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XenoFish

Pointlessness of Religion

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Paranoid Android

I have mourned people very close to me who died tragically from suicide murder illness and malpractice.

.I have an appropriate sadness( refrain a little more from cracking jokes etc) and I chose not to feel severe loss or pain, just a gentle reminder of the person. I chose to celebrate and remember the life of a mourned one and then move on. I see it as selfish/self centred for me to "take on" grief as if I am important when a person is gone.

I will miss and mourn my wife but have already chosen how to deal with it and know how I will behave. More immediately I am spending time with my mother, and we are having her to stay with us for a week because she is getting very frail and may not live much longer After my wife I love my mother more than any one else in the world. Her death will lave a big hole in my life in many real ways but am not going to be depressed or grief stricken or even very sad when she dies There is no productive point in such responses I will read her eulogy which we have prepared together, to hundreds of people at a celebratory funeral, hold a wake to celebrate her life, and then keep her memory alive in my heart and mind. ...

if you do all you can with and for, the ones you love, when they are alive, then there is no guilt to compound grief when they die..

Again it is not that this is the only way to grieve, but it is one possible way. It is only culture and learning which makes us think there is one way grieve/mourn. and that is to be sad.

I am not saying to eliminate emotions but minimise the destructive ones and emphasise the healthy ones. I laugh and cry all the time at things in life. I find, (especially after having been very close to death a number of times) that life is a beautiful, wondrous, and joyful experience. .This is healthy. You are not compelled to feel pain, loneliness, suffering or guilt, when a loved one dies. This is a choice, not a requirement or a biological imperative.

I'm glad you have already chosen the method in which you have chosen to cope with the loss of those whom you love. Unfortunately, I am a dynamic creature, I cannot know how I will respond to loss, and therefore cannot choose the "appropriate response" to my situations in the future. It reminds me a little of the sci-fi series "Firefly", in which the prim-and-proper doctor who was newly on the run and used to the proper way of dealing with things, so when it came to swearing he said that he did swear "when it was appropriate". Kaylee was quick to point out that the point of swearing was that "the point of swearing was that it ain't appropriate".

I dealt with my mother's death relatively recently. I knew it was coming, I knew kind of what to expect, but I really had no idea how it would affect me, or the fact that 15 months later I would be watching an episode of Star Trek in which one of the main characters was (temporarily) in a coma and the memories of my mother in a coma swept over me and even all these months later I found myself bawling my eyes out, even though I knew this character would get better (I've seen the episode several times) just thinking about what happened to mum.

But I'm glad you have apportioned an "appropriate" amount of grief towards the situation and that when your apportioned grief is done you will never think back on what you have lost....

Yes, that was sarcastic. I have lost all faith in you as someone who has any real world knowledge to impart to this given topic. Grief is far more dynamic than what you say, and the fact that you think otherwise shows a lack of disconnect with the real world.

Nothing more really to say,

~ PA

Edited by Paranoid Android
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Stubbly_Dooright

Only one response here but it is critical. NO human emotion is unavoidable or inevitable Every human has the potential ability to control, direct, and even eliminate emotions from their response to a situation. Not saying this is always good or necessary but it is possible. So you do not HAVE to feel sad ( Or angry or resentful )about anything. You can adjust your mind to feel happy instead of sad but you respond with what you have learned is expected of you and what is appropriate.

You are human and that means you CAN chose not to feel sad if you don't want to.

(Unless "you" have a clinical form of depression which requires medication)

It is frustrating that so many people do not realise this, and so suffer so much during their lives, when they do not have to.

I was taught as a child to discipline my emotions and demonstrate stoicism and a calm rational response to stresses, dangers, aggravations etc; and then deliberately in early adolescence went on to eliminate fear, jealously, anger, hate, greed envy etc. from my emotions. Anyone can do this and it is not even hard. It just requires will and discipline.

it is not impossible to chose not to feel sad. It is actually very easy and simple to learn how to not feel sadness (or any other emotion.)

Again, I have to tell you. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! WRONG!!!!! Talking yourself into feeling anything you instinctually feel is wrong and it will screw you up emotionally. Anyone who goes into marriage thinking they can choose to love someone always ends up in divorce from my observation. I have two examples, I have known two case of marriages, ( I hesitate to call them couples, because they shouldn't be known as a couple because they were not in love with each other for obvious reasons) Of the two marriages, both the men were homosexual. They went into the marriage to deny it, well of course because of what others thought of them. Didn't work out of course, because they were lying to themselves and the stress overwhelmed them. I have seen other heterosexual marriages fail, because they went into it by pressure, and they couldn't take the lying to themselves.
Most Australian schools teach resilience and anti bullying to very young children This teaches them both how not to be afraid, and not to be angry, but also not to respond to aggression and teasing etc

In other words it gives resilience and skills and basically shows children how to have control over their emotional responses.and not be forced into reactive response to others.

