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XenoFish

Pointlessness of Religion

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Mr Walker

Crutches just allow you to fall harder. If you and others need them that's all well and good. I do not. I tried to walk with the crutch before and it made falling worse. The scars deeper. So I stand on my own. The only thing I can trust in is that I have friends who will offer a kind word when needed. Religion offered me no such solace.

I'm sorry to point htis out but you probably wont fall over while using crutches but you might well if you don't use them when you need them. I assume you actually fell when you chose to abandon the crutches?

i am pointing out the weakness in this derogatory metaphor for religion/ belief Religion/belief empowers both the strong and the weak it is not something the strong dont reauire but the weak do.

i have friends whose first born son was born with a severe disability. Now in his forties, he still cannot walk talk or eat dress etc., unassisted and lives in a home with carers; coming home to his parents for holidays. The parents love their son totally and have ensured his care and well being with professional assistance for over 40 years. These are intelligent professional people.

i don't know how much their son's condition contributed to their joining a charismatic church back in the seventies, but belief and faith have enabled them to survive and prosper. They are loving, happy and well adjusted. They ran two different successful businesses for 30 years . Not only the condition of their son, but the temporary rejection by their adopted daughter must have been quite challenging. They are now successful retired professionals whose lives have been enhanced and empowered by their faith in god. They spent the last 20 years, in a bus they restored them selves, travelling all over Australia and doing all sorts of work.

Are you seriously suggesting such people are weak in accepting the power, strength, and courage, offered by god in these circumstances? Only a masochist puts up with pain and suffering when it is not necessary to do so, and IMO, only a fool actually takes pride in choosing to do so.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Davros of Skaro

How do you know? My mom a devote catholic grieved her murdered daughter every day of her remaining life, (30 years of sorrow) her beleif in God did nothing at all to end the pain of loss of a child, what it did was give her hope that she would reunite with my sister, but that doesn't take away that a person has to go on, it didn't take away the grief of losing her, nor did she get over it ever, nor did it prevent the two mental breakdowns she had over the loss. One doesn't heal from this kind of loss they are never the same, they go on but it's not the same ever.

Sorry to hear that.

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Sherapy

Sorry to hear that.

Thank you

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Mr Walker

Listen carefully

I do not tell people they die and that's it.

I tell people what I do know and back it up.

You do not tell people they will die? Umm but do you expect most of them to, eventually?

You don't know that all people will die eventually? ( otherwise in your own words you could tell them this was true, and back it up .)

Either i am missing something here, or you mistyped something.

OR you tell people that they die and then there is/might be something, so death is NOT "just it".

But then, that contradicts your point that you only tell people what you can back up.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Davros of Skaro

You do not tell people they will die? Umm but do you expect most of them to, eventually?

You don't know that all people will die eventually? ( otherwise in your own words you could tell them this was true, and back it up .)

Either i am missing something here, or you mistyped something.

OR you tell people that they die and then there is/might be something, so death is NOT "just it".

But then, that contradicts your point that you only tell people what you can back up.

Oh brother!

Afterlife= I don't know

Jesus died for your sins= Made up fairy tale here's the evidence

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Sherapy

I'm sorry to point htis out but you probably wont fall over while using crutches but you might well if you don't use them when you need them. I assume you actually fell when you chose to abandon the crutches?

i am pointing out the weakness in this derogatory metaphor for religion/ belief Religion/belief empowers both the strong and the weak it is not something the strong dont reauire but the weak do.

i have friends whose first born son was born with a severe disability. Now in his forties, he still cannot walk talk or eat dress etc., unassisted and lives in a home with carers; coming home to his parents for holidays. The parents love their son totally and have ensured his care and well being with professional assistance for over 40 years. These are intelligent professional people.

i don't know how much their son's condition contributed to their joining a charismatic church back in the seventies, but belief and faith have enabled them to survive and prosper. They are loving, happy and well adjusted. They ran two different successful businesses for 30 years . Not only the condition of their son, but the temporary rejection by their adopted daughter must have been quite challenging. They are now successful retired professionals whose lives have been enhanced and empowered by their faith in god. They spent the last 20 years, in a bus they restored them selves, travelling all over Australia and doing all sorts of work.

