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XenoFish

Pointlessness of Religion

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Starhunter

Me too, my sister's murder was not an alternative that consoles me, nor was there something valuable there, that I couldn't of learned otherwise. I appreciate that it is a coping style for some, but for me it's of no benefit, interestingly, I meet life on its terms and there are times life sucks and that is that.

It's your loyalty shown in grief that demonstrates true love. And on top of that you remain independent and responsible for your own impact on life and others. You're an example of godliness and no doubt God will reward you greatly.

Edited by Starhunter
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Mr Walker

Where's your proof to make that statement something I will believe in? Until then, I find that a complete untrue statement.

Einstein's laws of thermodynamics, and the nature of energy and entropy.

Potential energy, when applied as kinetic energy, has an inevitable affect on matter . ,Neither the universe nor man can "expend", or apply, energy, without effecting a change in state, or altering the current equilibrium

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Mr Walker

I've mostly been watching this thread but I've got to comment on this. I think a person can view something as pointless without having to choose between depression or hedonism. For example, I don't think that our lives have any meaning, and that they are inherently pointless. We're just specks on a blue dot flying through space, doomed to die after short existences. However, that doesn't mean I'm depressed or a hedonist. In fact, I find it incredibly liberating, because I know I am the master of my own fate, and I am living my life for me, not anyone else. Success and happiness are what I deem it, and I'm not playing by someone or something else's rules.

The beauty and power of self aware beings, is that they CREATE the purpose for their own existence, and that of all things they interact with. They form, then act on, altering the potential of the the universe . A human being with no purpose is no more than a rock on the ground. A human being can create or give a purpose to the existence of that rock, as building material, or a tool, or even a weapon.

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Likely Guy

The beauty and power of self aware beings, is that they CREATE the purpose for their own existence, and that of all things they interact with. They form, then act on, altering the potential of the the universe . A human being with no purpose is no more than a rock on the ground. A human being can create or give a purpose to the existence of that rock, as building material, or a tool, or even a weapon.

Which requires no obedience to a god. Yes, we are wonderous.

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Starhunter

Which requires no obedience to a god. Yes, we are wonderous.

Obedience requires knowledge of a law doesn't it?

What law do you have in mind that does not require obedience?

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Mr Walker

Me too, my sister's murder was not an alternative that consoles me, nor was there something valuable there, that I couldn't of learned otherwise. I appreciate that it is a coping style for some, but for me it's of no benefit, interestingly, I meet life on its terms and there are times life sucks and that is that.

That is an entirely separate issue from that which I was making, albeit one we have discussed before.

On your point how you chose to respond to a tragedy will define the results of that tragedy for you. Tragedy does not HAVE to have negative effects, unless you chose to view it in a certain way. We know from cultural history that humans are capable of responding in widely diverse ways, to individual and social tragedy. (death, disaster, hardship etc.)

If you want to go through pain grief anger and other negative emotions then it is your prerogative to do so. I feel that is wasteful, harmful, and often counter productive. The energy consumed could be better used in doing something productive like setting up a fund or a memorial or just talking to people about a loved one's life . No one HAS to suffer the depth of pain or suffering which many take upon themselves and I don't think it is "coping" in a negative sense(or copping out from reality) to chose happiness after a death or tragedy.

I have worked with a funeral director and have taken many funeral services, delivering many eulogies. Humans respond in very diverse ways to death and tragedy. This illustrates that we can choose our responses. It is not some universal, or even local, cultural response programmed into us.

Life does not dictate terms to us. We dictate terms to life, and we do so because we can.

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Mr Walker

Which requires no obedience to a god. Yes, we are wonderous.

Who said it did? Certainly not me. That is an entirely separate issue.

The nature of human thought and mind causes us to respond in certain ways. Regardless of the existence ( or not) of an independent god, humans construct gods to add authority to social/secular laws .People behave best (more reliably) when motivated by strong internal beliefs, rather than external laws to which they have no emotional commitment.

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Likely Guy

Obedience requires knowledge of a law doesn't it?

What law do you have in mind that does not require obedience?

What I said was, we can do wonderous things, "Which requires no obedience to a god." What you read into what I said, I don't know. You'll have to clarify/

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Likely Guy

Who said it did? Certainly not me. That is an entirely separate issue.

The nature of human thought and mind causes us to respond in certain ways. Regardless of the existence ( or not) of an independent god, humans construct gods to add authority to social/secular laws .People behave best (more reliably) when motivated by strong internal beliefs, rather than external laws to which they have no emotional commitment.

Internal beliefs/external laws? Bah, the Golden Rule, that's all we need. It's both internal (inherent in every culture) and external (in every codices of law). It's pretty simple really.

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Starhunter

Who said there is a golden rule?

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Likely Guy

Who said there is a golden rule?

Just about every known religion has a passage that relates to it. Would you like to look into that or would you rather I show you?

If the latter, it's no matter. I have time.

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Likely Guy

Pardon my impatience.

Christianity All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 7:1

Confucianism Do not do to others what you would not like yourself. Then there will be no resentment against you, either in the family or in the state.

Analects 12:2

Buddhism Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.

Udana-Varga 5,1

Hinduism This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you.

Mahabharata 5,1517

Islam No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.

Sunnah

Judaism What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.

Talmud, Shabbat 3id

Taoism Regard your neighbor’s gain as your gain, and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss.