Well, this last part is showing what I and others have been saying. Control over the emotional responses, and not how to feel the emotions. IN which that is what is the teaching, how to work through your instinctual emotions. And therapy is best when someone needs to understand how and why they feel it due to trauma. But you cannot choose to feel something you don't honestly feel! Wait a minute, * reads down a post.* Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, there we go. PA, said it best for me. Exactly...................... if you don't mind, let me post it again. (If that is ok PA. :blush: )
Mr Walker. You can't stop feeling emotions. You can regulate how you react to those emotions, however. And the way you react to those emotions will go a long way to how those emotions manifest in the future. Whether that emotion dissipates and let's you move on, or whether it intensifies and eats you up, this is dependant on your reaction to an emotion. But telling someone who has just lost a loved one and is mourning their passing to "cheer up, kipper, you don't have to be sad now" is bull. Grief is natural, how you respond to grief is a different question, but your last reply doesn't seem to acknowledge the distinction.
BINGO!!!
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Stubbly_Dooright

I dealt with my mother's death relatively recently. I knew it was coming, I knew kind of what to expect, but I really had no idea how it would affect me, or the fact that 15 months later I would be watching an episode of Star Trek in which one of the main characters was (temporarily) in a coma and the memories of my mother in a coma swept over me and even all these months later I found myself bawling my eyes out, even though I knew this character would get better (I've seen the episode several times) just thinking about what happened to mum.

~ PA

Well first off, PA. (((((HUGS))))))) I really wish I could give you a warm comforting hug right now. I hear you friend. :)

When my brother was dying of Pancreatic Cancer, (five years this April 22) I remember a StarGate Atlantis episode where it was too painful for me. The thing is, during that time, I kept YouTubing 'Scrubs' outtakes. Does that make sense? I think we all have a way to deal with it, and if there is a way that helps you, I say, and this is from experience, do it. I was also reading at the time, Carol Burnett's biography, in which her comedy was making me laugh, and how she dealt with her own daughter's death with such a way, it opened up something in me as well. I hope what you did was a comfort. :yes: I am thinking of you friend. :)

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XenoFish

I love how a thread will evolve over time. It's a fascinating thing.

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Just Dave

I feel there is no point in religion. There is no God. If there is a God it doesn't care about us as our fate is totally within our own hands. I'm seriously considering becoming an atheist.

+1 Revelations of modern thinking chapter 1 paragraph 1!

People believe in religion for their own sake, i don't mind it, but i don't want to talk about it in public, while believers think that not believing is like a crime.

Middle ages are long gone, people are becoming more aware, smarter, less naive.

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XenoFish
while believers think that not believing is like a crime.

This is one of my issues with some believers. Join us or suffering eternal damnation.

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Sherapy

You totally misunderstand what i am saying We LEARN emotional responses They have a place in individual and social life BUT many people are harmed even killed by inappropriate and destructive emotional impulses. It is healthier to know and understand your emotional drivers and then chose the most constructive responses to an thingy in life And any one can do this..

Emotions in humans are intellectual constructs, not biological responses, We can tell this by observing the cultural differences in emotional responses with something like death. we grieve as we have learned to grieve and feel as we are taught to feel Without teaching via implicit and explicit cultural examples, humans do not learn to feel anger or hate or fear at all A human can't even feel love until they learn its nature, shape and form, by being exposed to it..We are not born knowing those concepts. or feeling them. because we are not born with language or thought. (which is a product of language)

There are many better ways to motivate oneself productively than anger or hate. or fear or envy. or jealousy.

How can anger be healthy in any way? it raises blood pressure, affects healthy body function, increases male testosterone, etc All negative biological responses. Anger drives out rational thought and Is one of the our most primitive tools in our mental tool box. it is a sledge hammer when we could use a small precision hammer for the task

The sentence I boded is incredible. Anger causes violence and murder every day it causes domestic violence social violence and road rage. It is also destructive psychologically because words said in anger do great harm to people and relationships Anger is an atavistic and primitive response and has no place in a modern complex world where it can, and does, do so much harm,which we now know is not necessary.

MW you begin your counter with emotions are not "biological responses" then in your second paragraph you use anger as an example of a "negative biological response." Proving what everyone has been saying and you have been refusing to listen that emotions are also biological in origin, they also have cognitive and behavior components to them. Now about anger, anger and irratibility are normal responses to percieved injustices or disastrous traumatic events. People can experience temporary anger at the loss of a loved one, it is natural and handling it functionally would be putting a support system into place and crying if need be or talking about how you feel about the issue, often in the talking it out especially with a therapist or trusted friend you see in a more objective way.

What you are talking about is excessive anger and hostility or an angry temperament as in the person who is always p***ed off and has a negative attitude that is cynical, and mistrusting of all others all the time, this has been studied and it has even shown to lead to heart attacks. The reason for this is an angry person tends to provoke more conflicts and arguments with others which leads to more physiological stress on the heart. Also because a person who is angry most of the time push others away which leads to less social support. What you want to do is eliminate the stressors, one of the best way is to talk about how you feel about things, this gives you other ways to see things. If you don't have a support system, go for a run, It releases the stress and the anger in a healthy way or cry if you need to, it gets the negative feelings out as opposed to avoiding or hiding them ( as you are suggesting/do). You would not want to repress emotions or deny them or avoid them because in doing so the bodily reactions of not releasing (stress) is what becomes problematic. I am not suggesting you should ever act aggressively like you are inferring; I am talking about an appropriate exp<b></b>ression of your emotions. Things like writing in a journal, or go for a walk. learn to recognize and acknowledge you are angry is the first step, you can even tell someone look I am really angry about this give me some time to calm down then we will talk, this avoids the need to verbally lash out. Find ways to cultivate more empathy, and compassion in your life the biggest one of all is forgiveness, start with yourself. You can also use rational self talk, meditation, and exercise to lessen the intensity and frequency of angry outbursts, one can't eliminate anger that is denying it, but you can use it in a healthy manner. Change the way you think about anger ( cognitive aspect of anger) often those that think they need retribution or pay back struggle the most. You can also get the book "Anger the Misunderstood Emotion." By Carol Tarvis.

http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/recognize-anger.aspx

Here is a link for you, that supports anger is part of our biology, so you can revise your understanding.

