Sainthood bid for Titanic priest

[regeneratia]

I think this act would cheapen sainthood. It would render all other saints to a lower level of respect.

[thedemon]

Why must we be so politically correct concerning this man. I'm far from religious, an atheist in all aspects. But prayer has a way of comforting those who believe and he stayed behind to do just that. I say, considering he was one of their own, deserves the title.

Why not? Who would have issues with this? I say it was a courageous and honorable thing to do. I don't know many people in this forum, or in RL who would have had the balls to stay aboard a sinking vessel, facing a 'certain death', to help others. Kudos to this guy.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Hmm, sorry to say this, but is this not a prime example that praying to god is useless.

Depends on what you expect from it. They were about to die, instead of crying hysterically and panicking and despising the situation they were instead comforted in peace, their last moment on earth a moment to treasure. If you ask me, that's not useless at all.

Of course if you're expectation of prayer is miraculously delivered from certain death then that's a different story. Christians who pray don't have that expectation though, not in a situation like the Titanic.

i am sure there were a few heroic men on board that ship, but out of respect for all those who died = NO ONE should be singled out as a "saint". ALL were equal!

Yes, but only the priest refused twice a position on the boat. The Captain, by maritime law is the last one off. He had to stay (the captain of the cruise ship, name which I forget, who abandoned ship is facing prison for being just about the first off, not mention being branded a coward). Was the band offered a place on the lifeboat? I don't know. What I do know is that the priest turned down two chances to escape in order to comfort those in need.

Should he be given sainthood? I don't care, I'm not Catholic. I believe all Christians are saints. The dead are the dead, they have no power in my opinion. But there are those who do believe in the intercession of the Saints and this guy is as good a choice as any, if he meets the criteria of the Catholic Church.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Paranoid Android

[coolguy]

That would be cool if they made him a saint

[freetoroam]

Depends on what you expect from it. They were about to die, instead of crying hysterically and panicking and despising the situation they were instead comforted in peace, their last moment on earth a moment to treasure. If you ask me, that's not useless at all.

Of course if you're expectation of prayer is miraculously delivered from certain death then that's a different story. Christians who pray don't have that expectation though, not in a situation like the Titanic.

Yes, but only the priest refused twice a position on the boat. The Captain, by maritime law is the last one off. He had to stay (the captain of the cruise ship, name which I forget, who abandoned ship is facing prison for being just about the first off, not mention being branded a coward). Was the band offered a place on the lifeboat? I don't know. What I do know is that the priest turned down two chances to escape in order to comfort those in need.

Should he be given sainthood? I don't care, I'm not Catholic. I believe all Christians are saints. The dead are the dead, they have no power in my opinion. But there are those who do believe in the intercession of the Saints and this guy is as good a choice as any, if he meets the criteria of the Catholic Church.

I understand what you are saying, and respect what the religious "expect" from their prayers, but my point was really this; we do not know how many gave up their positions, we do not know how many would have given up their position if offered one, because many were not given that opportunity, I just find it hard to accept one man should be singled out for giving comfort in such a fatally traumatic time, do you really have to have a religious title to be recognized as doing good?

Sorry, but i feel for ALL those who perished that night, no matter what religion, if any, ...it is hard to believe that only one man would have given comfort and for that reason find it quite "disrespectful and prejudice" against all those who "may" have also sacrificed their lives for others and who "may" have also comforted their fellow man.

Please do not get me wrong, I have nothing against religious beliefs, I just find the Catholic church as being biased and the Titanic is no place to create a split among the dead = ALL ARE EQUAL.

[Lenore Graves]

So because he was a good person and died helping people, he deserves to be a saint? Helping people is not a miracle. If everyone who died helping people became Saints, we'd have a whole lotta saints out there!

[Stubbly_Dooright]

yeah

but he didnt "kill himself"

I think that's a good point. He went down bravely being there for others.

A situation like that would certainly be traumatic, I actually find it quite disrespectful that because of one mans religious standing, that he would be credited for giving comfort, when in that kind of situation, you do not need to be religious to be given comfort when it is obvious you are going to die. I imagine many were comforting each other at the time.

Yes, those who were religious would have prayed, but the Father would not have had the time to "comfort" them all, others would have been doing that...hence why i can not see why one man (again) because of his religious standing, be considered for sainthood....I do not think he would have done anything different than many others who perished that night.

And I agree with you. I feel though, (and this is me raised secular) who felt the sacrificing manner and giving he did give was heroic in my thoughts. You're right as well, he didn't help all, and there were others who also did their own sacrificing to give others a chance at life. I think who ever released the cages of dogs probably went down with the ship. I have read countless books and passages, (I don't know if anyone realize I'm a Titanic buff) of those who died for others to live, or atleast gave them comfort while they themselves were freightnend.

