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XenoFish

Pointlessness of Religion

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Mr Walker

What is not acceptable is the crime of someone killing someone. Makes me wonder if you accept someone killing someone, when there is no feeling behind it, because I know in my observations that does happen. Anger is healthy, and spouses get angry at there spouses all the time, and spouses have to deal with their emotions when they are cheated on. Hiding them and living on denying the feelings ends up worse for them. I have often found that acknowledging the anger from something the other did and talking it out and expressing in a healthy manner is healthier, and more than likely will keep someone from doing something worse if denying and choosing an emotion to hide from the problem.

Because you cannot eliminate them. This post is so untrue. I have a hard time accepting they are learned when I have seen every infant and toddler express their anger all the time. It's when they are older and their parents teach them how to behave it and how to work through their anger. My mother and then myself as a mother, learned to allow our toddlers to scream in a corner until all cried and screamed out, then later was talked to. I and she have found how that actually allowed the little one to feel worked through it. It would be later on that they were old enough to work through emotions to behave better.

Yeah, I think you needed to point that out. You know how it is, ;) something else is said and then that tangent flows. Not saying it's right.

The red bolded part is exactly what I am talking about, but yet that part is totally opposite to the rest of your post. You really don't see the difference, do you? :o

It is a mistaken belief construct that anger is healthy I don't think there is ANY clinical evidence to suggest this.

Yes some people kill rationally, but the huge majority of deaths and injuries especially among civilians in the west is through emotional reactions.

You don't have to "deal with" an emotion you choose not to feel.

Why feel anger at a cheating spouse? What good does it do you or any one else? Just leave them, and get on with your life. Much better for all.

Dont hide anger, don't repress it don't sublimate it These are responses from someone who still feels anger and of course the tension causes stress and illness of body an mind. .

Rationally and intellectually choose not to feel anger, then just carry out your decision through an act of mental will. Then there will be no inner conflict.

Why did your kids scream? Your's isn't a bad strategy, but ask why the kids screamed in the first place ? While it is quite normal for very young children with no better communication device, you can soon teach them it simply is not an effective strategy to get their way (or they can learn that it is) (and your response would help them learn it is pointless to scream.

I would have been given a quick smack which would have taught me even more quickly, and well before I could understand verbal explanations. . . I don't think anyone in our family screamed or threw a tantrum after about age 1. It just wasn't done, and such behaviour was never modelled to us by adults. My great nieces and nephews are the same in this modern age They don't scream, act out, or throw tantrums, because they neve learned to do so .

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Raptor Witness

I'm an agnostic of a different stripe. I'm an indifferent agnostic, or I could be called an apatheist. I really don't care whether or not there is a God.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism

You care.

You're in open hostility to faith.

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XenoFish
You're in open hostility to faith.

Have you proof of this?

If overdone. The definition of "overdone" I think is relative per individual sadly

It's when someone becomes a fanatical believer in something that's when it goes wrong.

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Raptor Witness

No one who follows the faithful around to criticize them can say, "I don't care about God."

He cares ... Otherwise he would be posting somewhere else.

Edited by Raptor Witness

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XenoFish

Maybe like myself he's interested in the psychological stand point of those who have a religious irrational belief.

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Michelle

Maybe like myself he's interested in the psychological stand point of those who have a religious irrational belief.

:lol: That's funny...I find it fascinating people are so concerned with what other people believe. I could care less if they aren't hurting anyone.

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Leonardo

:lol: That's funny...I find it fascinating people are so concerned with what other people believe. I could care less if they aren't hurting anyone.

I find Formula 1 incredibly boring, yet others are fascinated by it. We all have different interests, wondering why people are as they are is one such interest.

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XenoFish

I could always be a hardcore anti-religion individual, but I'd rather try to understand people's thoughts and feelings about their faith. The how and why of it all.

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Michelle

Well, nothing opens up the lines of communication like ridiculing someone's deeply held beliefs and calling them irrational. :su

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XenoFish

If they were truly secure in their beliefs no ones words would affect them.

Edited by XenoFish
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Michelle

They are Christians, not saints. If only men were so secure in their manhood they wouldn't resort to physical violence over mere words. Before you say not all men, if all Christians can all be lumped together so can men.

Edited by Michelle

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Sherapy

IMO ALL anger is maladaptive UNLESS it creates a constructive outcome I have never seen it do this. I think you have been seduced by the common viewpoint that anger is natural and necessary. A firm tone is not anger Feeling strongly is not anger. Anger is where your mind and body reacts in certain ways and you begin to react to those mind/ body signals rather than thinking logically. Your heart rate increases, your breath rate increases and becomes more shallow as you you try to get more oxygen, your blood pressure rises, your adrenalin begins to rise..

