BronzeAge Hall andRoyal Burial in Spain found

[The Puzzler]

Straight from Science Daily report: (late 2014)

BARCELONA, SPAIN—Science Daily reports that an audience hall has been found in the Bronze Age palace at La Almoloya, located in southeastern Spain. Archaeologists Vicente Lull, Cristina Huete, Rafael Micó, and Roberto Risch of the Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona suggest that the hall is the oldest-known building constructed specifically for political use in continental Europe. It features a ceremonial fireplace and a podium, and benches lining its walls would have seated 64 people. Other buildings at the site are well-constructed with eight to twelve rooms in each residence. Some of the stucco-covered walls were decorated with geometric and naturalistic motifs in what has been dubbed the Argaric style. A tomb discovered near the political hall contained the remains of a man and a woman, whose skull was encircled with a silver diadem. She had also been buried with four ear dilators, two of silver and two of gold. Rings, earrings, and bracelets made of silver were among the grave goods. Other items include a bronze dagger held together with silver nails, and a small ceramic cup decorated with silver rims.

http://www.archaeolo...ya-royal-burial

My recent Archaeology magazine, not that one even though I buy it too, has a main article about it all and I for one, am very taken with the whole thing having read the article in it, I haven't seen it mentioned here, did the search, and felt it led to some very interesting points.

El Argar and the newly excavated areas of La Almoloya and La Bastida are showing to be serious industrial areas, for mass metalwork, textile and cereal processing.

La Almoloya, near the village of Pliego in Murcia, they discovered a spectacular royal burial, along with evidence for one of the earliest palaces to be built in Europe. This society dominated the area then suddenly collapsed circa 1550BC, possibly due to "civil unrest".

“The hierarchy displayed (expensive gold and silver grave goods -diadem crowns, accompanying high-status individuals, including children of the aristocracy,) thus demonstrating that status was inherited. Such a hierarchy is rarely seen in Europe at the time and not seen in Southern Iberia after 1550BC until the Phoenicians show up 9^th century.”

“The defensive techniques on the fortress walls was ahead of its time and it was to be another 400-800 years before such military designs were adopted by Hittites and Mycenaeans.”

This is from magu, who knows his stuff:

One of the most relevant architectural elements discovered is the ogival

arched postern gate, or secondary door, located near the main entrance.

The arch is in very good conditions and is the first one to be found in

Prehistoric Europe. Precedents can be found in the second city of Troy

(Turkey) and in the urban world of the Middle East (Palestine, Israel

and Jordan), influenced by the civilisations of Mesopotamia and Egypt.

This indicates that people from the East participated in the

construction of the fortification. These people would have reached La

Bastida after the crisis which devastated their region 4,300 years ago.

It was not until some 400 to 800 years later that civilisations like the

Hittites and Mycenaeans, or city-states such as Ugarit, incorporated

these innovative methods into their military architecture.

https://forwhattheywereweare.wordpress.com/category/el-argar/

Trade links are mentioned here and there and the first thing that struck me was...it didn't seem rational that all these goods were only being distributed in Spain.

The thing I find the most interesting though, even though that kept me going for days - is a possible connection to Minoans being the founders of this cultural circle, which may have originally started at Los Millares and the 1550BC date for the collapse of it all.

The author mentioned here is W Sheppard Baird, who thinks outside the box:

The author discusses the archaeological evidence for an Aegean Minoan maritime colonization of southeastern Iberia. The primary causal factor for this was the development of the alloying technology of arsenical copper. The alloy's hardness and castability made the woodworking tools of the saw, bow drill, and lathe possible. These tools set the stage for the invention of the first efficiently produced planked wooden ships with keels in the Aegean that set out on voyages of exploration early in the 4th Millennia B.C. in search of the prestige metals of gold and silver resulting in the Los Millares culture in southeastern Spain

The appearance of Minoan tholoi among the Millarens is certainly more than just a curiosity. The idea of the spontaneous origination of this very unique style of funerary structure in Spain at the same time they were being built and commonly used by the Aegean Minoans on Crete is highly improbable.

