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XenoFish

Pointlessness of Religion

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DieChecker

Luke 12:

51"Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division

52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.…

I think these scriptures mean that Jesus knew that his message of Peace and Love would not be adopted wholesale immediately, that first there would be division. Friend against friend and relative against relative. Which is what was seen. Many began to switch to the proto-Christianity, and this caused a lot of division in the land. Quite quickly the Jewish Authorities decided they had to get rid of Jesus. His teachings were spreading and undermining their authority.

I don't think Jesus was saying he was going to spread violence or even division. I think he was shrewd enough to realize his message would create division between the conservative authorities and the common people. It was an observation of his own effect on the population.

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XenoFish

I feel that I have a brass pair because I can willingly admit that I don't know the "truth". Nor am I willing to assume any religious belief structure knows it. If a religion is your coping mechanism of choice so be it. I'm just indifferent to it.

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Mr Walker

I don't like the idea of giving my time and energy into something that doesn't produce tangible results. I never found comfort in religion. Just conditioning. While I might believe there is more to life that meets the eye, I will not call it God and I will not worship it.

I do not believe that any human can put considerable time effort or energy into ANYTHING and not see/get results from it. Every action of mind and body has consequences which will be measurable Even inactions and lack of thought result in measurable outcomes.

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DieChecker

I feel that I have a brass pair because I can willingly admit that I don't know the "truth". Nor am I willing to assume any religious belief structure knows it. If a religion is your coping mechanism of choice so be it. I'm just indifferent to it.

There have been studies that said that humans are wired up for religion (basically). My guess is that you're one of the ones that is not. :innocent:

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Likely Guy

I do not believe that any human can put considerable time effort or energy into ANYTHING and not see/get results from it. Every action of mind and body has consequences which will be measurable Even inactions and lack of thought result in measurable outcomes.

Sure. And the outcome may be someone that doesn't care if there is a God or not.

An apatheist doesn't believe in God nor disbelieves in God's existence. To them (us) it just doesn't matter. They also won't live their lives any different, whether or not.

Frankly, we're quite tired of the debate. :D

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Stubbly_Dooright

Why do you need supernatural interventions or religion at all in order for an Ultimate Reality, a 'God' to exist?

What if all of physical reality (the "universe") exists within the Deity and is created by a "projective" evolutionary process that is on-going, self-evolving and ultimately co-creative in nature ?

Look at the complexity and order of nature. The sheer beauty of the World, the diversity of Life, the Big Bang, the expension of the Universe, the massive cycles of starbirth or stardeath necessery to generate the heavy elements which permit the existence of our World at all. There you will find a manifestation of the Creative Intelligence.

One will? How? Look, I'm not your strong Atheist either, I have my own strong faith and how I find my answers through what I see and experience and see of my environment and more. But when statements like this is made, I have to shake my head. Yeah, there is beauty in nature, or usually one sees beauty in their natural environment, but most of the time what can be seen is the natural reason for it's creation. If one is going to make a statement some intelligent created it and was sure of it, there must be evidence of it. Right?

So basically you are saying you have no balls. A religious person has balls to be able to stand up by faith, with no proof. And at least an atheist has a pair - to stand up to religion and shout "you guys are morons".

I think that's a bit harsh to say. I think that Agnostics and such have the strength and deep understanding that they don't know for sure what they believe, and don't feel the need to they have to. Why does someone have to pick 'a side'? Actually, I think it is also brave to realize that you are not sure and not lying to yourself by saying you are one or the other. We are talking about belief, an emotion or something you do not choose to feel, but something that comes to you by experience. And not coming to a conclusion based on lack of evidence or what little evidence you have, is probably more honest than 'having' to come to a conclusion and confusing yourself even more.

I do not believe that any human can put considerable time effort or energy into ANYTHING and not see/get results from it. Every action of mind and body has consequences which will be measurable Even inactions and lack of thought result in measurable outcomes.

Ah so, there is no such thing doing something in vain?
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eight bits

samus

Look at the complexity and order of nature. The sheer beauty of the World, the diversity of Life, the Big Bang, the expension of the Universe, the massive cycles of starbirth or stardeath necessery to generate the heavy elements which permit the existence of our World at all. There you will find a manifestation of the Creative Intelligence.

Funny, all that seems to me to be at most the lowest form of intelligence, "generate, test and retain," known in biology as evolution by natural selection. Some extraordinarily impressive things lack even that much "intelligence."

The flashier Mandelbrot-type sets are complex, orderly, can be beautifully presented, are diverse within their uniform organization (the "same" shape is presented with uncounted variations) - and they are completely 100% logically necessary. In other words, they are not "created" but only exist in the abstract. Appreciation of a Mandelbrot set may indicate intelligence, but its having the properties it does simply restates that some of what is cannot be otherwise than it is.

