The Sahara Desert and Plato's Atlantis

[Hanslune]

Thats crazy.

There is much proof of Atlantis. Just look at the evidence from people like Edgar Cayce and Helena Blavatsky.

Well yeah sometimes the simplest answer is the best - I've been watching Atlantis ideas bob around for 45 years - then slowly sink out of sight.

[ShadowSot]

What amazes me is the complete cgange in Atlantis from Plato to modern New Age ideas. They are completely different in character.

[Harte]

They quote about the Sea Peoples in Egyptian records. The following is from Kuhne (2004):

1. The Atlanteans fought against Europe and Asia (Tim. 24e) and ‚every country within the mouth‘, i. e. against the Eastern Mediterranean countries (Tim. 25b). The Sea Peoples destroyed Hatti in Anatolia, Qode and Qarkemish in northern Syria, Arzawa in southwest Anatolia, and Alasia on Cyprus (Plate 46.16 – 17) and fought against Egypt.
   
2. The Atlanteans lived on an isle (Tim. 24e, 25a, 25d, Crit. 113c) and reigned over several other islands (Tim. 25a). Also the Sea Peoples came from islands (Pl. 37.8 – 9, 42.3, 46.16).
   
3. The Atlanteans reigned in Africa from the pillars of Heracles (Gibraltar) to the frontiers of Egypt (Tim. 25a – . The war of the Sea Peoples against Egypt occurred simultaneously with the war of the Libyan Meshwesh. According to Ramses‘ report they appeared to be allied.
   
4. Atlantis consisted of ten countries (Crit. 113e – 114a, 119b). According to the Karnak inscription written under pharaoh Merenptah around 1200 BC, the Sea Peoples consisted of the Ekwesh, Teresh, Lukka, Sherden, and Shekelesh. According to Ramses III their confederation consisted of the union of the countries of the Peleset, Theker, Shekelesh, Denen, and Weshesh (Pl. 46).
   
5. In the case of war the Atlanteans had more than one million soldiers (Crit. 119a – . Ramses III claimed to have beaten hundreds of thousands of enemies (Pl. 18.16, 19.4 – 5, 27.63, 32.10, 79.7, 80.36, 80.44, 101.21, 121c.7). Occasionally, he spoke of millions (Pl. 27.64, 46.4, 46.6, 79.7, 101.21) and myriads (Pl. 27.64) of enemies who were numerous like locusts (Pl. 18.16, 80.36) or grasshoppers (Pl. 27.63).
   
6. The Atlanteans had 1200 war ships (Crit. 119b). The ships of the Sea Peoples entered deep into the delta of the Nile (Pl. 42.5) and destroyed the Asian Arzawa, the Cypric Alasia, and the near-eastern Ugarit and Amurru.
   
7. The Atlanteans had chariots pulled by horses (Crit. 119a). The Meshwesh had horses (Pl. 75.37) and carts (Pl. 18.16, 75.27) which, however, were pulled by oxen (figures to Pl. 32 – 34).
   
8. The Atlantean kings reigned for several generations (Crit. 120d – e) and after this they lost their good attitudes (Crit. 121a – . Ramses III wrote about the Sea Peoples that they had spent a long time, a short moment was before them, then they entered the evil period (Pl. 80.16 – 17).
   
9. During a day and a night Atlantis sank by an earthquake into the sea (Tim. 25c – d). Ramses III wrote that he let the Sea Peoples see the majesty and force of (the God of water) Nun when he breaks out and lays their towns and villages under a surge of water (Pl. 102.21), moreover the mountains were in travail (Pl. 19.11).
   

I don't though find any of these to be in the slightest convincing. I mean Atlantis = an Island, and the Sea Peoples came from islands(s), yet this can apply to any insular Mediterranean peoples. The similarities are too generic, and not specific enough to make the Sea Peoples-Atlanteans a serious identification.

Kuhne is also not a classicist or archaeologist but an astrophysicist. Its always people in non-relevant academic fields publishing these fringe theories on Atlantis.

According to Plato, where did the Atlanteans conquer or even attack Egypt?

Also, according to the Mortuary Temple of Rameses III, the Sea People were a conglomerate of fighters; some from islands, but many if not most from various parts of the mainland. Those that we can identify, anyway.

Did the Athenians conquer the Sea Peoples?

Did the Sea Peoples attack Athens?

Not even a crappy match.

Harte

[Hanslune]

According to Plato, where did the Atlanteans conquer or even attack Egypt?

Also, according to the Mortuary Temple of Rameses III, the Sea People were a conglomerate of fighters; some from islands, but many if not most from various parts of the mainland. Those that we can identify, anyway.

Did the Athenians conquer the Sea Peoples?

Did the Sea Peoples attack Athens?

Not even a crappy match.

Harte

Improvisus, improvisus,improvisus

[Shouldthisexist]

Improvisus, improvisus,improvisus

In retrospect I'm glad I took Latin In high school instead of German!

[atalante]

To my knowledge, nobody has asked for a "perfect" copy of the Atlantis tale in Egyptian myth.

How about just a copy?

How about even just a crappy copy?

None of those either.

Harte

Most art can be understood in more than one way, with the variant-meanings being inferred by every observer.

