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Xeno-Fish

Pointlessness of Religion

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Sherapy

I watched my father die in my mothers arms five years ago. I remarked after the funeral that "He's in a better place" sounds so comforting--when you're saying it to somebody else. I resolved never to say it to anyone ever again.

Yes, it is about the worst thing to say, I found out when my sister was murdered, those that said that or gave me cards only made me feel way worse. It is best to say nothing, it is best to just hug them, let them know you respect their right to heal in their own time, that you get nothing will ever make it better, it's a respect thing. My mom died 3 years ago, my step dad is still grieving and I still just sit and listen, I am heading to Florida Jan. 14 to be there for the anniversary of her death, he does awful this time of year and needs me to just be there for him and I will go every year if it goes on for the next 20 years. My step dad Is catholic too, in fact he is very committed to his faith, yet, he misses my mom and has the right to feel this way and I get it. Thank you for your kind words, compassion, and understanding.

Edited by Sherapy
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back to earth

You, or is it BTE, keep telling people that every one dies eventually. How is telling them they will eventually die a permanent death any different to what you believe? The flip side is that Christian belief offers a hope that some might live forever in a place without death pain suffering etc.

so .... aside from the fact that I just say you will die - which you will, and now you are projecting a denial of any type of afterlife into my comment about you dying ... as usual . ......

even if you were right on that inserted presumption , all I would be saying that is different is that you will be dead in a place without pain and suffering . And if that is so important to everyone .... why dont Christians all commit mass suicide ?

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back to earth

Crutches just allow you to fall harder. If you and others need them that's all well and good. I do not. I tried to walk with the crutch before and it made falling worse. The scars deeper. So I stand on my own. The only thing I can trust in is that I have friends who will offer a kind word when needed. Religion offered me no such solace.

Dang! Some b****** sold you rotten falling apart old crutches . Some people will do anything to turn a buck :td:

Glad you have friends to lean on when you need ;)

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back to earth

You do not tell people they will die? Umm but do you expect most of them to, eventually?

You don't know that all people will die eventually? ( otherwise in your own words you could tell them this was true, and back it up .)

Either i am missing something here, or you mistyped something.

OR you tell people that they die and then there is/might be something, so death is NOT "just it".

But then, that contradicts your point that you only tell people what you can back up.

So typical of Walker !

he said he never tells people said ; death is final and thats it .

Now you are pretending to be confused as if he he doesnt believe people die at all.

or perhaps you have really gotten that confused about people's meanings

practice makes ' perfect' I suppose ?

{ get ready folks Walker will now make a loooong post trying to show how he is perfectly justified in making this stupid blunder

... or try to cover it up as him 'testing' or 'serving back' or something .... plus some self praise ;) )

Edited by back to earth
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back to earth

Oh brother!

Afterlife= I don't know

Jesus died for your sins= Made up fairy tale here's the evidence

and this guy was a teacher ! O brother ! Indeed !

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back to earth

My mother wasn't an Athiest, she was a devoted Catholic.

typical Walker assumption and judgement based on his own misperceptions around a sensitive other person's subject .... again !

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back to earth

I watched my father die in my mothers arms five years ago. I remarked after the funeral that "He's in a better place" sounds so comforting--when you're saying it to somebody else. I resolved never to say it to anyone ever again.

Thank you for that and coming to that decision :tu:

St my fathers highly religious funeral and wake , the relos could not stop saying that to me , and lamenting and saying what a good person he was ... but I saw the doubt and blind fear behind their eyes and their white knuckle clasped prayer hands .

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Hammerclaw

so .... aside from the fact that I just say you will die - which you will, and now you are projecting a denial of any type of afterlife into my comment about you dying ... as usual . ......

even if you were right on that inserted presumption , all I would be saying that is different is that you will be dead in a place without pain and suffering . And if that is so important to everyone .... why dont Christians all commit mass suicide ?

Because "the everlasting set his canon 'gainst self slaughter?" Or "the dread of something after death, the undiscover country from whose bourn no traveler returns puzzles the will and makes us rather bear those ills we have than fly to others that we know not of?" Or maybe we just enjoy life and our loved ones and want to stick around as long as we can.
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Hammerclaw

Thank you for that and coming to that decision :tu:

St my fathers highly religious funeral and wake , the relos could not stop saying that to me , and lamenting and saying what a good person he was ... but I saw the doubt and blind fear behind their eyes and their white knuckle clasped prayer hands .

