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Xeno-Fish

Pointlessness of Religion

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Frank Merton

What fascinates me is that some people seem to believe that if a particular set of doctrines forming a religion is deemed 'irrational', then the 'God' theory must be wrong.

The problem with the God theory is that it itself is irrational, and, worse (there are lots of things in the universe that we can't understand and can therefore call irrational) but that it lacks sufficient evidence for belief and a theory that important needs lots and lots of evidence.
Here's an idea: What if a Creative Intelligence decided to realize Itself, take a material form and became the Universe? Why should a Deity create a Universe and step back to watch the show, when this Creative Intelligence could actually become the spectator, the stage, the actors and the decor all at once?
Oh I can think up lots of ideas like that. In fact most Eastern 'religions' do. Means little without evidence.
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DieChecker

I have a chronic liver condition known as chronic hepatitis B. It doesn't go away and as far as tests tell us is just sitting there doing me no harm. However, were I to have a few drinks, the liver enzyme tests would quickly go abnormal. The conclusion is that people who have this liver condition must not drink at all. The same applies to all sorts of people with all sorts of health issues. Alcohol exacerbates a lot of underlying problems.

Sorry to hear about that Frank. If you like I will pray that the disease does go away? Or that a cure will be found. It may seem irrational, and pointless, but I'm willing to do it, and what will you have lost?

We should avoid beliefs as we should avoid intoxicants, and instead try as much as possible to rely strictly on opinions we have good reasons to accept but can modify or abandon given good rational grounds for doing so, and without any institutional or emotional or traditional grasping.

The US did try to Prohibit alcohol some time ago on a national level, and it did not work. Why? Because we are human, not because of alcohol. People desired the positives so much more then they recognized the negatives that the Amendment to the US Constitution had to have a countering Amendment legislated into place.

When we are ready to toss Alcohol, marijuana and all other illegal and/or recreational drugs, then perhaps we'll also be ready to ban religion.

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Frank Merton

And sadly, not all men are programmed by men. It is a horrendous issue in single parent families. Such boys (and girls, I suppose) grow up with a dad and have major issues due to that lack).

I don't know that having a parent of each sex necessarily helps: there are plenty of scenarios where it hurts. Besides, we don't want a gray world where everyone has the same youth -- variety, even warts, is needed.
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NewAge1

The problem with the God theory is that it itself is irrational, and, worse (there are lots of things in the universe that we can't understand and can therefore call irrational) but that it lacks sufficient evidence for belief and a theory that important needs lots and lots of evidence.

I don't see the 'God' theory as irrational at all. Why should it be? Is it any less irrational than the fact that I am here counciously typing this message and maintained by the force of gravity on a tiny planet with an atmosphere orbiting a young star in the outer reach of a spiral galaxy? At the end of the day, rationality can only take you so far.

Oh I can think up lots of ideas like that. In fact most Eastern 'religions' do. Means little without evidence.

I am not saying you should subscribe to this idea, if it doesn't make sense to you. Nor do I personally need to accept your worldview, whatever it is. I seriously doubt that you can provide objective proofs either. That's the thing, we can only speculate pending more answers. Therefore it is a matter of choices and beliefs.

Edited by samus

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Frank Merton

Sorry to hear about that Frank. If you like I will pray that the disease does go away? Or that a cure will be found. It may seem irrational, and pointless, but I'm willing to do it, and what will you have lost?

Several promising cures are in the works, and meantime so long as I avoid toxins and acetaminophen I should almost certainly die of something else.
The US did try to Prohibit alcohol some time ago on a national level, and it did not work. Why? Because we are human, not because of alcohol. People desired the positives so much more then they recognized the negatives that the Amendment to the US Constitution had to have a countering Amendment legislated into place.

When we are ready to toss Alcohol, marijuana and all other illegal and/or recreational drugs, then perhaps we'll also be ready to ban religion.

I never advocated prohibition and would oppose it. I just advocate that people don't drink.
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DieChecker

I don't know that having a parent of each sex necessarily helps: there are plenty of scenarios where it hurts. Besides, we don't want a gray world where everyone has the same youth -- variety, even warts, is needed.

