???

That was Tim Printy's fault for not doing his homework properly.

You are so dense that you don't even realize that Tim wasn't even correcting himself but that I had forced him to reject what Pflock had written which Tim was using as a source for the Statement that was corrected (by rejecting Pflock's statement).

Using Pflock was a mistake on his part. This is what Tim posted before his correction.

Smith may have flown to Kirtland but not in 1947. A C-54 could not land at Kirtland during this time period because the runway was too small!

Which eventually led to this.

When the Los Alamos airport began operations on September 1, 1947, it was nothing more than an unlighted 4950-foot dirt airstrip with a tar paper shack for a terminal; at its elevation of 7150 feet, the strip was far too short for a C-54 (Pflock 100)

Since Tim had a reference website that was referenced by a number of people, it was his responsibility to make sure he had his act together.

On another note, it seems that neither Tim nor Pflock were aware of short field takeoff and landing techniques that pilots practice. Pflock mentioned a runway length of 4950 feet, but have you ever seen a C-5 take off in 3000 feet? At high altitudes, you don't take off in higher temperatures if you don't have to and there was nothing to indicate that the cargo would have brought the aircraft to its gross weight anyway. In addition, you make adjustments to the fuel load to allow for a safe takeoff run. I have seen it many times before and a good example is where heavily loaded B-52s took off at UTapao whereas they took on additional fuel needed to complete their mission.

Edited April 15, 2015 by skyeagle409

[lost_shaman]

Sky,

You told Tim he was wrong. I readily admit that. But that was all you did.

I did the fact checking and presented the facts that forced him to make his correction.

I assume you could have done that yourself but you did not. I did. And at the time I did it more or less to prove you were right, but it was still me who did it and not you!

[skyeagle409]

The flight named #4 did not take of, a service flight did and that was a MOGUL service flight.

The Air Force specifically said Project Mogul balloon train #4, but there are no records for such a flight. That flight was cancelled on June 3 for the same reason it was cancelled on June 4, which once again, was a full month before Brazel discovered the debris on the Foster ranch, and at no time did he discovery wreckage on the Foster rance before July.

Do you deny service Flights were MOGUL flights?

Of course. Where's the data record for Project Mogul balloon flight #4? Let's take a look here.

The balloon that was found on the Foster Ranch consisted of as many as 23 350-gram balloons spaced at 20 foot intervals, several radar targets (3 to 5), plastic ballast tubes, parchment parachutes, a black "cutoff" box containing portions of a weather instrument, and a sonabuoy (Atch 3).

And yet, none of those items were recovered on the Foster ranch. I might add that such equipment also have ID labels and serial numbers attached and lettering in English that even Brazel could have read. In other words, there was no way they could have been confused as wreckage from an ET flying saucer, but then again, there was no wreckage on the Foster ranch before July anyway.

What your big problem is that Moore suggested a research flight MAY have reached the Foster ranch with the data he gave. From there you pretend service flights did not exist, which is what we have documented as being released, and that is where your argument falls to pieces.

To make it plain and simple, there was no balloon wreckage on the Foster ranch. Let's take a look at this report.

Report on Project Mogul

Synopsis of Balloon Research Findings

by JAMES McANDREW, 1st Lt, USAFR

Project MOGUL was classified Top Secret and carried a priority level of lA. (5)

http://muller.lbl.gov/teaching/physics10/Roswell/USMogulReport.html

Now, let's do a review from an unclassified balloon record to see just how highly classified Project Mogul was.

July as equipment was not ready. 100 tanks Helium obtained from Amarillo Monday evening.

Also radiosonde receivers set up by NYU personnel Monday but were not operable. Test 7

at dawn on July 2 with pibal 1 hr first following with

Winds were very light

and balloons up between A air base and mountains most of time. Included cluster of met balloons. Follewed by C-54? for several hours & finally landed in mountains near road to Cloudcroft. Before gear could be recovered, most of it had been stolen.

http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/homeland_defense/UFOs/roswell.pdf

A Mogul balloon was left lying next to a road until someone decided to take that so-called highly classified balloon train home as a gift,That is not the way a classified program is suppose to be conducted.

Edited April 15, 2015 by skyeagle409

[skyeagle409]

What Moore claimed you mean. The USAF supported his position as a professional in the field and being someone who was heavily involved with MOGUL.

Were you aware that Charles Moore became upset at the Air Force after he reported tracking a flying saucer?

[skyeagle409]

Here you go.

Can you please state which newspaper recorded and displayed the data, or the mission objective of spying on Russia - you know, the part that was secret about MOGUL.

You will notice that there is no data record for a Project Mogul balloon flight #4. Perhaps, that data record for Project Mogul balloon flight #4 was abducted by aliens.

Go back and read my post where the purpose of the experiments was to gather nuclear explosion data. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the United States was the only country at that time to possess nuclear weapons and common sense says that it was not conducting such experiments that were published in newspapers around the country, in order to detect its own nuclear test.

The part that was secret you mean?

Let's take a look at this newspaper story where a policeman recovered a Mogul balloon.