I'd be looking for some evidence of occasionally effective search space reduction before I'd call anything evidence of "intelligence." For example, I'd be impressed by a trial-generator mechanism that would never toss out flies without wings, or do so only once and realize from that expereince that solutions to the problem of survival, for flies, lie in a different direction.

OopsMonkey

Testicles are overrated as an organ of thought.

Edited by eight bits
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Stubbly_Dooright

samus

Funny, all that seems to me to be at most the lowest form of intelligence, "generate, test and retain," known in biology as evolution by natural selection. Some extraordinarily impressive things lack even that much "intelligence."

The flashier Mandelbrot-type sets are complex, orderly, can be beautifully presented, are diverse within their uniform organization (the "same" shape is presented with uncounted variations) - and they are completely 100% logically necessary. In other words, they are not "created" but only exist in the abstract. Appreciation of a Mandelbrot set may indicate intelligence, but its having the properties it does simply restates that some of what is cannot be otherwise than it is.

I'd be looking for some evidence of occasionally effective search space reduction before I'd call anything evidence of "intelligence." For example, I'd be impressed by a trial-generator mechanism that would never toss out flies without wings, or do so only once and realize from that expereince that solutions to the problem of survival, for flies, lie in a different direction.

I'm not sure, but I think you put this in better words than I did. Or did I get that wrong? *looks sheepish*
]OopsMonkey[/b]

Testicles are overrated as an organ of thought.

:unsure2::passifier::cry: ........... :w00t: :w00t: ........:rofl: :rofl:
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eight bits

Stubbly

Yes, I think you and I are in agreement there. I just found myself thinking "If I don't accept samus's evidence, then what evidence would I accept?" It would be a fair objection if somebody raised it, so I just threw an answer into the mix.

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Border Collie

OopsMonkey

Testicles are overrated as an organ of thought.

I am going to have to think about that for a while.

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Aftermath

OopsMonkey

Testicles are overrated as an organ of thought.

Obviously, let's not be ridiculous as what I wrote was a figure of speech (from a Google search: "a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage") and not to be taken literally as that person has "no balls". However, maybe it takes someone with testicles to understand this.

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XenoFish

Your response was what I typically expect to see from what I wrote. Just because I don't see the world through a religious lens doesn't me that I can't see the world. One's beliefs can be a powerful motivator, this does not mean that the kindness you might display has to be based on religious motivations. Earning brownie point from your chosen deity. I'd rather do good because I can, not because I'm fearful of divine retribution.

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Sherapy

samus

Funny, all that seems to me to be at most the lowest form of intelligence, "generate, test and retain," known in biology as evolution by natural selection. Some extraordinarily impressive things lack even that much "intelligence."

The flashier Mandelbrot-type sets are complex, orderly, can be beautifully presented, are diverse within their uniform organization (the "same" shape is presented with uncounted variations) - and they are completely 100% logically necessary. In other words, they are not "created" but only exist in the abstract. Appreciation of a Mandelbrot set may indicate intelligence, but its having the properties it does simply restates that some of what is cannot be otherwise than it is.

I'd be looking for some evidence of occasionally effective search space reduction before I'd call anything evidence of "intelligence." For example, I'd be impressed by a trial-generator mechanism that would never toss out flies without wings, or do so only once and realize from that expereince that solutions to the problem of survival, for flies, lie in a different direction.

OopsMonkey

Testicles are overrated as an organ of thought.

Incredibly well said, Paul!

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Davros of Skaro

Seen a lot of them. Not impressed by either side. Mostly atheists using Christianity as a straw man for theism in general, theists not accepting facts and atheists that are supposed to be scientists getting their science wrong but still claiming to base their atheism off of science. :no:

That's funny when you filter science to try and prove your points.

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Davros of Skaro

Well, for myself, I've seen, repeatedly, several very unlikely events at different locations and times, which all seemed to coincide on timing exactly with fervent prayer. True, these things could be random good luck. But when you see "good luck" happen over and over, just when needed and just when someone prayed for it, that starts to get harder and harder to play off as random. When multiple events happen which are perhaps one in ten thousand chance, or more, each, and just when the praying person needs it... the multiplication of the odds due to each variable would indicate that the odds are close to impossible. Yet these things do seem to happen, and repeatedly. I've seen people with months to live, who received focused community prayers have spontaneous remission, and get a fiscal windfall to pay the bill. I've seen a man cured of dyslexia over a weekend, where he was basically unable to read on Friday and reading normally on Monday.

Again, I say, it is true these things could be random chance. But the odds seem long, and some force acting to tilt probabilities begins to seem a real possibility.

Faith is often built on experience, not on being stupid.

I laugh at the many times how a close call or when things go my way would look if I prayed.I also see the excuse of "God has a much wiser path for me" when things did not go my way if I believed.

I knew a Woman that survived Cancer, received a windfall, but the Cancer came back and she died.The point is people do survive Cancer and receive windfalls of Money.

