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XenoFish

Pointlessness of Religion

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Careful_perspective

I could never understand that myself, Joc, and woodsbooger. I'm not saying you two are wrong, far from it. There is probably a lot I could learn from both of your posts. To me, to forgive is to honestly 'allow' that individual to escape their responsibility of what they done. Not forgiving is keeping them held responsible. I often feel there is not bitterness, if I just acknowledge what was done, and work through the anger in a more innocent and safer way. I just think, or believe, that the one who needs forgiving has to work at it to achieve it. For me, forgiving is an emotion you cannot push onto one's self, you have to honestly feel it. I think there is a difference between being bitter to what someone else is done to you and lashing out to them, and telling them their mistake and moving on finding peace in others than them. I hope that makes sense. That might make me seem someone who has a really strange way of looking at it all, and yeah, that maybe, but I feel at peace with that. *shrugs*

I understand what you mean, when something happens to you, you want that pound of flesh, you want them to pay, you want them to suffer how you suffered, Yet, most of the time people never truly realize the pain they caused, and apologies, they never really make the pain go away do they? Have you ever heard that quote "Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die." It's so true. Everything wonderful we hold on to, its a beautiful dream that can be gone in a blink of an eye. Life is just too short to nurse animosity, resentment and pain. Things fall apart, things break, and people do terrible things. It happens, but when you die, do you want to be that lady who "held on to her anger, and let them know it WASN'T okay!" I know I don't!

Anyway, I find it hard to believe you could be like this, you seem so sweet, i've never even seen you say anything rude on here once!

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joc

I wonder though, and this is just me. Do you feel at peace as an Atheist? Because I feel, what ever the outcome of what one deeply, personally believes, or finds to not believe, I feel ends up at peace. I wish you were at peace, and I think you made mention of being there at some point, I might be wrong. *shrugs*. I know, that all the 'talk' if you will of the Christian religion around the time I was growing up, certainly did not make sense, and growing up in a secular home certainly made that easy to see that. One would think becoming an Atheist was elementary. I was for a couple of years in my young adulthood. The thing was, I wasn't at peace, something in me looked inside my spirit for something else. The thing is, it came to me. But.............. that was me. I wonder if you are an Atheist. You could be wanting to explore other belief systems. Although, I have noticed Agnostics on here, who seemed at peace as well. I just wonder, if you should explore other belief systems, while looking into yourself to understand what you believe and what beliefs actually answers your inner questions. You know what I mean? :)

It's not pointless if it feels right. If that also makes sense. I have always felt my belief has answered my questions on things like this. But that is me. :yes:

Well, this is the point of that, if I understand this. If this means, that Atheism, or Agnosticism is not pointless to you, than there you go. :D

:blush::wub: Aw, shucks, PA, I know. thanks....................

And yes, I find such wisdom in yours, Woodsbooger's, and Sheri's post so many times. It makes me think.

I could never understand that myself, Joc, and woodsbooger. I'm not saying you two are wrong, far from it. There is probably a lot I could learn from both of your posts. To me, to forgive is to honestly 'allow' that individual to escape their responsibility of what they done. Not forgiving is keeping them held responsible. I often feel there is not bitterness, if I just acknowledge what was done, and work through the anger in a more innocent and safer way. I just think, or believe, that the one who needs forgiving has to work at it to achieve it. For me, forgiving is an emotion you cannot push onto one's self, you have to honestly feel it. I think there is a difference between being bitter to what someone else is done to you and lashing out to them, and telling them their mistake and moving on finding peace in others than them. I hope that makes sense. That might make me seem someone who has a really strange way of looking at it all, and yeah, that maybe, but I feel at peace with that. *shrugs*

I will tell you how I arrived at that understanding. It originated with something Jesus said...If you forgive those who have sinned against you...God will forgive you...and if you don't...He won't.

We own a house that we rent out. We had this woman that was living there with her girlfriend. She was always late with the rent and then just stopped paying. Her girlfriend moved out and yada yada yada. We had to evict her. It was hard to do, and expensive because she totally trashed the house...holes in the walls, all that good stuff. I was so p***ed at her. She bought a big swimming pool...above ground...that cost over $500 for a 4th of July bash with her 'friends'....but just couldn't come up with the rent check...to make a long story short...I was p***ed.

