Is Self Defense Illegal in the U.K.?

[+and-then]

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150529/uk-police-tell-subjects-not-to-harm-their-attackers-get-a-rape-alarm

I'd like to hear from those of you who live under these rules, please. Is it really this bad there? And if so, when did protecting one's LIFE become illegal there? It would be absurd if it weren't so sad.

[questionmark]

Self defense is illegal nowhere, what is illegal in many places (including the UK) is to respond with unnecessary violence. For example a guy comes at you with a knife and you get a 50 mm howitzer and shoot him. Those cases end up in court.

[Doc Socks Junior]

It appears a wee bit more restrictive than that. From the referenced police department site (https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q589.htm):

The only fully legal self defence product at the moment is a rape alarm.

Goodie.

“You must not get a product which is made or adapted to cause a person injury. Possession of such a product in public (and in private in specific circumstances) is against the law.”

Edited May 30, 2015 by socrates.junior

[Leonardo]

The advice by the police is a bit of an overreaction to spurious claims by criminals in court when they have been injured in the process of committing an offence. The law clearly states a person is entitled to self-defence with force appropriate to the situation, but our police are a bit 'PC'' (pun intended).

[questionmark]

The advice by the police is a bit of an overreaction to spurious claims by criminals in court when they have been injured in the process of committing an offence. The law clearly states a person is entitled to self-defence with force appropriate to the situation, but our police are a bit 'PC'' (pun intended).

It is not a cop's job to determine if something was self-defense. That obliges to a magistrate. Therefore it is completely correct of the police to book the people involved and let the courts decide.

[Gromdor]

From what I seen back from my stay in the 90's, a lot of disputes were settled with fists.

[questionmark]

From what I seen back from my stay in the 90's, a lot of disputes were settled with fists.

Well, the use of weapons is frowned upon in Europe... except to eradicate whole countries...

[Leonardo]

It is not a cop's job to determine if something was self-defense. That obliges to a magistrate. Therefore it is completely correct of the police to book the people involved and let the courts decide.

I don't disagree that self-defence is something that should be required to be proved. What I was criticising - even if slightly - was the implied 'advice' that people in the UK cannot 'fight back' against an attacker.

I concede the advice actually given was in response to a question regarding what self-defence products are legal in the UK and the police are obliged to answer only alarm devices are legal. However, cautioning the public against employing any self-defence 'product' except alarms does not set a good example of how the police seem to view victims of crime.

As you say, whether an act can be justified in terms of self-defence is one that a court should decide if required. The police should not really get involved in pre-determining what qualifies as self-defence outside what is written in law.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Leonardo

[Mr.United_Nations]

its not bad, media overreation, i havent seen anyone been charged with assaulting a rapist, its only when the rapist makes a claim. Infact its hardly mentioned at all.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Yes_Man

[Susanc241]

As a female, if I was attacked and I could lay my hands on something that could be used as a weapon, I wouldn't hesitate. I'd deal with the aftermath in the courts. The balance is too much towards the perpetrator, these days. The police (as an organisation) seem to be brainwashed into the liberal left way of thinking. Political correctness let common sense leave by the window as it came in the door. When you have teachers and parents with their hands tied re physical punishment and restraint (I am not talking about beatings or whippings but a short sharp smack on back of legs for younger children for example) for unruly children you have lost the battle before it has begun and you end up with adults who are frightened of children who know they can't be touched and criminals who seem surprised to meet resistance and think they are hard done by when their victims fight back.

Edited to say I live in UK.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Susanc241

[Skep B]

its not bad, media overreation, i havent seen anyone been charged with assaulting a rapist, its only when the rapist makes a claim. Infact its hardly mentioned at all.

This seems to be the situation, just because someone is taken to court on the issue doesn't mean they're guilty of it, just the system doing it's thing.

[KariW]

As a female, if I was attacked and I could lay my hands on something that could be used as a weapon, I wouldn't hesitate.

Neither would I, and to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't hesitate to send the rapist to meet his maker, if it prevents him from raping & killing others with a fatal infectious disease.

I have Absolutely NO Tolerance for pure evil in life and death situations!

Edited May 30, 2015 by KariW

[+and-then]

The advice by the police is a bit of an overreaction to spurious claims by criminals in court when they have been injured in the process of committing an offence. The law clearly states a person is entitled to self-defence with force appropriate to the situation, but our police are a bit 'PC'' (pun intended).

I believe you Leo, but the article clearly states that you cannot get a product made OR adapted to be harmful. It makes such an item illegal and that's a pretty broad brush.

