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XenoFish

Pointlessness of Religion

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gubloid13

I've been thinking a lot about this topic recently. I mean, there's no arguing that religion has played an important role in the history of society when our primitive ancestors needed answers. They didn't understand how things worked and needed an explanation but we've gotten past that, haven't we? We know more about the world, about how it works, but now religion doesn't fit. In my opinion it's just a waste of our time. It's just another thing that makes us different from one another, another thing to argue about, when we could be advancing our society or focusing our efforts on things that ACTUALLY matter. That doesn't mean we stop having morals, it just means that we teach our children empathy and respect for their fellow human in a different, more real way.

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Stubbly_Dooright

back to earth:

You'll excuse me, if I don't view that. As I had told Sheri, in various forms of text, the scene in 'Kingsmen' pretty much had my stomach turning, ( despite the well played out choragraphed moves and the companioned retro song to boot ) and I even had to turn away a lot of times during the scene. )

And then the following scene with Colin Firth's character......................................................

Spoilers!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

What? Ya thought I might add a bit more to that?

Uh uh! :D

I sometimes wonder if the point of life is to consider a "God"

Never have I met anyone that hasn't at least considered it. I have no answers, for sure, but encourage the brave quest.

Interesting. :) Your first line, I find this a wonder. I actually think, maybe the point of life is to consider all things, just not a "God". Maybe, that is how we grow as a society.

Now, you reported as not, but I have met quite a few who practice considering anything, but when you're a military wife that works in retail, you meet a few different individuals in one's life. ;)

But, we all should go on the brave quest, what ever the brave quest it turns out. :yes:

Interesting (for me) it's been to live without one, it's actually been very fun, I wouldn't encourage it though as I think the path a person walks has to be their choice, this to me is what takes courage, to let people find their own happiness and the rest of us to be happy for them.

Exactly. ( and of course, I couldn't say it better than Sheri here. :) )

I think that is also probably the ticket to personal happiness. Not that it's a worshiping a god or goddess, or not worshiping anything at all. It's the grounded and confident sense of self that finds it's own happiness from their own path, and not anyone else's. That even means, if there are services one is going to, they do it for their own being, not because someone told them to. The same goes to not believing, it's what they feel is the right thing to do.

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Mr Walker

You are right to point it out, measurably speaking, ( and in measuring your posts) you do not demonstrate that you have mastered the qualities needed to be the kind of person who is an inspiration to me, you could be right it's your Internet personality that is the problem, and for whatever it's worth this personality comes across as dishonest, disingenuous, righteous, and condescending ( I stopped reading 'it' at "you have given away millions" on a school teachers salary"), especially when you have told us to the penny what you make and live on.

Until you get right with yourself I do not see much value in your message, for me, but thank you for sharing none the less. And, I am happy with my path, life is good to me and mine.

All the best to you, and, no need to respond I am done with this conversation.

But i have to respond because in deed I HAVE detailed how earned and spent that money i didn't go into detail again because that too is criticised.

My wife and i, since even before we were married have given away a minimum of 20 % of our income, before tax, and for much of the time 30=40 % This generates some tax refunds which can also be donated. we have also given away a number of inheritances from family members who died and left them to us.

Over 45 years on a single teachers salary that has added up to over a million dollars. I t left us more than enough to live very well ,buy a house, support homeless kids etc. However we have had one holiday in that 45 years which occurred after we lost everything in the bushfire, where we visited some nearby coastal towns for a few weeks. We save money by buying, for example, all our clothing and furniture etc second hand for next to nothing. I can dress myself very nicely in a set of good clothes and shoes for less than 20 dollars, for example.

Now i am retired, my income has dropped from nearly 100,000 dollars a year, down to $35000, yet we still live richly and comfortably, and want for nothing, but i no longer have a spare $50000 a year or so to give away. Out of that $35000 we still give away about $5000, supporting young people around the world and animal welfare.

The problem is your genuine difficulty in comprehending how or why anyone would do this. It is simple. we live a very rich life, blessed, protected, and supported by god , and we have NEVER needed most of the money i earned.

i worked for the fun, pleasure and challenge, not the money, anyway. Rather than spend it on things we do not need, or accumulate it, we spend it on people and animals who are in desperate need, and where a few dollars actually makes the difference between life and death..