But then later I forgave her. She didn't ask me to...I forgave her because I wanted to. And it was so freeing. I tried to call her to tell her that it was okay, shed didn't owe us anything, and wish her good luck in life...but her number was disconnected.

So, I found myself in a position where, I had just forgiven someone...who didn't ask for it...didn't even know that I had forgiven her and to this day probably thinks I hate her guts. Is she any less forgiven for not asking? Any less forgiven for not knowing? No. It had absolutely nothing to do with her...it was all about me at that point. If you think about the Prayer Jesus offered to the Disciples....Forgive us of our sins...as we forgive those who have sinned against us....

It just makes since to me that Forgiveness is about the forgiver. shrugs :)

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Tiggs

Well, I am still waiting for you folks here to tell readers what is your concept of religion, and also of God.

You see, if you are of the idea that religion is pointless and God does not exist, then it is to your more precise understanding of your heart and mind on religion and on God to come up, with your in essence concept of religion and of God.

Please think about religion and see whether you can come up with a concept of religion that is common to all religions; there is one of course, otherwise how can people talk about religion being pointless or not being pointless, unless they all have a common minimum concept of what is religion.

That goes also for God.

I see a monotheistic God as being the creator of all things which is not God.

Polytheistic Gods, I see as being personified aspects of Nature and the human condition.

Religion - that I probably can't help you with. It's generally too diverse for me to sum up in a couple of sentences.

The best I can scrape together would be a belief in something greater than the sum of the observable universe's parts.

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StarMountainKid

I must admit, all this stuff, belief, religion, faith, spirituality, atheism, agnoticism...all these concepts seem empty talk to me, because all this only exists psychologically and emotionally in the mind, self-invented or placed in the mind by others.

I understand that these concepts can be a help for some in their lives, but I also consider it possible to live a moral and rational life without becoming attatched to all these extra trappings and paraphenalia. It's like putting pretty colored lights on a pine tree, considering the tree not good enough in itself.

For me personally, the unadorned tree is sufficient for itself and sufficient for me. It's just the way I've always thought about the subject.

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Sherapy

I will tell you how I arrived at that understanding. It originated with something Jesus said...If you forgive those who have sinned against you...God will forgive you...and if you don't...He won't.

We own a house that we rent out. We had this woman that was living there with her girlfriend. She was always late with the rent and then just stopped paying. Her girlfriend moved out and yada yada yada. We had to evict her. It was hard to do, and expensive because she totally trashed the house...holes in the walls, all that good stuff. I was so p***ed at her. She bought a big swimming pool...above ground...that cost over $500 for a 4th of July bash with her 'friends'....but just couldn't come up with the rent check...to make a long story short...I was p***ed.

But then later I forgave her. She didn't ask me to...I forgave her because I wanted to. And it was so freeing. I tried to call her to tell her that it was okay, shed didn't owe us anything, and wish her good luck in life...but her number was disconnected.

So, I found myself in a position where, I had just forgiven someone...who didn't ask for it...didn't even know that I had forgiven her and to this day probably thinks I hate her guts. Is she any less forgiven for not asking? Any less forgiven for not knowing? No. It had absolutely nothing to do with her...it was all about me at that point. If you think about the Prayer Jesus offered to the Disciples....Forgive us of our sins...as we forgive those who have sinned against us....

It just makes since to me that Forgiveness is about the forgiver. shrugs :)

Joc and Woodsbooger, while I have experienced the healing nature of forgiveness; I can relate to Sharon too there are just some situations in life that are beyond forgiveness, the kind of choices made that alter relationships and create no do overs. Yet, this doesn't mean you don't move on or set it aside and go your own way. You can still move forward and not forgive. My husband had a situation with his family after his mother died where two of the siblings left out my husband and his brother in an inheritance. It ended his relationship with his family for good. In truth, I not only understand his choice, but I think it is best for him to let them go. He has worked through the anger and moved on, but he will never talk to them again. We even discuss how greed can bring out the worst in people, we get that, but a choice was made we look at it as a done deal. There are exceptions even with forgiveness, it depends on the situation.

Edited by Sherapy
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GoldenWolf

I will tell you how I arrived at that understanding. It originated with something Jesus said...If you forgive those who have sinned against you...God will forgive you...and if you don't...He won't.