Are you seriously suggesting such people are weak in accepting the power, strength, and courage, offered by god in these circumstances? Only a masochist puts up with pain and suffering when it is not necessary to do so, and IMO, only a fool actually takes pride in choosing to do so.

I know people as this too, I have met amazing people who rise to the occasion, the ones I know just have these amazing spirits. I used to think it would be so hard in this situation and when I started talking to those living with kids or mates that have serious issues, across the board it became clear it was the unconditional love of their family member and the oppourtunity to express it that drives them. The truth is it's not always about a belief in God( it can be) it's about amazing humans who rise to the occasion. I think it is unfair to them to give the credit to God when it's really them. Our world is full of heros, I have been fortunate to meet some of them.

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Mr Walker

How do you know? My mom a devote catholic grieved her murdered daughter every day of her remaining life, (30 years of sorrow) her beleif in God did nothing at all to end the pain of loss of a child, what it did was give her hope that she would reunite with my sister, but that doesn't take away that a person has to go on, it didn't take away the grief of losing her, nor did she get over it ever, nor did it prevent the two mental breakdowns she had over the loss. One doesn't heal from this kind of loss they are never the same, they go on but it's not the same ever.

i know from observation of modern people and historical reading of ancient and past peoles. i can't comment on your mums case NOR on your own interpretation of her responses which i suspect you are either interpreting through your own belief system or indeed, contributed to the nature of your beliefs.

We have discussed the nature of grief and how it can be alleviated many times before. I am sorry for you mothers loss but much more sorry ha t she spent so much time grieving and hurting and suffering. I know you don't like to hear this but it isn't necessary, or indeed general, to grieve with such passion for so long, although grief is very individual. . I have two sets of friends who lost a child i horrific circumstances Both brutally murdered. The athiests fell apart and were filled with anger and hate which consumed their lives and affected their families for years. The believers forgave, had no guilt , found peace, and grieved "gently" without trauma and more damage to them selves and their families Their faith/belief and specific understandings about the power of forgiveness enabled this.

Now out of the whole tragedy you say your mum had hope Suppose she had all that tragedy and grief ,but was an atheist and had NO hope. Would that have been better or worse for her, in her life ? Would that 30 years have been easier or harder for your mum, without any hope for a future reunion? Lots of people do cope with this sort of tragedy. they have done so for tens of thousands of years, although it is rarer today for this sort of violent death in our society. . but often they have to be shown the means to do this (and i don't mean religion, but effective psychological counselling) Religion/ faith can work just the same and doesn't have to be taught. but in the modern world we should also avail ourselves of the most modern knowledge and methods.

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XenoFish

You sir have no heart and if it doesn't conform to your beliefs apparently it wrong. So I ask, what can people do for people, not what can people do for god or what can god do for people. Because we need more whole hearted people in this world. Not the zealots and spokesmen for imaginary friends.

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Mr Walker
name='Sherapy' timestamp='1451188712' post='5725449']

I know people as this too, I have met amazing people who rise to the occasion, the ones I know just have these amazing spirits. I used to think it would be so hard in this situation and when I started talking to those living with kids or mates that have serious issues, across the board it became clear it was the unconditional love of their family member and the oppourtunity to express it that drives them. The truth is it's not always about a belief in God( it can be) it's about amazing humans who rise to the occasion. I think it is unfair to them to give the credit to God when it's really them. Our world is full of heros, I have been fortunate to meet some of them.