"Many of the longer-term outcomes of anger are negative. Yet, anger is part of our biological history. It is part of the fight-or-flight reaction. It had survival value in the past and it has some positives in the present. Many of these, however, are short-term benefits as few of us like to spend time with angry people.

Anger can be an appropriate response to injustice. No doubt, anger played a useful part in social movements for equality for blacks, the elderly and women, among others. Anger may also lead to better outcomes in business negotiations as well as an increased motivation to right the wrongs we see in the world.

The positives include its alerting function. Anger tells others it is important to listen to us – that we feel agitated and it is wise to be alert to our words and actions. It may also lead to compliance by others. Strongly asserting that we were first in line at a store counter may lead to better service. Also, in the short term, children and others may be more likely to comply with our requests when we are angry. “Don’t go in the street without holding mommy’s hand!” when said angrily to a small child, can be lifesaving.

Anger sometimes just feels good and righteous. We may feel angry when watching a movie or a play where a character suffers inappropriately. Then, when good triumphs over evil, anger is replaced with a feeling of satisfaction. Playwrights have known about this for eons. In a similar vein, anger provides a certain zest for life. Can you imagine a world with no anger? The healthier, milder levels of irritation and annoyance add spice to daily existence and we all seem to enjoy that."

Edited by Sherapy
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Grandpa Greenman

What she said ^. My guess MW you have never dealt with people who have brain injuries or damage of some sort. One time I had an MS exacerbation which affected my emotions. It was like someone would spin a wheel and where the wheel stopped that is the emotion I would have. It is called pseudobulbar affect. Sometime you laugh uncontrollably, start crying or become angry. It could be really embarrassing, because the emotion is unrelated to the situation you're in. Believe me you feel the emotion you just don't know why. One time I was in a typing class and suddenly burst into tears. I got up and excused myself and went out to hall where I had to explain to the instructor what was happening. Nothing like a wonky brain to teach how brains work. I was glad when the exacerbation went away after a couple of months and it stopped happening. Our emotions really come from brain chemistry. Which is why psychoactive drugs work.

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Sherapy

What she said ^. My guess MW you have never dealt with people who have brain injuries or damage of some sort. One time I had an MS exacerbation which affected my emotions. It was like someone would spin a wheel and where the wheel stopped that is the emotion I would have. It is called pseudobulbar affect. Sometime you laugh uncontrollably, start crying or become angry. It could be really embarrassing, because the emotion is unrelated to the situation you're in. Believe me you feel the emotion you just don't know why. One time I was in a typing class and suddenly burst into tears. I got up and excused myself and went out to hall where I had to explain to the instructor what was happening. Nothing like a wonky brain to teach how brains work. I was glad when the exacerbation went away after a couple of months and it stopped happening. Our emotions really come from brain chemistry. Which is why psychoactive drugs work.

Excellent post and points. Phineas Gage came to mind immediately. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

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XenoFish

Maybe he needs to have a good anxiety attack with a dose of paranoia. Those are fun <_< .

I'm good about 90% of the time, but when it get's going I'm a nervous wreck. Jumpy and everything is suspicious. I hate it.

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Starhunter

This is one of my issues with some believers. Join us or suffering eternal damnation.

The Authentic Bible does not teach the doctrine of hell as taught by the churches, in case you did not know.

But yes, the irony is that while holding onto lies the religious segregate themselves from others who are not controlled by them.

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Mr Walker

So what kind of robot are you mr.walker?

That is my point. Because I am human can choose my emotional responses Do you REALLY accept that it is acceptable for a man to kill woman because he couldn't stop himself getting angry when she belittled him, for example? . Or for a wife to kill her husband when she finds him cheating on her, just because she cannot control how she feels? Robots have no conscious input into, or control over their emotions but humans do and so we are rightly held accountable for those feelings, .BECAUSE they are not uncontrollable. There are better, healthier, and more logical/productive ways of responding to events in life than emotionally. I am of a generation who was taught complete self discipline the ability to discipline mind and body through an exercise of conscious will That is exactly the opposite of being unable to chose or take control of emotional responses. Spock was not unfeeling. He had been taught to control unbridled emotions because of the danger they presented to his species.

What kind of human are you ? Can you control your emotions, and choose how you respond to all forms of situatons.?

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Mr Walker

MW you begin your counter with emotions are not "biological responses" then in your second paragraph you use anger as an example of a "negative biological response." Proving what everyone has been saying and you have been refusing to listen that emotions are also biological in origin, they also have cognitive and behavior components to them. Now about anger, anger and irratibility are normal responses to percieved injustices or disastrous traumatic events. People can experience temporary anger at the loss of a loved one, it is natural and handling it functionally would be putting a support system into place and crying if need be or talking about how you feel about the issue, often in the talking it out especially with a therapist or trusted friend you see in a more objective way.