I was taking a Class once and a fellow Student came to me and was worried about the test coming up.I told him just read the Book and it will be no problem.The Student suddenly gave me a look of grief which confused me.Another Student overheard and came over.He asked if the worried had Dyslexia which the reply was "Yes".It turns out he had it too and taught him a technique that he uses.So in a couple of days the worried Student was puffed up with pride because he passed the test.Now if it was a complete reverse of Dyslexia from what I know of it, that would be a miracle.

Faith is built on gullibility and confirmation biases.

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Davros of Skaro

There have been studies that said that humans are wired up for religion (basically). My guess is that you're one of the ones that is not. :innocent:

No...Manmade Religion takes advantage of our evolution.

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DieChecker

No...Manmade Religion takes advantage of our evolution.

Yet there is evidence of religion going back to before written records. It is a part of who we are.

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DieChecker

I laugh at the many times how a close call or when things go my way would look if I prayed.I also see the excuse of "God has a much wiser path for me" when things did not go my way if I believed.

I knew a Woman that survived Cancer, received a windfall, but the Cancer came back and she died.The point is people do survive Cancer and receive windfalls of Money.

I was taking a Class once and a fellow Student came to me and was worried about the test coming up.I told him just read the Book and it will be no problem.The Student suddenly gave me a look of grief which confused me.Another Student overheard and came over.He asked if the worried had Dyslexia which the reply was "Yes".It turns out he had it too and taught him a technique that he uses.So in a couple of days the worried Student was puffed up with pride because he passed the test.Now if it was a complete reverse of Dyslexia from what I know of it, that would be a miracle.

Faith is built on gullibility and confirmation biases.

Do you know if anyone may have been praying FOR you?

Do you know that the person who survived cancer and received money was religious or not? Did she have any religious people praying for her?

Was the Dyslexic person religious or not? Did the dyslexic person have anyone praying for them or not?

My point is how do you prove that no one was praying for those people? I readily admit that random things do happen, but when the remarkable happens regularly... if the religious appear to live on the edge of what the bell curve would predict, then might there not be some unexplained variable involved?

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Davros of Skaro

Yet there is evidence of religion going back to before written records. It is a part of who we are.

Yes...We are evolved mutated crazy Apes.

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Davros of Skaro

Do you know if anyone may have been praying FOR you?

Do you know that the person who survived cancer and received money was religious or not? Did she have any religious people praying for her?

Was the Dyslexic person religious or not? Did the dyslexic person have anyone praying for them or not?

My point is how do you prove that no one was praying for those people? I readily admit that random things do happen, but when the remarkable happens regularly... if the religious appear to live on the edge of what the bell curve would predict, then might there not be some unexplained variable involved?

It's possible for all three questions, even prayers for me.

The rest is your opinion and does not reflect reality.

Just imagine those Women who were Kidnapped and held as sex slaves for many many years.I am sure they prayed, and people prayed for them.So since they were finally set free proves prayer works...Right!?...Sick!

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DieChecker

It's possible for all three questions, even prayers for me.

The rest is your opinion and does not reflect reality.

Just imagine those Women who were Kidnapped and held as sex slaves for many many years.I am sure they prayed, and people prayed for them.So since they were finally set free proves prayer works...Right!?...Sick!

Yeah, it is the real whack stupid evil criminal crap that makes even a zealot Christian go "Huh?......"

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Davros of Skaro

Yeah, it is the real whack stupid evil criminal crap that makes even a zealot Christian go "Huh?......"

Just pray for the regrowth of severed Limbs and when it works make sure to document it.

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Frank Merton

I agree: religion is pretty damn pointless, a waste of time and money, giving a few psychological rewards but only things that prove empty in the end. This of course assumes we are not talking about my religion.

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DieChecker

Just pray for the regrowth of severed Limbs and when it works make sure to document it.

I've known at least two people who've said they've actually seen that happen in Africa. One saw a hand grow back over a period of days, and one saw a foot (I think) that grew back toes that had been cut off. These asaidre generally not people who would be recognized as liars, and I would tend to believe what they said.

There are videos of people with one short leg getting prayer and their leg growing to match the other, but I think they would not impress you, since they could have been easily faked.

https://letterstocreationists.wordpress.com/2011/03/10/healings-on-youtube-legs-growing-out/

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DieChecker

I agree: religion is pretty damn pointless, a waste of time and money, giving a few psychological rewards but only things that prove empty in the end. This of course assumes we are not talking about my religion.

Yep that two hours per week of socializing and listening to reasons to be ethical should probably better be spent playing Halo, or sleeping in, or surfing for porn.

How many people... What percentage... would really take those two hours and do something meaningful with them, that they couldn't ALSO do with any other two hours out of their week?

Probably 50% to 75% of the free time that anyone, and everyone, has is used on "pointless" pursuits.

Edited by DieChecker

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