I was responding to one sentence in your post.

Hmm, sorry to say this, but is this not a prime example that praying to god is useless.

i am sure there were a few heroic men on board that ship, but out of respect for all those who died = NO ONE should be singled out as a "saint". ALL were equal!

I was wondering if you meant they were praying to god to save them, when I think they were praying for them to feel at peace, and that the father was there to do that for them.

Why must we be so politically correct concerning this man. I'm far from religious, an atheist in all aspects. But prayer has a way of comforting those who believe and he stayed behind to do just that. I say, considering he was one of their own, deserves the title.

Why not? Who would have issues with this? I say it was a courageous and honorable thing to do. I don't know many people in this forum, or in RL who would have had the balls to stay aboard a sinking vessel, facing a 'certain death', to help others. Kudos to this guy.

Exactly my feelings.

I understand what you are saying, and respect what the religious "expect" from their prayers, but my point was really this; we do not know how many gave up their positions, we do not know how many would have given up their position if offered one, because many were not given that opportunity, I just find it hard to accept one man should be singled out for giving comfort in such a fatally traumatic time, do you really have to have a religious title to be recognized as doing good?

Sorry, but i feel for ALL those who perished that night, no matter what religion, if any, ...it is hard to believe that only one man would have given comfort and for that reason find it quite "disrespectful and prejudice" against all those who "may" have also sacrificed their lives for others and who "may" have also comforted their fellow man.

Please do not get me wrong, I have nothing against religious beliefs, I just find the Catholic church as being biased and the Titanic is no place to create a split among the dead = ALL ARE EQUAL.

Trust me, I understand your points. I think someone here mentioned the band, in which I feel they also did the same thing. They were lost, and yet in the face of their demise, they also gave comfort in the best way they could. In fact, wasn't it when their leader said that they all behaved honorably and had the right to go save themselves, and yet they stayed and played on? I do believe that the band has also gone down in history of brave souls who were honored. It's not like everyone else is like Ismay? I'm sure we all know how Ismay ended up for his actions?

So because he was a good person and died helping people, he deserves to be a saint? Helping people is not a miracle. If everyone who died helping people became Saints, we'd have a whole lotta saints out there!

Yeah, I know. I was wondering, why and why now? Then again, I'm not totally educated in this belief. Edited April 14, 2015 by Stubbly_Dooright

[freetoroam]

So because he was a good person and died helping people, he deserves to be a saint? Helping people is not a miracle. If everyone who died helping people became Saints, we'd have a whole lotta saints out there!

I think its a catholic thing, which is fine, each to his own, but here we are not talking about one mans "sacrifice" or heroism, we are talking about many, hence why I think they should not be singling out just one, he surely was not the only catholic on board.

[White Crane Feather]

Hmm, sorry to say this, but is this not a prime example that praying to god is useless.

i am sure there were a few heroic men on board that ship, but out of respect for all those who died = NO ONE should be singled out as a "saint". ALL were equal!

He was probably not praying for deliverance catholic priests focus on the soul.... Usually. There is nothing wrong with his peers singling out his sacrifice for his spiritual faith. I'm sure there were other heros on board the titanic aswell.

[Calibeliever]

He sounds like a remarkable man. Whether or not he's canonized, it's good that his story is remembered and is being told. Sometimes we are at our best when things are at their worst. This man risked his own safety to comfort others and whether you're religious or not, that deserves a nod. Good on him.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

I think its a catholic thing, which is fine, each to his own, but here we are not talking about one mans "sacrifice" or heroism, we are talking about many, hence why I think they should not be singling out just one, he surely was not the only catholic on board.

I don't think he is being singled out, but I do feel he was one of the many that survivors remember, because of what he did and what he did not take when given the chance. Like the same thing with the band, and the others who died trying to save others. There were probably more too, but because of the chaos, there was only what was going on at the moment and probably not on so many minds to record other's actions.

[freetoroam]

I don't think he is being singled out, but I do feel he was one of the many that survivors remember, because of what he did and what he did not take when given the chance. Like the same thing with the band, and the others who died trying to save others. There were probably more too, but because of the chaos, there was only what was going on at the moment and probably not on so many minds to record other's actions.

Because of the chaos i doubt one man stood out above others who did the same thing....really i do not mean to sound disrespectful to the Father, i give him as much credit for his bravery as I do to the others, I think it the fact that the church do not.

i actually wonder if the Father would welcome a sainthood or be humble enough to admit he did no different from his fellow man and that remembering them all would suffice?