Here is one example:

quote from: http://www.atlantisq....com/Hiero.html

Set: can mean a mountainous land,

any foreign land, or the Underworld

(Inscription of Anebni, 18th Dynasty)

Amentet: can mean West, Land of

the West, or Underworld (Funeral

Stele of Panehesi, 19th Dynasty)

• 
  

Now the "Land of the West" would be a natural Egyptian name for Atlantis. Ancient Egyptian records sometimes refer to the Atlantic as the "Western Ocean".....

That the glyph set also represented the "underworld," does fit, after a fashion, since this is the land where the sun shines after it has set (no pun intended) on the land of Egypt. It was believed in popular Egyptian mythology that the sun passed through the underworld on its way back to rise once more in the east. Prof. Arysio dos Santos of Säo Paulo believes that Amentet is the Egyptian counterpart of the Isles of the Blest of Hesiod.

The Egyptians often appear to distinguish between Amentet (the opposite side of the world where the sun makes its return to the east) and Tuat (the realm of the dead, that of departed spirits), yet Egyptologists arbitrarily translate either glyph as "underworld". Amentet combines the glyph for "foreign land" (using set as a determinative for "land" or "country") alongside standard glyphs for "west", meaning "Land of the West". The "land" (set) determinative is entirely missing in Tuat, which I consider of more than minor significance.

The "Seven Islands" of Amentet*

We therefore have a glyph representing a western, mountainous land, a land where the sun went after it had set on Egypt...

Edited June 25, 2015 by atalante

[Hanslune]

Most art can be understood in more than one way, with the variant-meanings being inferred by every observer.

Here is one example:

quote from: http://www.atlantisq....com/Hiero.html

Set: can mean a mountainous land,

any foreign land, or the Underworld

(Inscription of Anebni, 18th Dynasty)

Amentet: can mean West, Land of

the West, or Underworld (Funeral

Stele of Panehesi, 19th Dynasty)

Now the "Land of the West" would be a natural Egyptian name for Atlantis. Ancient Egyptian records sometimes refer to the Atlantic as the "Western Ocean".....

That the glyph set also represented the "underworld," does fit, after a fashion, since this is the land where the sun shines after it has set (no pun intended) on the land of Egypt. It was believed in popular Egyptian mythology that the sun passed through the underworld on its way back to rise once more in the east. Prof. Arysio dos Santos of Säo Paulo believes that Amentet is the Egyptian counterpart of the Isles of the Blest of Hesiod.

The Egyptians often appear to distinguish between Amentet (the opposite side of the world where the sun makes its return to the east) and Tuat (the realm of the dead, that of departed spirits), yet Egyptologists arbitrarily translate either glyph as "underworld". Amentet combines the glyph for "foreign land" (using set as a determinative for "land" or "country") alongside standard glyphs for "west", meaning "Land of the West". The "land" (set) determinative is entirely missing in Tuat, which I consider of more than minor significance.

The "Seven Islands" of Amentet*

We therefore have a glyph representing a western, mountainous land, a land where the sun went after it had set on Egypt...

Very nice but since the Egyptians lived in a place where there WAS land to the west why would it be surprising that they had a name for it? Question did they have names for the land to east, north and south?

[DeCamp]

Here is one example:

quote from: http://www.atlantisq....com/Hiero.html

Written by a crank, its sloppy and poor research, and his sources found at the bottom of the page are either outdated or frauds.

Schliemann, Paul, "How I Discovered Atlantis, the Source of All Civilization," The New York American (weekly), New York, 1912.

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/the-atlantis-hoax-of-1912

[DeCamp]

According to Plato, where did the Atlanteans conquer or even attack Egypt?

Also, according to the Mortuary Temple of Rameses III, the Sea People were a conglomerate of fighters; some from islands, but many if not most from various parts of the mainland. Those that we can identify, anyway.

Did the Athenians conquer the Sea Peoples?

Did the Sea Peoples attack Athens?

Not even a crappy match.

Harte

It does say in Timaeus (25b) that the island of Atlantis ruled over Europe, "as far as Egypt". But yes, your other points show this equation is silly.

This passage is also problematic for those that equate Minoan Crete with Atlantis, since the Minoans did not conquer these areas. However they reinterpret this rule as trade, so the extent of their cultural contact which covered most the Mediterranean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_civilization#Minoans_beyond_Crete

But yea...this is not what Plato says. The people who make this identifications of Atlantis with a real place always alter the text to suit their theory.

[Harte]

It does say in Timaeus (25b) that the island of Atlantis ruled over Europe, "as far as Egypt". But yes, your other points show this equation is silly.

"As far as" doesn't include Egypt. as far as I'm concerned.

We would need to be looking for some Egyptian myth or otherwise ancient Egyptian tale concerning how some other country acted as the saviors of the countries around the Mediterranean Basin.

Good luck with that.

I mean, does that sort of thing sound at all like anything the Ancient Egyptians would preserve in their literature?

This passage is also problematic for those that equate Minoan Crete with Atlantis, since the Minoans did not conquer these areas. However they reinterpret this rule as trade, so the extent of their cultural contact which covered most the Mediterranean.