We own a house that we rent out. We had this woman that was living there with her girlfriend. She was always late with the rent and then just stopped paying. Her girlfriend moved out and yada yada yada. We had to evict her. It was hard to do, and expensive because she totally trashed the house...holes in the walls, all that good stuff. I was so p***ed at her. She bought a big swimming pool...above ground...that cost over $500 for a 4th of July bash with her 'friends'....but just couldn't come up with the rent check...to make a long story short...I was p***ed.

But then later I forgave her. She didn't ask me to...I forgave her because I wanted to. And it was so freeing. I tried to call her to tell her that it was okay, shed didn't owe us anything, and wish her good luck in life...but her number was disconnected.

So, I found myself in a position where, I had just forgiven someone...who didn't ask for it...didn't even know that I had forgiven her and to this day probably thinks I hate her guts. Is she any less forgiven for not asking? Any less forgiven for not knowing? No. It had absolutely nothing to do with her...it was all about me at that point. If you think about the Prayer Jesus offered to the Disciples....Forgive us of our sins...as we forgive those who have sinned against us....

It just makes since to me that Forgiveness is about the forgiver. shrugs :)

Luke 23:34

New International Version

Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Insanity, craziness or madness is a spectrum of behaviors characterized by certain abnormal mental or behavioral patterns. Insanity may manifest as violations of societal norms, including a person becoming a danger to themselves or others, though not all such acts are considered insanity. In modern usage, insanity is most commonly encountered as an informal unscientific term denoting mental instability, or in the narrow legal context of the insanity defense. In the medical profession the term is now avoided in favor of diagnoses of specific mental disorders; the presence of delusions or hallucinations is broadly referred to as psychosis.[1] When discussing mental illness in general terms, "psychopathology" is considered a preferred descriptor.[2]

In English, the word "sane" derives from the Latin adjective sanus meaning "healthy". The phrase "mens sana in corpore sano" is often translated to mean a "healthy mind in a healthy body". From this perspective, insanity can be considered as poor health of the mind, not necessarily of the brain as an organ (although that can affect mental health), but rather refers to defective function of mental processes such as reasoning. Another Latin phrase related to our current concept of sanity is "compos mentis" (lit. "sound of mind"), and a euphemistic term for insanity is "non compos mentis". In law, mens rea means having had criminal intent, or a guilty mind, when the act (actus reus) was committed.

"non compos mentis", a term meaning with "no power of mind".

Edited by Mystic Crusader

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Davros of Skaro

I decided to turn my status update into a thread hoping to find other who are going through something similar. I'm currently agnostic. Which means I ride the fence of faith. Believing only if proof is given. Yet lately I find holding onto such a possibility to be meaningless. My morality is based around around the Christian moral code. Treat other as I wished to be treated, do good because I want to, etc. Yet the faith in their god(or any god) is not there. Even looked back on 22 years of occult practice I realize how empty I am. Nothing every presented itself as being legit that couldn't be explained away. No ghost, no demons, gods, or angels. Just figments of my imagination. Every prayer that was answer was just confirmation bias same with spell work. Just self induced jedi mind tricks. I feel there is no point in religion. There is no God. If there is a God it doesn't care about us as our fate is totally within our own hands. I'm seriously considering becoming an atheist.

I can understand that superstition is hard to let go of.Just follow the logical conclusion and that any hidden superbeing would be ok with that.

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Starhunter

No I don't.

Yet from my perspective I feel that "If you can't do something good, why do anything at all" rings true to me. To quit looking at the end goal. Because no one knows the truth. If I can die without a guilty conscious, knowing fully that I tried my best and did what was right. Then I'm fine with it. As for my beliefs, I feel there is something more going on. I can not define it, I can not pray to it, It can not be found in the church, temples, or mosque, nor any book. It doesn't come from the mouths of men.

Your quest is a breath of fresh air.

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Careful_perspective

Joc and Woodsbooger, while I have experienced the healing nature of forgiveness; I can relate to Sharon too there are just some situations in life that are beyond forgiveness, the kind of choices made that alter relationships and create no do overs. Yet, this doesn't mean you don't move on or set it aside and go your own way. You can still move forward and not forgive. My husband had a situation with his family after his mother died where two of the siblings left out my husband and his brother in an inheritance. It ended his relationship with his family for good. In truth, I not only understand his choice, but I think it is best for him to let them go. He has worked through the anger and moved on, but he will never talk to them again. We even discuss how greed can bring out the worst in people, we get that, but a choice was made we look at it as a done deal. There are exceptions even with forgiveness, it depends on the situation.