There are situations where having a parent of both sexes Hurts a child somehow? Can you provide a link, or say... four examples?

You seem to indicate that societal variability would be a better thing over being socially, morally, and mentally healthy. Should a single person suffer the loss of a parental male input to allow for more diversity?

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DieChecker

Several promising cures are in the works, and meantime so long as I avoid toxins and acetaminophen I should almost certainly die of something else.

That sounds like a soft "no thank you". :innocent:

I never advocated prohibition and would oppose it. I just advocate that people don't drink.

I feel much the same about drugs, but I feel differently about religion. Though I'm big enough to admit I'm very likely biased.

I've seen strong marriages, lifetime jobs, efforts that turned peoples lives around, free money to the destitute, free food to the starving... all come out of my local religious organization. I've never known alcohol to purposefully generate any of those things.

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Frank Merton

There are situations where having a parent of both sexes Hurts a child somehow? Can you provide a link, or say... four examples?

You seem to indicate that societal variability would be a better thing over being socially, morally, and mentally healthy. Should a single person suffer the loss of a parental male input to allow for more diversity?

You are revealing a cultural bias. When the man abuses the wife is a good enough example.

I remember a fiction story where someone magically got a wish and wished for world harmony. The resulting picture was not pretty.

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DieChecker

You are revealing a cultural bias. When the man abuses the wife is a good enough example.

I remember a fiction story where someone magically got a wish and wished for world harmony. The resulting picture was not pretty.

Depends on if you are arguing the health of the children, or the wife...

Even in the situation where the man abuses the wife, the children are better off in the long run. The wife is worse off, but the children (statistically) are better off.

Some statistics: (From the USA I suppose)

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) – 5 times the average.

90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes – 32 times the average.

85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)

80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes –14 times the average. (Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)

71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (National Principals Association Report)

https://thefatherles...com/statistics/

Are you really arguing that a kid from a single mother will usually do better? Or..... that there are exceptions to every rule? Because I agree there will be exceptions. But the general rule is that kids of a single parent will usually do a lot worse in life.

Edited by DieChecker
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Leonardo

Depends on if you are arguing the health of the children, or the wife...

Even in the situation where the man abuses the wife, the children are better off in the long run. The wife is worse off, but the children (statistically) are better off.

Some statistics: (From the USA I suppose)

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) – 5 times the average.

90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes – 32 times the average.

85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)

80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes –14 times the average. (Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)

71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (National Principals Association Report)

And do those statistics suggest that it is necessarily the lack of a father that is the 'cause' of all those situations?

Remember, "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics".

Edited by Leonardo
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Leonardo

Maybe I'm a little odd or just old fashioned. I've rarely seen a rational discussion come from challenging someone to defend their beliefs, or feelings for that matter. I know more than a few gay Christians and I would never ask them to try and justify to me how they come to terms with that obvious contradiction.

Why not?

Okay, maybe you just aren't interested in what makes people 'tick', but others are and an answer to such a conundrum would surely be most interesting?

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Stubbly_Dooright

It is a mistaken belief construct that anger is healthy I don't think there is ANY clinical evidence to suggest this.