But and here is the important thing, You can control your mind and body so as to prevent these physiological triggers from occurring by using simple mental and physical strategies.

Assertiveness is NOT anger.

Of course I frustrate my wife. She has not learned the same mental disciplines as me., She was a free range child known as a tomboy or hobbledehoy, because her father was away at war and her younger bother was very ill and needed all her mothers attention. so she was left to her own devices. But she never frustrates me or makes me angry or scared .

I was rigorously parented as an oldest child by parents and grand parents and uncles and aunties. It was common for me to have many hours each day, of to face to face, one on one contact with adults in my family, teaching me all sorts of skills and disciplines. Knitting,, sewing, cooking, mechanics, reading, writing mathematics etc., well before i was school age. To do this you first had to have a quiet and disciplined mind.. I was taught to not fear, not get angry or frustrated. I was taught not to be jealous angry or envious and to control my desires for attention more food etc. I was taught to still my mind get inside my head and know my thoughts and the causes of my actions This was more common practice in young people of that time when a mother and grandparents were home all day and before television corroded family life.

You had to sit still without speaking in many places, such as school, church, home, cinema or any adults house with abuts present and at the meal table You asked permission to get up from the table when you finished your meal You asked permission to speak. (as a young child)

So you learned mental self discipline from birth.

Writing this I thought of my parents All their lives, when i was a child and as an adult,i never saw either of them angry or afraid, envious of others or greedy or spiteful or holding a grudge They were always calm rational and in control of there minds and bodies. They always could and did give a logical rational reason for everything they said and did, and they expected the same from us..They might express disappointment in certain behaviours and punish them but they never expressed anything but love for us and never punished us as people, ONLY our behaviours. . .

Ps I have never raised my voice in anger to my wife in 40 years of marriage and certainly never even thought about physically touching her in a coercive or angry way In 60 yeas of marriage my father never did either of those things to my mother or any other woman .From observation and anecdote neither did either of my grandfathers. It was not how you treated other people, especially those you loved.

MW, wow, you have never had a disagreement, or been angry and resolved it constructively?

MW, I had read many posts from you that you were beat with a cane as a child by your parents; how does this become they were in perfect control of their bodies at all times.

Also, if you were punished then this is the aspect of anger that seeks payback or retribution of the slight or offense. I am not making a judgment about it; I am just pointing out that this is aggressive anger in action. The natural expreason of anger seeks to set and follow thru on boundaries, assertively, MW. That is the difference.

Emotional responses are normal and a natural part of life this includes the negative ones, they serve a purpose. This includes painful things it alerts us that we have to take action, have you ever had a toothache?

For me, it's the Coping strategies you put into place that matters MW, how you master, reduce or tolerate life's daily stressors. I personally stay close to what Psychology educates about emotions; I use science based information and go from there. There is no way I am going to be happy every moment, there is stress in life ( good and bad) and the most effective coping strategy is to be able to be adaptive. Trying to avoid, deny, or control your emotional responses, never acknowledging you have them is counterproductive (IMO); I saw my mom do this, she was always sick and died last year from cancer, I think it played a big part. Just honoring your natural emotional responses in a normal way in and of itself lends to a happy fulfilling life, regardless of the negative moments.

Edited by Sherapy
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GoldenWolf

They are Christians, not saints. If only men were so secure in their manhood they wouldn't resort to physical violence over mere words. Before you say not all men, if all Christians can all be lumped together so can men.

Nope, not all men are programmed by the bible.

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XenoFish

Well put Leonardo.

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Likely Guy

You care.

You're in open hostility to faith.

I'm sorry, I missed where I ever made a statement that could be considered hostile to faith. Perhaps you could direct me to that statement I supposedly made?

And no, I don't really care if there is a God or not, or do you consider that as being openly hostile to atheism as well?

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Michelle

There are many rational reasons to hold irrational beliefs, but that doesn't make those beliefs any less irrational. The Christians have a saying that some here are fond of using, "love the sinner, hate the sin", well can't we non-religious likewise say we find irrational beliefs irrational, without demeaning the holder of those beliefs just as those religious folk who "hate sin" say they aren't demeaning the sinner?

Maybe I'm a little odd or just old fashioned. I've rarely seen a rational discussion come from challenging someone to defend their beliefs, or feelings for that matter. I know more than a few gay Christians and I would never ask them to try and justify to me how they come to terms with that obvious contradiction.

