DC09 Posted November 30, 2004 #1 Share Posted November 30, 2004 With a Koran in one hand and pistol in the other, the British rapper calls for the murder of non-Muslims, including several world leaders, on a videotape. The video is well known in one London mosque, whose imam — or leader — is accused of setting up a terrorist training camp in Oregon and whose followers don't like Western media. Abu Hamza, who lost two hands and an eye in Afghanistan, is in jail now but other extremists from among Britain's two million Muslims continue to preach violence, veiling the message to take advantage of some of Europe's most liberal freedom-of-speech laws. "We cannot tolerate a crocodile in our bedroom," said Sheik Omar Bakri. "U.S. forces in Muslim countries are crocodiles in our bedrooms. So we are not going to give them ice cream." Bakri says the terrorists who staged the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States are magnificent and Westerners in Arab lands need to be killed by any means necessary. He makes the threats with a smile. Full Article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Caspian Hare Posted November 30, 2004 #2 Share Posted November 30, 2004 "A crocodile in our bedroom?" That's one of the oddest metaphors I've ever heard. It always makes my blood boil to see people like this enjoy the protection of civil liberties that they themselves would destroy if given their way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted November 30, 2004 #3 Share Posted November 30, 2004 So we are not going to give them ice cream." Crocodiles don't eat icecream dick! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whom_God_Loves Posted November 30, 2004 #4 Share Posted November 30, 2004 It's nothing ne Baaaaaaaaaby In the Islamic countries Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Sudan, a whole generation of Muslims have been trained and indoctrinated to hate non-Muslim countries including the United States Israel,and Europe. Their main objective is to conquer them by the same method the prophet of Islam, Mohammed, did in the seventh century by infiltration and creating fears so that they could move in and conquer with the help of Allah . They rely on the following Koranic verses: “Fight and slay the Pagans (non-Muslims) wherever you find them.” (Surah 9:5) “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him, and in the hereafter he will be in the ranks who have lost.” (Surah 3:85) “Fight those who believe not in Allah , nor the last day, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, and fight people of the book (Christians and Jews) until they pay Jiza (penalty tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” (Surah 9:29) “Strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah and your enemies.” (Surah 8:60) “Ye who believe! Take not the Jews And the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors To each other. And he Amongst you that turns to them (For Friendship) is one of them. Verily Allah guideth not A people unjust.” (Surah 5:56) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted November 30, 2004 #5 Share Posted November 30, 2004 but we got the bomb! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted November 30, 2004 #6 Share Posted November 30, 2004 In the Islamic countries Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Sudan, a whole generation of Muslims have been trained and indoctrinated to hate non-Muslim countries including the United States Israel,and Europe. I dont know about all those countries that you are so keen on generalizing about, but as far as Iran is concerened, the above statement is nonsense! I dont know how much time you have spent with university students in Iran for example, or used any other means except your local evening news to get to know a society, but I can tell you that you're very badly mistaken, and before you spread ignorance and thereby unnecessary hatred of people you dont even know, I suggest you go beyond the local tv for information! The very fact that you've put so many different countries in one catagory is a good witness to what I'm saying! Oh and by the way, to understand properly those Koranic verses that you quote, you need to see Islam not through the eyes of the people you are trying to condemn, but by using your own intelligence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted November 30, 2004 #7 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Abu Hamza, who lost two hands and an eye in Afghanistan, is in jail now but other extremists from among Britain's two million Muslims continue to preach violence, veiling the message to take advantage of some of Europe's most liberal freedom-of-speech laws Preaching violence has absolutely nothing Islamic about it! This phenomena has to be considered in a European context, since this is where it's taking place! You dont need a Ph.D in sociology to know that being subject to blind racisme and living on the margines of societies, are major factors in the fabrication of fanatics and extremists of all sorts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted November 30, 2004 #8 Share Posted November 30, 2004 "We cannot tolerate a crocodile in our bedroom," said Sheik Omar Bakri. "U.S. forces in Muslim countries are crocodiles in our bedrooms. So we are not going to give them ice cream The Sheikh has overlooked the simple fact that 'local crocodiles' such as the lunatic Saddam have killed more Muslims throughout history than the 'infidels' coming from elsewhere! Or maybe he thinks that the massacres commited by the Taliban in Afghanistan ( a Muslim country, need I remind the Sheikh), dont matter at all in the eyes of Allah! Maybe if he had condemned those horrors committed by the 'local crocodiles' at the time, he wouldnt have to eat his ice cream all alone now, and could share it with the Americans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted November 30, 2004 #9 Share Posted November 30, 2004 I dont know about all those countries that you are so keen on generalizing about, but as far as Iran is concerened, the above statement is nonsense! I dont know how much time you have spent with university students in Iran for example, or used any other means except your local evening news to get to know a society, but I can tell you that you're very badly mistaken, and before you spread ignorance and thereby unnecessary hatred of people you dont even know, I suggest you go beyond the local tv for information! The very fact that you've put so many different countries in one catagory is a good witness to what I'm saying! Oh pleeeaaaassseeee! Iran is the worst! Should I even start listing the level of hatred towards the west? Khumeinistic Iran is an exellent example of what happens when radical muslims take over a country. I mean - my god people - they even have suicide bomber squad in their military! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted November 30, 2004 #10 Share Posted November 30, 2004 but we got the bomb! Wouldn't do any good though. If an Al-Qaeda terrorist blows up a nuke in the middle of London or Berlin, for example, who you gonna attack with nukes? He wasn't a soldier of any country, and for all you know he could of got that nuke from a black market in Minsk or Moldovia . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted November 30, 2004 #11 Share Posted November 30, 2004 the Bomb knows all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted November 30, 2004 #12 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Iran is the worst! Should I even start listing the level of hatred towards the west? Put your money where your mouth is and start doing so by all means But please, dont deceive me by repeating the now outdated and poisonous propaganda that has been so successful in the unfortunate brain-washing of so many good people, because I really have my ears full of that and am in dire need of hearing something new for a change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted November 30, 2004 #13 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Put your money where your mouth is and start doing so by all means grin2.gif But please, dont deceive me by repeating the now outdated and poisonous propaganda that has been so successful in the unfortunate brain-washing of so many good people, because I really have my ears full of that and am in dire need of hearing something new for a change Zephyr, do you deny that youre government, since the 1979 revolution, incite against the US and other "infidels"? God I wish the Iranian people will get sane soon and over throw those maniac religious nuts who rule them, before they get nukes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Caspian Hare Posted November 30, 2004 #14 Share Posted November 30, 2004 (edited) The government of Iran has sponsored terrorism in the past, and continues to do so today. There seems to be a lot of dissatisfaction among some younger Iranians with their leadership, and a desire for democratic reform. I don't know how widespread the desire for a change of government is. There were some big anti-government protests there in the past coulpe years; there were also the usual "death to America/the U.K./the West" rallies. The country seems divided among conservative reactionaries and reformers. Edited November 30, 2004 by Redneck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted November 30, 2004 #15 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Put your money where your mouth is and start doing so by all means grin2.gif But please, dont deceive me by repeating the now outdated and poisonous propaganda that has been so successful in the unfortunate brain-washing of so many good people, because I really have my ears full of that and am in dire need of hearing something new for a change Zephyr, do you deny that youre government, since the 1979 revolution, incite against the US and other "infidels"? God I wish the Iranian people will get sane soon and over throw those maniac religious nuts who rule them, before they get nukes. 