Aside from their ships, the use of metals, and their Mesaran Crete funerary practices they would have used the same Neolithic agro-pastoral technological package as the indigenous Iberians. When they surveyed the river basins of Almeria in southeastern Spain they found everything they were looking for. For several centuries they probably would have been satisfied to sift the alluvial sediments for metals and established settlements in the river basin areas. Eventually, they would have moved up to the inland sources of the alluvial metals to form permanent mining settlements and that's exactly what they did. By 3200 B.C. many of the fortified towns of the Aegean Minoan colony (Los Millares culture) had been founded and all of them were directly linked to mining operations or their defense (Almizaraque - Silver, El Barranquete - Gold, El Tarajal - Gold and Silver, Los Millares - Copper, Los Pilas - Gold, etc.).

http://frontiers-of-...ization-of.html

Edited April 21, 2015 by The Puzzler

[atalante]

......

.....This is from magu, who knows his stuff:

One of the most relevant architectural elements discovered is the ogival

arched postern gate, or secondary door, located near the main entrance.

The arch is in very good conditions and is the first one to be found in

Prehistoric Europe. Precedents can be found in the second city of Troy

(Turkey) and in the urban world of the Middle East (Palestine, Israel

and Jordan), influenced by the civilisations of Mesopotamia and Egypt.

This indicates that people from the East participated in the

construction of the fortification. These people would have reached La

Bastida after the crisis which devastated their region 4,300 years ago.

It was not until some 400 to 800 years later that civilisations like the

Hittites and Mycenaeans, or city-states such as Ugarit, incorporated

these innovative methods into their military architecture.

https://forwhattheywereweare.wordpress.com/category/el-argar/

Trade links are mentioned here and there and the first thing that struck me was...it didn't seem rational that all these goods were only being distributed in Spain.

The thing I find the most interesting though, even though that kept me going for days - is a possible connection to Minoans being the founders of this cultural circle, which may have originally started at Los Millares and the 1550BC date for the collapse of it all.

.........

Puzzler,

I agree that maju "knows his stuff" (and so does W Sheperd Baird).

In regard to trade links (with the Minoan empire), the dates for the end of Al Argar culture, in Spain, are close to the time when Egypt began reporting Keftiu people in the vicinity of Crete.

Edited April 21, 2015 by atalante

[The Puzzler]

Puzzler,

I agree that maju "knows his stuff" (and so does W Sheperd Baird).

In regard to trade links (with the Minoan empire), the dates for the end of Al Argar culture, in Spain, are close to the time when Egypt began reporting Keftiu people in the vicinity of Crete.

maju yes, not magu, I think I've been on about Magy for too long in the OLB thread lol.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Harry_Dresden]

The fetal position in a womb like burial enclosure is what fascinates.

[The Puzzler]

The fetal position in a womb like burial enclosure is what fascinates.

