looking for ark of the covenant picture

[back to earth]

Yeah, now find out what percentage take the Exodus account seriously.

Many if the articles I have read on the actual evidence take it to be mythical.

You will have a decent number, but as mentioned above, popularity doesn't make it true.

Yes, even some Rabbis acknowledge that, one I saw that I liked (imagine the vigourous Rabbi voice and accent and gestures

"A made up story ! ? Well probably ... but it is GREAT made up story, and one that has held the Jewish people together for thousands of years, against oppression, annihilation, genocide, war, invasion .... and we are still here ! God bless that story ! "

I agree with him !

Although other Jews may not!

[ShadowSot]

Yeah, I get having a myth that keeps your people together.

But taking it as truth results in a long time war in the ME.

[back to earth]

No, popularity doesn't make it true. My response was directed more at ChaosRose's saying, "...there is no evidence of a Moses..." I think the majority of those 3.59 billion would disagree with that.

As for Moses and the exodus story, I would think most of the Jews and Moslems would believe Moses existed and that the exodus happened. Those 2 religions don't usually pick and choose what they believe and don't believe in their religions...

I don't believe the exodus story of the plagues and the Red Sea's parting happened. And perhaps Moses was known by a different name. I have heard it said that Moses is an Egyptian name meaning "son of." And that he was named Tut-Moses (Son of Thoth). I have no idea whether that is true or not. I've never researched it. Could be interesting though...

ShadowSot, you know about Egyptian history. Was there a Moses, son of Thoth, in Egypt around 1400 BC?

No, many Jews see the story as generic or symbolic.

The above quote ( and another interesting video series for you might be ) in

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyrwav-FB7L1jbOdWv3GZh0S4gkrKD_Hi

I believe there were many men like Moses and Abraham and many events like coming into Egypt and 'Exodus' , people went back and forward all the time , when drought hit and 'desert' pastures failed, they headed to the nearest green place with a water supply.

Now, put the Zoroastrian story together (and also the 'pre Zoroastrian religions' story ) with the Abraham one and you can see that any such patriarch from east of Mesopotamia migrating to the Levant might make a good model for concocting a long term family / nationalist mythos, the same as the migration stories can be 'condensed' into one account about in and out of Egypt.

{The same thing happens here ... some creation myths tell of ONE first creator woman walking out of the sea at the north, with dilly bags full of seeds and roots and a belly full of children .... but this probably happened numerous times , for a long period ... these are 'religious mythos' and can be extremely beneficial to a culture, but they need not be considered an 'historical account'. }

[back to earth]

Primate?

.... ohhhhh

Doh !

thats what I get for feeling chuffed about the previous deliberate misspelled word ... lost my concentration in self admiration

Thanks ... I changed it to primitive

[back to earth]

Yeah, I get having a myth that keeps your people together.

But taking it as truth results in a long time war in the ME.

The happy Rabbi didnt take it as truth, he seemed happy about it and his religion, and didnt seem to have to go to war with himself over it

One can ... " Mhe " <shrug> or become a fundamentalist about it .

Me ? ... Mhe .

[Jeanne dArc]

They wingtips were in the air above the mercy seat ... doesnt sound too comfy to sit on

You shall make a kapporet of pure gold, 2.5 cubits long and 1.5 cubits wide. You shall make two karubs of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the kapporet. Make one karub at one end and one karub at the other end; you shall make the karubs of one piece with the kapporet at its two ends. The karubs shall have their wings spread upward, covering the kapporet with their wings and facing one another; the faces of the karubs are to be turned toward the kapporet.

The term kapporet (kprt) is of uncertain meaning: the general idea seems to be of a throne, with the box of the "ark" beneath acting as a sort of pedestal over which the throne stood as a detachable piece. The wings of the karubs weren't in the air, they were raised up above the seat, "covering" the seat, as a sort of protection (karubs were guardian genies). As I've said before, the description sounds an awful lot like a cross between a gestatorial throne and a funerary shrine.