If they'd only realize that they could claim (with some backing, in fact) that the destruction of Thera was at least a part of the impetus for the eventuality of the Sea Peoples, they could have a twofer.

In their minds, anyway.

Your username - L. Sprague or what?

And welcome to the forum.

Harte

[atalante]

Very nice but since the Egyptians lived in a place where there WAS land to the west why would it be surprising that they had a name for it? .......

Hanslune,

It's not surprising that ancient Egypt had a name for westward lands. But far more interesting is how the Middle Kingdom used those western lands.

Middle Kingdom Egypt had its own version of the Medici pope Leo X (who sold indulgences to let people get into Catholic heaven).

quote about pope Leo X:

http://www.christian...n-11629920.html

St. Peter's basilica was being rebuilt, but there was no money. Leo decided to solve the problem in time-honored fashion. On this day March 15, 1517 he declared that anyone who contributed to the cathedral would be granted an indulgence. Although in theory an indulgence was only a remission of penalties meted out in this world by the church, in practice it was hawked as if it covered the actual guilt of sins and could release souls from Purgatory. The gist of the indulgence was as follows:

"... absolve you ...from all thy sins, transgressions, and excesses, how enormous soever they be...and remit to you all punishment which you deserve in purgatory on their account and I restore you...to the innocence and purity which you possessed at baptism; so that when you die the gates of punishment shall be shut... and if you shall not die at present, this grace shall remain in full force when you are at the point of death."

Sent to preach the indulgence in Germany was a Dominican named Tetzel. Tetzel got above himself in his promises, implying that the indulgence even covered the future sins which the buyer was now harboring in his heart. Frederick the Wise refused to allow the indulgence to be preached in his territory of Saxony, mostly because he was reluctant to allow Saxon coin to leave his financially-depleted realm. Tetzel came as near the border of Saxony as he could. Folk from Wittenberg crossed over and bought the prized papers.

Afterwards a few doubted the efficacy of the writs. They solicited the opinion to a middle aged monk named Martin Luther.

endquote

A similar activity had occurred in Middle Kingdom Egypt.

Middle Kingdom Egypt granted indulgences so Egyptian elite people could live in a western paradise (after they died in Egypt) -- if the elite people promised to support Egypt's mythical king Osiris in the afterworld, and to grow food for Osiris in the afterworld.

The high priest of Thoth granted those indulgences to elite people, and he included a map (in the form of artwork) indicating where Egypt's elite people should reside within the western paradise.

As you might expect for artwork, the Middle Kingdom map was a bit vague. The artwork on elite coffins gave dimensions for the overall western paradise (1000 iteru long and 1000 iteru wide). And then it sketched-in a chosen region for the zombie elites -- the "waterway of Leukippe (a.k.a. white hippopotamus)".

http://www.academia...._Field_of_Hetep

This Middle Kingdom theme echoed for many centuries, in the later religious texts that ancient Egypt produced.

Edited June 26, 2015 by atalante

[Harte]

Hanslune,

It's not surprising that ancient Egypt had a name for westward lands. But far more interesting is how the Middle Kingdom used those western lands.

Middle Kingdom Egypt had its own version of the Medici pope Leo X (who sold indulgences to let people get into Catholic heaven).

Middle Kingdom Egypt granted indulgences so Egyptian elite people could live in a western paradise (after they died in Egypt) -- if the elite people promised to support Egypt's mythical king Osiris in the afterworld, and to grow food for Osiris in the afterworld.

The high priest of Thoth granted those indulgences to elite people, and he included a map (in the form of artwork) indicating where Egypt's elite people should reside within the western paradise.

As you might expect for artwork, the Middle Kingdom map was a bit vague. The artwork on elite coffins gave dimensions for the overall western paradise (1000 iteru long and 1000 iteru wide). And then it sketched-in a chosen region for the zombie elites -- the "waterway of Leukippe (a.k.a. white hippopotamus)".

http://www.academia...._Field_of_Hetep

This Middle Kingdom theme echoed for many centuries, in the later religious texts that ancient Egypt produced.

By this description, the Middle Kingdom indulgences aren't much similar.

That is, the beneifit in your description goes to the god after the elite (who got the indulgence) died.

Leo and the church actually benefited financially, selling indulgences for cold cash and valuables.

Did the Egyptian priesthood benefit financially?

I don't know, but your description doesn't say.

Harte

[kmt_sesh]

The maps inside Middle Kingdom coffins were vignettes or depictions that accompanied the Coffin Texts. These relate strictly to the afterlife and the hope of the deceased to achieve an afterlife. This was a time during which the cult of Osiris blossomed, and for the first time ordinary people could achieve an afterlife by adhering to the Osiride cult.

The maps do not relate to any physical place of this world, per se. They depict, in highly vague terms, the route the soul of the deceased was to take to reach the afterlife safely. This culminated in the New Kingdom tombs of the royals in the elaborate texts of the Amduat, which were painted on tomb walls. These maps show the route Re took in his nighttime journey to unite with Osiris and subsequently to be reborn at dawn. They depict no more real physical, earthly place than do the maps of the Coffin Texts.