It does. I am so taken with that image on the magazine, like in an egg. Which reminds me of another thing. Nothing with evidence, just thoughts - but Helen (of Troy) was born from an egg and the royal couple shown, she wearing a diadem (of a Queen or Princess) and he, much older, has his face on her cheek, reminded me of Helen again and her husband Menelaus, devoted to her, regardless of her actions.

~~~~

Just a bit more on the announced discovery, which is quite important archaeologically:

The discovery of gold, silver, jewels and fine wares were announced from Spain last week. The size of the royal complex testifies to the power and wealth of the Argaric Bronze Age of Southeast Iberia with connections in the Aegean, possibly Mycenaean or the late Vučedol Culture of the Northern Balkans.

The great hall or court of the palace had a podium at the fore and semi-circular seating for nobles. One of its apparent queens from this year's dig wore a silver crown in burial. (A number of Argaric queens(?) have been found with these tiara's alongside well-armed and richly adorned males)

What makes this discovery so special is that La Alomoya is now the oldest government building in the continent. Re-read that five times.

Several interesting footnotes:

Argaric Culture marks an end to Bell Beaker and Megalithic cultural influence within its region. With its growth, the Atlantic becomes increasingly isolated and dependent on Central Europe for international trade.

It is only with the end of Argar that strong pan-Atlantic trade and cultural expression is renewed with the Atlantic Bronze Age (c1300).

The rise and fall of Almeria's influence in Iberia is inversely proportional to the rise and fall of Bell Beaker.

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com.au/2014/10/government-seat-of-el-argar-discovered.html

The thing with me is that Ive been searching for some connections from Spain to the Aegean for quite some time and I believe this new unearthing can maybe give some more insight and evidence as to whether there was ancient connections, trade connections, any connections, seems so unlikely nothing was happening between these areas yet evidence is sorely lacking.

Edited April 22, 2015 by The Puzzler

[atalante]

And ecological collapse may have led to the end of Argar culture.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7093685.stm

[Harry_Dresden]

It does. I am so taken with that image on the magazine, like in an egg. Which reminds me of another thing. Nothing with evidence, just thoughts - but Helen (of Troy) was born from an egg and the royal couple shown, she wearing a diadem (of a Queen or Princess) and he, much older, has his face on her cheek, reminded me of Helen again and her husband Menelaus, devoted to her, regardless of her actions.

The Argaric tomb shows alot of similarities to the matriarchal religion's that dominated the Aegean region at that time. So i can see how it reminds you of the Trojan story.

Cheers

[The Puzzler]

The Argaric tomb shows alot of similarities to the matriarchal religion's that dominated the Aegean region at that time. So i can see how it reminds you of the Trojan story.

Cheers

This seems to be a very powerful society with Princess or Queens wearing crowns, large hall area with big seating area, major industry, which must have incorporated ships imo, picking up goods to ship around the area. Here is where it seems that contact has been made with central Aegean societies.

Yes, actually, Dardanus is a son of Electra, a daughter of Atlas who founds Dardania after a flood. Atlas is never anywhere else than where he is holding up the sky in the West and his daughters also live in the West, in a garden. Rome was then founded by a Trojan. Helen is an early Spartan in myth and Menelaus part of an important ruling family who built a Treasury for silver and similar tholos beehive and cist tombs found in Eastern Spain prior to them. Both areas remind me of it in different ways.

This place fell around 1550BC. Memories of it were lost.

My own opinion is the earthquakes that ravaged the Aegean eventually creating the Thera eruption could also have traversed through the Mediterranean fault lines and affected many other areas, even across to Spain, also causing a collapse of the internals, such as trade to the Cretan, Therans and others of the Eastern Med. creating the disruption that is the civil strife and collapse of state life and cultural downfall.