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XenoFish
They are Christians, not saints. If only men were so secure in their manhood they wouldn't resort to physical violence over mere words. Before you say not all men, if all Christians can all be lumped together so can men.

What supposedly makes a saint greater than the generic Christian? Besides a title. That's like saying their Average Joe's, not Politicians. Some women resort to violence just as easy as men do, over mere words.

I know more than a few gay Christians and I would never ask them to try and justify to me how they come to terms with that obvious contradiction.

That's because religion can be a security blanket to some people. It makes them feel safe in a dangerous world, etc. By believing that some imaginary being has their back. A false sense of security. When things go your way, god's on your side. If it doesn't just blame the devil for your miss fortunes or maybe it isn't god's will.

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Likely Guy

That's because religion can be a security blanket to some people. It makes them feel safe in a dangerous world, etc. By believing that some imaginary being has their back. A false sense of security. When things go your way, god's on your side. If it doesn't just blame the devil for your miss fortunes or maybe it isn't god's will.

I see your point, but that's a little harsh in my humble opinion. Maybe God doesn't give a god's damn about me, or you, or the next person? Maybe it's more entwined with the bigger picture?

Not that I'm concerned either, Raptor Witness (if you're out there). If it's existance were proven, I would not lead my life any differently. Like others, I'm just curious as to what others believe, not into the ultimate answer to the age old debate between atheists and theists, which, I believe we'll be long dead as a species before an answer is (never?) presented.

Edited by Likely Guy

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Michelle

Some women resort to violence just as easy as men do, over mere words.

Sounds like we are all *gasp* human.

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NewAge1
I know more than a few gay Christians and I would never ask them to try and justify to me how they come to terms with that obvious contradiction.

There isn't really a contradiction, in the sense that as it is told, Jesus was accepting of everyone, including the marginalized, the poors, the sicks ect. The core of his teaching is love, tolerance and forgiveness. At the end of the day, what some conservative priests may believe doesn't really matter, as I see it a Christian is a person who follow the message of Jesus Christ, not necesserely the biblical interpretations of others.

I find this article on this subject quite interesting:

http://www.wouldjesu...rly_church.html

Edited by samus
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DieChecker

That's because religion can be a security blanket to some people. It makes them feel safe in a dangerous world, etc. By believing that some imaginary being has their back. A false sense of security. When things go your way, god's on your side. If it doesn't just blame the devil for your miss fortunes or maybe it isn't god's will.

That blanket can come from many things, even Atheism, gives them a sense that they are in control and in the right. Such a belief may be based on science and evidence, but it makes it no less a security blanket that a person can cling to. I'd say that finding such a blanket is a very, very human thing to do, and it just happens that religion has a long standing tradition that people enjoy and can easily grasp.

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DieChecker

Nope, not all men are programmed by the bible.

And sadly, not all men are programmed by men. It is a horrendous issue in single parent families. Such boys (and girls, I suppose) grow up with a dad and have major issues due to that lack).

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NewAge1

I see your point, but that's a little harsh in my humble opinion. Maybe God doesn't give a god's damn about me, or you, or the next person? Maybe it's more entwined with the bigger picture?

What fascinates me is that some people seem to believe that if a particular set of doctrines forming a religion is deemed 'irrational', then the 'God' theory must therefore be wrong.

I beg to differ, there are people who don't base their beliefs on organized religons at all, and take it on reason, intuition, observation and experience.

Here's an idea: What if a Creative Intelligence decided to realize Itself, take a material form and became the Universe with It's own governing dynamics? Why should a Deity create a Universe and step back to watch the show, when this Creative Intelligence could actually become the spectator, the stage, the actors and the decor all at once?

- If our Creator became the Universe, if we are of our Creator in this fragmentary sense, wafting on the winds of an unconscious sustainment desptie our illusion of concreteness, then all of our religious visions represent such manifestations, glimpses of the commonalities well known within the unconscious mind of the metaphysical progenitor of which we are so stunningly a part. -

See:

Here's the refreshing perspective of astrophycisist Dr Bernard Haisch on what the 'God Theory' can be:

Link:

Edited by samus
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DieChecker

If they were truly secure in their beliefs no ones words would affect them.

I'd agree with that. I personally would never let what another person is trying to push influence my belief system. I would listen, and examine what they said, and I would change my theology only based on what I "feel" is right. I say "feel" because there isn't any other way to decide right and wrong in a theological situation, other then perhaps by the majority opinion of those you trust.

It's when someone becomes a fanatical believer in something that's when it goes wrong.

The problem with that is that to some people any belief is fanatical.

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