The Egyptians have no inscription, text, legend, fable, or account that equates with Atlantis. It simply was not part of their tradition. Fringe and alternative writers sometimes turn to Imentet in a painful stretch to identify Atlantis in the Egyptian tradition, but it's at best a clumsy and at worst a patently misleading comparison. There is no validity to it.

[atalante]

By this description, the Middle Kingdom indulgences aren't much similar.

That is, the beneifit in your description goes to the god after the elite (who got the indulgence) died.

Leo and the church actually benefited financially, selling indulgences for cold cash and valuables.

Did the Egyptian priesthood benefit financially?

I don't know, but your description doesn't say.

Harte

The Middle Kingdom priest got several things.

He got a huge statue of himself (which he boasts was the largest statue ever created in Egypt). He also got a colossal tomb, wherein he housed most of the non-nomarch coffins that contained his map about the "waterway of the White Hippopotamus". Moreover, he ushered in a major religious "reformation", which Egyptologists call the "First Intermediate Period" of Egypt. (Most likely he also got a festival named the Feast of the White Hippopotamus, which continued to be celebrated at Thebes in Egypt's New Kingdom.)

Edited June 27, 2015 by atalante

[Harte]

My point is, the AE "indulgences" remained pious while the Catholic ones were naked greed.

Harte

[Hanslune]

Hanslune,

It's not surprising that ancient Egypt had a name for westward lands. But far more interesting is how the Middle Kingdom used those western lands.

Middle Kingdom Egypt had its own version of the Medici pope Leo X (who sold indulgences to let people get into Catholic heaven).

quote about pope Leo X:

http://www.christian...n-11629920.html

St. Peter's basilica was being rebuilt, but there was no money. Leo decided to solve the problem in time-honored fashion. On this day March 15, 1517 he declared that anyone who contributed to the cathedral would be granted an indulgence. Although in theory an indulgence was only a remission of penalties meted out in this world by the church, in practice it was hawked as if it covered the actual guilt of sins and could release souls from Purgatory. The gist of the indulgence was as follows:

"... absolve you ...from all thy sins, transgressions, and excesses, how enormous soever they be...and remit to you all punishment which you deserve in purgatory on their account and I restore you...to the innocence and purity which you possessed at baptism; so that when you die the gates of punishment shall be shut... and if you shall not die at present, this grace shall remain in full force when you are at the point of death."

Sent to preach the indulgence in Germany was a Dominican named Tetzel. Tetzel got above himself in his promises, implying that the indulgence even covered the future sins which the buyer was now harboring in his heart. Frederick the Wise refused to allow the indulgence to be preached in his territory of Saxony, mostly because he was reluctant to allow Saxon coin to leave his financially-depleted realm. Tetzel came as near the border of Saxony as he could. Folk from Wittenberg crossed over and bought the prized papers.

Afterwards a few doubted the efficacy of the writs. They solicited the opinion to a middle aged monk named Martin Luther.

endquote

A similar activity had occurred in Middle Kingdom Egypt.

Middle Kingdom Egypt granted indulgences so Egyptian elite people could live in a western paradise (after they died in Egypt) -- if the elite people promised to support Egypt's mythical king Osiris in the afterworld, and to grow food for Osiris in the afterworld.

The high priest of Thoth granted those indulgences to elite people, and he included a map (in the form of artwork) indicating where Egypt's elite people should reside within the western paradise.

As you might expect for artwork, the Middle Kingdom map was a bit vague. The artwork on elite coffins gave dimensions for the overall western paradise (1000 iteru long and 1000 iteru wide). And then it sketched-in a chosen region for the zombie elites -- the "waterway of Leukippe (a.k.a. white hippopotamus)".

http://www.academia...._Field_of_Hetep

This Middle Kingdom theme echoed for many centuries, in the later religious texts that ancient Egypt produced.

Sorry Atlante I missed this when you first put it up

I don't see how, using even the most liberal interpretation how this could in anyway be associated with 'Atlantis'.

I believe my original question (which I will re-phrase) was what was the name for the west not (in your belief Atlantis) one but the 'regular' old west?

[atalante]

Sorry Atlante I missed this when you first put it up

I don't see how, using even the most liberal interpretation how this could in anyway be associated with 'Atlantis'.

I believe my original question (which I will re-phrase) was what was the name for the west not (in your belief Atlantis) one but the 'regular' old west?

Hanslune,

In the New Kingdom (and the Book of the Dead) the first region west of Egypt was called Net Ra.

In regard to Atlantis, its worth recalling that Critias says the "name" Atlantis was intentionally fabricated, as either a red-herring or a straw-man. So to unravel the story, we have to follow the Egyptian themes that Critias (or Plato) has turned into a syncretic story.

In the storyline of Timaeus and Critias, the plot goes like this:

A senior Egyptian priest was speaking around 570 BC, and he said (roughly paraphrased) "I have some vignettes and a stack of old written documents in our Egyptian library. Let me describe them for you, and give you a gist of what they mean".

In recent posts, I only discussed one theme, from Egypt's Middle Kingdom. It corresponded to the phase when Critias says Atlantis had no ships, harbors, or shipping. But the Egyptian theme was developed more fully in Egypt's New Kingdom.

