+Paranoid Android Posted April 11, 2015 #76 Share Posted April 11, 2015 I've never noticed that before. Do you know what book and chapter it is? I've looked through the Crucifixion parts of the NIV Bible and don't see a boy mentioned in any of the four Gospel accounts.It's not the crucifixion, it's the arrest of Jesus in Mark 14:51-52 - "A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind".It was fairly common at the time Mark was written for witnesses to an event who wrote something down about it to somehow anonymously insert themselves into the narrative. There is some speculation (which I may or may not agree with) that the young man who fled naked here is actually Mark himself. As Mark was written about 40 years after the events, that makes the author of Mark (if it is indeed him) around 55 years old, ancient by their standards of the day, but not an impossibly old figure. It's just a thought 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Paranoid Android Posted April 11, 2015 #77 Share Posted April 11, 2015 (edited) When Jesus is arrested a Boy runs away losing his Linen thus fleeing naked.When the Women enter the Tomb a young Man in Linen tells them Jesus is not here. This is metaphor for stripping the Flesh and being reborn in new Flesh.The first Gospel Mark is a giant Parable and the other later Gospels put their own spin on it.The Gospels layer stories artisticly and a learned (ancient Greek Schooled) reader would never see the Gospels as history. One tiny flaw in your argument here, Davros. The man who greeted the women at the tomb was not wearing linen. The man who fled in Mark 14 was wearing the Greek term sin-don, the man at the tomb was wearing stolay leukos. The first is a fabric type (not necessarily "linen" either, but the English translators chose that particular cloth to use), the other is a long garment that is white in colour (source - my Greek dictionary that I have on my home laptop). The fabric used in the long white garment is never provided by the text.Arbitrarily assigning the same fabric to the stolay leukos as what the young man was wearing does not a metaphor therefore make. Edited April 11, 2015 by Paranoid Android Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetoroam Posted April 11, 2015 #78 Share Posted April 11, 2015 I heard an Historian say that Joseph of Arimathea is a pun for aristos mathetes meaning "best disciple" in Greek.There's no Town of Arimathea in ancient times that I know of? I got that from this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Arimathea Arimathea (Ancient Greek: Ἁριμαθαία), according to the Gospel of Luke (xxiii. 51), was "a city of Judea". It was reportedly the home town of Joseph of Arimathea, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arimathea But as I said earlier. there are so many different stories and contradictions and thats why I added "hearsay". BUT its the similar to Jesus, he would not have been known by that name, so its been tweeked , nothing new there.: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted April 11, 2015 #79 Share Posted April 11, 2015 http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/joseph-of-arimathea-faq.htm I can believe that Joseph of Arimathea was Jesus`s uncle, only someone related would have had the permission to take his body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud the mackem Posted April 11, 2015 #80 Share Posted April 11, 2015 That was John Mark Jesus`s cousin the beloved ,who wrote the gospel of Mark.The only disciple at Jesus`s crucifixion. What about Peter who Jesus called 3 times to come forward ,when he was on the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted April 11, 2015 #81 Share Posted April 11, 2015 One tiny flaw in your argument here, Davros. The man who greeted the women at the tomb was not wearing linen. The man who fled in Mark 14 was wearing the Greek term sin-don, the man at the tomb was wearing stolay leukos. The first is a fabric type (not necessarily "linen" either, but the English translators chose that particular cloth to use), the other is a long garment that is white in colour (source - my Greek dictionary that I have on my home laptop). The fabric used in the long white garment is never provided by the text. Arbitrarily assigning the same fabric to the stolay leukos as what the young man was wearing does not a metaphor therefore make. I was giving a quick synopsis. The naked Flesh is corrupt but through Christ a new Flesh is given hence the young Man in a Robe. Mark 14:51-52 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+14&version=YLT Mark 16:5-6 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16&version=YLT 1 corinthians 15:42-57 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+corinthians+15&version=YLT The Gospels are riddled with this ancient artistic literary tradition and reflect missionary work rather than history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted April 12, 2015 #82 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I got that from this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Arimathea Arimathea (Ancient Greek: Ἁριμaθaίa), according to the Gospel of Luke (xxiii. 51), was "a city of Judea". It was reportedly the home town of Joseph of Arimathea, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arimathea But as I said earlier. there are so many different stories and contradictions and thats why I added "hearsay". BUT its the similar to Jesus, he would not have been known by that name, so its been tweeked , nothing new there.: Since you are using Wiki: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arimathea Either a "Pun" or mistranslation? Scooby Doo where are you? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afterkeys Posted April 12, 2015 #83 Share Posted April 12, 2015 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted April 12, 2015 #84 Share Posted April 12, 2015 What about Peter who Jesus called 3 times to come forward ,when he was on the cross. Never read that, link please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted April 12, 2015 #85 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Never read that, link please. Where's your FAITH? LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted April 12, 2015 #86 Share Posted April 12, 2015 So 'lol' is what the argument has come down to, then. It always does in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted April 12, 2015 #87 Share Posted April 12, 2015 So 'lol' is what the argument has come down to, then. It always does in the end. As you stroke your Kitty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetoroam Posted April 12, 2015 #88 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Since you are using Wiki: http://en.m.wikipedi.../wiki/Arimathea Either a "Pun" or mistranslation? Scooby Doo where are you? All the different versions are confusing. I suppose a follower has a choice on which version they want to choose, but as a non follower, its a novel and there is room for part 3 now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanne dArc Posted April 12, 2015 #89 Share Posted April 12, 2015 (edited) Since you are using Wiki: http://en.m.wikipedi.../wiki/Arimathea Either a "Pun" or mistranslation? Scooby Doo where are you? Davros, I've heard a hypothesis that Ioseph hArimathaias was a corruption or a pun on Iosepos Matthias: Josephus, son of Matthias. That is to say: Flavius Josephus, son of Matthias (whom his son praised abundantly in his works). It's clearly not an exact copy or anything, but it's noteworthy that h'rj in old Syro-Aramaic dialect means roughly "the son of": Iosepos hAri-Matthias could conceivably be rendered as Joseph, the son of Matthias, who is Flavius Josephus. Luke is the only gospel that attempts to say that Arimathea was a town in Judea -- the others can be ambiguously read with Arimathea as either a place or a name. Luke clearly attempted to explain or otherwise rewrite large portions of the earlier gospels: Luke trying to say that Arimathea was simply a town nobody had ever heard of sounds very much like him. I know you're familiar with Carrier, and I believe one of his more recent lectures mentioned this fun little connection. It may just be a coincidence, but wouldn't it be funny if the gospels had literally tried to cleverly slip in Josephus as a minor character? -- or perhaps at least made a character loosely inspired by or named after him? Edited April 12, 2015 by Jeanne dArc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud the mackem Posted April 12, 2015 #90 Share Posted April 12, 2015 All PMSL aside, logically its true. there is a book called A History of the World in 10½ Chapters is a novel by Julian Barnes, he does the same kind of thing about Noahs ark. I can understand the "beliefs" when it is to ease the loss of loved ones and if someone can find some peace believing in a "helping hand" with their emotions, then that is reason enough to follow, but today we have a much better understanding of how things work, so when it comes to the bible and certain stories in it, i find it hard to not see it as any thing else but: a collection of stories.....the message it authors are trying to send out or not much different than fables. I fail to see how a bunch of Jesus' s fishermen mates who probably never went to school , can suddenly become authorised gospel writers.If they told their stories to Scribes the truth would become distorted as the Scribe would add his two pennies worth and the story teller wouldn't know the difference not being able to read, and the along comes the translator who adds his two pennies worth,and so on . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted April 12, 2015 #91 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Davros, I've heard a hypothesis that Ioseph hArimathaias was a corruption or a pun on Iosepos Matthias: Josephus, son of Matthias. That is to say: Flavius Josephus, son of Matthias (whom his son praised abundantly in his works). It's clearly not an exact copy or anything, but it's noteworthy that h'rj in old Syro-Aramaic dialect means roughly "the son of": Iosepos hAri-Matthias could conceivably be rendered as Joseph, the son of Matthias, who is Flavius Josephus. Luke is the only gospel that attempts to say that Arimathea was a town in Judea -- the others can be ambiguously read with Arimathea as either a place or a name. Luke clearly attempted to explain or otherwise rewrite large portions of the earlier gospels: Luke trying to say that Arimathea was simply a town nobody had ever heard of sounds very much like him. I know you're familiar with Carrier, and I believe one of his more recent lectures mentioned this fun little connection. It may just be a coincidence, but wouldn't it be funny if the gospels had literally tried to cleverly slip in Josephus as a minor character? -- or perhaps at least made a character loosely inspired by or named after him? That's the first I heard of that.Are you sure you're