Yes, practicing what you're preached isn't as easy as it's cracked up to be. That's often why religion is such a bugbear to people who don't want any. It's a constant reminder of that dying thing. Religion seems to them an obsession with death.
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Hammerclaw

Chinese dragons and the Europeans ones are very different beasts. A Chinese scholar lamented that it was unfortunate that the name for their celestial serpent was translated as dragon. It bears a greater resemblance to Quetzalcoatl of the Aztecs and Kukulcan of the Maya.

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Mr Walker

Oh brother!

Afterlife= I don't know

Jesus died for your sins= Made up fairy tale here's the evidence

That is not possible. The best any human can claim is they do not and cannot know what happens after death. Given that, it is impossible for you to logically or accurately claim you can know that the Christian mythology is false. You can't provide any evidence that it is false, and so it must be, at best, a strongly held belief of yours that it is. . That carries the same weight as someone else's strongly held belief that the mythology is true.

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Mr Walker

My mother wasn't an Athiest, she was a devoted Catholic.

Yes. Hence my question

Suppose she had all that tragedy and grief ,but was an atheist and had NO hope. Would that have been better or worse for her, in her life ?

You had already said that the one thing your mother, as a catholic, had to cling to was her hope of reunion. NOW, How would her life have been improved if she was an atheist and thus had NO such hope.?

You argued that hope did not help her cope with death . How much less well would she have coped without the hope offered by her belief.?

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Mr Walker

Sorry mister walker, I don't know how to fret my posts with sardonic irony. I'm afraid you missed that. My apologies.

my apologies also i am so used to sarcasm and ridicule aimed AT belief, that i missed the opposite .

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Mr Walker

I can answer that for you . Dragons represent the lust and passions and sexuality and tantra and magical energy and the Anima. Europeans are influenced by Christianity and dont like that stuff, they want to kill the dragon and rescue the maiden (who is usually in the background somewhere ) , they actually are suppressing and killing their own natural urges, the 'beast' , that they are against, so they can save the innocent virgin and protect her ... while writing in an agony of unfulfilled passion passing under the guise of 'romance' (in the sense of the troubadour movement ) .

" Stay back m'lady I shall dispose of this swart, serpentine and writhing, erect beastie thingo ! "

Raphael_-_Saint_George_Fighting_the_Dragon.jpg

While China ( an d Japan and other pagan based cultures ) ..... well, aren't like that. They never got told to suppress those things and that were evil ... so they aren't .

Public common celebration in Japan

penis-festival-6.jpg

guess what is coming down the street from the other direction and what will happen when they meet in the middle of the village ?

* image removed *

they even got lollies and sweets to eat !

dscf1638.jpg

LOL I like the humour and interpretation but i am not ready to put such a huge cultural difference down to sexual repression Many cultural anthropologists and sociologists argue that the two areas are very different for a variety of different reasons

For example the west has always looked outwards, and based its energies around materialism and technological progress, hence the maritime expansion and exploration as early as viking times. (and ealrier in trade routes around the coast of europe. while the east has tended to look inwards and based itself on culture civilization etc. The west long had a greater dynamism, perhaps fueled by divisions and conflicts, than the East

In china, particularly, there were long periods of peace and stability which never occurred in Europe, creating a calmer, more peaceful psyche and perception of the world. and also a less conflict based religious system in which ancestor worship and the importance of tradition played a major role (both reflecting the longer periods of peace and stability found in china.).

But your argument is sexier.

The american Indians and the meso americans were not influenced by Europeans until contacted, yet they had a more European view of the world, perhaps because of similar conflict and turmoil.

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Mr Walker

so .... aside from the fact that I just say you will die - which you will, and now you are projecting a denial of any type of afterlife into my comment about you dying ... as usual . ......

even if you were right on that inserted presumption , all I would be saying that is different is that you will be dead in a place without pain and suffering . And if that is so important to everyone .... why dont Christians all commit mass suicide ?

Ah my mistake. You are using the false doctrine of Catholicism to judge Christianity by, That, (hell /eternal torment) is a construction of catholic theologians and is not biblical. The bible simply says that the wages of sin is death and the saved have everasting life I agree with you. The idea of some eternal torment is evil and a god who proposed it would also be evil But you will be glad to hear that there is no biblical justification for it, and it cant thus be biblical christian belief.

i dont understand your last question. Most Christians are NOT in pain and suffering or at least far less so than non believers. Faith protects from most if not all pain and suffering. But also i imagine that most people don't want to die, even if they might then be resurrected.