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Mr Walker

What is in Aussie Coke Zero ?

Sodium cyclamate, a relatively inexpensive artificial sweetener banned by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) since 1969 and once believed to be acarcinogen, has been used in the Coca-Cola Zero versions produced in Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Venezuela, Chile, and some Central American countries. It was used for a time in Mexico, before a consumer campaign led to its removal from the drink in 2008. In June 2009 Venezuela ordered Coca-Cola to withdraw its Coca-Cola Zero product, as it contained more than the legal levels of sodium cyclamate ....

Now, you do know Australia will sell things to its populace that come from America, when it has been banned in America ?

Sure but i am a super hero, so Cyclamate doesn't worry me at all. :whistle:

It used to be in some artificial sweeteners in Australia used in tea coffee and cooking. I'd be more worried about aluminium saucepans etc., which might be a cause of altzheimers

Phenylalanine is the active sweetener, in coke zero in Australia , also sold as aspartame. It is quite safe unless you have a certain specific genetic disorder, which is why it must be labelled in the contents.

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robinrenee

Not really tongue in cheek (the super powers are super in the sense of being above or over the recognised abilities of the non spiritually aware mind and body.)

I guess it sounds like a sermon because it is a belief driven, value laden, speech from my heart and mind. I cry to see the state of individuals and of humanity; their pain, suffering, isolation loneliness, unhappiness, depression, fear, anger, lust, envy hatred bigotry etc., when it is all so unnecessary

We have the power and abilty locked within each one of us, to live in such a better way than we do now, and we even have it written down how to achieve this. Yet so many people don't even try. Their lives are so MUCH less than they could be, in every way. It is incredibly sad to see this, when you know what is possible and achievable.

I do agree with you, Mr Walker. My tongue-in-cheek comment referred to the sermon-esk quality of your post. I'm glad for your sincerity. I too believe in the power of the spirit. When I was very young, I "fell in love" with God and with the Christ. I've carried that love for all my life and have now included all the Messengers of God in my adoration.

I have great memories of the "armor of God" sermons. They were not about hell fire and damnation. (My church did not go that route.) They were about empowering believers. Remember the old hymn ... "A mighty fortress is our God, a bulwark never failing." That's apparently a personal thing between God and His followers.

I was taught, and I believe, that the love of God is showered on ALL mankind. To me the difference is that when one "falls in love" with God, our own spirit opens a conduit through which we are able to feel and experience God's love. That's just my way of explaining the inexplicable.

And... honestly, I'm not trying to say my way is the best or only way. Whatever gives one the peace they seek is their right way.

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Sherapy

But i have to respond because in deed I HAVE detailed how earned and spent that money i didn't go into detail again because that too is criticised.

My wife and i, since even before we were married have given away a minimum of 20 % of our income, before tax, and for much of the time 30=40 % This generates some tax refunds which can also be donated. we have also given away a number of inheritances from family members who died and left them to us.

Over 45 years on a single teachers salary that has added up to over a million dollars. I t left us more than enough to live very well ,buy a house, support homeless kids etc. However we have had one holiday in that 45 years which occurred after we lost everything in the bushfire, where we visited some nearby coastal towns for a few weeks. We save money by buying, for example, all our clothing and furniture etc second hand for next to nothing. I can dress myself very nicely in a set of good clothes and shoes for less than 20 dollars, for example.

Now i am retired, my income has dropped from nearly 100,000 dollars a year, down to $35000, yet we still live richly and comfortably, and want for nothing, but i no longer have a spare $50000 a year or so to give away. Out of that $35000 we still give away about $5000, supporting young people around the world and animal welfare.

The problem is your genuine difficulty in comprehending how or why anyone would do this. It is simple. we live a very rich life, blessed, protected, and supported by god , and we have NEVER needed most of the money i earned.

i worked for the fun, pleasure and challenge, not the money, anyway. Rather than spend it on things we do not need, or accumulate it, we spend it on people and animals who are in desperate need, and where a few dollars actually makes the difference between life and death..

Okay, Let's assume this is true:

Your premise was God has made you the better person you are today by donating over a million dollars of your pay, etc,etc. while leaving you to live at the poverty line after 45 years of working, you think this is a value worth recommending and a god worth worshipping and you go as far as to conclude I will be better off then I currently am on my Athiestic path.