However, if you check out the size of region that the Middle Kingdom Coffin Texts were discussing (1000 iteru long and 1000 iteru wide, west of Egypt) -- you will see that the region easily extended much farther west than Iberia and Morocco, where Critias/Plato gives geographical markers for part of Atlantis.

Edited June 27, 2015 by atalante

[Hanslune]

Hanslune,

In the New Kingdom (and the Book of the Dead) the first region west of Egypt was called Net Ra.

\\Thanks

[kmt_sesh]

Sorry Atlante I missed this when you first put it up

I don't see how, using even the most liberal interpretation how this could in anyway be associated with 'Atlantis'.

I believe my original question (which I will re-phrase) was what was the name for the west not (in your belief Atlantis) one but the 'regular' old west?

There is no association with Atlantis. Atalante appears to be clutching at an ancient Egyptian generic word for "west" as somehow referring to a land incredibly distant to the west (i.e., Atlantis). I've seen this done numerous times by alternative-history writers but, of course, there is no evidentiary basis for it.

The Egyptians had numerous different words to refer to the west, up to including terms relevant to sailing and the "west side" of something. They all tend to have the same root: imn. In fact, imn is one of the general words for "west." In his earlier post Atalante referenced "Amentet," which is a variant spelling of Imentet (transliterated imntt). "Amentent" is kind of an outdated rendering and seems to be favored by the alternative sect, perhaps because the leading "A" works better with the name Atlantis. But it's a fussy point in the end because we really don't know how the vowels functioned in the ancient term imntt (all of the characters in this transliteration are actually consonants and weak consonants).

It so happens that imntt is also a common ancient word for the west. So is imnt. It can be used generically to refer to the direction west, but is also common as a term for the direction of the underworld. In fact, there was a goddess named imntt who personified the underworld. The flacon standard atop her head was a common determinative in the hieroglyphic spelling for this usage of the word.

Atalante's earlier post (#81) presented a lot of information which was very short on accuracy in describing usage in the ancient language. There is no evidence that "Land of the West" was an ancient Egyptian term for Atlantis, which, as I've stressed, was not part of the ancient Egyptian tradition. We're talking primarily about the Middle Kingdom and to a lesser extent about the New Kingdom, so I am not aware of any records from either of these periods which refer to the Atlantic as the "Western Ocean." In all probability, in these time periods, Egyptians had little to no awareness of the Atlantic. They would've known the eastern Mediterranean and the western Red Sea.

It's a tactic of alternative writers to make mention of "ancient Egyptian records" to support almost any premise, no matter how off the mark. It's convenient to throw out such a ready and convincing term and leave it at that. But what exactly are the records in reference? Exactly which inscription or text? Who performed the translation, when, and where can it be found?

Basically, there is too much understood about the ancient language and its usage and subtleties to make up unsupported themes that can survive scrutiny. The Atlantis tale is unrealistic on all fronts on the face of it, and the unarguable fact is, no hint of it can be found in the pharaonic tradition.

[Hanslune]

There is no association with Atlantis. Atalante appears to be clutching at an ancient Egyptian generic word for "west" as somehow referring to a land incredibly distant to the west (i.e., Atlantis). I've seen this done numerous times by alternative-history writers but, of course, there is no evidentiary basis for it.

The Egyptians had numerous different words to refer to the west, up to including terms relevant to sailing and the "west side" of something. They all tend to have the same root: imn. In fact, imn is one of the general words for "west." In his earlier post Atalante referenced "Amentet," which is a variant spelling of Imentet (transliterated imntt). "Amentent" is kind of an outdated rendering and seems to be favored by the alternative sect, perhaps because the leading "A" works better with the name Atlantis. But it's a fussy point in the end because we really don't know how the vowels functioned in the ancient term imntt (all of the characters in this transliteration are actually consonants and weak consonants).

It so happens that imntt is also a common ancient word for the west. So is imnt. It can be used generically to refer to the direction west, but is also common as a term for the direction of the underworld. In fact, there was a goddess named imntt who personified the underworld. The flacon standard atop her head was a common determinative in the hieroglyphic spelling for this usage of the word.

Atalante's earlier post (#81) presented a lot of information which was very short on accuracy in describing usage in the ancient language. There is no evidence that "Land of the West" was an ancient Egyptian term for Atlantis, which, as I've stressed, was not part of the ancient Egyptian tradition. We're talking primarily about the Middle Kingdom and to a lesser extent about the New Kingdom, so I am not aware of any records from either of these periods which refer to the Atlantic as the "Western Ocean." In all probability, in these time periods, Egyptians had little to no awareness of the Atlantic. They would've known the eastern Mediterranean and the western Red Sea.

It's a tactic of alternative writers to make mention of "ancient Egyptian records" to support almost any premise, no matter how off the mark. It's convenient to throw out such a ready and convincing term and leave it at that. But what exactly are the records in reference? Exactly which inscription or text? Who performed the translation, when, and where can it be found?

Basically, there is too much understood about the ancient language and its usage and subtleties to make up unsupported themes that can survive scrutiny. The Atlantis tale is unrealistic on all fronts on the face of it, and the unarguable fact is, no hint of it can be found in the pharaonic tradition.

a big yep!