This is a nice post sherapy and shows your compassion, but you see they give credit to god because they know or totally believe that god, the fellowship of their charismatic church, and their faith belief, is what sustained them and gave them the power to make decisions and to get on with life. [/b]

Their understanding of their life is that by themselves they might NOT have had the strength to survive and rise to the occasion. Maybe they would, and certainly maybe others would, but their understanding based on their life, is that it was their faith which empowered them . They were both atheists until this happened. Now they do not even buy a car without consulting god, and they let god make all decisions in their life, after prayer /discussions with him about what to do. it works incredibly well for them in life, although being intelligent , very talented in building and making things, and very hard working, also helps.

They would see it as incredibly unfair to claim credit for their achievements. First their belief and practice involves the physical "infilling" of the holy spirit, and second they have lived their lives totally in accord with gods wishes for them, so to them it is the power and advice of god which has enabled them and made them who/what they are today. From outside i can see the effect of both god in their lives and their own strength courage and abilities/skills.

They asked us to pray for the wife She collapsed and was found to have a severe arrhythmia which was endangering her life . Like us they also accept and acknowledge the power of modern medicine, so they got professional help and were given a new drug. This almost killed her when her heart stopped beating . BUT it then had the unexpected effect tof reformatting her heartbeat into a more regular and sustained rhythm. For the first time n decades she can sleep through the night without losing the abilty to breathe and her heart keeps beating regularly. Unexpected and coincidental effect of a Wonder drug, or the power of prayer? IMO both. .

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Mr Walker

You sir have no heart and if it doesn't conform to your beliefs apparently it wrong. So I ask, what can people do for people, not what can people do for god or what can god do for people. Because we need more whole hearted people in this world. Not the zealots and spokesmen for imaginary friends.

Rather the opposite. My heart drives me, my love and compassion for others directs me to help them the best ways i can. i just believe certain things differently from the way you see them.

We do a lot for people both locally and across the world. i wont get into tha t again. We also support animal welfare and rights around the globe.

i ask WHY do people do or chose NOT to do) things for people, especially those they do not know and have never met and will never know or thank them for their aid. Zealots and spokesmen for imaginary friends can be the most motivated and driven to give of time and money to others.For 40 years we have given over 20% of our after tax income to help others all around the world. This is now totalling over 1 million dollars. We also help locals with home grown food and homeless kids with shelter. This is a consequence both of my original secular humanist beliefs about our duty to help other humans but also my wifes and my own beliefs about our connection to all humans via god and our need to do all we can to help them.

At the risk of offending, just what do you do, and how much money time and effort do you to help others, particularly where no one will never know it was you doing the helping?

. You might do a lot, or all you can manage, in which case i admire your efforts, and can more readily respect your views here, or you might be being a tad hypocritical and judgemental, in which case why should anyone take your views seriously. .

To me, the most whole hearted people are those driven by belief, and the most driven are the zealous ones . Sure they can do great evil if their hearts are wrong, but they are also the ones responsible for the greatest good when their hearts are good. .

Ps what is WRONG, is either causing harm to people by your actions, OR by inaction, allowing harm to occur, where you could have stopped it by your actions.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Hammerclaw

That's your way of saying: "I don't care what the evidence is, I just want to believe."

Yes, and that's what Faith is all about, Charlie Brown.
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Sherapy

i know from observation of modern people and historical reading of ancient and past peoles. i can't comment on your mums case NOR on your own interpretation of her responses which i suspect you are either interpreting through your own belief system or indeed, contributed to the nature of your beliefs.

We have discussed the nature of grief and how it can be alleviated many times before. I am sorry for you mothers loss but much more sorry ha t she spent so much time grieving and hurting and suffering. I know you don't like to hear this but it isn't necessary, or indeed general, to grieve with such passion for so long, although grief is very individual. . I have two sets of friends who lost a child i horrific circumstances Both brutally murdered. The athiests fell apart and were filled with anger and hate which consumed their lives and affected their families for years. The believers forgave, had no guilt , found peace, and grieved "gently" without trauma and more damage to them selves and their families Their faith/belief and specific understandings about the power of forgiveness enabled this.