My wife believes absolutely that when she dies she will be unconscious/asleep until the resurrection day and then live eternally on the new earth. But as far as i know she has never had the slightest temptation to kill herslef to hurry up the procedure (in part because she sees her life as gods to work with as he wills.) ( Interestingly though she has asked me that if she gets old and is in pain and suffering, or has advanced dementia, that i do end her life, as she has no fear of death as such.

yea I now this sounds contradictory. Her reasons for this are complex. She trusts god but doesn't want to be a burden on others and doesn't want to develop alzheimers where she might lose her faith and belief before she dies as she loses all conscious reasoning and understanding. ( we watched her parents go through this process over the years they lived with us until they died . She saw her mother go from devout believer to a non sentient non self awre being before she died, and doesn't want that to happen to her.

.

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Mr Walker

typical Walker assumption and judgement based on his own misperceptions around a sensitive other person's subject .... again !

Oh so you didn't actually read my question, AGAIN, Sherapy didnt read or understand it either, but i have explained what i was asking.

Knowing her mum was a devout catholic, wasn't her hope and faith that she would see her daughter again, the one shining light in the whole terrible experience, the one ray of comfort in a bleak and horrible life. . How would/could it have been better if her mum was an atheist and thus had NO such hope for reunion.? Didn't her mum's belief, and thus hope, give SOME light or comfort in the whole thing?

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Mr Walker

Thank you for that and coming to that decision :tu:

St my fathers highly religious funeral and wake , the relos could not stop saying that to me , and lamenting and saying what a good person he was ... but I saw the doubt and blind fear behind their eyes and their white knuckle clasped prayer hands .

Seriously you should come to few funerals for my family Of course no one would say my parents had gone to a better place, partly because dad was a total atheist and mum's religion was more social than anything,. and a very minor part of her life. Also they didn't need to go to a BETTER place, because they had a damned good life here on earth, despite hardships, poverty and tragedies over the years, BUT their funerals were a celebration of life and death, a lot of fun and food. i met everyone at the door, before doing the eulogies, and there wasn't a sign of fear in anyone's eyes, and not a white knuckle in sight. My mums funeral card reads "united with jack" but non of the family believes this literally as in gone to heaven. Their ashes WILL be placed together in the cemetery, so they will actually be together and side by side.

there were atheists (lots) agnostics and complete believers at both funerals. If someone wanted to comfort me by saying dad or mum had gone to a better place that would have been just as fine as those who told me how mum and dad had helped them over the years or abut the incredible amount of social and charitable work my mother did.

i respect OTHER people's rights to express their beliefs, what ever they are. The words were a token of THEIR respect for my parents and how they felt about them. It would have been wrong and dishonourable of me to disrespect their expressions at the time,.even if i have no belief in heaven .

Edited by Mr Walker

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Davros of Skaro

That is not possible. The best any human can claim is they do not and cannot know what happens after death. Given that, it is impossible for you to logically or accurately claim you can know that the Christian mythology is false. You can't provide any evidence that it is false, and so it must be, at best, a strongly held belief of yours that it is. . That carries the same weight as someone else's strongly held belief that the mythology is true.

Do you subscribe to "Girls and Corpses" Magazine?

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Stubbly_Dooright

I watched my father die in my mothers arms five years ago. I remarked after the funeral that "He's in a better place" sounds so comforting--when you're saying it to somebody else. I resolved never to say it to anyone ever again.

I just feel, there are no words to express to those who lost loved ones. A parent who lost a child, all I can think, is just be there. Well, just be there for anyone.

I just think, you try your best, but to think you have some form of 'knowledge' because of something you follow, is some form of mistaken arrogance. In the end, you end up hurting. I always am reminded of this scene from 'Steel Magnolias', mostly the beginning of this video. Daryl Hannah's character saying what is usually said, but Sally Field's character saying something that is definitely what is really is what felt.

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Davros of Skaro

I don't recall the specific conversation, but I really doubt I would have used that phrase. At worst I would have suggested that the fate of non-believers is much like the fate expected by atheists - that is, they become (for lack of a better term) worm food. In this sense I don't think I am any better or any worse than an atheist who says "when you die, you die, that's it, the end". But apparently because I believe that there's a life after death for those who choose Jesus I am classified differently. Somehow.