Policeman Recovers Mogul Balloon

New York Times, Oct 1, 1948 "Balloon Staggers Down to Brooklyn Tavern,

A MOGUL balloon "floated blithely over the rooftops of Flatbush . . .causing general public excitement . . . before it came to rest on top of a [brooklyn] tavern." Recovered by policeman.

You might want to do a review from this link.

My link

How secret can it get than that?!

Edited April 15, 2015 by skyeagle409

[skyeagle409]

To echo Psyche, simply no. Some of us here have and refuted the nonsense for a better part of a decade. And it has been solidly refuted.

Cheers,

Badeskov

The nonsense provided came from those who first claimed that a weather balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident, that is, until the Air Force trashed its 47-year weather balloon claim in 1994.

The Air Force took the same folks for another ride to the cleaners after replacing its weather balloon with a Mogul balloon train #4 that never was according to the balloon records of A.P. Crary, and not to mention those same folks took another trip to the cleaners after the Air Force released its 1997 Roswell report.

Imagine, the Air Force managed to convince some folks, other than its 1950s test dummies claim, that people in 1947 confused accident victims in 1959 as aliens, which I might add, was just before JFK took office as President of the United States.

[skyeagle409]

Lets take a closer look shall we, you know me mate, I am always good for supporting information.

With Lost Shaman as inspiration and the stirling debates he has furthered concerning the abilities of the human eye, it seems to me that normal vision would not be able to see an object that subtends an angle of less than 0.2 second of arc. Arnold said that the objects were 45 to 50 feet long right? So they would have had to be much closer than he had estimated (20-25 miles) or he would not have been able to make them out at all. And as they had to be much closer than Kenneth Arnold estimated, his timed speed would be incorrect, and the speed would not be 1,700 mph, but more like 400 miles per hour, which as you know is well within the range of the speed of a jet.

Arnold wrote this telegram to the Government himself, you can see he said he did not think these were alien craft.

Here you go, the words of the man himself put into writing. Nothing about Aliens there at all.

Considering that the U.S. government did not have such exotic flying vehicles with such performance levels, common sense would dictate that the objects he saw were not ours. Were you aware that Kenneth Arnold was invited to the Armstrong Circle Theater in 1958. Were you aware that the program he was invited to was about UFOs? Did you know that information was to be released that the UFOs in question were those of extraterrestrials as known by the U.S government? Apparently, just before that ET revelation was to be made, CBS censors pulled the plug. Kenneth Arnold backed out at the last moment when he felt the Air Force was rigging the program.

When CBS was asked why they pulled the plug on Live TV just before that announcement was to be made, they said that it was done in the interest of national security.

.

Edited April 15, 2015 by skyeagle409

[skyeagle409]

You keep failing to show us an Newspaper that published MOGUL results, of a Newspaper that stated MOGUL was intended as a tool to spy on Russian Nuclear Development.

Have you found that paper yet? That would cement the rumours you have been throwing around.

You can find in it right here.

#63

It was no secret that the United States was the only country in the world that possess nukes at that time, and it was no secret that the objective of the experiments, which were highly publicized in newspapers around the country, dealt with the detection of nuclear explosions. Question is; whose nuclear explosions were the United States seeking to detect?

It should be of no surprise that there may have been Soviet agents in the United States at that time capable of reading English. After all, when the Air Force released that story of a captured flying saucer in 1947, it brought special attention of the Soviets in general, and Joseph Stalin in particular.

Edited April 15, 2015 by skyeagle409

[skyeagle409]

It's all in a paragraph in the letter I filed in my own cabinet. It is not secret by any means, can you not tell me what I wrote?

Let me help you as to who wrote the letter and to whom that letter was addressed.

It was Commander McLaughlin, a rocket expert at White Sands Proving Ground, who addressed the letter to:

Dr. J. A. Van Allen

Applied Physics Laboratory

Johns Hopkins University

In that letter, Commander McLaughlin confirmed that scientist were tracking flying saucers. You can read all about it here.

http://ufocon.blogspot.com/2014/08/letter-to-physicist-j-van-allen-from.html

And here.

http://www.nicap.org/true-mc.htm

[skyeagle409]

Sure it does. McAndrew didn't know what happened in 1947, his investigation drew largely from what Ufologists and skeptics were debating in the early '90's.

My hypothesis was not proposed at that time. McAndrew went with what he thought was the best answer at that time. My hypothesis says the whole thing was concocted days earlier to embarrass the National Press to the point that they would stop reporting on the phenomena.

That would have been in 1947, which does not address as to why the Air Force threw out its 47-year weather balloon in 1994 and replaced it with a Mogul balloon train, and then, added yet another cover report in 1997, 50 years later.

My hypothesis forces people to look at events beyond Roswell and research the "shady" beginings of the Military's UFO investigation.

After debunking its flying saucer recovery of 1947 as a weather balloon in order to embarrass the press, what is the public to think when they see headlines such as these?

http://roswellproof.homestead.com/ShootDown_INS_72952.html

http://greyfalcon.us/July%2028.htm

http://ufologie.patrickgross.org/htm/wash195201b.htm

Apparently, the Press wasn't embarrass enough because those headlines of 1952 are just as sensational as the 1947 flying saucer headlines.