These things don't happen for nothing, something has occurred to make this whole South East area of Spain, the Argar, La Almoloya, La Bastida, Almeria, Murcia collapse at the same time another culture on the other side was collapsing. Trade with early possible Greek/Mycenaeans, Crete and the Northern Aegean region stopped so even if it wasn't geographically affected, it's whole running system collapsed. No-one went there anymore...until the Phoenicians arrived at the Pillars and went through the other side, my guess is, they already had knowledge about the place and knew what metals were there to trade and exploited this knowledge. Something had stopped people going back to Southern Spain after the whole El Argar collapse for a while, no-one settled for over 500 years and nothing has shown anything like the kinds of finds from Bronze Age Europe in terms of palatial living.

I'd find it hard to think that this culture may not have made an impact actually, on people's minds.

Edited April 24, 2015 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

And ecological collapse may have led to the end of Argar culture.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ure/7093685.stm

I agree that this seems probable. Apparently the mono-system of barley growing took it's toll with the drying climate.

Combined with the collapse of the trade system from the Eastern Mediterranean - because metals are very precious and I don't think ecology alone would make people leave such an area nor remain to have no contact with it for some time.

[Harry_Dresden]

I agree that this seems probable. Apparently the mono-system of barley growing took it's toll with the drying climate.

Combined with the collapse of the trade system from the Eastern Mediterranean - because metals are very precious and I don't think ecology alone would make people leave such an area nor remain to have no contact with it for some time.

I think you're right it stating that it would take more than a severing of trade links to collapse a civilisation such as the one in Southern Spain. But being predominately traders, the Argaric peoples loss of trade and wealth would have made controlling the natives and workers harder and uprisings more common.

[The Puzzler]

I think you're right it stating that it would take more than a severing of trade links to collapse a civilisation such as the one in Southern Spain. But being predominately traders, the Argaric peoples loss of trade and wealth would have made controlling the natives and workers harder and uprisings more common.

Yes, that's actually my position, I think it would take more than an ecological event to collapse it, the trade imo is the real factor behind it's collapse, which would have contributed to the civil strife once the economy collapsed. However that's not to say that also the ecological effects were severely felt. What I don't get though, is why no-one went back for so long.

Edited April 25, 2015 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

From W Sheppard Baird:

This presentation is based on the ideas expressed in my thesis “The Early Minoan Colonization of Spain” and discusses the evidence that directly associates the catastrophic fall of the Aegean El Argar culture in southeastern Iberia in about 1350 B.C. with the complex phenomenon known as the Sea Peoples that over the next 175 years would rain apocalyptic devastation on the entire eastern Mediterranean. Almost every culture in the eastern Mediterranean including the Hittites in Anatolia would become engulfed in destruction by 1175 B.C. Egypt would barely survive their repeated attacks but was so severely weakened it finally collapsed later during the reign of Ramesses VI (1145 – 1137 B.C.). Only the Phoenicians in the Levant were apparently spared any destruction throughout this period. The Sea Peoples' raids and invasions from the land and sea would put an end to an era, but it was immediately followed by the "Age of the Phoenicians".

Beginning with the rise of the Iberian El Argar from the ashes of the Los Millares culture this discourse hypothesizes that the peninsula was consumed in an evolving, intermittent, yet unending struggle over access to the mineral wealth of Iberia. The conflict pitted the Aegean El Argar colony with the various Beaker groups to the north and west of them. It continues with a description of how the Argaric settlements around Damiel, Spain were planned communities with highly defensible hillside villages protected by a distributed network of watchtower stone fortresses for early warning and how this same El Argar system of signaling fortresses (Motillas) began to be built on Sardinia (Nuraghes) as the conflict escalated. They would eventually grow in number to the tens of thousands and cover the entire island. It then describes the effect of the volcanic eruption of the Theran (Santorini, Greece) volcano in the Aegean, the final period of catastrophe that spawned the El Argar Diaspora from Iberia that created the Sea Peoples, and concludes with the destruction of the Bronze Age in the eastern Mediterranean.

I'll post some more as I go along.

