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XenoFish

Pointlessness of Religion

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White Crane Feather

That's funny when you filter science to try and prove your points.

There is no science in atheist beleifs. ;)

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Likely Guy

Religion isn't pointless, neither is atheism.

There, we're done. :)

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Likely Guy

There is no science in atheist beleifs. ;)

You either don't know any atheists and/or agnostics, or science.

Edited by Likely Guy
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Frank Merton

As pointed out above, a lot of what we all do all the time is pretty pointless, maybe in the fullness of time everything we do and the whole universe is pointless. Maybe even it's pointless to worry about whether or not something is pointless.

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Likely Guy

As pointed out above, a lot of what we all do all the time is pretty pointless, maybe in the fullness of time everything we do and the whole universe is pointless. Maybe even it's pointless to worry about whether or not something is pointless.

One fish, two fish,

Red fish, blue fish.

- Dr. Seuss

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Mr Walker

.

Ah so, there is no such thing doing something in vain?

One does not always get the results one seeks but one always gets results for effort/expenditure of energy. So it depends what you mean by "in vain" . Personally I would say no effort is ever made in vain or wasted. Even if it doesn't bring the precise results you wanted, it will develop/grow /improve you in some way, which will be useful/productive/needed, later.

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SophiaStar

It seems at least I've made my mind.

I rather trust the scientist on this matter.

It is no wonder people turn away from the religion it seem that it can't provide any answers to individuals who are interested in reality.

With all due respect if god is all wise and loving why would he make such cryptic religion revolving around himself.

Why a magnificent being like god would need such assurances.

To feel alive?

I don't understand why would somebody even need to have a life everlasting.

Doesn't that sound a bit egocentric..

Nature is the only force that has rule over man. And one thing we can be sure of is that one day we will all die.

We should make the most of what we have here know while we are alive.

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Stubbly_Dooright

Your response was what I typically expect to see from what I wrote. Just because I don't see the world through a religious lens doesn't me that I can't see the world. One's beliefs can be a powerful motivator, this does not mean that the kindness you might display has to be based on religious motivations. Earning brownie point from your chosen deity. I'd rather do good because I can, not because I'm fearful of divine retribution.

XenoFish, this is where I will be behind you on your thoughts here. Well, I have been in a sense from the beginning. ..... I think.......

well back to the point of this post. I agree with you. And yes, I have my own strong spirituality, but to me, you, me, and everyone else has a strong sense of point of view, that to just assume that someone else is oblivious of awareness of their environment because they don't have that something you have, is ...................... I'm sorry.................I feel is arrogant. That is like saying, not everyone has a consciousness within, which is I think is silly to say. It's like jumping to conclusions based on one's own little world. No one will ever jump into someone else's consciousness, (unless in a science fictional scene and even then I digress :D ) and will not know what they 100% know. :yes:

I was taking a Class once and a fellow Student came to me and was worried about the test coming up.I told him just read the Book and it will be no problem.The Student suddenly gave me a look of grief which confused me.Another Student overheard and came over.He asked if the worried had Dyslexia which the reply was "Yes".It turns out he had it too and taught him a technique that he uses.So in a couple of days the worried Student was puffed up with pride because he passed the test.Now if it was a complete reverse of Dyslexia from what I know of it, that would be a miracle.

As a person with a slight learning disability, and the experiences from them, I find this paragraph from you a more realistic way of describing helping someone like this than thinking, oh they helped them like a miracle. Really? That would have been great for me, many many many years ago. Of course, I have felt ignored, and left to my own devices, (there were some good teachers at my high school, and my family were awesome), but overall I was not helped until college, and a wonderful professor of mine. It wasn't until one of the professionals told me how over come it, and I have been using it ever since. It's called tools, I don't think they are miracles.

Do you know if anyone may have been praying FOR you?

Do you know that the person who survived cancer and received money was religious or not? Did she have any religious people praying for her?

Was the Dyslexic person religious or not? Did the dyslexic person have anyone praying for them or not?

My point is how do you prove that no one was praying for those people? I readily admit that random things do happen, but when the remarkable happens regularly... if the religious appear to live on the edge of what the bell curve would predict, then might there not be some unexplained variable involved?