I talked to Shadowhive. He remembers the Worm food part, but not burned up.

My apologies.

Do you believe people that reject Jesus "burn up"?

John 15:6

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

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Grandpa Greenman

I watched my father die in my mothers arms five years ago. I remarked after the funeral that "He's in a better place" sounds so comforting--when you're saying it to somebody else. I resolved never to say it to anyone ever again.

After losing parents, spouse, a best friend all I can say is I don't know happens, but they do live on in my heart.

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Sherapy

Yes. Hence my question

Suppose she had all that tragedy and grief ,but was an atheist and had NO hope. Would that have been better or worse for her, in her life ?

You had already said that the one thing your mother, as a catholic, had to cling to was her hope of reunion. NOW, How would her life have been improved if she was an atheist and thus had NO such hope.?

You argued that hope did not help her cope with death . How much less well would she have coped without the hope offered by her belief.?

Your question of what if she was an atheist contextually and logically doesn't flow. She was a Catholic that was her reality and from this perspective the beliefs didn't make things better, that is the point. My mom had two mental breakdowns and grieved anyways. In this case, it is not a matter of right beliefs, it is a matter of they didn't help her during her lifetime; It is what it is, her beleif in God didn't work for her, she was a devoted Catholic.

Edited by Sherapy
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Xeno-Fish

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hope

You don't need religion to have hope. We all have hopes and dreams. You seem to think that atheist are somehow either depressingly nihilistic or absolute hedonist. Some of us look at life and say "Well crap, how do if fix this." instead of passing it off to a 'higher power'.

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Sherapy

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hope

You don't need religion to have hope. We all have hopes and dreams. You seem to think that atheist are somehow either depressingly nihilistic or absolute hedonist. Some of us look at life and say "Well crap, how do if fix this." instead of passing it off to a 'higher power'.

Exactly, great things happen all the time, there is a thing called timing and luck. Crappy things happen too and you go on, I handle my own issues; we don't need religion, in fact, I grew up with it so did you and to compare and contrast I think for me just facing life realistically has brought me the greatest peace overall. I have not found it necessary to need to undergird a god.

I also don't think I am better off for it, everyone I know lives happy contented lives with wonderful things happening and not so wonderful things. The only poster we have who says otherwise is MW. (I call BS)

My husband and I have been through job loses ( in the early days of our marriage) broken vehicle and no money right away to get it fixed, but we got through it, we can always work fortunately for the both of us we found ways. Honestly, in retrospect looking back it was fun.

We literally took a chance with 300 dollars to our name, left most of our belongings and moved to the beach, ( our dream) neither of us had jobs, we came here (on the fact) knowing what each of us were capable of.

We both had jobs the next day, we know we can do anything. Everyone we tell that story too loves it. We bought a map and I closed my eyes and picked and this is where we ended up, and we made it happen.

It was so exciting to do what we wanted, ( it doesn't matter if life is presenting you with great things or not so great the angst is still there, it says you are alive, it's what freedom feels like to me, of course now a days we are no longer broke, we have had wonderful things happen too.

But so what my story is one of a million, no less amazing then another's, no one is going to like me better, or bow at my feet, no one cares about things like that, it's about the person you are when you are in the room that matters, not if you believe in God or not. Sheesh.

For us, having a partner by our side, wonderful kids to love and brighten our days is the greatest gift of all, and our kids adore us, for us it doesn't get any better than that. For us, It has nothing to do with God, it has been us; I am living my heaven. I just assume everyone else is too, there isn't one path that is better then another, because it's what you make of the path you are on, and we all find a way that works best for us.

Edited by Sherapy
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back to earth

Yes. Hence my question

Suppose she had all that tragedy and grief ,but was an atheist and had NO hope. Would that have been better or worse for her, in her life ?

You had already said that the one thing your mother, as a catholic, had to cling to was her hope of reunion. NOW, How would her life have been improved if she was an atheist and thus had NO such hope.?

You argued that hope did not help her cope with death . How much less well would she have coped without the hope offered by her belief.?

You cant change horses mid stream. if she was an atheist, she would have been a different person. What you are asking is like asking us to imagine you , as you are, but as a materialist. People's beliefs have a large part in forming the type of person they are, that is a point many of us have been making - even you !

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