[atalante]

There is no association with Atlantis. Atalante appears to be clutching at an ancient Egyptian generic word for "west" as somehow referring to a land incredibly distant to the west (i.e., Atlantis). I've seen this done numerous times by alternative-history writers but, of course, there is no evidentiary basis for it.

The Egyptians had numerous different words to refer to the west, up to including terms relevant to sailing and the "west side" of something......

Atalante's earlier post (#81) presented a lot of information which was very short on accuracy in describing usage in the ancient language. There is no evidence that "Land of the West" was an ancient Egyptian term for Atlantis, which, as I've stressed, was not part of the ancient Egyptian tradition. We're talking primarily about the Middle Kingdom and to a lesser extent about the New Kingdom, so I am not aware of any records from either of these periods which refer to the Atlantic as the "Western Ocean." In all probability, in these time periods, Egyptians had little to no awareness of the Atlantic. They would've known the eastern Mediterranean and the western Red Sea.

It's a tactic of alternative writers to make mention of "ancient Egyptian records" to support almost any premise, no matter how off the mark. It's convenient to throw out such a ready and convincing term and leave it at that. But what exactly are the records in reference? Exactly which inscription or text? Who performed the translation, when, and where can it be found?

Basically, there is too much understood about the ancient language and its usage and subtleties to make up unsupported themes that can survive scrutiny. The Atlantis tale is unrealistic on all fronts on the face of it, and the unarguable fact is, no hint of it can be found in the pharaonic tradition.

kmt_sesh,

I was using Amentet as an "example" of how Solon handled Egyptian words. Critias tells us that Solon inquired about the word elements "inside" Egyptian words, and then "translated" the separate word elements -- from an Egyptian library.

After I scrape off the names Atlas and Gadeira (which Critias tells us did not come from Egypt) -- the "Egyptian Atlantis" theme that remains is about Leucippe, "the White Hippopotamus" in the Otherworld.

In a topic titled The Sahara Desert and Plato's Atlantis, we should be paying attention to ancient Egypt's distinction between "Thisworld", as distinguished from the "Otherworld".

The AmDuat story contains ancient Egyptian metrology that allows us to locate these two concepts, and to separate them. "Thisworld" extends about 800 miles west of the Nile river. The "Otherworld" extends westward from the end of "Thisworld" -- thus begining around the Chotts of Tunisia (and westward from the Tyrhenian region on the northern side of the Mediterranean sea).

Small parts of the following quote, which I placed in brackets [], are my own clarifications to Yacov Rabinowitz's modernized translation of the AmDuat into English, and his comments about the AmDuat. My bracketed clarifications allow a small part to be extracted cleanly from the whole -- and do not abuse any of Yacov Rabinowitz's comments.

quoting Rabinowitz from: https://ia801406.us..../1MD8-11-07.pdf

page 12:

Another difference in my work is the way I view the relation of the

text to its pictures. The Amduat is preserved in copiously illustrated

versions on the interior walls of tombs in the Valley of the Kings. The

images are so beautiful, strange and apparently coherent, that they have

so far imposed upon all researchers. I suggest here that the illustrations

are not — despite their appearance — programmatic maps of the

afterworld. Rather, they seem to have an entirely tributary relation to the

text.

I believe that the text here is an epic poem describing the sun’s night

journey.

[in regard to the 1st hour of Ra's journey, crossing the region named "Net Ra".]

page 26:

When Ra sails down the western sky into the underworld, Seth rises

at the prow of the ship, ready to defend him. Seth faces whatever menace

may rise on the western horizon.

Ra’s boat will travel 800 miles down this vestibule of Hell before he

reaches the Otherworld itself.

The first place he’ll reach there is Wer-en-es.

page 38:

Text in the Middle Registers

Maat, Ra’s eternal companion, whether he crosses the skies or sounds

the depths of Hell, is here about to pull forward the Night Barque, the

boat that brings him through the gate of this hour. This hour is like an

enormous field, or like an entire city. It’s 800 miles to cross this region.

The next place Ra will reach is Wer-en-es [in the Otherworld], and that’s 2,000 miles long.

There he’ll grant expanses of fertile land to spirits loyal to him.

As for this hour where we are now, it’s called “Waters of Ra,” [i.e. Net-Ra] and it is

watched over by a spirit (name obsc.).

endquote

Edited June 29, 2015 by atalante

[Kenemet]

Set: can mean a mountainous land,

any foreign land, or the Underworld

(Inscription of Anebni, 18th Dynasty)

Good grief. Hieroglyphs from a source that apparently picked up one of Budge's books and then declared themselves an expert. That sole symbol is an ideogram that was sometimes used as symbols, but meant "the previous word was a name of a distant land." It's also found as an ideogram for these words: fnXu (name for the Syrian people), km wr (the Bitter Lakes), imtt (the Lands of the West), wHyt (village), wrdt (region), warat (desert plateau), Baxw (name of a region of Egypt (to the east)), Dsrt (desert), the names of Medja and Mittani (lands under Egypt to the north and east) and in the name of a fortress called The Roads of Horus.

Amentet: can mean West, Land of the West, or Underworld (Funeral Stele of Panehesi, 19th Dynasty)

Not all of those places are the same. Treating them as a single location is wrong.

