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Pointlessness of Religion


XenoFish

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In certain aspects that can be a plus, Leo. But, I don't feel the need to explain to anyone why I am an atheist. I have nothing against any religion, it's just not for me and never has been. Simple as that.

I don't have a problem with people asking sincere questions at all. It's when people start "challenging" what others feel is when I have a problem. Some people don't like cats...I can accept that. I'm not going to ask them to delve into their childhood to find out the reason and there may be no traumatic reason. Some things just are...like being gay.

:P I'm sure it is no secret by now I will at times defend the underdog when I feel they are being bullied. I may not agree with someone's stance, but I will defend it as long as they harm no others.

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Well, that's probably the difference between real-life and the virtual world on the internet. Those people you know irl are 'real' people, and you probably can't just put them on 'ignore' if you have a barney with them. Here the people aren't 'real' and it is possible to 'switch them off' in a manner of speaking.

That's part of what makes the internet a valuable social tool - it breaks through the boundaries we set in our 'real lives' and leaves us freer to explore those aspects of the human condition that we are perhaps uncomfortable exploring in the 'outside world'. It's quite possible this is having an effect in the non-virtual world also - as people become more accustomed to the 'freedom' of their internet anonymity their real-world personality changes. Perhaps part of the rise in secularity and the decline of the influence religion is having in countries/regions with a good communications infrastructure is down to this 'breaking down of social restrictions' bleeding through into the real-world.

Personally I see nothing wrong with asking tough questions and pushing people outside their comfort zones. Not all people react well to that, and I expect many aren't particularly encouraged to start thinking outside the 'box' they have packed themselves into, but enough will to make the effort worthwhile.

Bravo Leo, I think you bring in an excellent point that these forums can provide a way to get comfortable with finding ways to come together when paths are so different. I think a common position is to avoid talking about certain hot button topics, unless you agree. I must say being in these online situations has pushed me to deeply explore my position and most importantly understand others more deeply, in real life I have such natural open friendships that include political affiliations and religion. Personally, for me, the greatest relationship repair has come from within my own family, where at once we were polarized and begrudgingly polite because of my lack of religion. That is a thing of the past now, all the debates I have been in, all the information, all the different perspectives, those I related too and especially, those I didn't and the intense education that I have gleaned/ gained from UM and other avenues went along way in repairing, and knowing how from immersing myself into what makes myself and others tick. This type of inquiry got me to a functional place with my mom prior to her death(I think we would of continued growing had she of lived). Now, where once my step dad would of been the last person I would talk to, he has now become a dear friend, and support system that has helped me through the healing process after losing my mom. We talk about my Dad's religion deeply, and my lack of, as two people who are genuinely interested in each other. I want my friendships to include who the person is especially their religion. you are spot on, for some these types of explorations are interesting, exciting, productive, and life changing. I think the Internet has contributed a lot to my growth in this area. But, I was wanting to grow in this area; to push myself. I can respect and understand that this would not be or suit everyone. Thanks for taking the time to point out the positives!

Edited by Sherapy
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No, I hadn't seen that yet. I'll give it a look. :tu:

Heather Barwick is the name you are looking for.

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You are revealing a cultural bias. When the man abuses the wife is a good enough example.

I remember a fiction story where someone magically got a wish and wished for world harmony. The resulting picture was not pretty.

But you implied that having one parent can be better than having two because one may be violent. That isn't really the problem. One (single)parent can be violent. Gay couples can be violent. It is not marriage or commitment between two people which is the problem but the violence, or other issues such as drug taking, or alcohol abuse, of individuals Variety is actually NOT a good thing, if it allows for, or encompasses, more opportunity for evil/harm.

In other words, a world of married heterosexual couples with three children, where one works and one looks after the kids would be wonderful, if all those families were loving, harmonious, non violent, well adjusted etc. We can wish for what we like, but statistics show that children are better off in general, and by specific social heath, education, developmental, and other indicators where they have two parents. Single parent families are significantly worse off for children in many measurable indicators often, but not for all things, stemming from economic loss/disadvantage compared with two parent families. .

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Do you have kids Mr.Walker? One or two. I've got three. What a child needs in a positive role model. Doesn't matter if it's one parent, two parents, or gay parent/s. I've been a surrogate father figure to several children. It's a nice feeling when one of them see you after a few years and gives you a big hug and says thank you. My oldest is not biologically mine. Her "father" left her mother after he found out she was pregnant. I was her friend and help her along. I remember very few occasions where her father saw her. Then one day she calls me "daddy." with a big smile on her face. I cried. I just smiled back and gave her a hug and I've been her daddy for 17 years and counting. I've done my best to be a positive male role model. It's the people not how many parents there are.

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I do not think I ever said that anger itself is healthy. Working through it after acknowledging it, is! What is healthy is that you know you feel it, instead of thinking you can choose to not feel it, when in truth you actually do. It's a mistake to think I'm saying something when I'm not.