I do not think I ever said that anger itself is healthy. Working through it after acknowledging it, is! What is healthy is that you know you feel it, instead of thinking you can choose to not feel it, when in truth you actually do. It's a mistake to think I'm saying something when I'm not.
Yes some people kill rationally, but the huge majority of deaths and injuries especially among civilians in the west is through emotional reactions.
Yes, but I have observed more of the first ones more than you probably have realized. I firmly believe that those responsible for Columbine, the Colorado theater, and Sandy Hook( this hits close to home) didn't show anger, but a more methodical way of doing it.
You don't have to "deal with" an emotion you choose not to feel.
Guess what?!?!?! The reason why I know deep in my heart you are soooooooooooooo very wrong, is I thought I could do that in my younger years. Along with what I have noticed with my accident, I thought I too can choose my feelings. I went through choosing to love a friend, when I didn't love him that way. I choose not to feel anger at various individuals, thinking I'm getting along with them. I chose to feel something different than what was true to me. And what was true to me, was what was bubbling deep down in my heart, because I noticed how there and instinctual they were they. So, when I was going through life thinking I chose to feel something that wasn't true, I WENT NUTS!. Nothing tragic happened, I made sure of that, but I was a mess. That was a time in my life of how so confusing and very shakily I was. After realizing I knew what I was feeling, and doing things needed to understand how to make myself happy when acknowledging my true feelings, THAT was when I found peace. It was also when those who think they can use me had a rude awakening. When they saw in my eyes how I felt about them, some either felt guilt, others made amends they should have done a long time ago. I am sooooo at peace today, because I wasn't stupid. I'm being honest with myself and being resourceful in my actions, but not my heart. That's the truth! And that is why I will always feel how so very wrong you are in the 'choosing to feel' subject. Because I know how wrong it is, because I learned the hard way.
Why feel anger at a cheating spouse?
Because it's the true feelings of being betrayed. Plus, they deserve it.
What good does it do you or any one else?
What good does it do to you as a walking time bomb?
Just leave them, and get on with your life. Much better for all.
Ooooh, I thought you wanted them to ignore the feelings and just stay with them. Totally surprised about that. But I do feel you are ignoring the feelings of someone who emotionally tied to that person who cheated. Oh yeah, you can choose to feel love or not! :rolleyes: Of course, you know I don't feel that can be done. :no:
Dont hide anger, don't repress it don't sublimate it These are responses from someone who still feels anger and of course the tension causes stress and illness of body an mind. .

Rationally and intellectually choose not to feel anger,

That's not rational.
then just carry out your decision through an act of mental will. Then there will be no inner conflict.

Why did your kids scream? Your's isn't a bad strategy, but ask why the kids screamed in the first place ? While it is quite normal for very young children with no better communication device, you can soon teach them it simply is not an effective strategy to get their way (or they can learn that it is) (and your response would help them learn it is pointless to scream.

You don't seem to understand when it comes to little ones who are still in the process of learning to communicate. There are many reasons, and a parent understanding and being there is the first. I'm not going to make my kids into robots. And since I have shown them that their feelings are real and to work through them, they are more emotionally healthy today. Some of their friends, who grew up being taught to not show, not feel these feelings, I have been told by my kids, have gone into drugs and criminal behavior. You are the last person to lecture me on how I have raised my children. Considering they turned out GREAT, I don't think I did anything wrong there. :yes:

I would have been given a quick smack which would have taught me even more quickly, and well before I could understand verbal explanations. . . I don't think anyone in our family screamed or threw a tantrum after about age 1. It just wasn't done, and such behaviour was never modelled to us by adults. My great nieces and nephews are the same in this modern age They don't scream, act out, or throw tantrums, because they neve learned to do so .

I don't believe that for one second. No offense there, but I simply do not believe that. End of it!
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Stubbly_Dooright

I find Formula 1 incredibly boring, yet others are fascinated by it. We all have different interests, wondering why people are as they are is one such interest.

Exactly my feeling on reality shows. I have no interest in how people are in their real lives, (dealt with that on a daily basis living in military housing) so I really don't want to watch them, but so many people do and talk about it. I certainly don't want to get in the way of their entertainment, but I'm sorry, I rather all the reality shows disappear.

If they were truly secure in their beliefs no ones words would affect them.

Amen to that!!! ..................oops, sorry. :innocent:

That blanket can come from many things, even Atheism, gives them a sense that they are in control and in the right. Such a belief may be based on science and evidence, but it makes it no less a security blanket that a person can cling to. I'd say that finding such a blanket is a very, very human thing to do, and it just happens that religion has a long standing tradition that people enjoy and can easily grasp.