What you are talking about is excessive anger and hostility or an angry temperament as in the person who is always p***ed off and has a negative attitude that is cynical, and mistrusting of all others all the time, this has been studied and it has even shown to lead to heart attacks. The reason for this is an angry person tends to provoke more conflicts and arguments with others which leads to more physiological stress on the heart. Also because a person who is angry most of the time push others away which leads to less social support. What you want to do is eliminate the stressors, one of the best way is to talk about how you feel about things, this gives you other ways to see things. If you don't have a support system, go for a run, It releases the stress and the anger in a healthy way or cry if you need to, it gets the negative feelings out as opposed to avoiding or hiding them ( as you are suggesting/do). You would not want to repress emotions or deny them or avoid them because in doing so the bodily reactions of not releasing (stress) is what becomes problematic. I am not suggesting you should ever act aggressively like you are inferring; I am talking about an appropriate expression of your emotions. Things like writing in a journal, or go for a walk. learn to recognize and acknowledge you are angry is the first step, you can even tell someone look I am really angry about this give me some time to calm down then we will talk, this avoids the need to verbally lash out. Find ways to cultivate more empathy, and compassion in your life the biggest one of all is forgiveness, start with yourself. You can also use rational self talk, meditation, and exercise to lessen the intensity and frequency of angry outbursts, one can't eliminate anger that is denying it, but you can use it in a healthy manner. Change the way you think about anger ( cognitive aspect of anger) often those that think they need retribution or pay back struggle the most. You can also get the book "Anger the Misunderstood Emotion." By Carol Tarvis.

http://www.apa.org/h...nize-anger.aspx

Here is a link for you, that supports anger is part of our biology, so you can revise your understanding.

"Many of the longer-term outcomes of anger are negative. Yet, anger is part of our biological history. It is part of the fight-or-flight reaction. It had survival value in the past and it has some positives in the present. Many of these, however, are short-term benefits as few of us like to spend time with angry people.

Anger can be an appropriate response to injustice. No doubt, anger played a useful part in social movements for equality for blacks, the elderly and women, among others. Anger may also lead to better outcomes in business negotiations as well as an increased motivation to right the wrongs we see in the world.

The positives include its alerting function. Anger tells others it is important to listen to us – that we feel agitated and it is wise to be alert to our words and actions. It may also lead to compliance by others. Strongly asserting that we were first in line at a store counter may lead to better service. Also, in the short term, children and others may be more likely to comply with our requests when we are angry. "Don't go in the street without holding mommy's hand!" when said angrily to a small child, can be lifesaving.

Anger sometimes just feels good and righteous. We may feel angry when watching a movie or a play where a character suffers inappropriately. Then, when good triumphs over evil, anger is replaced with a feeling of satisfaction. Playwrights have known about this for eons. In a similar vein, anger provides a certain zest for life. Can you imagine a world with no anger? The healthier, milder levels of irritation and annoyance add spice to daily existence and we all seem to enjoy that."

The biological responses of anger are LEARNED not innate. People don't just feel things or get angry until they learn to do so in response to fill a need At a basic animal level we have some of the reflexes of all animals but because of our minds we can either heighten those responses or eliminate them I agree with many of your points but disagree that anger and fear is ever the best way to react. With any situation Logic and intelligence work far more effectively. Fight/fight is a counter productive response in modern humans. We learned it via evolution millennia ago, but today our knowledge and minds and technology are far more critical to our survival. Thus we have to unlearn fight /flight reflexes or end up dead, or in prison.

Why DEAL with fear or anger when you can eliminate them n the first place?

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XenoFish

While having self control is good, it's not good to try and repress all emotions. You have to feel life. The good and the bad. Telling someone to suck it up and deal with can be good with something's. However I feel that such emotions such as grief and sadness should be worked through. I still don't see what this has to do with my OP?

I've learned a great deal of self control in my years as a once occult practioner.

Edited by XenoFish
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Mr Walker

I am not talking about "repressing ' emotions. We learn to feel emotions, as a response to interactions, from our family/society.

Some responses are productive. Others are not. In a civilised society, where we live very close to each other, and to strangers not family or clan, and have tools for destruction like guns or motor cars, why encourage destructive emotions or consequences?. How do we stop violence abuse etc until children learn more appropriate ways to feel good about themselves and to react to others?

Actually you do not HAVE to feel pain and loss and sorrow or anger fear or grief. . Why not live a life filled with joy, happiness, and peace?

Work out why you get angry or afraid and why you feel anger and fear, and then use will and discipline not to feel those things. Work out why you feel joy and then choose that feeling. Why do so many people fear death when it comes to us all? Use logic and knowledge to protect yourself. Understand why you fear death. and it is possible not to fear it at all. Understand why you feel loneliness. and you can learn not to feel it. Know why you get angry and you can choose not to get angry. This is about empowerment and choice.