Maybe someone sat on the seat under the wings and 'prophesised; ... some type of temple priestess ? ... ???? ....

I think the item works fine as a ceremonial piece: an empty throne. But I suppose it wouldn't be impossible that an oracle of some sort was also involved with it. Given the fact only one person was ever allowed in there anyway, I don't think it really matters if they claimed Yahweh was invisibly sitting on the throne and talking to the high priest.

[robinrenee]

Well, as best you shouldn't: they evidently didn't. Worse yet, the original story wasn't even about the Red Sea, but the ym-swp: sea of reeds/sedge. This is not only not a sea (it's a marshland), but neither is it even a geographical location: the sea of reeds was an Egyptian mythological concept understood as a location in the afterworld, Duat (or Amenti). Aaru (the Egyptian form of the sea of reeds) was generally believed to be the "heaven" or "promised land" of the virtuous dead, the paradisiacal realm of Osiris. Perhaps the Hebraized version shown in Exodus is meant to invert this: have the realm of Osiris by split in half by Yahweh, only to have the Israelites wander in the desert for 40 years, in reversal of the wandering of the soul in the desert of Amenti (in Egyptian mythology the wandering in the desert of the afterlife happens first, on the path to Aaru; in the Hebrew version Aaru is left behind, the desert is in the middle, and the final destination is Canaan). Interestingly, Canaan in the text appears to be a Hebraized form of Aaru (the Promised Land, the final destination for the righteous, guided by their patron god; gods are guiding figures in the Egyptian version as well), though it implies that the ancients may have thought there were multiple underworlds: that the Israelites escaped from the Egyptians' netherworld and instead made their way to the Canaanite paradise.

Yes, most of the legends/myths have similar stories across cultures.

We've discussed this before: Y-chromosomal Aaron was not Aaron. Not only wasn't it a single person, but a group, and that group lived tens of the thousands of years ago.

You've got too many zeroes in there. And your understanding of the science of Aaron's DNA is wrong. Here's another website. This one has a 2 minute video.

http://www.dnalc.org/view/15095-Tracing-ancestry-of-Jewish-priests-Cohenim-Michael-Hammer.html

There was no Aaron, and there was no Moses. And no amount of faith will ever count as evidence.

Well... I don't believe in Julius Caesar... so there...

[robinrenee]

They wingtips were in the air above the mercy seat ... doesnt sound too comfy to sit on

Maybe someone sat on the seat under the wings and 'prophesised; ... some type of temple priestess ? ... ???? ....

I offer this for consideration. "The Engineer Who Said the Ark of the Covenant Was a Giant Capacitor."

http://io9.com/the-engineer-who-said-the-ark-of-the-covenant-was-a-gia-1598583115

[robinrenee]

I believe there were many men like Moses and Abraham and many events like coming into Egypt and 'Exodus' , people went back and forward all the time , when drought hit and 'desert' pastures failed, they headed to the nearest green place with a water supply.

Absolutely true!

Now, put the Zoroastrian story together (and also the 'pre Zoroastrian religions' story ) with the Abraham one and you can see that any such patriarch from east of Mesopotamia migrating to the Levant might make a good model for concocting a long term family / nationalist mythos, the same as the migration stories can be 'condensed' into one account about in and out of Egypt.

{The same thing happens here ... some creation myths tell of ONE first creator woman walking out of the sea at the north, with dilly bags full of seeds and roots and a belly full of children .... but this probably happened numerous times , for a long period ... these are 'religious mythos' and can be extremely beneficial to a culture, but they need not be considered an 'historical account'. }

I totally agree with you. And thanks for the "Saga of the Israelites" documentary link. I shall enjoy watching the series.

[robinrenee]

.... ohhhhh

Doh !

thats what I get for feeling chuffed about the previous deliberate misspelled word ... lost my concentration in self admiration

Thanks ... I changed it to primitive

ShadowSot doesn't miss much ....