McAndrew was NOT tasked to do that with his investigation Sky!

I understand most people think Roswell is a stand alone set of events that happened in a vaccum isolated from everything else and must be completely independent of all other events at the time, but that mindset is just wrong!

I have been able to show at least circumstantially that Roswell events were the result of the National Press reporting "frenzy" of the UFO phenomena after Arnold's sighting while the Military was desperate to conduct a serious investigation in Secret at that time.

We can take a look at just how serious the Air Force was. The case involved an RB-47 and a UFO that chased the jet bomber over multiple states. The Air Force said that the UFO was an American Airlines, DC-6, which is a propeller-driven aircraft that is not capable of chasing a jet bomber.

Regarding Captain James McAndrews and Lt. Col. Raymond Madson, there seem to have been bad blood between the two Air Force officers over the Roswell incident.

Madson then becomes more emphatic: "I didn't trust McAndrew. In fact, I don't even like him. I don't like the way that he operates." Madson goes on to say that he even gave McAndrew some of the famous photos of the crash test dummies that are used throughout the Air Force debunking report.

Madson states that McAndrew never returned any of the original materials that he had offered to McAndrew for reproduction. Madson said that after the Air Force's Roswell report was issued and he read it -alarmed- he called McAndrew repeatedly, but McAndrew never returned Madson's calls. So incensed was Madson that he debated whether to call McAndrew's Air Force superior.

But Madson goes far beyond saying that the Air Force used his "crash dummy program" as a feeble explanation and "cover story" to debunk the stories of Roswell alien beings

http://www.ufocasebook.com/mag/041309.html.

[skyeagle409]

Sky,

You told Tim he was wrong. I readily admit that. But that was all you did.

Tim and I, had some very heated exchanges via email that also included his webmaster. And, the poster, access-denied, didn't help things either.

[Lilly]

Ah yes, Roswell...getting us nowhere fast for over 60 years!

[stereologist]

It is all there in the records or all to see.

I read the thread and I see that just as truthers cannot stomach the truth one UFO poster cannot deal with the truth. It is all there in the records for all to see that one poster cannot stomach the truth and instead prefers a fantasy. Fantasies do not stop with one UFO case or two UFO cases, but spread to everything claimed.

[stereologist]

It is as simple as doing time/distance measurements over known landmarks. Pilots sometimes estimate their ground speed using such means.

A typical poor statement in which the statement does not match the conditions. Either Skyeagl409 understood the issue and purposely posted a misleading statement or more likely the opposite is true and the situation was not understood, which did not stop Skyeagle409 from posting a non-applicable statement.

The fact that it is possible for a pilot in a craft to estimate ground speed using known landmarks has no bearing on whether a ground based person can with any certainty determine the speed of a craft. A junior high understanding of trig reveals to all the cause of the uncertainty in determining the quantity in question.

First Degen identifies the issue of uncertainty.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=279940&st=150#entry5506841

Due to a head in the sand attitude, i.e. a closed mind, Psyche101 has to explain it.

With Lost Shaman as inspiration and the stirling debates he has furthered concerning the abilities of the human eye, it seems to me that normal vision would not be able to see an object that subtends an angle of less than 0.2 second of arc. Arnold said that the objects were 45 to 50 feet long right? So they would have had to be much closer than he had estimated (20-25 miles) or he would not have been able to make them out at all. And as they had to be much closer than Kenneth Arnold estimated, his timed speed would be incorrect, and the speed would not be 1,700 mph, but more like 400 miles per hour, which as you know is well within the range of the speed of a jet.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=279940&st=165#entry5506932

Just as a truther is unwilling to comprehend, UFO believers are also unwilling to release fantasies from their clutches.

[stereologist]

The claim of 1700 mph appears to be related to a source posted by Skyeagl409 in this post.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=279940&st=150#entry5506838

That did not ring right to me. So I did a quick check and found out that this is NOT the correct number.

http://www.davidreneke.com/the-first-ufo-kenneth-arnold-sighting/#

he arrived at an estimated speed of 1,200 miles per hour.

The following link also states 1200 mph

http://unmyst3.blogspot.com/2012/04/kenneth-arnolds-ufo-sighting.html

http://www.paranormal-encyclopedia.com/u/ufo/sightings/1947/kenneth-arnold.html

Arnold calculated their speed at around 1200MPH.

And here as well

at a minimum of 1,200 miles an hour

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Arnold_UFO_sighting

The 1700 mph number is a mistake. I would think anyone pushing UFO nonsense would be aware of that. I would like to think that this is an honest mistake, but I doubt it.

[S2F]

Ah yes, Roswell...getting us nowhere fast for over 60 years!

It's kind of hard to make headway when we keep going over the same details over and over again. It's kind of like NASCAR except nobody wins. The important evidence that points to aliens is all but non-existent so proponents have to push the cover up angle just to give the tale some legs.

[stereologist]

In Alice in Wonderland they have a race in a circle which has no winners and everyone a winner. In the book it is called a caucus race.