Yes, but I have observed more of the first ones more than you probably have realized. I firmly believe that those responsible for Columbine, the Colorado theater, and Sandy Hook( this hits close to home) didn't show anger, but a more methodical way of doing it.

Guess what?!?!?! The reason why I know deep in my heart you are soooooooooooooo very wrong, is I thought I could do that in my younger years. Along with what I have noticed with my accident, I thought I too can choose my feelings. I went through choosing to love a friend, when I didn't love him that way. I choose not to feel anger at various individuals, thinking I'm getting along with them. I chose to feel something different than what was true to me. And what was true to me, was what was bubbling deep down in my heart, because I noticed how there and instinctual they were they. So, when I was going through life thinking I chose to feel something that wasn't true, I WENT NUTS!. Nothing tragic happened, I made sure of that, but I was a mess. That was a time in my life of how so confusing and very shakily I was. After realizing I knew what I was feeling, and doing things needed to understand how to make myself happy when acknowledging my true feelings, THAT was when I found peace. It was also when those who think they can use me had a rude awakening. When they saw in my eyes how I felt about them, some either felt guilt, others made amends they should have done a long time ago. I am sooooo at peace today, because I wasn't stupid. I'm being honest with myself and being resourceful in my actions, but not my heart. That's the truth! And that is why I will always feel how so very wrong you are in the 'choosing to feel' subject. Because I know how wrong it is, because I learned the hard way.

Because it's the true feelings of being betrayed. Plus, they deserve it. What good does it do to you as a walking time bomb? Ooooh, I thought you wanted them to ignore the feelings and just stay with them. Totally surprised about that. But I do feel you are ignoring the feelings of someone who emotionally tied to that person who cheated. Oh yeah, you can choose to feel love or not! :rolleyes: Of course, you know I don't feel that can be done. :no:

That's not rational. You don't seem to understand when it comes to little ones who are still in the process of learning to communicate. There are many reasons, and a parent understanding and being there is the first. I'm not going to make my kids into robots. And since I have shown them that their feelings are real and to work through them, they are more emotionally healthy today. Some of their friends, who grew up being taught to not show, not feel these feelings, I have been told by my kids, have gone into drugs and criminal behavior. You are the last person to lecture me on how I have raised my children. Considering they turned out GREAT, I don't think I did anything wrong there. :yes:

I don't believe that for one second. No offense there, but I simply do not believe that. End of it!

Different strokes for different folks My point is that how I was raised and how i taught myself to be. If i can do this so can everyone

I am sorry you do not believe me about raising children. It is true. It is how we were taught and the behaviour we were modelled etc. As i said, my parents never raised their voices to us or got angry, although they consistently reprogrammed our behaviour through rewards and punishments. I taught teenagers for 40 years and never once lost my temper, although sometimes i pretended to, for effect. So it is possible for humans to learn and model calm and control under any circumstance.

Is it more physically and emotionally healthy to be an angry person, or one who is never angry? And which individual is a better neighbour, parent, citizen, etc?

I am not suggesting someone PRETEND to be some thing they are not, but to actually become it completely. You won't go into drugs or alcohol if you are in control of your self and your life. But if you are pretending ( to make someone else happy )then yes you might.

Edited by Mr Walker
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I don't doubt that there are some people who will react badly to failed prayers, but wouldn't these people react badly to most everything if it failed?

Not always, sometimes people can get down, a change in one's life can upturn everything, if one adheres to a religious ideal, and thinks God cares, he is going to be let down. That can easily lead to greater depression and possibly suicide. After all, if one believes an afterlife is a given, they have little to lose.

I would say that in addition to possible prayer, someone who is sick should ALWAYS seem medical attention. Always! The people who let their kids die because they get a minor infection and will not go see a doctor are monsters. :cry:

Could not agree more.

But religion does make people refuse Western medicine, and kids die every year as a result.

I've just never seen any reason to not try it. Like taking shark cartilage pills to fight cancer. There's no proof it works at all. But for twenty dollars a bottle, you can take them and hope that they do something positive. :tu:

LOL, yep, well put!

I am the type of person who would not go with hope there, because people do, others who rip off the hopeful exist.

I'm not sure what "ask the universe" means? :unsure2:

I hear it way too often, you just look up to the sky and close your eyes tight and wish for something. Not so much praying, as you can ask the Universe for anything.

Have a look at this mate - LINK

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I actually don't think that is what he means. The thing is, I think what you are saying is what the rest of us is saying. Migating emotions and put them in order, isn't that the same thing of acknowledging them and working through them? :yes: I think you are also saying there are there and we work through them. If I am getting you correctly.

Hi Gorgeous :D

I find Mr Walker he tends to ramble a bit and makes some wild statements so I did not follow too many posts.

Sort of what I am saying I think, sometimes stare an emotion down, and sometimes negate any attention that is paid, to it, so I guess that working through them is much the same, but in some cases I think they can be put aside forever. Some emotions I used to have that I did embrace, I now view through squinted eyes, they change dramatically as ones life wears on too I feel, which seems to indicate there may be some control over them.