[Jeanne dArc]

You've got too many zeroes in there. And your understanding of the science of Aaron's DNA is wrong. Here's another website. This one has a 2 minute video.

http://www.dnalc.org...ael-Hammer.html

Fair enough, the tens of thousands of years is probably from a more basal lineage. The common ancestors of the CMH have been dated more recently to about 4763~3616BCE: well before even the most fanciful "estimates" of Moses and Aaron's utterly hypothetical existence. As for your video, it's not only apparently quite old (outdated), but it never claims that Aaron was a real person, simply that modern Jewish kohanim share some common ancestry distinct from other Jewish men. As I've said before, that's not surprising. But it's a farcry from demonstrating that there was a historical Aaron or Moses. I'm sorry, but it's you my dear who doesn't understand the science here.

Well... I don't believe in Julius Caesar... so there...

Why, if I may ask?

[ShadowSot]

ShadowSot doesn't miss much ....

It's the glasses.

[robinrenee]

Why, if I may ask?

This is in reference to your asking me why I don't believe in Julius Caesar,

Answer: Because he's in the Bible, silly.

[docyabut2]

Exodus-Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth.

I don't think a ark made of gold with cherubim's ( angels) on it, was ever really made or commissioned by Moses to Begalel, but it was a after thought in writing . In Deuteronmy Moses said I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.

I think Tubor Parifitt was right the ark Moses made was similar to the wooden drum he had found, made out of a tree stump. I believe Moses said he brought the thunder of God down from the mountain.

Edited May 31, 2015 by docyabut2

[GlitterRose]

No, popularity doesn't make it true. My response was directed more at ChaosRose's saying, "...there is no evidence of a Moses..." I think the majority of those 3.59 billion would disagree with that.

As for Moses and the exodus story, I would think most of the Jews and Moslems would believe Moses existed and that the exodus happened. Those 2 religions don't usually pick and choose what they believe and don't believe in their religions...

I don't believe the exodus story of the plagues and the Red Sea's parting happened. And perhaps Moses was known by a different name. I have heard it said that Moses is an Egyptian name meaning "son of." And that he was named Tut-Moses (Son of Thoth). I have no idea whether that is true or not. I've never researched it. Could be interesting though...

ShadowSot, you know about Egyptian history. Was there a Moses, son of Thoth, in Egypt around 1400 BC?

Most Jews are actually well aware that there is no evidence of a Moses or an Exodus. It is a misconception that most Jews think their books are historical. Reform Jews don't even believe the Torah was written by G-d. Reconstructionists don't even believe in a personified deity who is active in history, or even that the Jews were the chosen people. Read the section on Jewish movements in the US today.

https://www.google.c...jLguk3IOswli13w

Edited May 31, 2015 by ChaosRose

[GlitterRose]

Well, the exodus could be up for debate, but 8.5 billion adherents of the Abrahamic religions would disagree about no proof of Moses' existence... but who's counting?

There is either archaeological evidence for an event, or there isn't. In this case there isn't. It doesn't matter how many billions of people believe the bible, the Torah, or the Koran. That doesn't make evidence show up in the desert.

Edited May 31, 2015 by ChaosRose

[Jeanne dArc]

This is in reference to your asking me why I don't believe in Julius Caesar,

Answer: Because he's in the Bible, silly.

Except he isn't... but maybe that's the joke? Sorry, I'm not really following you here, haha

Julius Caesar is known from abundant evidence, both from during his own life and after it.

[Jeanne dArc]

Exodus-Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth.

I don't think a ark made of gold with cherubim's ( angels) on it, was ever really made or commissioned by Moses to Begalel, but it was a after thought in writing . In Deuteronmy Moses said I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.

Or, more likely, the ark was a preexisting object whose origin had been forgotten and needed explaining, and so it was connected with the Moses narrative. There were other exceptions to the "graven images" commandment: the brazen serpent, for example. These were clearly cult objects that already existed, and later generations wished to link with Moses. The commandment banning cult objects clearly did not exist until the late 7th or 6th Century at best, so it isn't too surprising that there would be contradictions in their revisionist mythic histories.