Now the "Land of the West" would be a natural Egyptian name for Atlantis. Ancient Egyptian records sometimes refer to the Atlantic as the "Western Ocean".....

Notice that the writer doesn't give any proof of this statement.

The Egyptians often appear to distinguish between Amentet (the opposite side of the world where the sun makes its return to the east) and Tuat (the realm of the dead, that of departed spirits), yet Egyptologists arbitrarily translate either glyph as "underworld". Amentet combines the glyph for "foreign land" (using set as a determinative for "land" or "country") alongside standard glyphs for "west", meaning "Land of the West". The "land" (set) determinative is entirely missing in Tuat, which I consider of more than minor significance.

Actually, they don't use them interchangeably or arbitrarily. Budge might, but Egyptologists don't. And the writer apparently doesn't read any form of Egyptian or hieroglyphs.

This does not stop the writer from commenting on this section from a Middle Kingdom Coffin Text and reducing an entire page of writing to one poorly done observation that makes their lack of understanding very plain.

I suggest that you avoid using that site as a reference for any arguments.

[Hanslune]

I suggest that you avoid using that site as a reference for any arguments.

....but, but it says stuff he can use!

[Kenemet]

I was using Amentet as an "example" of how Solon handled Egyptian words. Critias tells us that Solon inquired about the word elements "inside" Egyptian words, and then "translated" the separate word elements -- from an Egyptian library.

Okay... so here's a Big Question for you: Critias wrote a lot of plays and elegies and poetry. Why didn't he mention Atlantis (a story that was supposedly inspiring in its identification of Athens as The Savior of The World) during a time of political crisis? Why write about Sysiphus when he could have named an Athenian hero and shown how he overcame tragedy (or the hero's tragic death) in fighting off Atlantis? Why didn't Critias himself write about the Egyptian story?

Better yet, where are the mention of Solon's writing about Atlantis? Here was a story where good triumphed over corruption - a topic he was ALWAYS writing about. He was heavily invested in a number of political themes that are touched on in the dialogue -- yet there is no mention of any of his writings mentioning Atlantis (a perfect setting for his political writings, according to Plato's tale.)

After I scrape off the names Atlas and Gadeira (which Critias tells us did not come from Egypt) -- the "Egyptian Atlantis" theme that remains is about Leucippe, "the White Hippopotamus" in the Otherworld.

Leucippe is a female name, and it's Greek (as we all know).

In Egyptian mythology, the white hippopotamus is emblematic of Set (uncle of Horus, brother of Osiris, son of Geb and Nut) and was not associated with Atlantis. He was associated with storms and chaos and desert lands, not Advanced Civilizations Trying To Take Over The World.

The "Otherworld" extends westward from the end of "Thisworld" -- thus begining around the Chotts of Tunisia (and westward from the Tyrhenian region on the northern side of the Mediterranean sea).

As Kmt_Sesh says, the gates to the Otherworld are at the sunset; the otherworld itself is below ground (see the journey through the Caverns in the Book of the Caverns.)

Small parts of the following quote, which I placed in brackets [], are my own clarifications to Yacov Rabinowitz's modernized translation of the AmDuat into English, and his comments about the AmDuat. My bracketed clarifications allow a small part to be extracted cleanly from the whole -- and do not abuse any of Yacov Rabinowitz's comments.

Like Hornung, I have some problems with Rabinowitz's text.

First... I'm not seeing any credentials that he's an Egyptologist in spite of his saying that he's one. Second, I'm not seeing any Egyptologists citing him or evidence that he's presented any papers anywhere. I realize this does not necessarily mean he did not study Egyptology, but I did wonder about his credentials. Third, he doesn't say WHICH book he's translating. There are several - none of the ones I'm familiar with are called "the book of what's in hell". http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/underworld.htm

I'm also bothered from the very first that the hieroglyphs on the scenelets he shows do NOT match the hieroglyphs and translations right under the pictures.

He seems to be summarizing other summaries (which is not a problem, really) and turning it into poetry, but in spite of his putting up pictures from ...something... and hieroglyphic texts from ...somewhere... the two don't actually match. This makes me highly suspicious of any attempts at interpretation he's doing.

No opinion about the reliability of this text, but I think other texts would be better used in any discussion.

[atalante]

Okay... so here's a Big Question for you: Critias wrote a lot of plays and elegies and poetry. Why didn't he mention Atlantis (a story that was supposedly inspiring in its identification of Athens as The Savior of The World) during a time of political crisis? Why write about Sysiphus when he could have named an Athenian hero and shown how he overcame tragedy (or the hero's tragic death) in fighting off Atlantis? Why didn't Critias himself write about the Egyptian story?

Better yet, where are the mention of Solon's writing about Atlantis? Here was a story where good triumphed over corruption - a topic he was ALWAYS writing about. He was heavily invested in a number of political themes that are touched on in the dialogue -- yet there is no mention of any of his writings mentioning Atlantis (a perfect setting for his political writings, according to Plato's tale.)

Leucippe is a female name, and it's Greek (as we all know).

In Egyptian mythology, the white hippopotamus is emblematic of Set (uncle of Horus, brother of Osiris, son of Geb and Nut) and was not associated with Atlantis. He was associated with storms and chaos and desert lands, not Advanced Civilizations Trying To Take Over The World.