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Do you have kids Mr.Walker? One or two. I've got three. What a child needs in a positive role model. Doesn't matter if it's one parent, two parents, or gay parent/s. I've been a surrogate father figure to several children. It's a nice feeling when one of them see you after a few years and gives you a big hug and says thank you. My oldest is not biologically mine. Her "father" left her mother after he found out she was pregnant. I was her friend and help her along. I remember very few occasions where her father saw her. Then one day she calls me "daddy." with a big smile on her face. I cried. I just smiled back and gave her a hug and I've been her daddy for 17 years and counting. I've done my best to be a positive male role model. It's the people not how many parents there are.

I've raised a dozen children from infancy to adulthood and then as a "grandparent" None biological children but all loved as if they were, and I recognise what you are talking about. It certainly Is the people, BUT if there is no male role model (or female), then a child suffers in many developmental indicators.. Modern science and psychology confirms that children need male and female figures loving/parenting them from infancy, in order to develop the combined characteristics, skills, and nuances, which come from males and females. This is particularly true in communication skills, and relationships with the different sexes.

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I see your point; I equate praying to "it doesn't hurt to think positive." I think if it works for you to do this by the act of praying great and I can see the value for you; I am glad you shared this with me. I do this, I have created a habit of looking towards the bright side of life as a mindset. With that being said, I see no reason to impose my way onto you, especially that you now know I have an equivalent. This is the aspect of the comversation that is perplexing to me, once I share my preference, other then "this is interesting, or cool story bro," what is there to discuss or argue about? I am just asking, seeking clarity.

I know many people who use the term, "I'm sending my positive thoughts (or positive energy) to you." Which is just basically prayer that is supposedly energy from the individual using that term, rather then specifically asking for something from God. That's how I see it anyway. Looking at the positive side I think is not necessarily a religious thing, but is more of a philosophy, which anyone can practice. And I strongly think people should try to live in this way.

I wouldn't seek to argue. I didn't argue with Frank, I simply asked if he'd like me to pray for him, and he said no thank you. And I chose to respect that. :tu:

I would agree that one should not push one's religion or even morality onto others. But, I don't think just asking if you can pray for someone is pushing religion. Am I wrong about that?

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Not always, sometimes people can get down, a change in one's life can upturn everything, if one adheres to a religious ideal, and thinks God cares, he is going to be let down. That can easily lead to greater depression and possibly suicide. After all, if one believes an afterlife is a given, they have little to lose.

People can also get hit by lightning, or a meteor, or catch ebola off an airplane napkin, but those things, like your example that someone could get suicidal from a failed prayer, doesn't happen very often, AFAIK.

Could not agree more.

But religion does make people refuse Western medicine, and kids die every year as a result.

I've never seen where Jesus, Abraham, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna or Joe Smith said to abandon medical assistance. The people who do so are victims of personal belief and teachings of specific individuals and cultish branches of major religions.

So, I'd have to agree that some religions do force their members to avoid medical treatment, but those are way below 1% of religious followers. Perhaps 1/100th of one percent of religious followers. :tu:

LOL, yep, well put!

I am the type of person who would not go with hope there, because people do, others who rip off the hopeful exist.

But, what if you were already in a hopeless situation. Say you were on an airplane over the Pacific Ocean and a bomb just blew the tail off the plane. Would prayer be acceptable then? You're 100% going to die, so you can't loose hope any more then you already have by that point.

Or if you are told you have cancer and it has spread and you have about two weeks to live. Would not prayer, or any possibility, be welcomed at that point?

I hear it way too often, you just look up to the sky and close your eyes tight and wish for something. Not so much praying, as you can ask the Universe for anything.

Have a look at this mate - LINK

From quoted link:

Keep in mind that you will ALWAYS receive a response from the Universe.

That's quite a claim!!

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I know many people who use the term, "I'm sending my positive thoughts (or positive energy) to you." Which is just basically prayer that is supposedly energy from the individual using that term, rather then specifically asking for something from God. That's how I see it anyway. Looking at the positive side I think is not necessarily a religious thing, but is more of a philosophy, which anyone can practice. And I strongly think people should try to live in this way.

I wouldn't seek to argue. I didn't argue with Frank, I simply asked if he'd like me to pray for him, and he said no thank you. And I chose to respect that. :tu:

I would agree that one should not push one's religion or even morality onto others. But, I don't think just asking if you can pray for someone is pushing religion. Am I wrong about that?

No, I don't think offering to pray for another and asking if it is okay is wrong, not for me. I like that you are respectful. Thank you for clarifying with such candor and grace.

I understand now that you are offering a suggestion, but in the end if one opts out you will chose respect. I appreciate your perspective and am pleased we had this conversation, I am richer for it.