Well, these are interesting questions, and I myself would give you that. I always felt one is always free to pray for others, as I have always felt I am free to have a person in my thoughts and more. This could say for me, no one really prayed for me until I reached college, and who knows someone may have prayed for me, and a professor answered these prayers. I'm not being snarky, I see and maybe believe your points. The thing is, this is still a subjective situation, and probably cannot be proven in an objective manner.

It's possible for all three questions, even prayers for me.

The rest is your opinion and does not reflect reality.

Just imagine those Women who were Kidnapped and held as sex slaves for many many years.I am sure they prayed, and people prayed for them.So since they were finally set free proves prayer works...Right!?...Sick!

That is a very good point. I'm sure the members of these women's families prayed and prayed. Yeah, it may seem the prayers are answered and the women are now set free. (I'm assuming we are talking about the Ohio women), but wouldn't the prayers be answered right away before anything horrible and scarring happened to these women?
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GoldenWolf

It seems at least I've made my mind.

I rather trust the scientist on this matter.

It is no wonder people turn away from the religion it seem that it can't provide any answers to individuals who are interested in reality.

With all due respect if god is all wise and loving why would he make such cryptic religion revolving around himself.

Why a magnificent being like god would need such assurances.

To feel alive?

I don't understand why would somebody even need to have a life everlasting.

Doesn't that sound a bit egocentric..

Nature is the only force that has rule over man. And one thing we can be sure of is that one day we will all die.

We should make the most of what we have here know while we are alive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism

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SophiaStar

Narcissism is certainly more descriptive term.

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White Crane Feather

You either don't know any atheists and/or agnostics, or science.

I know plenty and am well read in the debate, science, and rehtoric. Science as an institution has nothing to say about theism it can't possibly. It has plenty to say about religous narritives and history. These things can fall into the realm of inquiry. The existance of a God is not, So I'll stick with my early assessment it's accurate.

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Liquid Gardens

Science as an institution has nothing to say about theism it can't possibly.

Well it could 'possibly', all it takes is one god to finally show up. Even if it were true that 'science has nothing to say about theism', that fact that science has nothing to say about theism does say something.

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White Crane Feather

Well it could 'possibly', all it takes is one god to finally show up. Even if it were true that 'science has nothing to say about theism', that fact that science has nothing to say about theism does say something.

It's not even remotely that simple. That one God would have to show up and submit itself to testing. Assuming we humans are even capable of inderstanding the nature of a supreme being, it would be like surrendering to a group of toddlers ( which I have done by the way), or probably more like ants. Would you try to exsplain your self to ants LG? Would there be any point? Would it actually change the nature of the ants or would it just scatter and disturb them? Try it some day. Turn over a log and try to exsplain to them that you care about their environment. Watch their behavour and realize that this is not far from how humans behave only worse. Ants typically don't turn on each other.

No it dosnt. Scientific expression is about what we know for sure based on very thin statistical margins. Not about what is probable, likely, or even common knowledge. Ill give a few examples.

The higgs boson: Not many people know that the higgs boson was detected in other particle Excelerators long before the LHC. Not only that, the boson fits perfectly into the standard model and was needed to make it work out mathmatically. Still it was not consider a scientific fact until the LHC could confirm its existance within very tiny statistical margins. If the LHC was never built or could not be built the Higgs could never be considerd a scientific fact. This has absolutely no influence on the actual existance of the Higgs. It's always been there.

Law: There are many people in prison right now and justly so based purely on anecdotes from others. This is not infallable of course some innocents do get put away, but it's fairly rare. It's the fallibility that is unacceptable in science. If 15 people see you committ a murder and their story's mesh well, your are going to jail even if you were a genius at eliminating physical evidence. It is not a scientific fact that you are guilty, it's a common knowledge fact.