378685[/snapback] Your statements over-simpify what is in reality a very global ( everyone having a hand in it), and therefore complicated situation! You are contradicting yourself when you talk about "my government"! And about 'inciting'; do you mean that the Iranian government has declared war on the US? You mean we should make another revolution, just to make you guys happy? Being too emotional about a subject makes one say funny things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted November 30, 2004 #16 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Your statements over-simpify what is in reality a very global ( everyone having a hand in it), and therefore complicated situation! You are contradicting yourself when you talk about "my government"! And about 'inciting'; do you mean that the Iranian government has declared war on the US? You mean we should make another revolution, just to make you guys happy? Being too emotional about a subject makes one say funny things Oh comeon... you know what I'm talking about. The current Iranian government is dangerous not only to other nations, but also to the Iranians themselves. I wasn't in favour of the Shah as well, because he oppressed you. But you've chosen a government which oppress no differently. And at least the Shah wasn't conducting any terrorist actions around the world, and didn't pose a danger to other countries. Why do the Iranian government hate Israel, for example? Israel has a conflict with Arab countries, not the Iranian people. Iran is not Arabic. Iranians don't even have the same religion as most Arabs (you are Shiites while most Arabs are Sunnis). As a matter of fact, most Arabs hate Iran because it is a non-Arab, non-Sunni entity stuck in their back. The Iranians too have many reasons to dislike the Arabs, after what they did to you in the last 1,300 years and in recent history (1 million Iranians are burried in the middle of desert in the name of Arab unity). They even oppress youre co-religious Arabs (Saudis oppress Shiites and so did Saddam). Israel has never done any wrong to Iran. When we bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor, we also saved millions of Iranian lives (who do you think Saddam would have used his nukes first? he already chemically sprayed youre citizens... what makes you think he wouldn't have nuked you as well?). Israel is a long running ally of another Iranian people - the Kurds. Israel and Iran used to be in exellent relations. Persians freed the Jewish people from the Babylonian exile. Parthians defended their Jews when the Romans were slaughtering us in the hundreds of thousands. The only reason that Iran wants to destroy Israel is because it is run by relgious nuts who see this as a religious goal. This is but a simple example of how irrational and un-logical the current extremist Iranian government is. If it will continue with it's current actions (not only against Israel, but other western countries by supporting global terrorism), we and the rest of the west will have no other option but to defend ourselves. Believe me, Israelis do not hate the Iranian people, and the last thing we wish is to see Iranian blood on our military's hands. But if we will be attacked, we will have to defend oursleves with everything we got. You don't have to take my words for it - the Arabs have been trying to do what the current Iranian government is trying for the last 56 years. They have all been defeated . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lottie Posted November 30, 2004 #17 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Abu Hamza, who lost two hands and an eye in Afghanistan, is in jail now but other extremists from among Britain's two million Muslims continue to preach violence, veiling the message to take advantage of some of Europe's most liberal freedom-of-speech laws. Deport the lot of them and get rid! I am absoloutely fed up with these scumbags. They live in my country with all the privalidges that our country offers and they spout of their treasonous bull****. I have siad this before, their is still a law, though not used anymore...pity, where comitting acts of treason are punishable by death...maybe its about time the goverment made an example of Hazma! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted December 1, 2004 #18 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I'm neither a representative of, nor a spokesman for the Iranian government! I was merely trying to point out the huge misunderstanding that the western media have created around Iran! There are many problems in Iran which the Iranians, more than anybody else would like to see solved, but their efforts are hampered by the wrong and short-sighted policies of the west, which has never hesitated to intervene in the internal affairs of Iran! I suggest you study the contemporary history of Iran to see what I mean! There was Saddam and the Taliban; both extremists created and supported by the west and their local conservative allies who were sworn enemies of Iran! How does anyone expect rerforms to take place in a country which is under constant threat from abroad? A day does not go by in which Iran is either threatened to be bombed, or called all sorts of names I dont see things along the 