Tell me; when a close loved one dies, should a human being feel grief or joy? Then answer is that they should feel the emotion they choose as appropriate for them. and which is most constructive for their own future and for the future of those around them. If grief brings a family closer, then it is appropriate. If it drives them apart then it is not. if it motivates them positively it is good. If it stops them functioning for a year, or even more, then it is not. I heard on the radio yesterday the story of a writer whose father's suicide wiped out a year of his life, (He cant remember it and spent it in a sort of fugue state ) and from which it took over a decade for him to function properly again.

Edited by Mr Walker

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XenoFish

Because ever emotion serves a purpose. It's a yin yang type of thing. Love-Hate, Joy-Sadness. Without one how could we know the other? Everyone of us deals with our emotionality different. I still don't see what this has to do with religion being pointless. It seems you've derailed the main topic. All because you've had a disagreement with someone.

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DieChecker

Work out why you get angry or afraid and why you feel anger and fear, and then use will and discipline not to feel those things. Work out why you feel joy and then choose that feeling.

Reminds me of the NetFlix series "The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt".

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3339966/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unbreakable_Kimmy_Schmidt

She decides to look at everything from the positive side in every situation.

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Frank Merton

Because ever emotion serves a purpose. It's a yin yang type of thing. Love-Hate, Joy-Sadness. Without one how could we know the other? Everyone of us deals with our emotionality different. I still don't see what this has to do with religion being pointless. It seems you've derailed the main topic. All because you've had a disagreement with someone.

I might suggest religion is like alcohol -- it does give us a sense of contentment and does good things for us, but at an unacceptable cost when overdone.
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Sherapy

The biological responses of anger are LEARNED not innate. People don't just feel things or get angry until they learn to do so in response to fill a need At a basic animal level we have some of the reflexes of all animals but because of our minds we can either heighten those responses or eliminate them I agree with many of your points but disagree that anger and fear is ever the best way to react. With any situation Logic and intelligence work far more effectively. Fight/fight is a counter productive response in modern humans. We learned it via evolution millennia ago, but today our knowledge and minds and technology are far more critical to our survival. Thus we have to unlearn fight /flight reflexes or end up dead, or in prison.

Why DEAL with fear or anger when you can eliminate them n the first place?

MW, you are addressing maladaptive anger, it is called aggression, I agree and it is intended to harm someone either verbally or bodily. There is no arguement from me that this is harmful. What I am talking about is anger, normal natural anger, the kind of emotional reaction that may say to a child in a firm tone never play with matches, or do not touch the stove. it's the tone that says mom and dad need you to pay attention and listen. It's the tone of offense that insists that second hand smoke and respecting the health of those that do not smoke to go smoke somewhere else. It is the motivation behind the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement. Anger is the parent or the person who advocates for their child or themselves by seeking a fair resolution of an issue. It is the tone that says I matter and I am worth fighting for. It is our way of letting others know that this is our line and please respect our boundaries. It's the emotion that insists we speak our mind it is the void that says treat me with dignity. This Anger leads to conflict resolution. It says I am not okay with this, let's define my limits and find a win win for us both. It never has to be harmful bodily or verbally. It's the statement that says I agree to disagree, it's the tone that says enough, no more, and I mean it. It is as viable today as it ever was and it is part of life. Life has positive and negative aspects, that is reality. I tend to be positive and optimistic as a temperament, but I still get angry on occassion and I have bad days, people I love die and I get sad and I grieve, I live a life full of love and happiness and still I have moments of disappointment and then I habe great joy. I am good with this, I have great friends and strong support systems. Are you honestly trying to say you do not ever anger or frustrate your wife in 40 years of marriage, that your wife has never had to tell you enough, and done so without harm or violence?

Edited by Sherapy
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DieChecker

I might suggest religion is like alcohol -- it does give us a sense of contentment and does good things for us, but at an unacceptable cost when overdone.

Yes, I agree.... If overdone. The definition of "overdone" I think is relative per individual sadly. :cry:

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Stubbly_Dooright

+1 Revelations of modern thinking chapter 1 paragraph 1!

People believe in religion for their own sake, i don't mind it, but i don't want to talk about it in public, while believers think that not believing is like a crime.

Middle ages are long gone, people are becoming more aware, smarter, less naive.

Well, I feel not all believers, but I hear you. Even though I'm a New Age believer, and maybe it's rare, (chances are it might not be), I do see it in certain others, and I cannot understand that. *shrugs*

MW you begin your counter with emotions are not "biological responses" then in your second paragraph you use anger as an example of a "negative biological response." Proving what everyone has been saying and you have been refusing to listen that emotions are also biological in origin, they also have cognitive and behavior components to them. Now about anger, anger and irratibility are normal responses to percieved injustices or disastrous traumatic events. People can experience temporary anger at the loss of a loved one, it is natural and handling it functionally would be putting a support system into place and crying if need be or talking about how you feel about the issue, often in the talking it out especially with a therapist or trusted friend you see in a more objective way.