[ShadowSot]

Except he isn't... but maybe that's the joke? Sorry, I'm not really following you here, haha

Julius Caesar is known from abundant evidence, both from during his own life and after it.

Ceasar Augustus was mentioned. Render unto Caesar and all that.

The thing with Caesar is we not only have his writings, but we have writings about him from enemies of his who were contemporaries.

Moses is only written about in texts that were only compiled until much later.

In those texts we have problems matching it to the historical record.

No sudden disappearance of pooulation in Egypt. No trace of a large group of people traveling a relatively small area of labd.

Jericho never fell.

There may have been some kernel of truth there somewhere, but it is far outpaced bu legend.

[Magnanimus]

The term kapporet (kprt) is of uncertain meaning: the general idea seems to be of a throne, with the box of the "ark" beneath acting as a sort of pedestal over which the throne stood as a detachable piece. The wings of the karubs weren't in the air, they were raised up above the seat, "covering" the seat, as a sort of protection (karubs were guardian genies). As I've said before, the description sounds an awful lot like a cross between a gestatorial throne and a funerary shrine.

I think the item works fine as a ceremonial piece: an empty throne. But I suppose it wouldn't be impossible that an oracle of some sort was also involved with it. Given the fact only one person was ever allowed in there anyway, I don't think it really matters if they claimed Yahweh was invisibly sitting on the throne and talking to the high priest.

Yeah, not even close. The Mercy Seat atop the Ark wasn't a literal chair or throne, otherwise they would have called it such. It's no more a physical chair than a "county seat" has anything to do with an actual, special chair, somewhere in a government office. The word they use, "HaKapporeth," has a clear and definite origin from a very commonly used word. Just a glance at Strong's Concordance and the verb it derives from is used over a hundred times. It's the same root as the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur and is common in Arabic as well. We know exactly what the word is and where it came from. The better translation of "Mercy Seat" would be to call it something to the effect of "the focus of atonement"; something that denotes HaKapporeth's physical presence in regards to the centrality of spiritual absolution.

More Jewish translations avoid the Christian gloss of "Mercy Seat" and tend to use something of a play-on-words, as the root for "atonement" also means to "cover over," a sin or debt. Best modern comparison for that sense would be someone at the table after dinner saying something like, "don't worry about the check, I've got it covered." Sin was considered to be an actual debt or price that had to be paid in order to level the scales or spiritual justice. That's why some renderings of the Christian Lord's Prayer will say "forgive us our trespasses," while others say "forgive us our debts," in the context of use, they have an identical meaning.

From this, HaKapporeth is translated as "covering" or "Ark-cover". So what is the Mercy Seat? Why, it's the ark-cover that covers over the cover on top of the Ark.

The cherubim aren't what's doing the real "covering" in the line. True, their wings stretch out above the Kapporeth to form a "covering" or "awning," but it is HaKapporeth that covers over everything else.

The only other suggestion for an actual chair is when Samuel (1Sa 4:4) describes--Adonai Tzeva'oth yoshev HaKeruvim-- "The Lord of Host's sitting between the cherubim." However, anyone with any familiarity with Hebrew can tell you that the word for "sitting," yoshev, is similar to the above use of "seat," where "dwelling" or "residing" is far more accurate, especially given the context. So, "the Lord of Hosts dwells amidst the cherubim," of the Ark of the Covenant as a numinous and ineffable Presence, just as He did atop the mountain shrouded in smoke and cloud.

[Magnanimus]

I can show you a photo of it:

Snark aside, Raiders' prop department actually did a pretty good job, all things Hollywood considered. The Bible just gives us a fancy, gold box with two thingies facing each other standing over another thingy. The one Indy digs out of the Well of Souls actually seems to marry together detail work that resembles Egyptian and later Jewish design elements. There might not be relief work on the sides and the Cherubim might be styled differently, but if you wanted a decent enough representation… that'll do it.