Now out of the whole tragedy you say your mum had hope Suppose she had all that tragedy and grief ,but was an atheist and had NO hope. Would that have been better or worse for her, in her life ? Would that 30 years have been easier or harder for your mum, without any hope for a future reunion? Lots of people do cope with this sort of tragedy. they have done so for tens of thousands of years, although it is rarer today for this sort of violent death in our society. . but often they have to be shown the means to do this (and i don't mean religion, but effective psychological counselling) Religion/ faith can work just the same and doesn't have to be taught. but in the modern world we should also avail ourselves of the most modern knowledge and methods.

My mother wasn't an Athiest, she was a devoted Catholic.

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Hammerclaw

I went through the same thing Hammer I escaped a burning house with my little son at the time, I didn't believe in God, I didn't need God to get me through, I don't think I am a better person or stronger, but I was taught to be prepared for a rainy day as my grandma called it. Things happen in life that are beyond our control so try and account for that where you can. My lack of beleif didn't affect the outcome, it didn't take away from or add to the experience, it was what it was and I got through it. That is how I took X. But if someone finds solace in undergirding their life with the idea of god I wouldn't begrudge them that, but it isn't a necessity, it is a personal preference.

For some it is very much a necessity--just not for you.
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Hammerclaw

So you survive without crutches. What sort of pain relief do you take? it must be very painful crawling through existence. :devil:

Again, I cant comprehend a world view which sees existence as pointless or meaningless.

First, you are alive and intelligent/self aware.. This gives you the potential to shape your own point and meaning to life. You have imagination, logic, the abilty to see consequence, to plan, organise, extrapolate design, and build.

Good heavens the problem is how much point and purpose you have to chose from. .

Second you are powerful, with powerful capabilities. Given knowledge and technology you can shape not just yourself, but your world . Don't you have an ounce of imagination or creativity in your soul? Just think what you can do and create/achieve. How much beauty you can make? How much pain and suffering you can relieve. How much difference you can make.

Sorry mister walker, I don't know how to fret my posts with sardonic irony. I'm afraid you missed that. My apologies.

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Stubbly_Dooright

How do you know? My mom a devote catholic grieved her murdered daughter every day of her remaining life, (30 years of sorrow) her beleif in God did nothing at all to end the pain of loss of a child, what it did was give her hope that she would reunite with my sister, but that doesn't take away that a person has to go on, it didn't take away the grief of losing her, nor did she get over it ever, nor did it prevent the two mental breakdowns she had over the loss. One doesn't heal from this kind of loss they are never the same, they go on but it's not the same ever.

Yeah, the same thing can be said about my mother. She is a believer, and I can still see her grieving for my brother. It's just something a mother never gets over. I feel for her so much. :(
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Sherapy

You sir have no heart and if it doesn't conform to your beliefs apparently it wrong. So I ask, what can people do for people, not what can people do for god or what can god do for people. Because we need more whole hearted people in this world. Not the zealots and spokesmen for imaginary friends.

This is a good point, MW has said many times he has no emotion, this is a futile conversation to have with him, he is from a time when emotions were ignored and denied. We come from different times, It is best to move on.

Edited by Sherapy
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Davros of Skaro

You sir have no heart and if it doesn't conform to your beliefs apparently it wrong. So I ask, what can people do for people, not what can people do for god or what can god do for people. Because we need more whole hearted people in this world. Not the zealots and spokesmen for imaginary friends.

ZING!

zing-thumb.jpg

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Sherapy

For some it is very much a necessity--just not for you.

For some it is very much a necessity--just not for you.

For some it is very much a necessity--just not for you.

Yes, that Is what I am saying, for me it is not needed. And to be clear I do not speak for anyone else but myself, nor do I think I am better, there is more then one way to get through life, it's about what works for the person, and there is no one perfect way.