I completely understand what you are saying and I agree whole heartedly. I have family members on both sides whom I no longer speak with, one is for a reason VERY similar to your husbands. I think what you are suggesting is very similar to what I stated. Forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean acting like nothing happened and just having normal relationships with those who hurt you. It is okay to walk away, just as long as you don't hold on to the anger. '

My favorite line from the Bible is "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." and I think that sort of fits with our dialogue.

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White Crane Feather

I can understand that superstition is hard to let go of.Just follow the logical conclusion and that any hidden superbeing would be ok with that.

I would agree actually ;) I don't think if God exists, it is really going to fault thinking people for not following specific religions or even not Haveing faith. Some people simply cannot, but I don't think its a truelly logical conclusion that there is no God. Thats purely an opinion. Agnosticism for most people is the only truelly logical and truthful position. For others Agnostic theism. Fundamentalism and hard atheism are not logical they are emotional.

Edited by White Crane Feather

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XenoFish

Maybe the whole point is to be independent thinking beings, Not in a codependent relationship with a creator (if one exist).

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Starhunter

Your instincts are telling you that there is a place where you can get a decent meal.

The doctrines of Lucifer are common today - to play with yourself - your philosophies, your feelings, your ideas, and then get off on yourself. It's called spiritual self harm. Churches teach their congregations to do it - getting a warm and fuzzy feeling, going mental over an apparent healing, shouting and waving their hands. It's called sensationalism.

Then there is the idea of punishing yourself - guilt, penance, attending church, sitting on a hard bench listening to a pedo do his rounds, eating a biscuit that's supposed to be cannibalism.

There's the worship of science - sinking yourself into the idea that the universe is a death march, and yet somehow will recreate life on it's own - by some orchestrated accident. Myths in disguise.

What has been offered to me is this - there is a Creator, whose Son is Jesus Christ, and the Bible KJV is the authorized agent by which you can know the truth and have a personal connection.

Here is what you will get past.

Your own chaos

The lies of religions including modern Christianity set up and run by Lucifer. Surprise?

Secular influences and lies.

Here is what you may come across.

1. All people are God's creation, they belong to Him already.

2. All are loved and accepted without condemnation.

3. All their sins of the world have been paid for in completeness.

4. The line is open to heaven.

5. They have an intercessor who pleads their case as individuals.

6. They have a new life prepared for them.

7. Death does not stop a resurrection.

8. Every life is valuable and all experiences recorded in detail including all feelings.

9. Every life has a compensation plan for whatever it may suffer.

10. Consequence and freedom of choice in this life and the next will never be removed.

11. No case is hopeless.

12. No one who depends on God will be lost or unprepared for the new life.

13. Emotions cannot be trusted.

14. There is no such thing as an immortal ghost within.

15. Life is life, physical and real in heaven as on earth.

16. Eternal hell is a lie.

17. A final resurrection of the wicked, judgement and execution are real.

18. Life is the gift by which all belong to God by default.

19. Circumstances in life cannot separate this connection.

20. The first life is proof of the second eternal life.

21. Divine protection and opportunity is granted to all, regardless of persuasion.

22. All are judged according to their opportunities and decisions.

23. None are left alone to struggle with their mistakes.

24. All are drawn to God by an inner quest and thirst.

25. All are wanted by God.

26. Religions lie and eclipse the truth and have ruined the Bible by false versions.

27. God has the right to terminate the wicked.

28. God has the right to save those thought lost.

29. The law of God, the ten commandments are still in force.

30. The world disobeys them.

31. The world will end when it enforces a religious law which contravenes the 4th law.

32. Mercy has a limit.

Edited by Starhunter

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SpiritWriter

I know God is real and it is talked about in religion, but that fact is not religion. Religion is (or can be) a celebration of that fact and through its process be opened up to spiritual ways that help in personal life. Religion is not pointless at all in itself but if it is pointless for a particular person than I can understand that too. The world is made up of diverse understandings that fluctuate over time. One thing I have decided to do (for myself) is to never forget the things God has done and shown me in my life over the years and in that way no matter what direction my understanding goes I will never forget how to apply my faith. For me it is of the utmost importance. I respect others views on this but for me faith pretty much has to be a part of my world. God designed me that way and I'm not upset by it.

