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XenoFish

Pointlessness of Religion

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Starhunter

I was taught it by my grandfather a ww2 vet. He wasn't a religious man at all. He basically gave me my moral compass.

So it's a social influence, which can be molded by things like war which tell us that killing is off, but OK when it comes to defending or spreading idealisms?

Edited by Starhunter

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Likely Guy

I did not ask what the golden rule is or if it works but where did it come from?

Some of you are afraid I am implying religion as the only source...which I am not.

Someone said it's not in biology.

To answer that Q you need to know why the golden rule exists if it does at all.

From every culture that retained a written record. That's why it's universal.

Ancient China, ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, ancient Rome, India... What I'm saying is that the concept of ethic recipricity (the Golden Rule) is Universal and doesn't recogonize one God.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Golden_Rule

It's really that simple. In my posts I've not once implied that religion is 'pointless' what I'm stressing is that not everyone needs to be religious in order to be a good person. The Golden Rule in my opinion proves that.

Edited by Likely Guy
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Likely Guy

So it's a social influence, which can be molded by things like war which tell us that killing is off, but OK when it comes to defending or spreading idealisms?

Holy crap. You can read chapters in what someone lends in a sentence. Stop putting words in others mouths, that's for them to do.

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XenoFish

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc3.htm

More on the golden rule.

If Christain fundamentalist were doing the same thing as Islamic fundamentalist I'd have a problem with them. One should not forcefully impose their faith on others. Nor should they act violently towards other in the name of their religion.

Edited by XenoFish

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Starhunter

From every culture that retained a written record. That's why it's universal.

Ancient China, ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, ancient Rome, India... What I'm saying is that the concept of ethic recipricity (the Golden Rule) is Universal and doesn't recogonize one God.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Golden_Rule

It's really that simple. In my posts I've not once implied that religion is 'pointless' what I'm stressing is that not everyone needs to be religious in order to be a good person. The Golden Rule in my opinion proves that.

From what you have posted so far, you seem to imply that religions of all kinds are responsible for the golden rule concept.

That does not seem to include communists and atheists.

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Starhunter

http://www.religious...g/reciproc3.htm

More on the golden rule.

If Christain fundamentalist were doing the same thing as Islamic fundamentalist I'd have a problem with them. One should not forcefully impose their faith on others. Nor should they act violently towards other in the name of their religion.

So religions or any ideal should keep the golden rule. But what if they are just doing that - keeping their own golden rule?

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Starhunter

From every culture that retained a written record. That's why it's universal.

Ancient China, ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, ancient Rome, India... What I'm saying is that the concept of ethic recipricity (the Golden Rule) is Universal and doesn't recogonize one God.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Golden_Rule

It's really that simple. In my posts I've not once implied that religion is 'pointless' what I'm stressing is that not everyone needs to be religious in order to be a good person. The Golden Rule in my opinion proves that.

So the golden rule can exist outside of religion, but within a culture ancient or modern as well.

Which culture has been without a religion or political ideal - which is also a religion - because they think it is morally right.

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Starhunter

Since the golden rule is what everyone thinks is best for themselves and others, it is the golden rule of idealisms, which are only one step away from religion.

And what is an ideal or a religion if not some majority having its way?

So the golden rule shaped by whatever is really the ideals passed on by the majority.

So then we may have to accept that the majority are right, just like the people did under Hitler.

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Likely Guy

...That does not seem to include communists and atheists.

God help me, you've missed the entire point of what I've said. Do you read links?

It's Universal! There are no theistic/secular bounds. Ethic reciprocity, look that up, it's the Golden Rule. It also extends to extitentualism, humanism and philosophy as well as to Scientology and Wiccanism...

Edited by Likely Guy
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Mr Walker

If Love is not in biology what is it?

Human love is an intellectual construct, an idea and an ideal, a concept we form from our self aware consciousness hence it is a learned/taught reality. It is represented by symbols, words, pictures music etc., it is not a chemical or biological reaction innate in unborn humans although humans also have this chemical form of attraction/bonding, along with other animals. Love is expressed in poetry art flowers etc It as been proven that, unless a child is taught the nature of love and how to love, they will not learn how to love.

Like language, we all have the potential for it, but have to learn its form and function, in order to be able to feel it and express it. Most kids only need their parents to demonstrate an expression of love, in order to learn the nature of love

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Davros of Skaro

God help me, you've missed the entire point of what I've said. Do you read links?

It's Universal! There are no theistic/secular bounds. Ethic reciprocity, look that up, it's the Golden Rule. It also extends to extitentualism, humanism and philosophy as well as to Scientology and Wiccanism...

What do you expect from someone that thinks Satan is real?

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Likely Guy

Since the golden rule is what everyone thinks is best for themselves and others, it is the golden rule of idealisms, which are only one step away from religion.

And what is an ideal or a religion if not some majority having its way?