~~~~~~

Earthquakes do occur in the area.

Archaeological excavations in the Lorca area have revealed that it has been inhabited continuously since Neolithic times, 5,500 years ago. The earliest permanent settlement is in the Guadalentín River valley, likely because of its presence of water sources, mineral resources, and lying along a natural communication route in Andalusia. On the hillside below the castle and the town archaeological digs have revealed the remains of an important population of the El Argar culture during the Bronze Age.

The town was seriously damaged by a magnitude 5.1 earthquake on 11 May 2011, killing at least nine people. The origin was so close to the surface that the magnitude was equivalent to a magnitude 8 normal earthquake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorca,_Spain

Antas though is one of the main towns associated with El Argar.

The mountains of the Filabres roll down in undulating slopes at their north eastern end and here, on a fertile plain, lies Antas. The river, now usually dry, has carved a ravine through the soft sandstone, where birds nest in the holes in the cliffs. All around Antas there are numerous large orange and lemon groves, and other fruits and vegetables are grown on this highly cultivated area.

Ancient Cartagena may have been the harbour used.

The city of Cartagena is located in the southeastern region of Spain in the Campo de Cartagena. The Cartagena region can be viewed as a great plain inclined slightly in the direction NW-SE, bordered at the north and the northwest by pre-coastal mountain ranges (Carrascoy, El Puerto, Los Villares, Columbares and Escalona), and at the south and southwest by coastal mountain ranges (El Algarrobo, La Muela, Pelayo, Gorda, La Fausilla y Minera, with its last spurs in Cape Palos). The dominant geology of the region is metamorphic (slate, marble) and sedimentary (limestone).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartagena,_Spain

Edited April 25, 2015 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Check this out, I can't believe I actually found this:

An archaeoseismological study of Tira del Lienzo (Totana, Spain) was undertaken. The site belongs to the Argar archaeological group (2200–1550 cal. B.C.; Bronze Age). It is located on the trace of the reverse left-lateral Alhama de Murcia fault (AMF) that was responsible for the 5.1 Mw 2011 Lorca earthquake. The constructive typology of the site consists of mortar-free irregular natural boulders (dry-set masonry) and differs from earlier archaeoseismological sites built on regular masonry constructions in the Betic Cordillera. Four Earthquake Archaeological Effects (EAEs) were identified as follows: (1) an apparent surface rupture (c. 18 cm left-lateral offset), (2) the differential coseismic uplift of several centimeters affecting the main building of the settlement, (3) the widespread development of fractures on the ground surface (ground cracks) in a NE-SW direction consistent with the kinematics of the AMF, and (4) fractures in boulders that constitute the remains of the dry stone walls at the site. Structural analysis of the two fracture types reveals two nearly orthogonal sets (NE-SW and NW-SE), matching the strike-slip kinematics of the AMF in the zone. Archaeoseismic evidence and related radiocarbon dates of the different building phases of the Bronze Age site indicate the probable occurrence of at least one strong seismic event (6.3–6.5 Mw; IX ESI-07) around 1550 cal. B.C., or soon after, triggering the destruction and probably the eventual abandonment of the site. We have identified an ancient lost earthquake from the Bronze Age and report the first archaeoseismological evidence of surface rupture in the Iberian Peninsula. This study also provides the first numerical data in the Totana-Alhama segment of the AMF based on the recorded archaeoseismic displacements. These data allowed us to characterize the related slip rates (0.05 mm/yr) to define the seismic potential of the analyzed fault segment of the AMF, which was poorly defined by previous seismic and geological data.

http://onlinelibrary....21505/abstract

Precisely the time of the collapse of the whole El Argar-La Almoloya-La Bastida cultural complex 1550BC they have evidence of an earthquake hitting the area. I knew it.

Edited April 25, 2015 by The Puzzler

[Harry_Dresden]

Check this out, I can't believe I actually found this:

An archaeoseismological study of Tira del Lienzo (Totana, Spain) was undertaken. The site belongs to the Argar archaeological group (2200–1550 cal. B.C.; Bronze Age). It is located on the trace of the reverse left-lateral Alhama de Murcia fault (AMF) that was responsible for the 5.1 Mw 2011 Lorca earthquake. The constructive typology of the site consists of mortar-free irregular natural boulders (dry-set masonry) and differs from earlier archaeoseismological sites built on regular masonry constructions in the Betic Cordillera. Four Earthquake Archaeological Effects (EAEs) were identified as follows: (1) an apparent surface rupture (c. 18 cm left-lateral offset), (2) the differential coseismic uplift of several centimeters affecting the main building of the settlement, (3) the widespread development of fractures on the ground surface (ground cracks) in a NE-SW direction consistent with the kinematics of the AMF, and (4) fractures in boulders that constitute the remains of the dry stone walls at the site. Structural analysis of the two fracture types reveals two nearly orthogonal sets (NE-SW and NW-SE), matching the strike-slip kinematics of the AMF in the zone. Archaeoseismic evidence and related radiocarbon dates of the different building phases of the Bronze Age site indicate the probable occurrence of at least one strong seismic event (6.3–6.5 Mw; IX ESI-07) around 1550 cal. B.C., or soon after, triggering the destruction and probably the eventual abandonment of the site. We have identified an ancient lost earthquake from the Bronze Age and report the first archaeoseismological evidence of surface rupture in the Iberian Peninsula. This study also provides the first numerical data in the Totana-Alhama segment of the AMF based on the recorded archaeoseismic displacements. These data allowed us to characterize the related slip rates (0.05 mm/yr) to define the seismic potential of the analyzed fault segment of the AMF, which was poorly defined by previous seismic and geological data.