What you are talking about is excessive anger and hostility or an angry temperament as in the person who is always p***ed off and has a negative attitude that is cynical, and mistrusting of all others all the time, this has been studied and it has even shown to lead to heart attacks. The reason for this is an angry person tends to provoke more conflicts and arguments with others which leads to more physiological stress on the heart. Also because a person who is angry most of the time push others away which leads to less social support. What you want to do is eliminate the stressors, one of the best way is to talk about how you feel about things, this gives you other ways to see things. If you don't have a support system, go for a run, It releases the stress and the anger in a healthy way or cry if you need to, it gets the negative feelings out as opposed to avoiding or hiding them ( as you are suggesting/do). You would not want to repress emotions or deny them or avoid them because in doing so the bodily reactions of not releasing (stress) is what becomes problematic. I am not suggesting you should ever act aggressively like you are inferring; I am talking about an appropriate expression of your emotions. Things like writing in a journal, or go for a walk. learn to recognize and acknowledge you are angry is the first step, you can even tell someone look I am really angry about this give me some time to calm down then we will talk, this avoids the need to verbally lash out. Find ways to cultivate more empathy, and compassion in your life the biggest one of all is forgiveness, start with yourself. You can also use rational self talk, meditation, and exercise to lessen the intensity and frequency of angry outbursts, one can't eliminate anger that is denying it, but you can use it in a healthy manner. Change the way you think about anger ( cognitive aspect of anger) often those that think they need retribution or pay back struggle the most. You can also get the book "Anger the Misunderstood Emotion." By Carol Tarvis.

http://www.apa.org/h...nize-anger.aspx

Here is a link for you, that supports anger is part of our biology, so you can revise your understanding.

"Many of the longer-term outcomes of anger are negative. Yet, anger is part of our biological history. It is part of the fight-or-flight reaction. It had survival value in the past and it has some positives in the present. Many of these, however, are short-term benefits as few of us like to spend time with angry people.

Anger can be an appropriate response to injustice. No doubt, anger played a useful part in social movements for equality for blacks, the elderly and women, among others. Anger may also lead to better outcomes in business negotiations as well as an increased motivation to right the wrongs we see in the world.

The positives include its alerting function. Anger tells others it is important to listen to us – that we feel agitated and it is wise to be alert to our words and actions. It may also lead to compliance by others. Strongly asserting that we were first in line at a store counter may lead to better service. Also, in the short term, children and others may be more likely to comply with our requests when we are angry. "Don't go in the street without holding mommy's hand!" when said angrily to a small child, can be lifesaving.

Anger sometimes just feels good and righteous. We may feel angry when watching a movie or a play where a character suffers inappropriately. Then, when good triumphs over evil, anger is replaced with a feeling of satisfaction. Playwrights have known about this for eons. In a similar vein, anger provides a certain zest for life. Can you imagine a world with no anger? The healthier, milder levels of irritation and annoyance add spice to daily existence and we all seem to enjoy that."

I found this the most wisely said and exactly on parr of my point. :yes: Well said, Sheri!! :tu: There is parts of this post that reminds me of individuals who come across with 'smiles' and showing they are 'choosing' to feel something, that what they are really doing is 'acting' and looking shifty or sneaky to me. I have always noticed these are the people who end up unleashing some nasty behaviors on others later on. Sheri's post proves to me how it's best to identify your emotions and then do what is must to deal with it healthily.

What she said ^. My guess MW you have never dealt with people who have brain injuries or damage of some sort. One time I had an MS exacerbation which affected my emotions. It was like someone would spin a wheel and where the wheel stopped that is the emotion I would have. It is called pseudobulbar affect. Sometime you laugh uncontrollably, start crying or become angry. It could be really embarrassing, because the emotion is unrelated to the situation you're in. Believe me you feel the emotion you just don't know why. One time I was in a typing class and suddenly burst into tears. I got up and excused myself and went out to hall where I had to explain to the instructor what was happening. Nothing like a wonky brain to teach how brains work. I was glad when the exacerbation went away after a couple of months and it stopped happening. Our emotions really come from brain chemistry. Which is why psychoactive drugs work.

I wonder if what you went through, ( sorry to use this, and my heart is hugging you. ) is similar to what I went through. In 1989, when I was involved in a car accident, ( I smashed into the windshield, the back of my head punched a hole in it, long story there about the lack of seatbelt) I got a concussion. Still to this day, do not remember most of the accident, but I was told I was still awake and alert and talking, well talking like I had brain damage. What I remember of it, very little, is foggy accounts in the hospital and I was crying. I remember crying even though a big part of me was like in the back of mind not really knowing what is going on. I just remember being told I was in a car accident and remember wiping the tears off my face. I remember also thinking to myself, 'well that would make sense, I was told I was in a car accident, and I would be crying' but it was like I was watching myself. I just think that emotions are a big thing and not to mess around with. Maybe that is why I am very strong in proving are emotions are instinctual and part of our biology. There are there for a reason, and sometimes you really cannot control them, just your behavior.
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Frank Merton

Yes, I agree.... If overdone. The definition of "overdone" I think is relative per individual sadly. :cry:

It is not hard to say when someone has had too much too drink -- they manifest being drunk. However, drinking can be bad even without intoxication, such as when one is going to drive.

I have a chronic liver condition known as chronic hepatitis B. It doesn't go away and as far as tests tell us is just sitting there doing me no harm. However, were I to have a few drinks, the liver enzyme tests would quickly go abnormal. The conclusion is that people who have this liver condition must not drink at all. The same applies to all sorts of people with all sorts of health issues. Alcohol exacerbates a lot of underlying problems.