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Do you have kids Mr.Walker? One or two. I've got three. What a child needs in a positive role model. Doesn't matter if it's one parent, two parents, or gay parent/s. I've been a surrogate father figure to several children. It's a nice feeling when one of them see you after a few years and gives you a big hug and says thank you. My oldest is not biologically mine. Her "father" left her mother after he found out she was pregnant. I was her friend and help her along. I remember very few occasions where her father saw her. Then one day she calls me "daddy." with a big smile on her face. I cried. I just smiled back and gave her a hug and I've been her daddy for 17 years and counting. I've done my best to be a positive male role model. It's the people not how many parents there are.

Beautiful post Xenofish, it made my heart warm for you. You are correct, what ever the circumstances if we give love, it just doesn't matter the parental head count. My husband is a step parent to one of my sons, he adores him and vice versa. My best friend is the sole parent for her two sons ( dad was killed) she took on the role of two parents ( Mom and Dad) and raised two amazing sons. Life just isn't all neatly packaged, so we adapt and strategize to fill in the holes.

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People can also get hit by lightning, or a meteor, or catch ebola off an airplane napkin, but those things, like your example that someone could get suicidal from a failed prayer, doesn't happen very often, AFAIK.

But a person wont be asking lightning or ebola for help, if one has been brought up to think God cares, and then you find out he does not, that can have a great impact on a person. Some people have an immense amount of faith, and that is more common than it should be.

I've never seen where Jesus, Abraham, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna or Joe Smith said to abandon medical assistance. The people who do so are victims of personal belief and teachings of specific individuals and cultish branches of major religions.

So, I'd have to agree that some religions do force their members to avoid medical treatment, but those are way below 1% of religious followers. Perhaps 1/100th of one percent of religious followers. :tu:

Indeed, I am glad I never needed major surgery as a child as Jehovah's Witnesses did not believe in even blood transfusions. My mother would have let god fix and I would be dead had I needed a simple blood transfusion.

That too is more prevalent than most if us realise. That immense amount of faith I mentioned.

But, what if you were already in a hopeless situation. Say you were on an airplane over the Pacific Ocean and a bomb just blew the tail off the plane. Would prayer be acceptable then? You're 100% going to die, so you can't loose hope any more then you already have by that point.

Or if you are told you have cancer and it has spread and you have about two weeks to live. Would not prayer, or any possibility, be welcomed at that point?

I would not ask for prayer, I do not see myself suddenly becoming religious in the face of death, I do not welcome death, but death will hunt me down one day.

In a short time frame, I would try to accomplish the many things I have not yet done, if incapable, I would relax and let my last days be peaceful. I would not want prayer, and people thinking I am in some afterlife that does not exist, and I would be offended at a Muslim praying for me. I do not subscribe to that God and take offence to the amount of carnage that God has cost i just my lifetime. Those people would be praying for self benefit, not this infidel.

I think if you know your time is limited, make the best of it. You wont get a second chance. The last place I would be is in a church for my remaining days, I want to exit this world how I came into it. Between someones legs.

From quoted link:

That's quite a claim!!

One some believe in totally, in fact I know a few such people, and one lady in particular who is always doing it, and mentioning it. To be honest, I am surprised you had not heard of it.

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Beautiful post Xenofish, it made my heart warm for you. You are correct, what ever the circumstances if we give love, it just doesn't matter the parental head count. My husband is a step parent to one of my sons, he adores him and vice versa. My best friend is the sole parent for her two sons ( dad was killed) she took on the role of two parents ( Mom and Dad) and raised two amazing sons. Life just isn't all neatly packaged, so we adapt and strategize to fill in the holes.

I love my step daughter enough to step in front of a train for her, but I do not feel it is reciprocated. We are great friends, she can confide in me, and asks me when she needs help, I will drop of nappies of formula on tough weeks and there is no doubt a special bond. Her father is a junky woman beating dole bludging no hoper who ever held a job and taught his son to shoot up at well under 16 - I don't know exactly when, but I know it was a good couple years before that. I honestly think that blood bond is so strong that if it was the two of us hanging over a cliff on a rope, I would not make it back to the top. He would. She always has a place for her biological g\father, no matter what low life act he pulls next.

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Not if he keeps kissing blokes at weddings!! (You're never gonna live that down PA!! LOL)

Well I have nothing that needs living down. First, it was a birthday, not a wedding. But regardless of where it happened, I was simply following the culture that I was currently engaged in. There was no sexuality in any of the things I did, it was just how the folks rolled and therefore I respected the culture I was in. Not any different to if I went to the house of an Italian and everyone insisted on kissing you on both cheeks.

Which is another thing again - time, can that make the difference? I come from a high paced action world of large construction, PA comes from a church background

Are you certain you know my background? I didn't grow up a Christian, remember. Sure, religion has been a big part of my life, but most of my teens (13+) I was non-religious, only becoming a Christian as a 19 year old.

Isn't that more a tribute to the artist though? I saw this tattoo a while back, that actually stirred emotion in me, as I thought it was a powerful art piece that makes one think, and it tells a thousand stories too. I felt it was a great tribute to the artist to create such a strong piece. Is that the sort of thing you see in music and art through catharsis?