not slipping in the crank Atwill's territory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanne dArc Posted April 12, 2015 #92 Share Posted April 12, 2015 That's the first I heard of that.Are you sure you're not slipping in the crank Atwill's territory? Never heard of him, haha Carrier also speculated a different etymology for Arimathea elsewhere that seems plausible: I'll try to find the lecture where he linked it to Josephus though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanne dArc Posted April 12, 2015 #93 Share Posted April 12, 2015 It might be this one (I don't have time to watch the whole thing again right now), but I seem to remember he was in a different building when talking about Josephus, so I'll keep looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanne dArc Posted April 12, 2015 #94 Share Posted April 12, 2015 (edited) Ah, I think this may be the one. Also keep in mind that I don't recall if Carrier's hypotheses about Josephus/Joseph were exactly the same as what I mentioned, I was just trying to recall what he'd said and drew also from my own knowledge and studies of the New Testament documents and their languages. But yeah, here's this Edited April 12, 2015 by Jeanne dArc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted April 12, 2015 #95 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I fail to see how a bunch of Jesus' s fishermen mates who probably never went to school , can suddenly become authorised gospel writers.If they told their stories to Scribes the truth would become distorted as the Scribe would add his two pennies worth and the story teller wouldn't know the difference not being able to read, and the along comes the translator who adds his two pennies worth,and so on . The gospel of Mark would have been written in his later years, perhaps as the younger disciple he learn how to write in those later years, while most of the other gospels were written by scribes as in the telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted April 12, 2015 #96 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Imaginarynumber1, on 09 April 2015 - 08:36 PM, said:Were they fooled, or did they all ascend into heaven? I guess we'll never know.... Just like all those people that got to rid on the ufo behind the comet. I am sticking with......they were fooled, that way I am certain no Jim Jones type could ever fool me. Ah yes, the comet riders....its quite scary really that the human mind can be so "delicate". Well, I have found it's usually the mental and emotional vulnerable who are preyed upon to join someone's cult. I am also thinking about David Koresh's Waco cult too on that. Even though how they met their deaths was different. Going back to the point of the two posts, I agree to the point, yes people were fooled, and I think that will always be evident. Kind of my point of who ends up getting preyed upon and thus joining such cults. But that would be on my mind, like the UFO cultist and such. Did they make it? Of course, in this life, we will never know. It makes me wonder, Nichelle Nichols, (the original Lt. Uhura: Star Trek) had a brother in that cult. I actually saw her at one convention I went to. She always seemed so sure, so kind, and so grounded. What prompted her brother, who I would have hoped was in the same mind( I know, I know, doesn't always mean that) do that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shibolet Posted April 16, 2015 #97 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Oh dear, looks like it could be back to the drawing board. What about his resurrection from the tomb...and Jesus knows "excuse the pun" all the other bits in the novel about him, does it mention his "son" in there? But saying that, chemical tests on what? if they did not have his DNA are anything from him in the first place, then what good are chemical tests? what do they compare it with. Maybe everything will be explained in the film, i take it Mr Simha Jacobovici is sorting something out on that side? Resurrection was not the option because Jesus was a Jewish man whose Faith was Judaism and, according to Prophet Isaiah in 26:14, II Samuel 12:23 and Job 10:21, once dead no one can ever return from the grave. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetoroam Posted April 16, 2015 #98 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Resurrection was not the option because Jesus was a Jewish man whose Faith was Judaism and, according to Prophet Isaiah in 26:14, II Samuel 12:23 and Job 10:21, once dead no one can ever return from the grave. I am not knowledgeable on the - what the prophets said or wrote, but am aware Yeshua was Jewish and do not believe, that anyone can return from the grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanne dArc Posted April 16, 2015 #99 Share Posted April 16, 2015 The gospel of Mark would have been written in his later years, perhaps as the younger disciple he learn how to write in those later years, while most of the other gospels were written by scribes as in the telling. What evidence do you have for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted April 17, 2015 #100 Share Posted April 17, 2015 What evidence do you have for that? None, but what the physic Cayce had said that John Mark wrote many letters about Jesus but were lost, however one survived he wrote at the age of fifty nine that made the Bible . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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