That makes one wonder whether for most people the negatives might outweigh the positives, even in very small amounts. It is more and more beginning to seem that that may be the case.

How far is it fair for me to carry this analogy forward with the pluses and minuses of religion? As with alcohol, a dose of religion can serve to lower one's blood pressure and make one feel better and more sociable. Still there is a price -- unnoticed but that regardless must be paid. There is a similar price with belief -- not just religious belief. Beliefs are an instinctive way of shortcutting rationality, derived from natural selection and basically animal in nature, and in a world dependent on reason, they do insidious and hidden harm.

Cats have a wonderful set of survival instincts, but in a rational city they are in grave peril depending on instincts and need human protection.

We should avoid beliefs as we should avoid intoxicants, and instead try as much as possible to rely strictly on opinions we have good reasons to accept but can modify or abandon given good rational grounds for doing so, and without any institutional or emotional or traditional grasping.

Edited by Frank Merton
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Mr Walker

MW, you are addressing maladaptive anger, it is called aggression, I agree and it is intended to harm someone either verbally or bodily. There is no arguement from me that this is harmful. What I am talking about is anger, normal natural anger, the kind of emotional reaction that may say to a child in a firm tone never play with matches, or do not touch the stove. it's the tone that says mom and dad need you to pay attention and listen. It's the tone of offense that insists that second hand smoke and respecting the health of those that do not smoke to go smoke somewhere else. It is the motivation behind the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement. Anger is the parent or the person who advocates for their child or themselves by seeking a fair resolution of an issue. It is the tone that says I matter and I am worth fighting for. It is our way of letting others know that this is our line and please respect our boundaries. It's the emotion that insists we speak our mind it is the void that says treat me with dignity. This Anger leads to conflict resolution. It says I am not okay with this, let's define my limits and find a win win for us both. It never has to be harmful bodily or verbally. It's the statement that says I agree to disagree, it's the tone that says enough, no more, and I mean it. It is as viable today as it ever was and it is part of life. Life has positive and negative aspects, that is reality. I tend to be positive and optimistic as a temperament, but I still get angry on occassion and I have bad days, people I love die and I get sad and I grieve, I live a life full of love and happiness and still I have moments of disappointment and then I habe great joy. I am good with this, I have great friends and strong support systems. Are you honestly trying to say you do not ever anger or frustrate your wife in 40 years of marriage, that your wife has never had to tell you enough, and done so without harm or violence?

IMO ALL anger is maladaptive UNLESS it creates a constructive outcome I have never seen it do this. I think you have been seduced by the common viewpoint that anger is natural and necessary. A firm tone is not anger Feeling strongly is not anger. Anger is where your mind and body reacts in certain ways and you begin to react to those mind/ body signals rather than thinking logically. Your heart rate increases, your breath rate increases and becomes more shallow as you you try to get more oxygen, your blood pressure rises, your adrenalin begins to rise..

But and here is the important thing, You can control your mind and body so as to prevent these physiological triggers from occurring by using simple mental and physical strategies.

Assertiveness is NOT anger.

Of course I frustrate my wife. She has not learned the same mental disciplines as me., She was a free range child known as a tomboy or hobbledehoy, because her father was away at war and her younger bother was very ill and needed all her mothers attention. so she was left to her own devices. But she never frustrates me or makes me angry or scared .

I was rigorously parented as an oldest child by parents and grand parents and uncles and aunties. It was common for me to have many hours each day, of to face to face, one on one contact with adults in my family, teaching me all sorts of skills and disciplines. Knitting,, sewing, cooking, mechanics, reading, writing mathematics etc., well before i was school age. To do this you first had to have a quiet and disciplined mind.. I was taught to not fear, not get angry or frustrated. I was taught not to be jealous angry or envious and to control my desires for attention more food etc. I was taught to still my mind get inside my head and know my thoughts and the causes of my actions This was more common practice in young people of that time when a mother and grandparents were home all day and before television corroded family life.

You had to sit still without speaking in many places, such as school, church, home, cinema or any adults house with abuts present and at the meal table You asked permission to get up from the table when you finished your meal You asked permission to speak. (as a young child)

So you learned mental self discipline from birth.

Writing this I thought of my parents All their lives, when i was a child and as an adult,i never saw either of them angry or afraid, envious of others or greedy or spiteful or holding a grudge They were always calm rational and in control of there minds and bodies. They always could and did give a logical rational reason for everything they said and did, and they expected the same from us..They might express disappointment in certain behaviours and punish them but they never expressed anything but love for us and never punished us as people, ONLY our behaviours. . .

Ps I have never raised my voice in anger to my wife in 40 years of marriage and certainly never even thought about physically touching her in a coercive or angry way In 60 yeas of marriage my father never did either of those things to my mother or any other woman .From observation and anecdote neither did either of my grandfathers. It was not how you treated other people, especially those you loved.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Stubbly_Dooright

That is my point. Because I am human can choose my emotional responses Do you REALLY accept that it is acceptable for a man to kill woman because he couldn't stop himself getting angry when she belittled him, for example? . Or for a wife to kill her husband when she finds him cheating on her, just because she cannot control how she feels?