http://onlinelibrary....21505/abstract

Precisely the time of the collapse of the whole El Argar-La Almoloya-La Bastida cultural complex 1550BC they have evidence of an earthquake hitting the area. I knew it.

Good call.

[atalante]

I agree that this seems probable. Apparently the mono-system of barley growing took it's toll with the drying climate.

Combined with the collapse of the trade system from the Eastern Mediterranean - because metals are very precious and I don't think ecology alone would make people leave such an area nor remain to have no contact with it for some time.

Here is a paper that is very thorough examination of the breakdown era of Argar culture, leading up to 1550 BC. http://www.academia....end_of_El_Argar

The paper shows that common people had a deteriorating lifestyle, working harder as the arid conditions became more severe. Ultimately, some kind of revolt occurred - and changed the burial customs, after the previous ruling class was overthrown.

The site of the 1550 BC earthquake (Tira del Lienzo) is item #9 in the map named Figure 2, in my link above. But the earthquake is probably not mentioned in the above link.

Your link about the earthquake at 1550 BC could have been the final trigger. The peasants might have refused to rebuild structures of the ruling class that had been damaged in the earthquake.

Edited April 25, 2015 by atalante

[The Puzzler]

I wanted to add some GoogleEarth screen shots but it said I couldn't use the image ext. I had, never mind, if you have GE have a look at the landscape of the whole South east from Almeria to Cartagena and Murcia.

The whole landscapes of these areas are very intriguing, northern mountains undulating down to large fertile plains that reach the sea. Mountains and rivers where precious metals abounded and business was conducted in palaces of Queens and Kings. A land of wealth, apparently struck down by a powerful earthquake as their towns were also succumbing to the tyranny of the rich wanting ever more resources. Meanwhile in the other part of town, earthquakes were also striking the heart of the ancient trade cultures of the sea, causing large scale migrations and changes, creating new beginnings of new cultures and mythologies taking lead roles, with new Gods becoming a dominant force in the Aegean. The old age was over, put to bed by the force of Poseidon's trident and the hubris of man, a new age was emerging, while a large cultural horizon, who had dealt in precious metals from the west had vanished, seemingly, at the same time.

It would make a good story.

[The Puzzler]

.

Edited April 25, 2015 by The Puzzler

[atalante]

The article about the end of Argaric culture that I linked previously ( http://www.academia....end_of_El_Argar )

says -- on the page it numbers as 289 -- that abandonment of small Argaric sites was nearly 100%, and more than 50% of the larger Argaric sites were abandonned.

Then it draws a conclusion about migration --

"the end of El Argar must have triggered off a migratory event at a scale that was unseen during the previous 600 years."

Edited April 27, 2015 by atalante

[The Puzzler]

The article about the end of Argaric culture that I linked previously ( http://www.academia....end_of_El_Argar )

says -- on the page it numbers as 289 -- that abandonment of small Argaric sites was nearly 100%, and more than 50% of the larger Argaric sites were abandonned.

Then it draws a conclusion about migration --

"the end of El Argar must have triggered off a migratory event at a scale that was unseen during the previous 600 years."

It's kind of surprising then, that nothing much is known of it all really...

That was a really good article, thanks.

Edited May 5, 2015 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

It seems through reading a lot, that they might be responsible for the emerging Mycenae dynasty. Maju seems fond of this idea and his in depth theories don't seem that invalid quite frankly. We now know the cist and pithoi tombs as well as the palace hierarchy were the earliest in Europe, including Mycenae, but excepting Crete and the building techniques seem to have come in from the near east, the huge gate and walls of the cities show similarities to Troy even, but are earlier than Mycenae.