It's a tribute to human nature. The artist just played a role in bringing that humanity to the fore. And catharsis is a large part of that.

Thanks for that - awe and inspiration hit home there and make it clearer, great common ground you chose there. I have felt inspiration fill my own mind when seeing Jimmy Page play live. I would nat have cried, but I would have felt deeply inspired, which I can see being released as emotion.

Agreed. I just don't see how "crying" is not respected as one of the ways we can respond to such awe and inspiration.

I beg to differ. Try it once, not down to the corner, somewhere that you can actually feel the power. Go through the gears, it is a male passion and addictive to any of us I am sure!! One just does not realise until you feel that rumble in your spine. It's quite an experience and a rush.

Won't happen, but I respect that some people do find such adrenaline a literal "rush".
Just Holden together??

LOL, I hate to say it because my mate is a Holden man, but I like the last few Commodores. I have always been a Ford man through and through - Dick Johnson is a Queenslander after all!! :D And still a legend. Brockie was great on the track, but I worked at his house once, seemed to be a prick of a bloke to be frank.

Yeah, Dick Johnson or no, we all know Queensland sucks. It's just part of who you are, I don't blame you for it, I just accept and acknowledge the lack that you Northerners have.

*caveat - this is a joke, I'm just taking very early Origin pot-shots at QLD. Of course NSW is going to go back-to-back this year, even with your double homeground advantage (yes, Melbourne is, for some reason, going to support Queensland, despite the alleged neutral ground).

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Do you have kids Mr.Walker? One or two. I've got three. What a child needs in a positive role model. Doesn't matter if it's one parent, two parents, or gay parent/s. I've been a surrogate father figure to several children. It's a nice feeling when one of them see you after a few years and gives you a big hug and says thank you. My oldest is not biologically mine. Her "father" left her mother after he found out she was pregnant. I was her friend and help her along. I remember very few occasions where her father saw her. Then one day she calls me "daddy." with a big smile on her face. I cried. I just smiled back and gave her a hug and I've been her daddy for 17 years and counting. I've done my best to be a positive male role model. It's the people not how many parents there are.

I can understand your position. I currently have a single mom of two living in my house with my family. The 2 year old boy calls me "daddy", and I don't correct him. He needs a positive male role model in his life. He was one when he came to live with us, after his biological dad beat the living crud out of her in from of him, while she was 8 months pregnant. Yet, I know that if his biological father had been a good man, this little boy would be better off with him, then with me, because they share more between then then this boy and I do. I can role model for him, but I can't be his actual daddy. No one will be able to 100% live up to that description other then the biological dad. There is always something slightly off, and the kids may or may not know it, and the adoptive parent may or may not know it, but it is there, I've seen it again and again.

Again this is not to say kids should not be taken from abusive situations and raised by caring people, but it is clear that it DOES matter if there is one parent, two parents or gay parents. It does matter, if only to a small degree.

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But a person wont be asking lightning or ebola for help, if one has been brought up to think God cares, and then you find out he does not, that can have a great impact on a person. Some people have an immense amount of faith, and that is more common than it should be.

That might be, but we shouldn't be assuming the person has a religious background. Frank for example has no faith in God, so would he be hurt by someones prayers for him? Possibly, I admit, but the odds, I think, are very very small.

Should we bad vaccines because one person in 10,000 or 100,000 has an allergic reaction that is bad enough to require hospitalization? The "what if..."s are near infinite.

Indeed, I am glad I never needed major surgery as a child as Jehovah's Witnesses did not believe in even blood transfusions. My mother would have let god fix and I would be dead had I needed a simple blood transfusion.

That too is more prevalent than most if us realise. That immense amount of faith I mentioned.

Luckily the Jehovah's Witness is not a significant percentage of the population. And I do consider them to be a cult of Christianity, as do most all other Christian denominations. Christian Science, which ironically also relies heavily on prayer is also treated mainly as a cult.

NOTE: Jehovah's Witness is not against medical treatments, but against anything involving blood, and specifically blood transfusions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses

Christian Science is not completely against medical treatment either, but teaches that using medicine will retard the results of prayers. And as such medicine is used sparingly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science

I would not ask for prayer, I do not see myself suddenly becoming religious in the face of death, I do not welcome death, but death will hunt me down one day.

In a short time frame, I would try to accomplish the many things I have not yet done, if incapable, I would relax and let my last days be peaceful. I would not want prayer, and people thinking I am in some afterlife that does not exist, and I would be offended at a Muslim praying for me. I do not subscribe to that God and take offence to the amount of carnage that God has cost i just my lifetime. Those people would be praying for self benefit, not this infidel.

I think if you know your time is limited, make the best of it. You wont get a second chance. The last place I would be is in a church for my remaining days, I want to exit this world how I came into it. Between someones legs.