What is not acceptable is the crime of someone killing someone. Makes me wonder if you accept someone killing someone, when there is no feeling behind it, because I know in my observations that does happen. Anger is healthy, and spouses get angry at there spouses all the time, and spouses have to deal with their emotions when they are cheated on. Hiding them and living on denying the feelings ends up worse for them. I have often found that acknowledging the anger from something the other did and talking it out and expressing in a healthy manner is healthier, and more than likely will keep someone from doing something worse if denying and choosing an emotion to hide from the problem.

The biological responses of anger are LEARNED not innate. People don't just feel things or get angry until they learn to do so in response to fill a need At a basic animal level we have some of the reflexes of all animals but because of our minds we can either heighten those responses or eliminate them I agree with many of your points but disagree that anger and fear is ever the best way to react. With any situation Logic and intelligence work far more effectively. Fight/fight is a counter productive response in modern humans. We learned it via evolution millennia ago, but today our knowledge and minds and technology are far more critical to our survival. Thus we have to unlearn fight /flight reflexes or end up dead, or in prison.

Why DEAL with fear or anger when you can eliminate them n the first place?

Because you cannot eliminate them. This post is so untrue. I have a hard time accepting they are learned when I have seen every infant and toddler express their anger all the time. It's when they are older and their parents teach them how to behave it and how to work through their anger. My mother and then myself as a mother, learned to allow our toddlers to scream in a corner until all cried and screamed out, then later was talked to. I and she have found how that actually allowed the little one to feel worked through it. It would be later on that they were old enough to work through emotions to behave better.

While having self control is good, it's not good to try and repress all emotions. You have to feel life. The good and the bad. Telling someone to suck it up and deal with can be good with something's. However I feel that such emotions such as grief and sadness should be worked through. I still don't see what this has to do with my OP?

I've learned a great deal of self control in my years as a once occult practioner.

Yeah, I think you needed to point that out. You know how it is, ;) something else is said and then that tangent flows. Not saying it's right.

I am not talking about "repressing ' emotions. We learn to feel emotions, as a response to interactions, from our family/society.

Some responses are productive. Others are not. In a civilised society, where we live very close to each other, and to strangers not family or clan, and have tools for destruction like guns or motor cars, why encourage destructive emotions or consequences?. How do we stop violence abuse etc until children learn more appropriate ways to feel good about themselves and to react to others?

Actually you do not HAVE to feel pain and loss and sorrow or anger fear or grief. . Why not live a life filled with joy, happiness, and peace?

Work out why you get angry or afraid and why you feel anger and fear, and then use will and discipline not to feel those things. Work out why you feel joy and then choose that feeling. Why do so many people fear death when it comes to us all? Use logic and knowledge to protect yourself. Understand why you fear death. and it is possible not to fear it at all. Understand why you feel loneliness. and you can learn not to feel it. Know why you get angry and you can choose not to get angry. This is about empowerment and choice.

Tell me; when a close loved one dies, should a human being feel grief or joy? Then answer is that they should feel the emotion they choose as appropriate for them. and which is most constructive for their own future and for the future of those around them. If grief brings a family closer, then it is appropriate. If it drives them apart then it is not. if it motivates them positively it is good. If it stops them functioning for a year, or even more, then it is not. I heard on the radio yesterday the story of a writer whose father's suicide wiped out a year of his life, (He cant remember it and spent it in a sort of fugue state ) and from which it took over a decade for him to function properly again.

The red bolded part is exactly what I am talking about, but yet that part is totally opposite to the rest of your post. You really don't see the difference, do you? :o
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Mr Walker

What she said ^. My guess MW you have never dealt with people who have brain injuries or damage of some sort. One time I had an MS exacerbation which affected my emotions. It was like someone would spin a wheel and where the wheel stopped that is the emotion I would have. It is called pseudobulbar affect. Sometime you laugh uncontrollably, start crying or become angry. It could be really embarrassing, because the emotion is unrelated to the situation you're in. Believe me you feel the emotion you just don't know why. One time I was in a typing class and suddenly burst into tears. I got up and excused myself and went out to hall where I had to explain to the instructor what was happening. Nothing like a wonky brain to teach how brains work. I was glad when the exacerbation went away after a couple of months and it stopped happening. Our emotions really come from brain chemistry. Which is why psychoactive drugs work.

I think I said early in the conversation "in normal healthy minds, and not where there is a chemical imbalance" Same applies for brain injury.

In a normal healthy mind the mind can exercise complete control over emotions. It only has to be taught the skills to do so. You can learn how to work out why you feel certain emotions For example you can feel some grief a decade after an event if something touches it in your mind. A sense of a smell can produce trauma in child abuse victims years later, by association.

You can also control your brain chemistry and the body chemistry which influences the brain; through knowledge, will, discipline and practice.

You can calm yourself, eliminate fear, anger, etc. through mental discipline UNLESS you are clinically unwell, when you will benefit from drug therapy.

Human emotions are NOT biological as much as they are intellectual constructs. For example the men in the trenches in ww1 were afraid because of their awareness of the nature of loss, of the nature of death, and the fear of losing loved ones. Not from some basic biological driver terrifying them. But even the biological elements of fear (or any emotion) can be controlled/eliminated, or replaced, by conscious self will and discipline This can even help people with degrees of brain damage or chemical imbalance, although, for such people medical attention is also needed.

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