'hate' lines that some extremists on these forums do! All statements about 'us' and 'them', and Iranians hating Americans and all that crap is nothing but nonsense created for a very ugly purpose, and unfortunately simple minded people easily fall into that trap! Iran attacking any country at this point is simply another illusion! Iran is used as a convenient scapegoat! As for Iran being dangerous, I think it's much less dangerous than America under Bush or Israel under Sharon! For the moment the warmongers of this world are not Iranian So if you guys are worried about wars, I suggest you do something about your own warmongering leaders and let the Iranians worry about Iran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted December 1, 2004 #19 Share Posted December 1, 2004 A day does not go by in which Iran is either threatened to be bombed, or called all sorts of names Same goes for Israel, threatened daily to be wiped out by no other than... Iran! So give me a break. Iran, since taken over by the Ayatolas, as done nothing but supporting terrorism against Israel and the west, whom they view as infidels and heretics. There was Saddam and the Taliban; both extremists created and supported by the west and their local conservative allies who were sworn enemies of Iran! No one justifies world support for Saddam. But you must remember that Israel not only didn't support Iraq back then, but bombed Saddam's nuclear reactor, thus saving you guys from nuclear annihalation (he was already a year into his invasion to Iran). The Taliban was supported not against Iran, but against the USSR. Although I do believe that was another American mis-judgment. I dont see things along the 'hate' lines that some extremists on these forums do! All statements about 'us' and 'them', and Iranians hating Americans and all that crap is nothing but nonsense created for a very ugly purpose, and unfortunately simple minded people easily fall into that trap! Not at all. You see, we do represent our countries because we choose who will lead us. So we can and do speak about "us" when we talk about our governments. The Iranian people, on the other hand, as little to no say in it's government - youre so called "free" elections are nothing but a farce, no unlike the elections that took part in the USSR, Saddamist Iraq, or any other of the so-called "people's republics". Iran attacking any country at this point is simply another illusion! Iran is used as a convenient scapegoat! Oh please, you must be kidding here. What does the averege Israeli think when he ears the daily call for Israel's destruction, the recruit of suicide bombers squad to destroy Israel and take over Jerusalem, the massive arment of Hezbollah in Lebanon (even though Israel pulled out of Lebanon some 4 years ago), the massive funding for Palestinian terrorist acts, etc.? Don't play innocent. I've heard free Iranians' view about the government in their homeland, and they all universally agree that it is a criminal and terrorist government. I think it's much less dangerous than America under Bush or Israel under Sharon! LOL! Talking about brainwashing! What did Sharon do in his term in government that he is considered to be a "warmonger". All his reactions were to Palestinian terrorism. He now has an illiteral disengagement plan from Gaza and some places in Judea and Samaria. His party, Likud, was the first party to sign peace treaty with Arab country. A PM from that government, Begin, was the one who ordered to bomb the nuclear reactor in Iraq (built by the French, btw) back in 1981, thus saving youre *ss. But to come to think about it, Iran was calling all Israel's PM warmongers since 1979, so no surprise here. Only one sentence is left to say: Free Iran now from the Mullahs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Caspian Hare Posted December 1, 2004 #20 Share Posted December 1, 2004 (edited) The Taliban was not supported by the West. It didn't even exist until after the Soviet occupation was over. And if Western aid did help Saddam, then it would seem to be an argument for removing him, to rectify past mistakes. And by the way, both the Taliban and Saddam's Iraq were mortal enemies of Iran. "Warmongering" America has destroyed both of these threats on Iran's borders. Edited December 1, 2004 by Redneck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted December 1, 2004 #21 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Indeed you are correct RedNeck. But pay attention - I did not say "the US supported Saddam", I said "the West supported" (as opposed to the Taliban, which the US did build and trained, btw), becaue US's support to Saddam was not as great as other western, mainly European countries, was. France and Germany were the main supporters of Saddam both technologically, logistically, and financely during and before the Iran-Iraq war. Though the US did support Saddam during that war, it had much smaller part in his war efforts against Iran. On the other hand, other western countries did support him, as I said earlier. Saddam's planes were french ones (as well as Russian ones, but since Russia