One some believe in totally, in fact I know a few such people, and one lady in particular who is always doing it, and mentioning it. To be honest, I am surprised you had not heard of it.

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In certain aspects that can be a plus, Leo. But, I don't feel the need to explain to anyone why I am an atheist. I have nothing against any religion, it's just not for me and never has been. Simple as that.

I don't have a problem with people asking sincere questions at all. It's when people start "challenging" what others feel is when I have a problem. Some people don't like cats...I can accept that. I'm not going to ask them to delve into their childhood to find out the reason and there may be no traumatic reason. Some things just are...like being gay.

:P I'm sure it is no secret by now I will at times defend the underdog when I feel they are being bullied. I may not agree with someone's stance, but I will defend it as long as they harm no others.

I completely understand what you mean, Michelle, but is asking how a person reconciles being gay with being Christian necessarily such a deeply personal question? It might even help that person if there is still some internal conflict between those two, apparently irreconcilable, situations.

And if we aren't "challenged", by others or by ourselves, then how should we expect to grow as people?

Edited by Leonardo
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The ex and I have been split for 20 years, I consider him a friend and vice versa, he is living the life he wants and so am I. For us, divorce was a gift, we now get along and respect each other something we never accomplished married. What I learned from the mistakes in my failed marriage have gone a long way in giving me the tools and understanding to create a partnership that is filled with love and happiness. My husband is like you he thinks marriage should be once and I think that is a great attitude because it tends to make those in the commitment try harder to work things out. Yet, there just are times when the differences and compatibility are just not there and it would cause more harm then good to try and live with it.

This reminds me of someone who was part of my ballet class, when my mother and I picked her up one day, and we were talking about her neighborhood and was talking about two sets of marriages there. She said something about one couple heard lots of times arguing all the time and their neighbors who seemed to have a conflict free happy all the time marriage. Yet, the marriage that broke up was the seemingly conflict free marriage. I learned that those who argued were the ones who communicated their issues with each other, while the other marriage allowed their issues to fester and until it was too late to deal with it.

Exactly, there are times anger just feels great, in the examples I gave and the ones you did does a great job of showing how anger used constructively results in conflict resolution and often preventative measures. I took my youngest (as part of a school recommended field trip) to the Museum of Tolerance there are only 3 of them in the world. http://www.museumoft...k.BEE4/Home.htm

I came in with a somewhat decent grasp of tolerance, and left with a comprehensive, life changing, what it really means to be human, the good, the bad and the ugly, but most of all I learned about the passion of anger and used constructively it changes things for the better, and the idea is not that we repress our anger, or leave it to grow resentful and hostile, which only hastens it to become aggressive and harmful, but that we can use it constructively, harmlessly, altruistically. I learned that day that anger used at its highest level is altruistic in application. Of course one can repress and deny they have emotions or anger as MW has posted again and again, it is on us as posters to apply critical thinking skills to what we read, discern the credible from the credulous. All he is telling me is he was taught to repress his emotions, this is what he does, and lots of people use a coping style of only acknowledging the good they think that being spiritually in tune or godly means life must be presented as only rainbows and butterfly's, and while this is great as long as life works, and is fantastic at times, what happens when it isn't these people have high stress levels and have a hard time functioning. This was my mom's coping style, she was miserable most of the time, emotionless, she had two mental collapses that required hospitalization, she refused therapy because she just knew better, her relationships lacked in intimacy, most were ridden in conflict, she was always in dramas that generated conflict, everyone was always out to get her, and she could never talk about anything. I personally think that the constantly being involved in drama and arguments was how she vented the repressed anger. For me, life has stress, (good and bad) and terribly hard times, and things happen that bother me, and I have angry moments, happy moments, and incredibly sad ones, This is reality though and I have adopted a coping style that is adaptive, flexible, realistic to the situation at hand. I communicate my feelings if upset, or angry, happy, or sad, I take responsibility for my emotions and in doing so they are constructive in application. The aspects that are viable in MW's post is it illustrates that repressing or denying our emotions points out that in doing so it can lead to aggression and maladaptive behaviors, health issues, or like my sister an inability to function.

And this is exactly the way I think, knowing stress is there but learning to handle it. I have felt that it was ok for our children to see their parent argue, (I and their dad just makes sure no insults or swears come out) and not have them hide away from it, is to show two people working through it and coming to a conclusion. Instead of the hiding away, so they have no idea that their is always going to be conflict in relationships, they see that the best conflicts are the ones that are worked through. Instead of denying their is a problem, know that it's there and having the tools to work through it properly. I think there would be a lot of stress in thinking that you should always be happy even in the most horrendous situations. I think satisfaction and peace is achievable knowing you can prepare for it and work through it when it's there. I will always have a 'if it's isn't one thing it's another' thought or see things that will be half a problem. I love the idea that I want to handle the challenge and see how I do, then tirelessly keep up an appearance. It's knowing how you handle it, not hiding from it, that is the key to life in my opinion. :yes:

All the successful people who talk about the Law of Attraction positive thinking

like tony robbins and others all read the master key.