So the golden rule shaped by whatever is really the ideals passed on by the majority.

So then we may have to accept that the majority are right, just like the people did under Hitler.

Let me say again, "You can read chapters in what someone lends in a sentence. Stop putting words in others mouths, that's for them to do."

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Likely Guy

What do you expect from someone that thinks Satan is real?

Just a little common sense regarding humanistic moral/ethical reciprocity perhaps?

But, then again, perhaps I expect too much?

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Starhunter

Human love is an intellectual construct, an idea and an ideal, a concept we form from our self aware consciousness hence it is a learned/taught reality. It is represented by symbols, words, pictures music etc., it is not a chemical or biological reaction innate in unborn humans although humans also have this chemical form of attraction/bonding, along with other animals. Love is expressed in poetry art flowers etc It as been proven that, unless a child is taught the nature of love and how to love, they will not learn how to love.

Like language, we all have the potential for it, but have to learn its form and function, in order to be able to feel it and express it. Most kids only need their parents to demonstrate an expression of love, in order to learn the nature of love

I get that. You are talking about love as a free choice over and above genetics.

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Likely Guy

Human love is an intellectual construct, an idea and an ideal, a concept we form from our self aware consciousness hence it is a learned/taught reality. It is represented by symbols, words, pictures music etc., it is not a chemical or biological reaction innate in unborn humans although humans also have this chemical form of attraction/bonding, along with other animals. Love is expressed in poetry art flowers etc It as been proven that, unless a child is taught the nature of love and how to love, they will not learn how to love.

Like language, we all have the potential for it, but have to learn its form and function, in order to be able to feel it and express it. Most kids only need their parents to demonstrate an expression of love, in order to learn the nature of love

Agreed. Which doesn't need an obedience to a god having taught us thus.

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Mr Walker

Simple human ethics. Let me reitterate, 'Simple human ethics'. I didn't need religion to learn that and religion echoes it.

There IS/ARE no, "basic/simple human ethics" Ethics are philosophical concepts, and constructed ideas, based on cultural expectations and norms. No human is born with a set of universal ethics, only the potential to learn ethics from others or from introspection.We learn religion and ethics from our family and society, although we are born with the facility/capacity for language, including conceptual and abstract complex language, which allows us to learn/be taught ethics.

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Starhunter

What do you expect from someone that thinks Satan is real?

When left behind - start personal attacks if possible - that's your and unlkelyguy's golden rule is it?

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Starhunter

Agreed. Which doesn't need an obedience to a god having taught us thus.

What obedience are you afraid of?

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Mr Walker

I get that. You are talking about love as a free choice over and above genetics.

Yes love is not biological or genetic. That biological attraction is a form of desire or chemical attraction evolved to keep couples together during child rearing. Love is entirely a construct of the mind. Of course we cannot always entirely chose who we fall in love with, because we are "conditioned" by our social environment to find certain types of people loveable. You can overcome that conditioning, but it is not always a good idea to do so.

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Likely Guy

There IS/ARE no, "basic/simple human ethics" Ethics are philosophical concepts, and constructed ideas, based on cultural expectations and norms. No human is born with a set of universal ethics, only the potential to learn ethics from others or from introspection.We learn religion and ethics from our family and society, although we are born with the facility/capacity for language, including conceptual and abstract complex language, which allows us to learn/be taught ethics.

I agree, for the third time, but state again that religion is not the only the only way that those ethics are taught.

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Mr Walker

Agreed. Which doesn't need an obedience to a god having taught us thus.

Again, who said it did ? Not me. That is a separate form of learning/teaching

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Likely Guy

What obedience are you afraid of?

None. I abide by the social norms and civil laws that I'm subject to as a law abiding citizen. If I overstep their bounds, I'm subject to the penalties. Why should I fear?

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Likely Guy

Again, who said it did ? Not me. That is a separate form of learning/teaching

Then we're in agreement then. The Golden Rule is all we the bulk of the rest of us, need.

Edited by Likely Guy
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Likely Guy

When left behind - start personal attacks if possible - that's your and unlkelyguy's golden rule is it?

For the third time: "You can read chapters in what someone lends in a sentence. Stop putting words in others mouths, that's for them to do."

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Mr Walker

I agree, for the third time, but state again that religion is not the only the only way that those ethics are taught.

Ah no, BUT, and it is a big but. The most effective way to get people to behave in a certain way, for the benefit of a society rather than self, is to create in them a set of internalised beliefs which drives them to behave in a consistent way no matter who is watching or whether they think they will get caught. Hence the usefulness of religion. Believe anything strongly enough, with your heart and your mind, and you will behave consistently with that belief. Teach a child to honour its parents as a belief and they will always honour their parents. Teach them it is wrong to steal, as a real internalised belief, and they will never steal. Teach someone to believe that it is morally wrong to eat meat, and they will never eat meat.

*SNIP*

Edited by Paranoid Android
Rule 2b
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