As pointed out he deserves a "nod", but so do all those who gave comfort.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Because of the chaos i doubt one man stood out above others who did the same thing....really i do not mean to sound disrespectful to the Father, i give him as much credit for his bravery as I do to the others, I think it the fact that the church do not.

i actually wonder if the Father would welcome a sainthood or be humble enough to admit he did no different from his fellow man and that remembering them all would suffice?

As pointed out he deserves a "nod", but so do all those who gave comfort.

I am agreeing with you. I don't know if I am having trouble communicating what I am trying to say. (I do feel that I have problems with that sometimes. *shrugs* ) Maybe I haven't fully made my thoughts known here, I can understand why the father shouldn't be made a Saint. I had no idea what was required to become one. When finding out upon reading this thread, I'm like...........uhhhhhhoooooooooohhh.

Then that is where I agree. I thought I did say that the father wasn't the only one singled out as someone who sacrificed to help. It was probably because he was on deck, where those who ended up survivors would remember him as well as the band, and other things that occurred in that chaotic moment. I know you are like the rest of us, we feel that the father deserves kudos, along with others, for his sacrifice. As opposed to Ismay, (who I think may have also contributed to the tragedy by insisting on speeding up the ship despite skilled warnings by the Captain and others) who also just strolled into an empty spot on a life boat and was saved from going down the ship. And of course that was a no no, considering the Captain and the designer of the ship did go down bravely. I just think many things were remembered strongly for some despite the chaos.

I find it interesting, even to this day, so much more would come out about the Titanic. And this is where all the survivors have long since died, from natural causes. And though, I have been getting more info about other horrific sea tragedies, and land ones too, (I had no idea about the 1917 Halifax explosion until I bought the book and met the author who wrote a historical fiction which dealt with her family and her father as a main character) And yes, the same Halifax where a lot of the victims of the Titanic were buried. But the Titanic is still a main focus here. How is it more info comes out, but it does? Apparently, more writings, like papers found at survivor's homes comes out. There are books I have read about the trial and where the California is concerned, (the ship that is rumored to have ignored Titanic's call for help), about the Carpathia, that did come to help, and that the Titanic did break in two when it went down. How is it so many believed in went down in one piece, when so many in the life boats said they saw and heard it break open? (Actually I read a theory as to why, but I digress)

I don't know, there are memories of good and sacrificial deeds and acts of cowardice. They are remembered. I just think the Father does deserve to be remembered as a hero. I do agree that maybe making him a Saint doesn't fit the periameters of it. *shrugs*

Yeah, I went on too much about the Titanic......................... I told you I was a buff!

[HollyDolly]

I thought there had to be at least one miracle while they were alive, but I guess I was wrong after reading up on the process.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Canonization

It does seem that regardless of if the person is a Martyr, he/she still needs two miracles after they are dead attributed directly to them to become a Saint. It appears there is a whole Catholic Bureaucracy involved in the several steps in the process.

Well there is. It was St.John Paul 2 who did away with the office od Devil's Advocate. This was an investigator who did research into the proposed saints background.

It was thier job to say why someone shouldn't be a saint.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Well, I am in the boat thinking that the poor father didn't really perform any miracles, but was a hero nevertheless, being there for others when the ship went down. But if we are thinking of maybe extraordinary circumstances from that event, I have read into many. Like strangers out of nowhere who throw people into life boats, to individuals having 'dreams' and decide to not go on the boat, or those who did and mentioned it to survivors. I think I read in Margaret Brown's biography that someone she knew on the ship mentioned such a dream to her. I even read that there was a rumor that a Egyptian mummy was on the boat and some are saying that is the cause of the ship going down, ( iceberg not withstanding)

[+DieChecker]

Well there is. It was St.John Paul 2 who did away with the office od Devil's Advocate. This was an investigator who did research into the proposed saints background.

It was thier job to say why someone shouldn't be a saint.

He didn't remove the office, he softened it's powers.

The office was established in 1587 during the reign of Pope Sixtus V. The first formal mention of such an officer is found in the canonization of St. Lawrence Justinian under Leo X (1513-21).[3] Pope John Paul II reduced the power and changed the role of the office in 1983.[4] This reform changed the canonization process considerably, helping John Paul II to usher in an unprecedented number of elevations: nearly 500 individuals were canonized and over 1,300 were beatified during his tenure as Pope as compared to only 98 canonizations by all his 20th-century predecessors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_advocate

So, there were nearly 500 more Saints in Pope John Paul II's time. That makes canonizing this guy seem not so significant.