My counter is this: this is not a value or a god I find redeeming to give away money to be left to struggle to make ends meet, having to garden to eat, and wear second hand clothes, ( in my case I would become a burden to my own children, forcing them to be responsible for me when I should have planned for my care myself).

You are an old man, who has already had heart surgery, how will you do all this, and care for an Alzheimer's patient ( do you really know how hard that is at your age/ a care giver is out , by your own choice) and then the alternate plan is to consider euthanasia( eeks) for your wife ( even when this means going to jail ) in the event, her Alzheimer's makes her lose her ability to beleive in God ( not believing in God might not be the worst thing from where I sit).

An all " benevolent " god would have encouraged you to save the money you gave away, in the event, this might be the case, ( and with your superhuman powers and ability to predict things, time travel etc. /this is gods best plan for you) ( ouch) and your own personal experience with her family history of Alzheimer's, and caring for family members.

That you did not challenge ([ God] about adopting this value as you do everything else) and instead offer him a counter of how about if I set up a fund to give what ever remains to charity shows me you didn't think this through and that you make rash decisions for yourself, therefore, not to take your advice.

Not only are these poorly thought out values, and horrible advice from God, but then to recommend them to me and try and encourage me not question these values as a mature adult, regardless, of the source is foolhardy, amoral, and irresponsible.

Edited by Sherapy
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back to earth

I've been thinking a lot about this topic recently. I mean, there's no arguing that religion has played an important role in the history of society when our primitive ancestors needed answers. They didn't understand how things worked and needed an explanation but we've gotten past that, haven't we? We know more about the world, about how it works, but now religion doesn't fit. In my opinion it's just a waste of our time. It's just another thing that makes us different from one another, another thing to argue about, when we could be advancing our society or focusing our efforts on things that ACTUALLY matter. That doesn't mean we stop having morals, it just means that we teach our children empathy and respect for their fellow human in a different, more real way.

That has started to happen here in some state schools, they were trying to phase out 'scripture teachers' coming in and replacing classes in 'scripture' and 'religion' with ethics and morals :tu:

At last ! I say this because, among other reasons, I once heard the little kids here ... just little kids that were playing down the river ..... having a conversation about whether they thought , when they died, they would be punished forever in hell ! I asked therm where on earth they heard that stuff ( as they dont have religious parents and went to the state school ) and they said the visiting scripture teacher told them !

And their parents didnt even know that was happening !

... and NO Walker ... she was no a Catholic scripture teacher .

Edited by back to earth
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back to earth

But i have to respond because in deed I HAVE detailed how earned and spent that money i didn't go into detail again because that too is criticised.

My wife and i, since even before we were married have given away a minimum of 20 % of our income, before tax, and for much of the time 30=40 % This generates some tax refunds which can also be donated. we have also given away a number of inheritances from family members who died and left them to us.

Over 45 years on a single teachers salary that has added up to over a million dollars. I t left us more than enough to live very well ,buy a house, support homeless kids etc. However we have had one holiday in that 45 years which occurred after we lost everything in the bushfire, where we visited some nearby coastal towns for a few weeks. We save money by buying, for example, all our clothing and furniture etc second hand for next to nothing. I can dress myself very nicely in a set of good clothes and shoes for less than 20 dollars, for example.

Now i am retired, my income has dropped from nearly 100,000 dollars a year, down to $35000, yet we still live richly and comfortably, and want for nothing, but i no longer have a spare $50000 a year or so to give away. Out of that $35000 we still give away about $5000, supporting young people around the world and animal welfare.

The problem is your genuine difficulty in comprehending how or why anyone would do this. It is simple. we live a very rich life, blessed, protected, and supported by god , and we have NEVER needed most of the money i earned.

i worked for the fun, pleasure and challenge, not the money, anyway. Rather than spend it on things we do not need, or accumulate it, we spend it on people and animals who are in desperate need, and where a few dollars actually makes the difference between life and death..

Interpreted for those that got bored reading this again ;

but I have to respond ... I just have to ! ... I cant not respond ... actually I have already responded with all of this ... but i will list it all again anyway, even though you dont want to read it .... I'm a good guy, really! Dont believe all the stuff written down here about me, that may lead you to think otherwise ..... that I wrote ....