I can your point on this. I think that maybe in some ways, that could be me. I would also think that the desire to be in control of one's own life and faith, is probably an honorable thing and not to be looked down upon. I'm not saying you are DieChecker, or anyone else, but I would like to put a positive spin on it, if that is.................ok? *looks sheepish*

There are situations where having a parent of both sexes Hurts a child somehow? Can you provide a link, or say... four examples?

I'm sorry DieChecker, but I have seen way too many married father and mother families that have abused their children. So I know, that it's not a actual given a father being there is the cure. If that father, (and mother) is troubled or is trouble, they make it worse. I have friends who grew up in foster care and have healthy and loving memories of it. I know people who grew up with one parent and that one parent raised a hell of a great person. I could find statistics, but when it comes to what I think about the traditional formula, it's not always true.

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Raptor Witness

I repeat, atheists and agnostics who repeatedly post in this section of the forum are self-deists.

They think that their opinion makes them God.

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Xeno-Fish
I repeat, atheists and agnostics who repeatedly post in this section of the forum are self-deists.

They think that their opinion makes them God.

I don't think that. Isn't open debate what this whole section is about? Tell us that we think were gods, coming from a guy who can supposedly predict the future. Seriously?

Amen to that!!! ..................oops, sorry.

LOL :P

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Raptor Witness

I've been dealing with skeptics for a long time. An elephant could sit on them, and they wouldn't ask to breathe until they blacked out.

Last year, they begged for a tornado forecast, showing them where the greatest number of deaths would occur in the U.S., because of my previous tornado warnings here.

They chased me from one forum to the other, begging to see signs and miracles. A true agnostic or atheist would ignore such things, and find better things to do with their time.

Knowing that they were testing me, I refused to give the humanists a forecast, but instead kept pointing to Manifest Destiny, over and over again.

Then, like a hammer from heaven, the greatest number of deaths last year, began in two cities underlining the concept of Manifest Destiny.

Even more remarkable, the type of tornadoes, which struck these two cities, make up only 1% of all tornadoes on earth.

Not only that, but they are the only two cities in America with independent government, named after the Mayflower ship, and the people she carried to the New World.

Together, they spelled "Manifest Destiny."

Mayflower, Arkansas - EF4

Pilger(Pilgrim,) Nebraska - Twin EF4's

Edited by Raptor Witness

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DieChecker

I can your point on this. I think that maybe in some ways, that could be me. I would also think that the desire to be in control of one's own life and faith, is probably an honorable thing and not to be looked down upon. I'm not saying you are DieChecker, or anyone else, but I would like to put a positive spin on it, if that is.................ok? *looks sheepish*

:tu: I just meant to point out that though religion can be a security blanket, humanity can use anything for that blanket. I wasn't considering it dishonorable, just simply a very human thing to do.

I'm sorry DieChecker, but I have seen way too many married father and mother families that have abused their children. So I know, that it's not a actual given a father being there is the cure. If that father, (and mother) is troubled or is trouble, they make it worse. I have friends who grew up in foster care and have healthy and loving memories of it. I know people who grew up with one parent and that one parent raised a hell of a great person. I could find statistics, but when it comes to what I think about the traditional formula, it's not always true.

:tu: I understand, and see your points.

Many of those families that have abusive fathers, or mothers, are the result of one or the other pf that abusive person's own parents being abusive. What we have there is a cycle of abuse, which is a Human problem, not a man problem.

Given a completely healthy parental situation. Having a male parent and a female parent provides the best situation for kids of both sexes to be raised. Don't get me wrong, I think a two parent gay family is also better then a single parent family. And I way, way, way would prefer even a single parent family to a kid going into the foster program, or adoption. I've known several adopted kids and they all have issues based on the fact they were adopted.

Doubtless there are tons of people who were adopted and who were fostered, and who were raised by a single mother, who did Fantastically. But who is to say that if those same people had had two natural parents, a man and a woman, that they wouldn't have done even batter, and been even more healthy? Statistics would seem to indicate this to be true.

Are there not abusive mothers, and abusive fathers? Are men more prone to mental instability?

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Sherapy

It is a mistaken belief construct that anger is healthy I don't think there is ANY clinical evidence to suggest this.