Tai Shang Kan Yin P’ien

Zoroastrianism That nature alone is good which refrains from doing another whatsoever is not good for itself.

Dadisten-I-dinik, 94,5

Edited by Likely Guy
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Likely Guy

Quite simply it's the universal concept of ethic reciprocity, That's the Golden Rule, so to answer your question, everyone says there is a Golden Rule. You don't even have to believe in God and you can believe in it.

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Mr Walker

Internal beliefs/external laws? Bah, the Golden Rule, that's all we need. It's both internal (inherent in every culture) and external (in every codices of law). It's pretty simple really.

If, by "the golden rule" you mean 'do unto others" etc. then it is nether simple nor universal; nor indeed, anything but a construct of human thought. And even it will only be obeyed if it is believed in ones heart not just seen as a rule imposed by others

First, how I want to be treated might be very different to how someone else wants to be treated ( Eg. I want to be held accountable for my wrong doings an the harm i do to others)

Second, how do we balance the treatment of an individual with the survival needs for that individuals society?.

Third who teaches our children such a complex intellectual contruct as the golden rule and what nuances does each teacher add to the basic idea?

Lastly, how does a human being learn to love oneself and then transfer that ability to love, to other humans? Love is NOT a biological artefact in humans. Unless we teach it to to child, even if implicitly, that child will never learn the nature of, nor the ability to, love.

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Starhunter

Just about every known religion has a passage that relates to it. Would you like to look into that or would you rather I show you?

If the latter, it's no matter. I have time.

#231 suggests every man to himself - from conscientious to sociopath all in one bag?

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Starhunter

Quite simply it's the universal concept of ethic reciprocity, That's the Golden Rule, so to answer your question, everyone says there is a Golden Rule. You don't even have to believe in God and you can believe in it.

You have quoted religions which none of us had in question, where do people without religions get this golden rule?

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Mr Walker

Quite simply it's the universal concept of ethic reciprocity, That's the Golden Rule, so to answer your question, everyone says there is a Golden Rule. You don't even have to believe in God and you can believe in it.

There IS NO such universal ethic and the ethic itself it is flawed, because how one person expects to be treated cannot be applied to how another person wants to be. How I act out of love for another might be very different to how someone else acts, out of an identical love.

As to your list of religions How about American native religions (north and south How about Scandinavian/ norse religious beliefs? Those of the huns the mongols and other groups? Polynesian nd Melanesian Micronesian? And even in most religious belief the law only applies to those of your kind and not to outsiders.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Starhunter

If, by "the golden rule" you mean 'do unto others" etc. then it is nether simple nor universal; nor indeed, anything but a construct of human thought. And even it will only be obeyed if it is believed in ones heart not just seen as a rule imposed by others

First, how I want to be treated might be very different to how someone else wants to be treated ( Eg. I want to be held accountable for my wrong doings an the harm i do to others)

Second, how do we balance the treatment of an individual with the survival needs for that individuals society?.

Third who teaches our children such a complex intellectual contruct as the golden rule and what nuances does each teacher add to the basic idea?

Lastly, how does a human being learn to love oneself and then transfer that ability to love, to other humans? Love is NOT a biological artefact in humans. Unless we teach it to to child, even if implicitly, that child will never learn the nature of, nor the ability to, love.

If Love is not in biology what is it?

Edited by Starhunter

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Tiggs

You have quoted religions which none of us had in question, where do people without religions get this golden rule?

We atheists get ours from the Golden Rule Shop. It's where they sell the Golden Pencils and the Golden Compasses, and the...

* Reads hurriedly passed note *

Ah. My mistake. Basic human Empathy. That's where we get it from.

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Likely Guy

You have quoted religions which none of us had in question, where do people without religions get this golden rule?

Simple human ethics. Let me reitterate, 'Simple human ethics'. I didn't need religion to learn that and religion echoes it.

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XenoFish

The golden rule isn't complex. It's very simple really. If everyone followed it the world would be a better place.

Mr.Walker humans are like jelly beans. We come in a wide variety of colors and "flavors", but we are essential the same.

Edited by XenoFish
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Likely Guy

There IS NO such universal ethic and the ethic itself it is flawed, because how one person expects to be treated cannot be applied to how another person wants to be. How I act out of love for another might be very different to how someone else acts, out of an identical love.

As to your list of religions How about American native religions (north and south How about Scandinavian/ norse religious beliefs? Those of the huns the mongols and other groups? Polynesian nd Melanesian Micronesian? And even in most religious belief the law only applies to those of your kind and not to outsiders.

If I like being smacked in the knee with a hammer, I should smack you in the knee with a hammer? Is that where your argument is going?

As to my non-inclusive list of world religions, were they able to write them down and save them for posterity's sake, I'm sure that the Golden Rule would be there.

Edited by Likely Guy
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Starhunter

I did not ask what the golden rule is or if it works but where did it come from?

Some of you are afraid I am implying religion as the only source...which I am not.

Someone said it's not in biology.

To answer that Q you need to know why the golden rule exists if it does at all.

Edited by Starhunter
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XenoFish

I was taught it by my grandfather a ww2 vet. He wasn't a religious man at all. He basically gave me my moral compass.

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Starhunter

The golden rule isn't complex. It's very simple really. If everyone followed it the world would be a better place.

Mr.Walker humans are like jelly beans. We come in a wide variety of colors and "flavors", but we are essential the same.

So a funny colored jelly bean should be eliminated because the majority are not so? It's ideals don't suit them.

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