:D

Clsssic !

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back to earth

Okay, Let's assume this is true:

Your premise was God has made you the person you are by donating over a million dollars of your pay while leaving you to live at the poverty line after 45 years of working, you think this is a value worth recommending and a god worth worshipping and you go as far as to conclude I will be better off then I currently am on my Athiestic path.

My counter is this: this is not a value or a god I find redeeming to give away money to be left to struggle to make ends meet, having to garden to eat, and wear second hand clothes, ( in my case I would become a burden to my own children, forcing them to be responsible for me when I should have planned for my care myself.) You are an old man, who has already had heart surgery, how will you do all this, and care for an Alzheimer's patient, ( do you really know how hard that is at your age/ a care giver is out , by your own choice) and then the alternate plan is to consider euthanasia( eeks) for your wife ( even if it means going to jail ) in the event, her Alzheimer's makes her lose her ability to beleive in God ( not believing in God might not be the worst thing from where I sit).

An all " benevolent " god would have encouraged you to save the money you gave away, in the event, this might be the case, ( and with your superhuman powers and ability to predict things, time travel etc. /this is gods best plan for you) ( ouch) and your own personal experience with her family history of Alzheimer's, and caring for family members.

That you did not challenge ([ God] about adopting this value as you do everything else) and instead offer him a counter of how about if I set up a fund to give what ever remains to charity shows me you didn't think this through and that you make rash decisions for yourself, therefore, not to take your advice.

Not only are these poorly thought out values, and horrible advice from God, but then to recommend them to me and try and encourage me not question these values as a mature adult, regardless, of the source is foolhardy, amoral, and irresponsible.

Good points ... but if he had put it in a fund or superannuation, the government he loves and is proud of so much.... it would have been taken off him anyway .

" Australians are required by law to save 9 per cent of their salaries in an effectively unregulated privately managed system. ... In general, very few people in Australia now know what they will have to live on when they retire. It is a lottery. In the space of two decades we have gone from knowing and not having to worry, to not having faintest clue, and worrying like hell. ... Many people, realising late in life that they won't have enough, start taking bigger and bigger risks as they approach retirement to improve their returns, when the opposite is recommended. For some this pays; for many it is a disaster.

So once they retire, Australians are exposed to the greatest risk of them all: that they will have the misfortune to live a long time.

Moreover, the crackdown on smoking, the advent of effective anti-cholesterol drugs and advances in cancer research, among other things, will ensure that life expectancy increases dramatically from here.

It is a national disgrace. "

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-31/kohler-australia-super-disgrace/4343108

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back to earth

Sure but i am a super hero, so Cyclamate doesn't worry me at all. :whistle:

It used to be in some artificial sweeteners in Australia used in tea coffee and cooking. I'd be more worried about aluminium saucepans etc., which might be a cause of altzheimers

Phenylalanine is the active sweetener, in coke zero in Australia , also sold as aspartame. It is quite safe unless you have a certain specific genetic disorder, which is why it must be labelled in the contents.

Adverse reactions and side effects of aspartame include:

Eye

blindness in one or both eyes

decreased vision and/or other eye problems such as: blurring, bright flashes, squiggly lines, tunnel vision, decreased night vision

pain in one or both eyes

decreased tears

trouble with contact lenses

bulging eyes

Ear

tinnitus - ringing or buzzing sound

severe intolerance of noise

marked hearing impairment

Neurologic

epileptic seizures

headaches, migraines and (some severe)

dizziness, unsteadiness, both

confusion, memory loss, both

severe drowsiness and sleepiness

paresthesia or numbness of the limbs

severe slurring of speech

severe hyperactivity and restless legs

atypical facial pain

severe tremors

Psychological/Psychiatric

severe depression

irritability

aggression

anxiety

personality changes

insomnia

phobias

Chest

palpitations, tachycardia

shortness of breath

recent high blood pressure

Gastrointestinal

nausea

diarrhea, sometimes with blood in stools

abdominal pain

pain when swallowing

Skin and Allergies

itching without a rash

lip and mouth reactions

hives

aggravated respiratory allergies such as asthma

Endocrine and Metabolic

loss of control of diabetes

menstrual changes

marked thinning or loss of hair

marked weight loss

gradual weight gain

aggravated low blood sugar (hypoglycemia)

severe PMS

Other

frequency of voiding and burning during urination

excessive thirst, fluid retention, leg swelling, and bloating

increased susceptibility to infection

Additional Symptoms of Aspartame Toxicity include the most critical symptoms of all

death

irreversible brain damage

birth defects, including mental retardation

peptic ulcers

aspartame addiction and increased craving for sweets

hyperactivity in children

severe depression

aggressive behavior

suicidal tendencies

Aspartame may trigger, mimic, or cause the following illnesses:

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

Epstein-Barr

Post-Polio Syndrome

Lyme Disease

Grave’s Disease

Meniere’s Disease

Alzheimer’s Disease

ALS

Epilepsy

Multiple Sclerosis (MS)

EMS

Hypothyroidism

Mercury sensitivity from Amalgam fillings

Fibromyalgia

Lupus

non-Hodgkins

Lymphoma

Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)

http://www.sweetpoison.com/aspartame-side-effects.html

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back to earth

Maybe this is the answer as to what happened !

Too much coke zero !

And as matter of fact, aspartame WAS removed from the public market after it was approved. Aspartame has actually been approved for market TWICE. In the 1970s, aspartame was first approved by the FDA, but that approval was immediately rescinded when research was presented, showing that aspartame ate holes in the brains of the lab animals at Washington University.

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Davros of Skaro

Maybe this is the answer as to what happened !

Too much coke zero !

And as matter of fact, aspartame WAS removed from the public market after it was approved. Aspartame has actually been approved for market TWICE. In the 1970s, aspartame was first approved by the FDA, but that approval was immediately rescinded when research was presented, showing that aspartame ate holes in the brains of the lab animals at Washington University.

I was thinking the same thing...LOL!

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Mr Walker

I do agree with you, Mr Walker. My tongue-in-cheek comment referred to the sermon-esk quality of your post. I'm glad for your sincerity. I too believe in the power of the spirit. When I was very young, I "fell in love" with God and with the Christ. I've carried that love for all my life and have now included all the Messengers of God in my adoration.

I have great memories of the "armor of God" sermons. They were not about hell fire and damnation. (My church did not go that route.) They were about empowering believers. Remember the old hymn ... "A mighty fortress is our God, a bulwark never failing." That's apparently a personal thing between God and His followers.

I was taught, and I believe, that the love of God is showered on ALL mankind. To me the difference is that when one "falls in love" with God, our own spirit opens a conduit through which we are able to feel and experience God's love. That's just my way of explaining the inexplicable.

And... honestly, I'm not trying to say my way is the best or only way. Whatever gives one the peace they seek is their right way.

I agree wholeheartedly, but would add that , IMO, some choices, beliefs, and lifestyles bring greater health, well being, prosperity of body and spirit/mind, and happiness, than others, whoever you are. This is clearly observable as you watch humans go about their daily lives.

It is sad to watch people in pain, and living half a life, as so many modern human beings are, scoff at a truth which could transform and empower their lives.

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XenoFish

I agree wholeheartedly, but would add that , IMO, some choices, beliefs, and lifestyles bring greater health, well being, prosperity of body and spirit/mind, and happiness, than others, whoever you are. This is clearly observable as you watch humans go about their daily lives.

It is sad to watch people in pain, and living half a life, as so many modern human beings are, scoff at a truth which could transform and empower their lives.

Truth? No more truth than any other belief system. All just opinions on what they think is "real".

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robinrenee

I thought church folks also say; " Brother ! Throw away those crutches and walk ! "

That's what they say, for sure. However, I've never been to one of them there healing services. :unsure2:

If the paralysis has a psychological basis, then Brother just might be able to throw away those crutches and walk. But the overwhelming vast majority of paralysis wasting diseases ... I don't think God breaks His laws of nature. If those neurological pathways are broken... they going to stay broken ... unless some medical advances and rehab put them back together again... which does happen. Modern medicine is amazing.

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Paranoid Android

And their parents didnt even know that was happening !

I hate to say it, but I say this is 99% likely to be the fault of the parents. The parents didn't know or care enough about their children's education that they knowingly and willingly enrolled them in scripture classes without thinking about what those scripture classes actually taught, and then didn't care enough to talk to their kids about their day at school to know what they were being taught at school during the day.