Yes some people kill rationally, but the huge majority of deaths and injuries especially among civilians in the west is through emotional reactions.

You don't have to "deal with" an emotion you choose not to feel.

Why feel anger at a cheating spouse? What good does it do you or any one else? Just leave them, and get on with your life. Much better for all.

Dont hide anger, don't repress it don't sublimate it These are responses from someone who still feels anger and of course the tension causes stress and illness of body an mind. .

Rationally and intellectually choose not to feel anger, then just carry out your decision through an act of mental will. Then there will be no inner conflict.

Why did your kids scream? Your's isn't a bad strategy, but ask why the kids screamed in the first place ? While it is quite normal for very young children with no better communication device, you can soon teach them it simply is not an effective strategy to get their way (or they can learn that it is) (and your response would help them learn it is pointless to scream.

I would have been given a quick smack which would have taught me even more quickly, and well before I could understand verbal explanations. . . I don't think anyone in our family screamed or threw a tantrum after about age 1. It just wasn't done, and such behaviour was never modelled to us by adults. My great nieces and nephews are the same in this modern age They don't scream, act out, or throw tantrums, because they neve learned to do so .

This last paragraph is why you do not find it okay to express your natural emotions. You were taught to handle them by repressing them. This is not typical of men your age. I came out of a similar upbringing and my mother taught me dysfunctional harmful ways of dealing with my natural emotions too, repression, denIal. In all fairness, to her she taught some good things too. My mother never was able to open up and trust anyone fully her whole life. I was removed from that environment at 7, in the infinite wisdom of my grandmother she put me into therapy she said for my sake and my future children; it was the greatest gift besides taking me in and showing me love for the first time, I learned it was normal and natural to have emotions, my mother simply in her ignorance taught me in error. My mother was also opposed to any kind of help too. After she died I was astonished at how ignorant her parenting philosophy actually was. The ideas she held about kids were so wrong they were harmful. I am currently helping my sister get the help I did long ago, my dad and I are paying for her therapy. She is little by little doing better.

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy

There are situations where having a parent of both sexes Hurts a child somehow? Can you provide a link, or say... four examples?

You seem to indicate that societal variability would be a better thing over being socially, morally, and mentally healthy. Should a single person suffer the loss of a parental male input to allow for more diversity?

Die Checker, physical health ends up being the most important of the healthy states you speak of. If you have your health chances are you will have the rest by default. I stand with Frank, I think he speaks from a place of profound wisdom, for me. I would pass on the praying for a cure, but I'd appreciate the sentiment.

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy

I do not think I ever said that anger itself is healthy. Working through it after acknowledging it, is! What is healthy is that you know you feel it, instead of thinking you can choose to not feel it, when in truth you actually do. It's a mistake to think I'm saying something when I'm not.

Yes, but I have observed more of the first ones more than you probably have realized. I firmly believe that those responsible for Columbine, the Colorado theater, and Sandy Hook( this hits close to home) didn't show anger, but a more methodical way of doing it.

Guess what?!?!?! The reason why I know deep in my heart you are soooooooooooooo very wrong, is I thought I could do that in my younger years. Along with what I have noticed with my accident, I thought I too can choose my feelings. I went through choosing to love a friend, when I didn't love him that way. I choose not to feel anger at various individuals, thinking I'm getting along with them. I chose to feel something different than what was true to me. And what was true to me, was what was bubbling deep down in my heart, because I noticed how there and instinctual they were they. So, when I was going through life thinking I chose to feel something that wasn't true, I WENT NUTS!. Nothing tragic happened, I made sure of that, but I was a mess. That was a time in my life of how so confusing and very shakily I was. After realizing I knew what I was feeling, and doing things needed to understand how to make myself happy when acknowledging my true feelings, THAT was when I found peace. It was also when those who think they can use me had a rude awakening. When they saw in my eyes how I felt about them, some either felt guilt, others made amends they should have done a long time ago. I am sooooo at peace today, because I wasn't stupid. I'm being honest with myself and being resourceful in my actions, but not my heart. That's the truth! And that is why I will always feel how so very wrong you are in the 'choosing to feel' subject. Because I know how wrong it is, because I learned the hard way.