The hill fort of Mycenae is structured just like El Argar, not at the sea, like Argos, but inland, on a hill, quite remote in fact, from other areas around them, with a treasury, of all things, which I understand is known to have stored silver, like at Troy. It seems very unlikely to me, that high culture like they are finding within the El Argar sphere was not connected to the Eastern Mediterranean. Could be, that even Hittites had a finger in the pie that lie in the West, in a Silver Age, that ended precisely the time El Argar did, 1550BC, along with a new dynasty uprising in Egypt with the expulsion of the Hyksos.

El Argar and the name Argos can both relate to the word for silver argent, which is missing from the Germanic language, which uses silver, but is relative to Latin, with Greek Argos meaning white, shining, also similar in Hittite and Sanskrit, Breton is arc'hunt. The King of Tartessos' name, mentioned by Herodotus, means silver and it's possible Agamemnons name may refer to it too, especially since he had that treasury.

Edited May 5, 2015 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I'd even go so far to say that this could be a remnant memory of the Atlantis story.

With the evidence I showed of earthquake in the main area circa 1550bc recently discovered and the abandonment of the area which may have seemed to have disappeared, with the once thriving metal trade culture dispersing itself within the Med.

It's highly likely the El Argar connected with North Africa, since ostrich shells etc are found at El Argar, so it may have been remembered as one huge realm in the West, bordering the Atlantic, because we also know that El Argar had connections more West within the area of Southern Spain and Portugal as well. It could even be, they find the main R1b lineage of the Atlantic group, comes from these people, who I'd agree came to Spain from the Caucasus across Anatolia, not farming, but metal working, just like most Westerners today, whose world is controlled by the mining of resources.

[atalante]

It seems through reading a lot, that they might be responsible for the emerging Mycenae dynasty. Maju seems fond of this idea and his in depth theories don't seem that invalid quite frankly. We now know the cist and pithoi tombs as well as the palace hierarchy were the earliest in Europe....

......It seems very unlikely to me, that high culture like they are finding within the El Argar sphere was not connected to the Eastern Mediterranean. Could be, that even Hittites had a finger in the pie that lie in the West, in a Silver Age, that ended precisely the time El Argar did, 1550BC, along with a new dynasty uprising in Egypt with the expulsion of the Hyksos.....

Puzzler,

Arrival of chariots (in the middle-Mediterranean region) may have aggravated the collapse of El Argar culture, ca 1550 BC.

The trade routes between El Argar and Crete must have included way-stations at various places across the Mediterranean sea. But suddenly the middle-Mediterranean communities became dominated by new chariot technology, ca 1550-1500 BC.

Chariots had arrived in Egypt with the Hyksos. Then the Hyksos were driven out of Egypt ca 1550-1520 BC.

And around the time when Hyksos were driven out of Egypt, I am aware of chariots suddenly appearing at 3 places in the middle-Mediterranean region.

1) The Greek myth of Hades and Proserpine is based on the god Hades introducing a chariot into Sicily, ca 1550 BC; with Demeter immediately fleeing from Sicily to Greece at that time.

2) Archaeology at Mycenae dates the introduction of chariots at Mycenae to roughly that same time. http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/chariots.htm (Intriguingly, the link says chariots did not immediately spread to Crete -- but were introduced later on Crete, coming from Mycenaeans.)

3) Rock art in north Africa begins to depict chariots at that same time.

quote from: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/research_projects/all_current_projects/african_rock_art_image_project/chariots_in_the_sahara.aspx

On average there are about 500 drawings of chariots across the Sahara, from the Fezzan in Libya through the Air of Niger into Mali and then westward to the Atlantic coast; but not all were produced by the Garamantes. It is not certain that chariots were driven along the routes where their depictions occur; remains of chariots have never been found west of the Fezzan. However, the Fezzan states were thriving trade routes and chariots are likely to have been used to transport salt, cloth, beads, and metal goods in exchange for gold, ivory, and slaves. The widespread occurrence of chariot imagery on Sahara rock outcrops has led to the proposition of 'chariot routes' linking North and west Africa. However these vehicles were not suited for long-distance transport across desert terrain; more localized use is probable, conducted through middlemen who were aware of the trade routes through the desert landscape.

endquote

[atalante]

I'd even go so far to say that this could be a remnant memory of the Atlantis story.