Some call is magic. Others call it knowing how things work

and bending things to your advantage.

Believe it or not, I really haven't read the Laws of Attraction books, or The Secret, (being New Age myself) and even though I have come to realize that Tony Robbins is a big self improvement guru, I thought he was more of a non-paranormal self-improvement guru. I really haven't read him either. I could be wrong. *shrugs*

It does seem to me that a man and a woman go about raising kids differently, and kids generally need both of those viewpoints to form an understanding of the world from both male and female sides. Taking one out of the equation tends to make understanding that gender harder, and thus causes problems in just about everything in life. Or, at least that is how I see it. Opinions will vary. :yes:

Well yeah, The thing is, I always see varying differences all the time, no matter how someone was raised. And I find interesting examples, ( just remember, this is me thinking, and using this as a way of my conclusions ) but when you think of military families, and how it's usually the father going off and deployed somewhere (with chances of him not coming back, ((same with the mother too)) ) No one talks about the family being reduced to one less father there and thinking that is not optimal. Not all of these families get new step fathers. What happens to these families in varying statistics about the lack of father. ( I know, there are uncles, grandpa's, and other male influences too that step in) and sometimes I would think that would be the case in two mother families and vice versa in two father families. I know you are thinking it as a whole it's all of the time ideal, but I see more variables here. *Shrugs*. It's not you DieChecker, but sometimes when others strictly bring up points like this, I often reflect on the irony of military families.
I'd agree that adoption is an honorable thing. And many, many children are saved by it. And by Fostering also. But, I'm best friends with a guy who is 46 now, and was adopted, and he has raised 4 kids himself, and he's noticed that things he was able to do for his own biological kids was not necessarily done for him. There was love and affection, but even then there is still a slight barrier, in that the parents know that this child came from someone else. In my friends case, when his adoptive parents became grandparents, the affect was even more pronounced. The grandparents preferred their biological grandchildren over their adopted son's children. Maybe it is pheromones, or maybe we're genetically inclined to be like our biological parent and that rubs somewhat, I don't know. But, I've seen it in action.
My mother in law has four grandchildren. There are my two by her oldest son, and then there are the two by her youngest son. Here's the thing, yes, I have mind biologically by her son. My brother in law, (who couldn't have children) ended up marry someone who had two boys herself and my brother in law adopted them. My mother in law treats them lovingly like she treats my children. They are part of the family now, and I think that is what counts.
My wife's sister's husband is an adopted son also. He has recently found his biological dad, and reconnected with his biological mom, both of whom were not ever even in a relationship, and found that he has more in common with both/either of them then he has with anyone in the family that adopted him. So, I don't know, there may be some genetic element to closeness and happiness within a biologically related family. (shrug..)
What about an adopted child finding out their biological parent was a criminal? Should they feel they are one too? I'm sorry to pose that question. I just don't think that is usually what happens.
But to an atheist, statistics is data, and data is what drives their decisions. So, when talking to skeptics, statistics are always going to come up. :yes:
Oh, I'm not denying that. But for me, and I'm a weird New Ager, I just don't rely solely on them.
:tu:

;):D
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Hi Gorgeous :D

Hiya Handsome!!! :D
I find Mr Walker he tends to ramble a bit and makes some wild statements so I did not follow too many posts.

Sort of what I am saying I think, sometimes stare an emotion down, and sometimes negate any attention that is paid, to it, so I guess that working through them is much the same, but in some cases I think they can be put aside forever. Some emotions I used to have that I did embrace, I now view through squinted eyes, they change dramatically as ones life wears on too I feel, which seems to indicate there may be some control over them.

Yeah, I agree with you on most of your post here. I'm having trouble of setting some emotions aside. I just think that's dangerous too. Could you elaborate more on that. I'm curious. :yes:
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Hi Gorgeous :D

I find Mr Walker he tends to ramble a bit and makes some wild statements so I did not follow too many posts.

Sort of what I am saying I think, sometimes stare an emotion down, and sometimes negate any attention that is paid, to it, so I guess that working through them is much the same, but in some cases I think they can be put aside forever. Some emotions I used to have that I did embrace, I now view through squinted eyes, they change dramatically as ones life wears on too I feel, which seems to indicate there may be some control over them.

And the next step is to work back and learn the triggers for, and biological indicators of, those emotions Then you can prevent them from manifesting at all, by mental discipline and practice. You will eventually not feel fear or anger unless you want to . Or, more simply, you will not ever be afraid or angry, except by choice. The converse of this is that you can also create fully ( mentally and biologically) all the positive emotion which you want to feel, such as love, or joy, or empathy or compassion You construct these from scratch and enter into them consciously and deliberately using the same skills by which you eliminate the negative emotions.

We have to understand that human emotions are constructs of choice not biological imperatives. It is not "normal" to feel pain or grief when a loved on die except as a cultural norm.. That is a feeling we are taught to feel. If we were taught to be joyful when a loved one died, then we would honestly and completely feel joy.