The other 1% possibility is that they weren't enrolled in scripture, and the scripture teacher came out of the blue and attempted to preach to the kids at other times during the day (at lunch, for example, in the playground). Since I have been involved in schools for several years and have never seen a scripture teacher attempt to teach scripture outside of scripture class times, I find this answer unlikely.

So if you're looking for outrage about what kids are learning during scripture in school, you won't find it from me (even though I don't personally believe in eternal torment in hell and therefore would never teach it to my kids).

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back to earth

I agree wholeheartedly, but would add that , IMO, some choices, beliefs, and lifestyles bring greater health, well being, prosperity of body and spirit/mind, and happiness, than others, whoever you are. This is clearly observable as you watch humans go about their daily lives.

It is sad to watch people in pain, and living half a life, as so many modern human beings are, scoff at a truth which could transform and empower their lives.

Apparently it spins off onto your car as well ... the Christian car mechanic in town suggested my car would have less troubles if I 'surrendered to jesus'

Funny thing was - I decided he was an idiot and changed mechanics .... they fixed what he had messed up and no more car problems

:whistle:

Edited by back to earth
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back to earth

I hate to say it, but I say this is 99% likely to be the fault of the parents. The parents didn't know or care enough about their children's education that they knowingly and willingly enrolled them in scripture classes without thinking about what those scripture classes actually taught, and then didn't care enough to talk to their kids about their day at school to know what they were being taught at school during the day.

The other 1% possibility is that they weren't enrolled in scripture, and the scripture teacher came out of the blue and attempted to preach to the kids at other times during the day (at lunch, for example, in the playground). Since I have been involved in schools for several years and have never seen a scripture teacher attempt to teach scripture outside of scripture class times, I find this answer unlikely.

So if you're looking for outrage about what kids are learning during scripture in school, you won't find it from me (even though I don't personally believe in eternal torment in hell and therefore would never teach it to my kids).

I dont expect outrage from you over any religious matter. I am glad to hear you dont teach little children about eternal torment in hell though

:tu:

I talked to the parents, they said they never gave permission nor were asked permission to have them attend scripture classes. After I told them, they told the school they do not give permission and the kids didnt have to attend anymore .... then the school got rid of 'Nanna' (as she got the kids to call her ).

Worse at the local high school, the kids were invited to attend an after school ( right after ) meeting in the auditorium , supposedly about 'vocational guidance' , from some outside group. When they were all in, the 'attendants' locked the doors and said no one could leave. Then they asked all the kids in the room that were Christian to put up their hands. The others were then asked to come up on stage where they were questioned. One walked out, got to the door and was stopped, he said if they didnt let him out he would ring his parents and the police, so they let him go , then the others left ... some stayed , dont know what happened after that.

I guess you will not believe me though . This school (state school) also gave , up on stage, in front of the whole school, along with the yearly awards , an award to the 'most likely not to succeed'

:no:

I know about this as they tried to convince a friend of mines daughter to accept it , she told them to **** off , so they picked some other girl. I heard she went up sheepishly on stage in front of the school to accept it and they clapped and laughed at her.

I also personally knew this headmaster , I was a friend of his wife .... she left him not long after that .

Edited by back to earth

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robinrenee

I'm sorry, robin, but I don't think so. We are all different, and how we all see things, is different. I might feel that way, but that is me, as someone who sees things and is an Atheist and is just fine as well.

I think, what would probably be a smooth road for all of us, and see how each of us deal with it, on our own, with what we have or don't have, ( and are still fine with that) and be happy for each other. I think if someone sees a fault in someone else, is probably not realizing a fault in their own world and doesn't realize it.

I don't think, God, Goddess, a higher power, really wants others to be lectured or pushed around into thinking they are nothing unless they do something someone else says. I would think, if there are such things, they would want all of us to be happy in which we have already, whether it's also includes guidance to what they themselves perceive on their own, or guidance from someone or somewhere else.

I just think lecturing doesn't help.

Yes, our different-ness makes for a wonderful world,

Mr. Walker's "sermon" reminded me of many of the ones that I heard in my youth. I like Mr. Walker, and I like much of what he says.

The only problem is that his posts are usually quite long and with my poor vision, my eyes are usually tearing up so badly that I can't finish the post.