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Sherapy

Yeah, the same thing can be said about my mother. She is a believer, and I can still see her grieving for my brother. It's just something a mother never gets over. I feel for her so much. :(

I have yet to meet a mother who lost a child that breezed through it, and called it a day. My mom could put on a happy face when people were around, it's how Catholics are in public, but when people are all gone they are alone in their grief and for those that are behind the scenes I saw the hurt, gosh my heart broke for my mom. People want to think their casseroles or pie will make everything all better, it's nonsense. Humans grieve, while my mom believed she would see must sister in heaven, she grieved her here on earth till the day she died.

Edited by Sherapy
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Stubbly_Dooright

I have yet to meet a mother who lost a child that breezed through it, and called it a day. My mom could put on a happy face when people were around, it's how Catholics are in public, but when people are all gone they are alone in their grief and for those that are behind the scenes I saw the hurt, gosh my heart broke for my mom. People want to think their casseroles or pie will make everything all better, it's nonsense. Humans grieve, while my mom believed she would see must sister in heaven, she grieved her here on earth till the day she died.

There really is nothing one can say, because it's the here and now, no matter if one believed in the afterlife or not, that is the raw truth. I remember, during the first week, after my brother's death, I was told this, and I witnessed someone else say this to my mom, that he was in a better place. Both my mother's and my answer was, "I hope so" , but that really doesn't replace the fact, that his not here now, where we know he is safe with us.
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back to earth

Then there are the people who don't factor make-believe fairytales into their day to day lives. Folks who attribute their success to deities are frustrating. I once trained martial arts with a guy who, whenever he did something good, he would thank god for allowing him to do it, and it always p***ed me off because he was selling himself short. He accomplished those things, not some made-up concept. But he was so brainwashed that he would never take credit for his own accomplishments. It was sick. He was a decent martial artist, and probably still is, but he refuses to acknowledge it. It makes me sad.

at least when you beat him .... you beat God ;)

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Hammerclaw

I have yet to meet a mother who lost a child that breezed through it, and called it a day. My mom could put on a happy face when people were around, it's how Catholics are in public, but when people are all gone they are alone in their grief and for those that are behind the scenes I saw the hurt, gosh my heart broke for my mom. People want to think their casseroles or pie will make everything all better, it's nonsense. Humans grieve, while my mom believed she would see must sister in heaven, she grieved her here on earth till the day she died.

Grieving for the dead is a very poignant vicarious experience. Jesus wept when he saw it.
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Sherapy

Grieving for the dead is a very poignant vicarious experience. Jesus wept when he saw it.

Thank you, hammer.

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw

Thank you hammer.

I watched my father die in my mothers arms five years ago. I remarked after the funeral that "He's in a better place" sounds so comforting--when you're saying it to somebody else. I resolved never to say it to anyone ever again. Edited by Hammerclaw
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back to earth

If this is true, ( bolded bit) why are Chinese dragons so different to European ones, in looks, temperament and intelligence?

I can answer that for you . Dragons represent the lust and passions and sexuality and tantra and magical energy and the Anima. Europeans are influenced by Christianity and dont like that stuff, they want to kill the dragon and rescue the maiden (who is usually in the background somewhere ) , they actually are suppressing and killing their own natural urges, the 'beast' , that they are against, so they can save the innocent virgin and protect her ... while writing in an agony of unfulfilled passion passing under the guise of 'romance' (in the sense of the troubadour movement ) .

" Stay back m'lady I shall dispose of this swart, serpentine and writhing, erect beastie thingo ! "

Raphael_-_Saint_George_Fighting_the_Dragon.jpg

While China ( an d Japan and other pagan based cultures ) ..... well, aren't like that. They never got told to suppress those things and that were evil ... so they aren't .

Public common celebration in Japan

penis-festival-6.jpg

guess what is coming down the street from the other direction and what will happen when they meet in the middle of the village ?

* image removed *

they even got lollies and sweets to eat !

dscf1638.jpg

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