With the evidence I showed of earthquake in the main area circa 1550bc recently discovered and the abandonment of the area which may have seemed to have disappeared, with the once thriving metal trade culture dispersing itself within the Med.

It's highly likely the El Argar connected with North Africa, since ostrich shells etc are found at El Argar, so it may have been remembered as one huge realm in the West, bordering the Atlantic, because we also know that El Argar had connections more West within the area of Southern Spain and Portugal as well.....

Puzzler,

Middle Kingdom Egypt called it the land of Leukippe (= 'white hippopotamus') -- not the land of Atlantis/Atlas. But the location is basically the same.

Edited May 9, 2015 by atalante

[The Puzzler]

Puzzler,

Middle Kingdom Egypt called it the land of Leukippe (= 'white hippopotamus') -- not the land of Atlantis/Atlas. But the location is basically the same.

On what basis do you make that statement? Where is this information recorded thanks?

Because that is Evenors wifes name. In this mountain there dwelt one of the earth born primeval men of that country, whose name was Evenor, and he had a wife named Leucippe, and they had an only daughter who was called Cleito

[atalante]

On what basis do you make that statement? Where is this information recorded thanks?

Because that is Evenors wifes name. In this mountain there dwelt one of the earth born primeval men of that country, whose name was Evenor, and he had a wife named Leucippe, and they had an only daughter who was called Cleito

The standard Egyptian Middle Kingdom story is called Coffin Text 466, a cartographic map for Sekhet Hetep -- which contained the region called a "waterway of the White Hippopotamus (Leucippe)". The standardized version for Coffin Text 466 stated that Sekhet Hetep has dimensions of 1000 iteru long and 1000 iteru wide.

The storyline has been researched by several modern Egyptologists. Leonard Lesko categorized the versions of Coffin Text 466. And Peter Robinson has fleshed out the subtleties of meanings.

This theological concept, an afterlife for nobles of the Middle Kingdom, was squeezed into the "afterlife concept" of the Old Kingdom -- through a simple statement in Region XX of Coffin text 466, "Its length and breadth are not told to Osiris". For this statement in region XX of Coffin Text 466, see the illustration numbered 5 in http://www.academia...._Field_of_Hetep

Modern Egyptologists say the Egyptian story of Coffin Text 466 was initiated in the reign of Egypt's Mentuhotep II, by the nomarch family for Thoth's nome. For chronology (starting with Egypt's king Mentuhotep II), see the illustration numbered 2 in http://www.academia...._Field_of_Hetep

For more details about these sizes (1000 iteru long and 1000 iteru wide), and about the region named a "waterway of the White Hippopotamus (Leucippe)", see the illustrations numbered 5 and 6 in http://www.academia...._Field_of_Hetep

This Middle Kingdom concept made Sekhet Hetep huge. In the following map, I am marking the outside corners of a region 1000 iteru by 1000 iteru, presuming it extended westward from Peka (a gap in the western mountains at Abydos) http://www.darrinwar...long/?id=389317

In Plato's version, Critias 119b states that only one metropolis inside the greater empire of "Atlantis islands" is being described in great detail. For Critias, the "waterway of the White Hippopotamus" has morphed into a river basin that drains part of a "Great Plain". And the Great Plain of Atlantis is word-play that has morphed from the Egyptian word Sekhet, in the title Sekhet Hetep (= "field of peace").

The Greek name Leucippe is self-explanatory, because it is a direct translation of the Egyptian name "White Hippopotamus".

Edited May 10, 2015 by atalante