I have an organic semi permaculture cycle on my Little acre in California only using about 2,500 sq ft. I'm about 75% done with my set up. When I'm through I will have a system that keeps all organic waste in the system and turns it into food. Will be nearly 100% water efficient, self managing with pests and weeds, and will provide well over 30% of all my family of 5 food needs with high quality organic produce and eggs. Eventually one day meat aswell. In the interim I will try to trade for it. My system can solve the worlds food problems with minimal investment, minimal water, minimal space, the oposite of soil erosion, with no need for pesticides or herbicides . This is a fact but not a scientific fact. Though it certainly is testable. Even if all of it is sound and could work on a global scale, let's say I tried to change the world with it. How many holes would be poked into it by people with agendas. What would Monsanto do if I could eliminate the need for round up?

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Liquid Gardens

It's not even remotely that simple. That one God would have to show up and submit itself to testing.

So you don't think historical science counts as 'science'? Regardless it is that simple, you used the word 'possibly' which means 'possibly' a god could show up and submit to whatever requirement you need in order for it to count as science.

No it dosnt. Scientific expression is about what we know for sure based on very thin statistical margins. Not about what is probable, likely, or even common knowledge. Ill give a few examples.

Science is not about 'what we know for sure', it's always tentative. Most useful probabilities are informed by science, and even require it in certain circumstances.

I don't know what the relevance of the higgs boson, law, and your cool garden is to anything I wrote; science has lots to say on all three of those things.

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Davros of Skaro

I have an organic semi permaculture cycle on my Little acre in California only using about 2,500 sq ft. I'm about 75% done with my set up. When I'm through I will have a system that keeps all organic waste in the system and turns it into food. Will be nearly 100% water efficient, self managing with pests and weeds, and will provide well over 30% of all my family of 5 food needs with high quality organic produce and eggs. Eventually one day meat aswell. In the interim I will try to trade for it. My system can solve the worlds food problems with minimal investment, minimal water, minimal space, the oposite of soil erosion, with no need for pesticides or herbicides . This is a fact but not a scientific fact. Though it certainly is testable. Even if all of it is sound and could work on a global scale, let's say I tried to change the world with it. How many holes would be poked into it by people with agendas. What would Monsanto do if I could eliminate the need for round up?

You should post details of this in the proper forum and or do Youtube videos of your progress.Now that's better than pointless Religion.

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Davros of Skaro

I've known at least two people who've said they've actually seen that happen in Africa. One saw a hand grow back over a period of days, and one saw a foot (I think) that grew back toes that had been cut off. These asaidre generally not people who would be recognized as liars, and I would tend to believe what they said.

There are videos of people with one short leg getting prayer and their leg growing to match the other, but I think they would not impress you, since they could have been easily faked.

https://letterstocreationists.wordpress.com/2011/03/10/healings-on-youtube-legs-growing-out/

Africa is brimming over with miracles, and that's where I'm going to get a lucky Albino's Foot. o.O

Derren Brown Exposing the Fake Faith Healing Leg Trick - YouTube

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White Crane Feather

So you don't think historical science counts as 'science'? Regardless it is that simple, you used the word 'possibly' which means 'possibly' a god could show up and submit to whatever requirement you need in order for it to count as science.

Science is not about 'what we know for sure', it's always tentative. Most useful probabilities are informed by science, and even require it in certain circumstances.

I don't know what the relevance of the higgs boson, law, and your cool garden is to anything I wrote; science has lots to say on all three of those things.

Indeed if there is a god, I suppose the hypothesis is testable, if it chose to submit. But it might have to teach is how to test it, maybe help us out cognitively so we can actually get it.

Scientific truths are not tentative in the slightest. Scientific theories are. The explanation is not the truth. Gravity exists.. No doubt. What it is is a matter of theory and is tentative. Water is fluid at certain temps and preassures, solid at others, still gas at others. In no instance without I ther extending variables does this change. Ultimately at the end of the line, we end up with quantum mechanical observation. Even these things are solid scientific fact, what fuels the behaviour can only be theory and certainly is tentative. Quantum mechanics is not tentative, string theory is. String theory is a theory subject to change and revision, QM is observatiin and calculation of relationship.