From what I seen back from my stay in the 90's, a lot of disputes were settled with fists.

The old fashioned and honorable way... except when it's more than one on one or when one of the parties is older, infirm and unable to fight. I've had 3 spinal surgeries and couldn't run 50 yards if my life depended on it, my lungs are THAT bad. So if one of the kids (teens/twenties) that ride by me yelling insults sometimes at night, were to stop and decide to have a go on me just because they could, I'd be perfectly justified to shoot them. I carry pepper spray and unless they pulled a weapon I'd NOT shoot them but I'd cheerfully light them up with that spray. Apparently if I were walking in the UK I could go to jail for even having it. That seems a little too lenient on behalf of the wrong side in the equation.

[zebra99]

The trouble with the laws in the UK is that the court decides what may be 'reasonable force.'when defending yourself and your home. How can a judge in daylight in his nice safe courtroom possibly imagine the fear of the individual who is wakened from a deep sleep and sees the dark shadow of a possible killer. Or even guess at his or her reaction.

[Leonardo]

I believe you Leo, but the article clearly states that you cannot get a product made OR adapted to be harmful. It makes such an item illegal and that's a pretty broad brush.

Well, I don't think either the article or the quote from the police was very clear on the situation. It is illegal to manufacture or purchase 'weapons' for use in self-defence*. However, it would not be illegal for me to use a cricket bat, hockey stick, softball bat, golf club etc. (even a firearm if I owned one) in defence of my person** should I be assaulted in my home, or at a venue where I might reasonably be carrying such an item for the purpose they are intended to be used.

* there are items manufactured for the purpose of martial arts use which can be legally bought, but then only for use in training/competition involving that martial art.

** This is dependent on the situation and whether using such an item would constitute 'reasonable force'.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Leonardo

[KariW]

When I was younger, I actually had a taser - my father bought it for me for protection when I was attending classes at night. Then I graduated to firearms.

[The Silver Thong]

Deffend your life first and deal with it.

[Eldorado]

Inviting someone into your home then killing them for intruding is illegal in the UK. As is killing folk who walk through your open door 'cos they gave you a fright.

Defending yourself is expected.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Eldorado

[questionmark]

The trouble with the laws in the UK is that the court decides what may be 'reasonable force.'when defending yourself and your home. How can a judge in daylight in his nice safe courtroom possibly imagine the fear of the individual who is wakened from a deep sleep and sees the dark shadow of a possible killer. Or even guess at his or her reaction.

So, who do you want to decide what reasonable force is if not the courts? The guy who just nuked his neighbors because "the music was hurting his ears"?

[Mr.United_Nations]

Also what is reasonable force? I know what it is because I studied it.

[questionmark]

Also what is reasonable force? I know what it is because I studied it.

the amount of force needed to protect oneself and his property (in the US, don't know the valid British definition)

[KariW]

In the US, we have what is called "Stand your Ground" Laws, which allows an individual to use deadly force, if they are in fear of their lives. The law varies from state to state, but here in Texas, the Castle Doctrine includes not only your home, but also your car, or place of work. Under Texas Penal Code 9.32, you are justified in using lethal force for robbery, sexual assault, kidnapping, or in defense of another person under certain circumstances.

[questionmark]

In the US, we have what is called "Stand your Ground" Laws, which allows an individual to use deadly force, if they are in fear of their lives. The law varies from state to state, but here in Texas, the Castle Doctrine includes not only your home, but also your car, or place of work. Under Texas Penal Code 9.32, you are justified in using lethal force for robbery, sexual assault, kidnapping, or in defense of another person under certain circumstances.

not in every state, in fact some states are considered "Stand Your Ground" states while in reality all they have is a "reasonable force" provision (i.e. Iowa and Washington)

[Border Collie]

https://www.gov.uk/reasonable-force-against-intruders

[rashore]

I'm finding it interesting that a U.S. gun site is making commentary about UK laws. That is a bit like something along the lines of say.. the beef cattle farmers association making commentary about how the citrus tree growers association handles it's grafting practices.

Now, to the article.. sounds like the legal product sold as a self defense device is a rape alarm. This says nothing about the act of self defense itself. So you can't buy a hunting knife for the sake of self protection, this does not mean if you are being attacked in your home you can't grab a butcher knife off the counter and stab your attacker. You can't buy a club to carry around with you on the streets just in case, but that does not mean you can't pick up a chunk of wood or a brick to club your attacker with if needed. And of course, gun laws are vastly different between the U.S. and the UK. And there is always hand to hand ways of self defense as well, regardless of where one lives.

Edited May 31, 2015 by rashore