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joc

Joc and Woodsbooger, while I have experienced the healing nature of forgiveness; I can relate to Sharon too there are just some situations in life that are beyond forgiveness, the kind of choices made that alter relationships and create no do overs. Yet, this doesn't mean you don't move on or set it aside and go your own way. You can still move forward and not forgive. My husband had a situation with his family after his mother died where two of the siblings left out my husband and his brother in an inheritance. It ended his relationship with his family for good. In truth, I not only understand his choice, but I think it is best for him to let them go. He has worked through the anger and moved on, but he will never talk to them again. We even discuss how greed can bring out the worst in people, we get that, but a choice was made we look at it as a done deal. There are exceptions even with forgiveness, it depends on the situation.

Very true my dear. While forgiveness is all about the forgiver...non-forgiveness is also all about the forgiver. Some wrongs are just Eternally Wrong.

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SpiritWriter

Maybe the whole point is to be independent thinking beings, Not in a codependent relationship with a creator (if one exist).

The way I look at it is that we are co-creators. We are individuals in ourselves but also part of the community. God exists in all and by acknowledging that existence we are able to be more independant and true to our nature, getting closer to god as a euphemism for knowing our true self better, which includes sluffing off the shackles of being dependant on outside structures that prevent us from living our most natural (our calling/purpose). I don't view relationship with God as us being involved with "another" being but our with our utmost selves. Personification such as, father, mother, lover, friend, counselor, are different aspects of God that are the aspects that one may find themselves "needing" but that is hardly a bad thing. The Spirit of God will encourage a soul to live to thier potential and create good and healthy relationships. Codeoendancy is normally viewed as an unhealthy or contributor to bad dynamics. Sure religion can have this effect on a person, but in my opinion when that is happening things should be adjusted. Sometimes it isnt more religion we need, but more of our own passion and interests to be explored and put into action. God is very special aspect of ourselves that works on our hearts and mind, gives us pleasure a sence of mystery, provides and protects us, guides us and heals us. I think that many agnostics and atheists may experience the phenomenon believers call "God" in thier own way and do not refer to "it" as God at all. Its all good as long as no one in the room is a maniacal premeditating socio/psychopath who is interested in destroying peoples lives because they are unhappy with themselves (needing Jesus badly) we can all respect each other. That's not to say a common everyday person doesn't need Jesus.. many do but everybody has thier own story. I actually think all stories of faith are beautiful, even the ones that lead to no faith. I will not say that "no faith" will certainly not last forever but that only because I am not God and I don't kniw all things. But I do predict most people will experience faith or curiosity of some kind before the whole thing is over.

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SpiritWriter

Very true my dear. While forgiveness is all about the forgiver...non-forgiveness is also all about the forgiver. Some wrongs are just Eternally Wrong.

The position of a man's heart is eternally forgiven if he truly repents. This means being changed truly and permanently, having a whole brand new perspective on the thing and in so being repentant also having remorse over previous actions but understanding he was in a different place then and lacking awareness of his own divine spirit. This would be a true spiritual act however and between an individual and God alone, outside unforgiveness may be a result and hard thing to deal with but one man cannot come between another man and God, ever . I do hope everyone does come to this place at some point in thier existence, however long that may be and in my own personal belief I think it is possible and even likely but probably in a strange way that would be hard to describe or imagine. This can be large or small scale but in response to your notion of eternal unforgiveness i think of cases of pulpit pimping or serial killer for example...

Edited by SpiritWriter
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Mr Walker

You are, that which you believe yourself to be.

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karmakazi

I am not religious, as I view "religion" to mean something akin to "ritual", but I do not think of religion as pointless. I do think it can be dangerous in certain situations, but as with all things, it is what the individual makes of it. I've known people that had a genuine need for religion, who relied on it in their own way. If it was necessary in their destiny, then it was not pointless.

I can't even say that I find it pointless in my own life, though I'm not religious, because I find all religions fascinating, and Buddhism in particular is close in many ways to my own spirituality. I tend to be more philosophical than religious myself....not a leader, or a follower, but a thinker. To the degree that I lose sleep, sometimes.