They also put good detail into that Staff of Ra headpiece that brands Melted-Face Nazi's hand. The symbols around it are Paleo-Hebrew/Phoenician script and essentially say what the old Imam says they do (even though Indy made a staff a cubit short or something).

[Jeanne dArc]

Yeah, not even close. The Mercy Seat atop the Ark wasn't a literal chair or throne, otherwise they would have called it such. It's no more a physical chair than a "county seat" has anything to do with an actual, special chair, somewhere in a government office. The word they use, "HaKapporeth," has a clear and definite origin from a very commonly used word. Just a glance at Strong's Concordance and the verb it derives from is used over a hundred times. It's the same root as the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur and is common in Arabic as well. We know exactly what the word is and where it came from. The better translation of "Mercy Seat" would be to call it something to the effect of "the focus of atonement"; something that denotes HaKapporeth's physical presence in regards to the centrality of spiritual absolution.

More Jewish translations avoid the Christian gloss of "Mercy Seat" and tend to use something of a play-on-words, as the root for "atonement" also means to "cover over," a sin or debt. Best modern comparison for that sense would be someone at the table after dinner saying something like, "don't worry about the check, I've got it covered." Sin was considered to be an actual debt or price that had to be paid in order to level the scales or spiritual justice. That's why some renderings of the Christian Lord's Prayer will say "forgive us our trespasses," while others say "forgive us our debts," in the context of use, they have an identical meaning.

From this, HaKapporeth is translated as "covering" or "Ark-cover". So what is the Mercy Seat? Why, it's the ark-cover that covers over the cover on top of the Ark.

The cherubim aren't what's doing the real "covering" in the line. True, their wings stretch out above the Kapporeth to form a "covering" or "awning," but it is HaKapporeth that covers over everything else.

The only other suggestion for an actual chair is when Samuel (1Sa 4:4) describes--Adonai Tzeva'oth yoshev HaKeruvim-- "The Lord of Host's sitting between the cherubim." However, anyone with any familiarity with Hebrew can tell you that the word for "sitting," yoshev, is similar to the above use of "seat," where "dwelling" or "residing" is far more accurate, especially given the context. So, "the Lord of Hosts dwells amidst the cherubim," of the Ark of the Covenant as a numinous and ineffable Presence, just as He did atop the mountain shrouded in smoke and cloud.

I'm well aware of that interpretation; it isn't incompatible with mine. I think the understanding of kapporet as a form of kippor may be a folk etymology: or perhaps a double meaning.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Jeanne dArc

[robinrenee]

Most Jews are actually well aware that there is no evidence of a Moses or an Exodus. It is a misconception that most Jews think their books are historical. Reform Jews don't even believe the Torah was written by G-d. Reconstructionists don't even believe in a personified deity who is active in history, or even that the Jews were the chosen people. Read the section on Jewish movements in the US today.

https://www.google.c...jLguk3IOswli13w

Thanks, ChaosRose, that's a very informative website. It said that Orthodoxy is the only movement recognized in Israel. Guess I thought of all Jews as Orthodox. The article said that only 10% of American Jews are Orthodox. And that the tension between Orthodoxy and Reform has been going on over 100 years. I hope that doesn't mean that they are losing their culture. That would be a shame.

[ShadowSot]

Culture evolves, and it should.

Otherwise we'd just have stagnation.

And while they aren't near as bad as various sects of Islam, their treatment of women leaves a lot to be desired.

There are many different sects of Judaism, just as there are many sects of Christianity, Islam, or Hinduism.

[robinrenee]

There is either archaeological evidence for an event, or there isn't. In this case there isn't. It doesn't matter how many billions of people believe the bible, the Torah, or the Koran. That doesn't make evidence show up in the desert.

How many times do I have to say that I don't believe the exodus event happened?

I do, however, believe that Moses existed.