Because it's the true feelings of being betrayed. Plus, they deserve it. What good does it do to you as a walking time bomb? Ooooh, I thought you wanted them to ignore the feelings and just stay with them. Totally surprised about that. But I do feel you are ignoring the feelings of someone who emotionally tied to that person who cheated. Oh yeah, you can choose to feel love or not! :rolleyes: Of course, you know I don't feel that can be done. :no:

That's not rational. You don't seem to understand when it comes to little ones who are still in the process of learning to communicate. There are many reasons, and a parent understanding and being there is the first. I'm not going to make my kids into robots. And since I have shown them that their feelings are real and to work through them, they are more emotionally healthy today. Some of their friends, who grew up being taught to not show, not feel these feelings, I have been told by my kids, have gone into drugs and criminal behavior. You are the last person to lecture me on how I have raised my children. Considering they turned out GREAT, I don't think I did anything wrong there. :yes:

I don't believe that for one second. No offense there, but I simply do not believe that. End of it!

What a touching post Sharon, I appreciate your candor and sharing. I hope MW finds value in it. You brought in an excellent point how kids have natural emotions and we as the parent, teach them how to apply them. In our generation some parents taught in error and caused a lot of harm. My sister is coming out of a mess right now, getting better little by little as she remembers how to be whole, how to cry, how to grief, how to be happy, how to live.

I posted a link that speaks of the positivity of anger too. http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/recognize-anger.aspx

I have to say there have been times in my life that anger felt good. When the city came out and heavily fined and closed down an illegal business that was causing the neighborhood so much grief, including robberies. It felt fantastic that my outrage pushed me to seek a solution and that I was the one dropped the dime. It was an awesome feeling, that the law worked and the problem is gone and I made lives better. I have to say when I went to the Museum of Tolerance and learned how the Jewish have used anger in such a humanitarian way to raise awareness it moved not only me, but every person in the tolerance clinic. I experienced the power of anger at its highest expression, it seeks to change the world for the better and does. Anger has been at the core of many great movements.

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Xeno-Fish

Raptor a true atheist and agnostic would want proof. Before accepting some "prophetic" claim. Otherwise it just looks like attention seeking. There have been a lot of false prophets. No one can predict the future. All we can do is make an educated guess at most.

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Likely Guy

Raptor a true atheist and agnostic would want proof. Before accepting some "prophetic" claim. Otherwise it just looks like attention seeking. There have been a lot of false prophets. No one can predict the future. All we can do is make an educated guess at most.

...or just throw crap at the wall in the hope that something sticks, ignore the rest, and then pretend that you're a prophet.

Edited by Likely Guy
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psyche101

I agree with Pa, when he settles down he will be a wonderful husband.

Not if he keeps kissing blokes at weddings!! (You're never gonna live that down PA!! LOL)

Nah, but seriously, I think there is a point. We saw the move to "metro" men in the norties, (what I call the 2,000;s, you know we had the 80's 90's, and now the 00's) I found it extraordinarily distasteful and saw men letting themselves down. Nothing cool or hip about it at all. It was a chance for gay men to express that, and I guess that is how the global Western culture whent from "What - gay ******, bash him" to a simple shrug of the shoulders. It has calmed down thank goodness, but it takes away from what a man is, and others view a man with strong emotions as weak. It might be OK in some personal situations, but to me, not something I would encourage my son to embrace. PA is an understanding person, and a great fellow I agree, but a softer attitude and feminine emotions don't bring home a paycheck, or keep unwanted intruders at bay (like daughters boyfriends!!) At the end of the day, to come onto a construction site and say one cried at a piano concert is going to get you a ribbing from the men. I would not cry at a piano recital, I could not sit all the way through it, I'd be looking for the bar. And when I see that men are so different in an everyday capacity, it strikes me that the differences must be deeper than that. There are surely "types" of men, but I don't see anything wrong with a man who is what I consider "past" emotional responses. The other pressures in life make such instances just seem a waste of time.