I think we all have good things to contribute to the discussion. I enjoy hearing what others believe. It widens my horizons. :-*

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back to earth

yeah ... I know what you mean , I often give up before I get to the end to ... hurts my eyes as well ....

maybe we could install one of these in the thread ?

office-5a.jpg

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Mr Walker
quote name='Sherapy' timestamp='1451333839' post='5726829'

Okay, Let's assume this is true:

Your premise was God has made you the better person you are today by donating over a million dollars of your pay, etc,etc. while leaving you to live at the poverty line after 45 years of working, you think this is a value worth recommending and a god worth worshipping and you go as far as to conclude I will be better off then I currently am on my Athiestic path

No. You see that is YOUR assumption. God didn't make me better but my relationship with him and my understanding of the connection between me, god and all humanity, motivated me to help others. Second i clearly said we are RICH. There is no poverty in our lives. We live as we chose to live, not forced by circumstances We get all we need to supply EVERY need in our lives We dont indulge don't waste and dont spend on things we dont need, but still we are rich. even by Australian standards.

.

My counter is this: this is not a value or a god I find redeeming to give away money to be left to struggle to make ends meet, having to garden to eat, and wear second hand clothes, ( in my case I would become a burden to my own children, forcing them to be responsible for me when I should have planned for my care myself).

Again you didn't read what i said. God requires us to look after and provide for ourselves first. If we are strong and well off, then we can do more for others i garden for fitness and mental health and the fresh organically grown food. It is environmentally sustainable and I dont have to buy food from a continent away. I get to give a lot away to neighbours and the elderly. It would probably be cheaper just to buy food from the supermarket given our water bill but no where nears as healthy,satisfying or ecologically sustainble.

You are an old man, who has already had heart surgery, how will you do all this, and care for an Alzheimer's patient ( do you really know how hard that is at your age/ a care giver is out , by your own choice) and then the alternate plan is to consider euthanasia( eeks) for your wife ( even when this means going to jail ) in the event, her Alzheimer's makes her lose her ability to beleive in God ( not believing in God might not be the worst thing from where I sit).

Again your own values are so different, you cant comprehend mine I am not old, only middle aged. :whistle: my cholesterol is under 3, my blood pressure 120/70 and my sugar under 5 I have already cared for TWO altzheimers patients in their nineties for 6 years . You get some help, and also a carer's pension to assist. You get things like aids and improvements for your home, and some respite care when needed. As with my wife's parents, NOT caring for a loved one is simply not an option to be considered. That is the meaning of love.

It is my wife's plan to die if she becomes dependent and helpless not mine she might just need some help. I am philosophically in favour of any adults right to die, if they are informed and mentally competent. She probably would want this even if she was an atheist, given her fierce independence .

An all " benevolent " god would have encouraged you to save the money you gave away, in the event, this might be the case, ( and with your superhuman powers and ability to predict things, time travel etc. /this is gods best plan for you) ( ouch) and your own personal experience with her family history of Alzheimer's, and caring for family members.

You see this reflects YOUR values. Even as an atheist and secular humanist i recognised my responsibility to do all i could for others . I dont need more money, either to care for my wife or to put her into a home if that was an alternative. I have a good superannuation, we own our house, and Australia has an excellent health care system which supports the elderly very well. There are at least half a dozen excellent facilities within 60 ks of our home, including several in our small town, where she could be cared for, all paid for from her aged pension. She would not want me spending a lot of money on her when i could spend it on people and animals who had a REAL need.

That you did not challenge ([ God] about adopting this value as you do everything else) and instead offer him a counter of how about if I set up a fund to give what ever remains to charity shows me you didn't think this through and that you make rash decisions for yourself, therefore, not to take your advice.

Misapprehension or mis comprehension We are rich. We have the abilty to care for ourselves out of our ow finances and the govt does an excellent job of supporting people like us with care in home and facilities. . So why put aside money when it is not required. That is what a superannuation policy, insurance and the aged pension is for. We get all medical care free ( I just took my wife for her monthly podiatry appointment and last week we both had full vision checks all free. ) and the most we pay for medicines is under $5 per script.

Not only are these poorly thought out values, and horrible advice from God, but then to recommend them to me and try and encourage me not question these values as a mature adult, regardless, of the source is foolhardy, amoral, and irresponsible.