was not part of the west, it's part, however many times greater than any other western country, will not be discussed here). The french even built his nuclear reactor, and it was a "Made in Germany" sarin gas used by Saddam to genocide 180,000 Kurds in 1987-1988 (during the Iran-Iraq war). Redneck also made a point about the fact that even though the US supported both the Taliban (against the Russians) and to a smaller degree Saddam's regime, they did took out both of them. Iran, however, seem to have no problem conducting business with the Russians these days, even though Russia did arm and financed almost every Arab military untill 1991, and practically built Saddam's military during the Iran-Iraq war. It were mainly a Russian made weapons which killed almost million Iranians in that war. And yet, the Ayatolas seem to have no problem conducting business with the same people who once supported their most bitter enemies (and not too long, btw). This only emphesize my point - the current Iranian regime hates the west (and Israel as the sole representive of the west in the Middle East) because it sees West's destrcution as a religious aspiration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asterix Posted December 1, 2004 #22 Share Posted December 1, 2004 (edited) Redneck also made a point about the fact that even though the US supported both the Taliban (against the Russians) and to a smaller degree Saddam's regime, they did took out both of them I'd like to point out though that US's involvment in Afghanistan in the 80's was what led to the outbreak of terrorist groups later on, at least indirectly. Even Al-Qaeda is, up to a limited degree, a "US policy in Afghanistan" -spawn. US in Afghanistan thought to "check" the Russians, or to put it other way, to revenge the policy Soviet Union followed during Vietnam. That is, getting involved without involvment, by helping the North Vietnamese. There was this American politician, can't remember who, that had graphically described it as "Sowing some sh** in the Soviets' backyard".. Anyway, problem is that USA (CIA in this case) didn't know anything about Afghanistan and the local warlords. As a result, CIA was depending almost entirely on the Pakistani Intelligence services for info and advice. And of course, the Pakistanis distrubuted the massive American funds not to groups that would fight the Russians (and therefore serve better the American interests) but to fundamentalist Islamic groups, that were keeping busy fighting rather each other. In an 8-year period, if I remember well almost 3 billion $ were funneled to the Afghan islamic groups. Stinger missiles were also supplied, of which more than 100 were "missing" after the war. (It is almost a certainty that Al-Qaeda got its hands on some or most of them) When the Soviets packed their stuff and went home, there was a ready-made vast infrastructure of...professional terrorists, who were practically trained with American taxpayers' money... Edited December 1, 2004 by Asterix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted December 2, 2004 #23 Share Posted December 2, 2004 The Taliban was not supported by the West. It didn't even exist until after the Soviet occupation was over. And if Western aid did help Saddam, then it would seem to be an argument for removing him, to rectify past mistakes You're wrong! The only reason that the Taliban came to power in Afghanistan was the unconditional support of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and some of the other Persian Gulf states, and America! This was a scheme to bug Iran originally, which backfired! Because of total ignorance by American policy makers, they didnt understand what kind of monster they were supporting! And this is not a matter of my opinion, but hard facts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted December 2, 2004 #24 Share Posted December 2, 2004 You see, we do represent our countries because we choose who will lead us. So we can and do speak about "us" when we talk about our governments. What I find really horrendous is people being proud of electing someone like Sharon as their leader Free Iran now from the Mullahs! Sorry to dissapoint you but I'm not whom you hope I would be and as I said you're too emotional to think logically and are constantly mixing up matters and contradicting yourself and stating the obvious! so here I make a similarly simple minded statement and hope that you will finally get what I'm saying: Free Israel now from war criminals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted December 2, 2004 #25 Share Posted December 2, 2004 Anyway, problem is that USA (CIA in this case) didn't know anything about Afghanistan and the local warlords. As a result, CIA was depending almost entirely on the Pakistani Intelligence services for info and advice Oh... at last someone well informed and not blinded by emotions! I agree with your entire post because it's constructed upon facts and not the current, usual and tiring propaganda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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