As Kmt_Sesh says, the gates to the Otherworld are at the sunset; the otherworld itself is below ground (see the journey through the Caverns in the Book of the Caverns.)

Like Hornung, I have some problems with Rabinowitz's text.

First... I'm not seeing any credentials that he's an Egyptologist in spite of his saying that he's one. Second, I'm not seeing any Egyptologists citing him or evidence that he's presented any papers anywhere. I realize this does not necessarily mean he did not study Egyptology, but I did wonder about his credentials. Third, he doesn't say WHICH book he's translating. There are several - none of the ones I'm familiar with are called "the book of what's in hell". http://www.touregypt.../underworld.htm

I'm also bothered from the very first that the hieroglyphs on the scenelets he shows do NOT match the hieroglyphs and translations right under the pictures.

He seems to be summarizing other summaries (which is not a problem, really) and turning it into poetry, but in spite of his putting up pictures from ...something... and hieroglyphic texts from ...somewhere... the two don't actually match. This makes me highly suspicious of any attempts at interpretation he's doing.

No opinion about the reliability of this text, but I think other texts would be better used in any discussion.

kenemet,

You put a lot of effort into your replies. I appreciate that effort, because you are aiming to improve my posts.

If I knew a better website for demonstrating what Critias says was Solon's approach (translating word-elements inside Egyptian words), I would have used a better website. Can you show me a website that gives a good example of "the method of translation", which the Critias dialogue says Solon performed?

In regard to themes of the person Critias:

He was well-known for writing about "constitutions" (i.e. histories) of communities.

quote from: http://www.iep.utm.edu/critias/#H7

Critias was one of the first to write histories of individual city states. It is likely that Xenophon used and perhaps even imitated Critias in the writing of his own "Constitution of the Lacedaemonians," although he never says as much. It is also possible, if not certain, that Aristotle used Critias' work in the composition of his "constitutions" of the Greek city-states, but this too must remain an open question.

endquote

There are, however, some points I want to correct in your reply.

regarding male vs female:

Seth was a male hippopotamus (depicted with reddish color). By contrast, white hippoptami were females, and were regarded as good. Taweret was a female hippopotamus, and she was one of the most revered goddesses in Egypt. Taweret was, in effect, the "mother" goddess.

regarding Leukippe (in Greek language): Most lands were named in feminine gender. For example, the word Atlantis is in feminine gender. Leukippe meant Leuk- (white) + hippe (horse). Also, Leukippe was a watery-okeanid (therefore close to a water-horse/potamus-hippe). Leukippe is a direct translation into Greek, from the Egyptian goddess name "white hippopotamus".

quote from: http://www.theoi.com.../Okeanides.html

LEUKE An Okeanis named "the white" who was loved by Haides god of the underworld. She was transformed into the white poplar tree of the blessed Elysian Fields.

LEUKIPPE The Okeanis "White-Horse" was probably the Nephele or Aura of fast moving clouds, or the Naias of a frothy white spring or mountain stream. Winds and waters were often compared to horses.

endquote

Rabonowitz was translating Amduat; in his title, he has substituted the word "hell" for "underworld".

quote from: http://www.touregypt.../underworld.htm

Amduat (Called by the Egyptians, the Book of the Secret Chamber): As mentioned above, this book is the earliest of all funerary text, and documents the sun god's journey through the 12 divisions of the underworld, beginning on the western horizon and reappearing as Kehpri

, the newborn sun in the East. They correspond to the 12 hours of the night. Amduat can be interpreted to mean, "That Which Is in the Underworld".

endquote

Regarding Amduat as the sun's nightly journey:

This nightly journey of the sun has been popularized and discussed in some German language articles.

quote from:

http://www.academia....ts_of_the_Earth

Some fifteen years ago Christian Leitz claimed that the dimensions recorded in the different regions of the underworld in the Amduat, a funerary book depicting the sun god's nocturnal journey on the walls of New Kingdom tombs (ca. 1500-1000 BCE), may have derived from a prior measurement of the earth's circumference (Leitz 1991, 101-104).

endquote

Some, but not all, recent English commentaries on Amduat accept the "nightly journey" theme of Amduat. Here is one English commentary which does accept the "nightly journey" around the world.

http://www.cartograp...dfs/es2_pdf.pdf

All modern versions of the Amduat include a dimensional scheme that extends into the "otherworld/underworld". Net-Ra is an antechamber that fills 120 iteru (800 miles). Next comes the Amduat region named Wer-en-nes, which extends 309 iteru (2000 miles) into the "otherworld".

The ancient texts of Amduat say what they say.

It is evident that Diodorus Siculus described the Wer-en-nes region as a territory of "Uranus".

Plato's Critias and Diodorus Siculus are both indicating that traditional Greek mythology (ca. 600 BC) treats "the known world" as extending farther west than what had been described in the 1500 BC story, Amduat. Mythical Heracles was said to travel farther west, compared to what had been the 1500 BC limits of Egyptian geography, when Amduat was first written. This simple paradigm shift (about the "end of the known world") is being exploited in the legend of Atlantis.

Edited June 30, 2015 by atalante