Which is another thing again - time, can that make the difference? I come from a high paced action world of large construction, PA comes from a church background, very different, yet so many things in common, that we see in very different ways. I would imagine there is little pressure for PA to ensure his duties are encapsulated, yet with my deadlines and design requests are dime a dozen all day long and have more than once led to me seeing the sun go down and come up again, leading to a very alert state most of the time. When I go out and enjoy myself, I hit it hard. I wonder if PA is more a social laid back person when given the chance to socialise?

I have been married twice my first husband was similar to MW, he was a bit older and he just didn't show emotion. He repressed so much, it was like being married to a brick wall.

That's another thing that I might be quite different with. I am only doing the "married" thing once. If it goes to hell in a handbasket, I'm done. I do not show emotion to a point of tears over art or music, but I am constantly torn as to make the bills meet, what builder is going to put me under pressure tomorrow or if the fridge has food in it. These pressures seem to take up all of my time, but I am the sort of husband who still manages to remember flowers at least twice a month and chocolates every week. Being methodical has it's advantages too, particularly if you are a regular chocolate person!

I can be surprising too though. When I proposed my partner was really cranky as I was late home from work - picking up the ring, getting flowers champagne, etc. I got home to an irate lady who thought I had been on it with mates at the pub i topless night, instead I pushed her playfully onto a chair and blindfolded her, she was mystified, but curiously went along with it. I then carried her out to the car, buckled her in and took her for a good half hour drive through the mountains. She was getting really worried when I suddenly stopped and left the car and asked her to stay there while I madly set up flowers strawberries & champagne and placed the ring in the roses so she would see it when she smelled them. I then ran back to the car, and led her still blindfolded to a table on on outcrop overlooking city lights all alone. Removed the blindfold, popped the champagne, had half a glass, dipped a strawberry in the Champagne for her, asked her if her flowers smelled as good as she did. She spotted the ring straight away so I got down on one knee and popped the question.

She seemed pleased with the effort. Was a good night too.

My second husband is younger (7 years) and natural, he feels things and laughs so hard he cries, he was so moved when we had our son and when my middle son was crying because his dad was in ICU near death his step dad comforted him, told him it was okay to cry. My husband being in touch with his emotions for me is sexy, demonstrates incredible confidence and security with oneself, he is my best friend and he is kind and understanding towards me, and empathetic. My Step Dad is the same way, I can go to him and talk to him about anything, I think being emotionally real and available only makes a man more of a man.

LOL, I'm a "younger man" too, but only 3 years. I get some mileage out of that though.

See, I'm good with that, as I mentioned, the loss of a loved one is hard to overcome, be that to death, travel, illness or just parting ways, it can change your life. I think I mentioned when I had to deliver my Father's eulogy, I nearly didn't make it, but I dug deep for good old Dad and made sure I finished the job and could hold my head up. And if he was looking down on me at the time, he would not have been disappointed in the tears, and I would not for my son either. They come, but I find for a man, there is a time and place, and they are few and far between. Crying just does not help. Not for me.

Hard for me to see emotions as sexy, but then I don't place value in emotion, to me it's just another thing this body does.

Just a side note, My ex husband over the last years has become religious and in tune with his emotional nature, we tease him about how much he cries now ( it's really great to see) and he has apologized to me for how emotionally dead he was, he said that his soul was sick. I'll tell you, I am happy for him and pleased because his life is rich and he shows his son that to show emotions is perfectly normal. I am not saying you are emotionally dead, or giving you advice, I am just offering another perspective.