Science is absolutely about what we know for sure and can exspress in statistical certainties. God ( at least the creator kind), simply cannot fall under a scientific umbrella, is not testable ( unless it submits to testing I suppose), and has no place being discussed by real scientists in scientific terms. Even santa clause is a narritive that can be investigated and the myth disected and follwed. Davaro does a half way decent job of dissecting the mythical aspects to the Jesus story, but a creator of the universe if it exists does not occuoy the same box we do nor do the tools in the tool box. The God question is completely and totally unfalsifiable and therefore beyond science. So is the fundamental reason the universe exists whatever it might be. So you see its a fact that the universe has a fundamental reason for existing it lies somwhere underneith Quantum mechanics ( or at least another layer), but it's not science either, but that dosn't stop it from being the truth. We only have to make up our minds if there is any intelligence behind it or not. My stance is that if it's not intelligent, it will one day be, evolution demonstrates this quit nicely.. And in all of eternity that one day has come an always has been here. My view of God is not science but like you suggested is built upon my knowledge of science and a heap of personal exsperiences.

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White Crane Feather

You should post details of this in the proper forum and or do Youtube videos of your progress.Now that's better than pointless Religion.

I'm not religous davros. I'll post pics and yields of my garden when it's in full swing and in rotation. Maybe eventualy an Ebook.

Edited by White Crane Feather

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Stubbly_Dooright

One does not always get the results one seeks but one always gets results for effort/expenditure of energy. So it depends what you mean by "in vain" . Personally I would say no effort is ever made in vain or wasted. Even if it doesn't bring the precise results you wanted, it will develop/grow /improve you in some way, which will be useful/productive/needed, later.

Where's your proof to make that statement something I will believe in? Until then, I find that a complete untrue statement.

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travelnjones

Doesn't it stand that there is someone who feels something has no point, for everything. You religion, someone else philosophy, someone else life. So ok what are you going to do? The general choices are hedonism or depression.

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Podo

Doesn't it stand that there is someone who feels something has no point, for everything. You religion, someone else philosophy, someone else life. So ok what are you going to do? The general choices are hedonism or depression.

I've mostly been watching this thread but I've got to comment on this. I think a person can view something as pointless without having to choose between depression or hedonism. For example, I don't think that our lives have any meaning, and that they are inherently pointless. We're just specks on a blue dot flying through space, doomed to die after short existences. However, that doesn't mean I'm depressed or a hedonist. In fact, I find it incredibly liberating, because I know I am the master of my own fate, and I am living my life for me, not anyone else. Success and happiness are what I deem it, and I'm not playing by someone or something else's rules.

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XenoFish

Similar to how podo see's life. I see religion the same way. Just because I see no point in it, that doesn't make me the embodiment of all that is evil. I can't cast my screw ups onto anyone else's shoulder but my own.

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travelnjones

I've mostly been watching this thread but I've got to comment on this. I think a person can view something as pointless without having to choose between depression or hedonism. For example, I don't think that our lives have any meaning, and that they are inherently pointless. We're just specks on a blue dot flying through space, doomed to die after short existences. However, that doesn't mean I'm depressed or a hedonist. In fact, I find it incredibly liberating, because I know I am the master of my own fate, and I am living my life for me, not anyone else. Success and happiness are what I deem it, and I'm not playing by someone or something else's rules.

At some level that is hedonism. I am not saying you are eating everything in sight like I do. Nor some playboy stud like Frank Merton.

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Sherapy

Where's your proof to make that statement something I will believe in? Until then, I find that a complete untrue statement.

Me too, my sister's murder was not an alternative that consoles me, nor was there something valuable there, that I couldn't of learned otherwise. I appreciate that it is a coping style for some, but for me it's of no benefit, interestingly, I meet life on its terms and there are times life sucks and that is that.

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Likely Guy

Me too, my sister's murder was not an alternative that consoles me, nor was there something valuable there, that I couldn't of learned otherwise. I appreciate that it is a coping style for some, but for me it's of no benefit, interestingly, I meet life on its terms and there are times life sucks and that is that.

Oh, very sorry to hear that... which of course doesn't change anything.

Yeah, life is what it is, after that it's what you can make from it. At other times though a moment in your life can be so glorious and fulfilling that it helps smooth over life's potholes. I guess that's why we all still hang around. I for one am extremely fascinated as to what my life's next chapter will bring. For bad or good.

:(:) <------ Tragedy or Comedy?

Edited by Likely Guy
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