Which values? Living less materialistically and not wasting resources? Buying only what you need? Being environmentally responsible? Planning for your life and outcomes ? Caring as much for others as you do for yourselves?

Giving what you don't need to those who do need it ?

Terrible are they? . How sad that you see it so. And as anyone who lives like this will tell you, no matter how much you give away after providing your own needs, more is given to you, and your life becomes richer in every way. For example we gave away $50 each to two young people in fairly desperate straits last week. This week someone gave us $100 out of the blue as a gift

Edited by Mr Walker

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Paranoid Android

I talked to the parents, they said they never gave permission nor were asked permission to have them attend scripture classes.

Scripture classes in Australia universally need the parent or guardian to "opt in", if there is no opt in process then having scripture is illegal in that school.

Worse at the local high school, the kids were invited to attend an after school ( right after ) meeting in the auditorium , supposedly about 'vocational guidance' , from some outside group. When they were all in, the 'attendants' locked the doors and said no one could leave.

Again, this is illegal.

I guess you will not believe me though .

It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that your descriptions are nothing like any state school I have ever worked at, and knowing the laws in Australia what you describe is illegal and would never be tolerated. The worst I've ever experienced, and it seriously is the worst because it seriously shocked me that they did it, was one state primary school I worked at recited the Lord's Prayer during their Monday weekly assembly. I didn't think that was appropriate, but then I found out later that pretty much every student at the school had a religious upbringing, only one student opted out of assembly because his family wasn't religious. I still don't think it was right, but at least the context allows me to understand it better.

This school (state school) also gave , up on stage, in front of the whole school, along with the yearly awards , an award to the 'most likely not to succeed'

Well that's just wrong. At my Year 12 Formal I was awarded the "most likely to be abducted by aliens" award (or was it "most likely to be rejected by aliens", I can't recall now as I think back) but it was all fun and games organised by the student body rather than an actual teachers award. Whoever decided that someone should receive a "most likely not to succeed" award needs their pedagogy examined.
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back to earth

Well, when I went to school ( the first one) , they did heaps of illegal stuff to kids. The second one was a state school , I couldnt believe it, the English teacher was actually nice to me and made friends and started teaching me stuff ! :yes: They had science labs .... wood and metal work , various sports .... even girls there ! :w00t:

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back to earth

I dont think it is legal, either , for a teacher to make the class all throw their lunch out the window as a punishment , and keep them all locked into the same room with him from 11 am until after school finished ... way after ... until the police came and some of the fathers and a policeman broke down the door .

Then teacher went 'away' for a 'long holiday'.

remember this guy ? (he was a 'good crazy' teacher ) ;

hqdefault.jpg

'Why is it so, young Mr Android ? "

Edited by back to earth

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Stubbly_Dooright

I was taught, and I believe, that the love of God is showered on ALL mankind. To me the difference is that when one "falls in love" with God, our own spirit opens a conduit through which we are able to feel and experience God's love. That's just my way of explaining the inexplicable.

And... honestly, I'm not trying to say my way is the best or only way. Whatever gives one the peace they seek is their right way.

I think that's cool, your last line. :)

but, if you were taught that the love of God is showered on all mankind, are then taught how there is proof that this done?

Yes, our different-ness makes for a wonderful world,

Mr. Walker's "sermon" reminded me of many of the ones that I heard in my youth. I like Mr. Walker, and I like much of what he says.

The only problem is that his posts are usually quite long and with my poor vision, my eyes are usually tearing up so badly that I can't finish the post.

I think we all have good things to contribute to the discussion. I enjoy hearing what others believe. It widens my horizons. :-*

I think, you as a poster, have been a part of that contribution, alone with many others here. I'm glad you feel that way about everyone contributing and learning from others. I feel that way too. :yes: I use to read and consider some one here, and try my hardest to see their point, ( I couldn't, it comes across very insulting and denigrating, ) and I don't think it's healthy to have to agree to something you don't agree with all the time to appeal to one particular person. When someone is stubborn in actually thinking that what others have to say is just as important, that someone to me, gets ignored. I tried, and I now see it's useless.

I'm glad you get a nostalgic feeling, and it brings you back to your church days. Since I never went, I wouldn't know. *shrugs*

But, there are different worlds outside of church, as I know you know, and that is considered too.

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