To be completely and bluntly honest, it sounds like he felt he made a mistake and does not want to make it again. I do not think women get even an idea of what they mean to a man, which is why I won't marry again. I won't love again as completely as I have with my vows - where the marriage bit comes in. More than a bit of paper. I get that impression because it seems so much easier for a woman to break that bond, of the men I know, the majority are divorced, and few deserved that saw it coming or understood it. They could not do what was done to them, and it destroys lives and changes people fundamentally. And a lot of people turn to religion when they need some help, seeing a shrink can be expensive and in some cases a bit embarrassing. The words like "soul was sick" sound like they come from a preacher, not his inner self. I may well be wrong there, but from an outside view, that is what it seems like. And he apologise to you, because it sounds like hes still has feelings for you, and wishes they could be realised.

From a man's POV anyway.

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psyche101

There's a reason Aristotle placed Tragedy as the greatest form of a play (his cited work was Oedipus Rex, but most tragedies throughout history follow a similar pattern). Just about the last part of a tragedy is a place where the audience has come to a cathartic response to the whole situation. I find catharsis to be far more than just a mind exercise.

Isn't that more a tribute to the artist though? I saw this tattoo a while back, that actually stirred emotion in me, as I thought it was a powerful art piece that makes one think, and it tells a thousand stories too. I felt it was a great tribute to the artist to create such a strong piece. Is that the sort of thing you see in music and art through catharsis?

Google has come through for me again, here it is.

56cf1463aa5ba7e9078956996d9f384a.jpg

Depends on the situation. Crying in a sad moving isn't necessarily something that feels "good", but crying at the sheer beauty of a piece of classical music (mood plays a part here, so a live performance is always more riveting than a recorded one) is just a feeling of awe and inspiration. Either way, at the end of it all, when it's all over, there is a feeling of peace and fulfilment (perhaps even contentment, if one could put it that way) in which I feel eminently satisfied with how things are.

Thanks for that - awe and inspiration hit home there and make it clearer, great common ground you chose there. I have felt inspiration fill my own mind when seeing Jimmy Page play live. I would nat have cried, but I would have felt deeply inspired, which I can see being released as emotion.

Lol, drag racing :P To answer your question, I have sat in a car with a person who was driving a V8, but I have never personally driven one. I would like to drive one one day, but I doubt it would spark this massive interest in me to begin getting into it big time.

:D

I beg to differ. Try it once, not down to the corner, somewhere that you can actually feel the power. Go through the gears, it is a male passion and addictive to any of us I am sure!! One just does not realise until you feel that rumble in your spine. It's quite an experience and a rush.

I've recently played a board game with a few friends called Race! Formula 90. As said, I'm not a car fan, but I really enjoyed playing this game. One of my mates who played is an absolute fanatic when it comes to F1 racing, and he says that this game really captures the spirit of F1 racing to the point that it's not so much as a "game" than it is a "simulator". Since then I've thought about getting into F1 just to see what the fuss is about. I watched the first match in Melbourne, wasn't impressed but according to the internet and my friend it was the most boring race in years. The next one was apparently one of the best in at least the last twelve months but I was at my aunty's farm. I think I also missed the next one for reasons unknown. So I'm still waiting to watch a full F1 racing match to see if I can get into it. I could get into it much easier than many other forms of racing, I think.

I hope it works out for you, more the drag scene for me, and I love the V8's, been watching Bathurst since I was 11. F1 is not the same for me because the Drags and V8's seem so personal. Many local competitors. I don't mind it, but if you ever try visiting drag racing ONLY go on a night when top fuellers and Funny Cars are on the track. You can feel the ground shake mate, they are amazing. Breathtaking watching, but one of those "you have to be there" things.

Get in the pits if you can :D Good time of year, season is just kicking off. Can't wait for the Winternats :D

FYI, even though I don't like cars, as an Aussie I have to pick a side - so I am (and always have been) a Holden man, because.. well, you know. Ford sucks :devil:

Just Holden together??

LOL, I hate to say it because my mate is a Holden man, but I like the last few Commodores. I have always been a Ford man through and through - Dick Johnson is a Queenslander after all!! :D And still a legend. Brockie was great on the track, but I worked at his house once, seemed to be a prick of a bloke to be frank.

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DieChecker

I would pass on the praying for a cure, but I'd appreciate the sentiment.

Even though it costs you nothing?

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