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Exactly, there are times anger just feels great, in the examples I gave and the ones you did does a great job of showing how anger used constructively results in conflict resolution and often preventative measures. I took my youngest (as part of a school recommended field trip) to the Museum of Tolerance there are only 3 of them in the world. http://www.museumoft...k.BEE4/Home.htm

I came in with a somewhat decent grasp of tolerance, and left with a comprehensive, life changing, what it really means to be human, the good, the bad and the ugly, but most of all I learned about the passion of anger and used constructively it changes things for the better, and the idea is not that we repress our anger, or leave it to grow resentful and hostile, which only hastens it to become aggressive and harmful, but that we can use it constructively, harmlessly, altruistically. I learned that day that anger used at its highest level is altruistic in application. Of course one can repress and deny they have emotions or anger as MW has posted again and again, it is on us as posters to apply critical thinking skills to what we read, discern the credible from the credulous. All he is telling me is he was taught to repress his emotions, this is what he does, and lots of people use a coping style of only acknowledging the good they think that being spiritually in tune or godly means life must be presented as only rainbows and butterfly's, and while this is great as long as life works, and is fantastic at times, what happens when it isn't these people have high stress levels and have a hard time functioning. This was my mom's coping style, she was miserable most of the time, emotionless, she had two mental collapses that required hospitalization, she refused therapy because she just knew better, her relationships lacked in intimacy, most were ridden in conflict, she was always in dramas that generated conflict, everyone was always out to get her, and she could never talk about anything. I personally think that the constantly being involved in drama and arguments was how she vented the repressed anger. For me, life has stress, (good and bad) and terribly hard times, and things happen that bother me, and I have angry moments, happy moments, and incredibly sad ones, This is reality though and I have adopted a coping style that is adaptive, flexible, realistic to the situation at hand. I communicate my feelings if upset, or angry, happy, or sad, I take responsibility for my emotions and in doing so they are constructive in application. The aspects that are viable in MW's post is it illustrates that repressing or denying our emotions points out that in doing so it can lead to aggression and maladaptive behaviors, health issues, or like my sister an inability to function.

Of course it feels great because we are taught that it should We learn that anger brings us peronal results and benefits by getting our own way or feeing better. That doesn't make it productive or constructive. ANd you go on about repressing emotions as if they are inevitable. We KNOW that our emotional responses are learned. if we learn to feel joy when another person dies then we aren't repressing anything we are learning a different response . Again, you would not need to COPE,n if you were able to eliminate the emotions you have to cope with. You don't have to cope with stress ad high blood pressure, if you learn how to eliminate them for example. You don't have to cope with loneliness, fear, or anger, if you learn how not to experience those emotions except by choice. You seem hung up on the idea that emotions are "natural" and thus must some how be beneficial. Cancer is natural but not beneficial

^The link is too long to copy by hand, but check out "Make yourself more peaceful. Eliminate anger "

Or one of many Buddhist based articles such as

"Eliminating anger by changing your views"

Or, "The best anger management is anger prevention."

To find many such diverse texts, just google "eliminating anger"

Edited by Mr Walker
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And the next step is to work back and learn the triggers for, and biological indicators of, those emotions Then you can prevent them from manifesting at all, by mental discipline and practice. You will eventually not feel fear or anger unless you want to . Or, more simply, you will not ever be afraid or angry, except by choice. The converse of this is that you can also create fully ( mentally and biologically) all the positive emotion which you want to feel, such as love, or joy, or empathy or compassion You construct these from scratch and enter into them consciously and deliberately using the same skills by which you eliminate the negative emotions.

We have to understand that human emotions are constructs of choice not biological imperatives. It is not "normal" to feel pain or grief when a loved on die except as a cultural norm.. That is a feeling we are taught to feel. If we were taught to be joyful when a loved one died, then we would honestly and completely feel joy.

Sorry, that is like telling your body to lie lie lie!! ( Sorry I was communing with my inner Meghan Trainor there for that last part. ;) )

And if I want to refer back to another art form, I think we all are aware of how bottling our emotions are not good. Yeah, this is fiction, but why is it Vulcans go into Pon Farr every seven years, when they are suppose to have such a wonderful hold on their emotions? ;):P

Ok, outside of the arts here, reading about knowing the triggers, isn't it outside elements that are the triggers? Like someone p***ing you off?! The idea is know where you stand, telling them what and where you stand and then later working out that anger in a more healthy manner. I'm sorry, those who try to get you, will not stop tel they get to you. And taking it out on a dryer will not get you anywhere. I know, I tried. :wacko::blink:

My point being, is being aware of the dryer p***ing you off, and turning it on anyways and then go somewhere else where you fantasize about dryer heaven. That'll teach that stupid dryer!!!! :D:devil:

Ok, my point is probably not going to to you, but I don't care. *goes to float on a cloud*

"What drugs is she taking?!?!"

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