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Grandpa Greenman

What has been offered to me is this - there is a Creator, whose Son is Jesus Christ, and the Bible KJV is the authorized agent by which you can know the truth and have a personal connection.

Offered to you by whom?

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Mr Walker

This is largely based on your perspective. You give it meaning. I can not find one. It seems that the point of a religions is solely within the believer. That is the only point to it. And I see no point in living my life based on a system of fear that drive me to do good, because I don't want to have my ethereal daddy mad at me. Or even worse be put to death because I disbelieve.

Apatheism kinda hit the nail on the head about how I feel. Thanks for bringing that into the tread. :tsu:

The point of any belief, and indeed of life itself, lies within the belief constructs of the believer, from nihilist, through atheist, to ardent religionist, and back to hedonism. Life shapes belief but, more significantly, our beliefs shape the real physical nature and form of our lives. They make us who and what we are, and decide every facet of our path through life. Not just religious beliefs, but every belief we construct does this. Believe in honour, be honourable, and your path will go one way. Do not believe in honour, do not be honourable; and your life is guaranteed to take a very different path, to a very different destination.

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XenoFish

The only things I've been able to trust is what I can do with my own two hands. Religion just left a hole in me.

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Paranoid Android

My opinion would be that most people fall into both categories. Not meaning any disrespect, but I suspect your beliefs have been shaped to some degree by the words of others within some religious authority (they having interpreted scripture and passed that interpretation on to you) and so you can't claim to be free of the influence of 'religion'.

Probably very few people have what I would call a 'truly personal' faith, built entirely from their own thoughts as to what divinity might be and mean. That there are so few is, I believe, to the detriment of a considerate, inclusive society.

Does that mean that if someone quotes Richard Dawkins then their beliefs about the world have been "influenced" by someone and therefore atheism is a religion as well as a faith?

I mean, by this same reasoning, my study of Shakespeare and Artaud and Beckett was influenced by my university lecturers, and therefore I cannot be said to be free from their influence either, and therefore my beliefs about what they wrote is in some way "religious" because they are molded by outside influences.

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Mr Walker

I am going to agree with you - there is no point to religion. But I am going to add a little explanation to that.

Many posting here seem to equate 'religion' and 'faith'. I do not.

'Faith' is the personal belief one holds regarding the existence, function and meaning of divinity. 'Religion' is when 'faith' becomes organised in a heirarchical system, with a few claiming the authority to dictate what the 'faith' of those members of that system is.

'Religion' is like a system of government but with a slight difference in that government is generally set up to oversee a community in which the members wish to find a common ground in order to co-exist peacefully and effectively. There is no such 'need' to do so with something as intangible as 'personal faith'. There is no need to find a common ground between 'faiths' so long as those with 'faith' understand it is a personal thing only.

What 'religion' has done is to de-personalise faith and, even worse, make us believe one faith has to be applied to all - whether they hold to it or not.

'Religion' is not only pointless and unnecessary, it is antagonistic to personal freedom - something many of us, even the 'faithful' among us, enjoy.

I like this but would add that; belonging to a religion appeals to many levels of human psychology and also provides benefits of social contact and ritual. Statistically it helps maintain health fitness and longevity,. However, it is like football and the tribalism of football followers. As long as you aren't forced to participate or observe, and if you want to get involved you can chose your own team and even code, then it is a positive form of codification of individual belief. But when there is nothing on the radio or television all weekend, except football, then it has gone too far.

Likewise when religion becomes the sole determinant of society, or of an individual's life, then it has gone too far.

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Careful_perspective

I like this but would add that; belonging to a religion appeals to many levels of human psychology and also provides benefits of social contact and ritual. Statistically it helps maintain health fitness and longevity,. However, it is like football and the tribalism of football followers. As long as you aren't forced to participate or observe, and if you want to get involved you can chose your own team and even code, then it is a positive form of codification of individual belief. But when there is nothing on the radio or television all weekend, except football, then it has gone too far.

Likewise when religion becomes the sole determinant of society, or of an individual's life, then it has gone too far.

So are you opposed to Nuns or Priests or any person of the Cloth?

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DieChecker

The only things I've been able to trust is what I can do with my own two hands. Religion just left a hole in me.

To quote Joey from the TV show Friends... "Are you sure you were doing it right?..."

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