The Sahara Desert and Plato's Atlantis

[Kenemet]

kenemet,

You put a lot of effort into your replies. I appreciate that effort, because you are aiming to improve my posts.

If I knew a better website for demonstrating what Critias says was Solon's approach (translating word-elements inside Egyptian words), I would have used a better website. Can you show me a website that gives a good example of "the method of translation", which the Critias dialogue says Solon performed?

Sorry. My field of study is Egyptology. I know darn near nothing about the Greeks, so I assume this would be your provenance.

In regard to themes of the person Critias:

(trimmed commentary that reflected what I had originally said about him, that his writings were well known and he was among other things a writer about the topic of constitutions)

The above is well-known. So again, why didn't he use examples from the story of Atlantis in his writings?

regarding male vs female:

Seth was a male hippopotamus (depicted with reddish color).

He's the white hippo. In Egyptian art, Set has white skin no matter what his shape. Tauret is always shown as being reddish in color: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taweret

regarding Leukippe (text from my sources deleted)

Yes, indeed... however, none of that applies to Set nor was it ever associated with Atlantis.

Rabonowitz was translating Amduat; in his title, he has substituted the word "hell" for "underworld".

quote from: http://www.touregypt.../underworld.htm

Amduat (Called by the Egyptians, the Book of the Secret Chamber): As mentioned above, this book is the earliest of all funerary text, and documents the sun god's journey through the 12 divisions of the underworld, beginning on the western horizon and reappearing as Kehpri

, the newborn sun in the East. They correspond to the 12 hours of the night. Amduat can be interpreted to mean, "That Which Is in the Underworld".

Thank you. I was wondering, however, WHICH book of the Amduat he was translating or if he was using someone else's already-done translation and just rearranging that.

Some fifteen years ago Christian Leitz claimed that the dimensions recorded in the different regions of the underworld in the Amduat, a funerary book depicting the sun god's nocturnal journey on the walls of New Kingdom tombs (ca. 1500-1000 BCE), may have derived from a prior measurement of the earth's circumference (Leitz 1991, 101-104).

Interesting. Not terribly convincing, mind you, but interesting.

Some, but not all, recent English commentaries on Amduat accept the "nightly journey" theme of Amduat. Here is one English commentary which does accept the "nightly journey" around the world. http://www.cartograp...dfs/es2_pdf.pdf

Okay... I know I'm being a bit of a snob, here, but there's a world of difference between "somebody writing a paper" and "somebody with a degree in the area writing a paper for other people who have degrees and if they get one jot or tittle dead wrong those other somebodies are going to come down on them like a ton of bricks."

The "somebody wrote a paper in English" (particularly with the rather arch Victorian spelling of Egypt and the red title sections) is meaningless in this age of Everybody Can Be An Expert.

All modern versions of the Amduat include a dimensional scheme that extends into the "otherworld/underworld". Net-Ra is an antechamber that fills 120 iteru (800 miles). Next comes the Amduat region named Wer-en-nes, which extends 309 iteru (2000 miles) into the "otherworld".

The ancient texts of Amduat say what they say.

Mmmkay. I haven't looked at this document in much detail. I'll see if I can find translated sections to read.

It is evident that Diodorus Siculus described the Wer-en-nes region as a territory of "Uranus".

Where was this, please?

Plato's Critias and Diodorus Siculus are both indicating that traditional Greek mythology (ca. 600 BC) treats "the known world" as extending farther west than what had been described in the 1500 BC story, Amduat.

The Amduat doesn't describe the world. They did have names for things far in the West (Lybia and beyond) The Amduat does not include Lybia.

[Kenemet]

...and I still have problems with a document that presents Egyptian images and can't match the hieroglyphs to the text on the images.

[Robert Baird]

The Great Pyramid - Hoax and Theft

Malta and The Egyptian Savants:

Was it necessary to invade Egypt in order to gain access to the knowledge in the region and specifically on the Giza Plateau? Could the collectors and other insulated or perverted power-mongers of Europe really have been willing to rape and pillage these treasures through the use of war? I feel if it were only a matter of study the best place to do it would be in the region itself with the approval of the local authorities. Of course we have been lead to believe that people in other parts of the world were barbarians or uninformed about their own past. There is some truth in that, but that could also be said about the people of Europe and America who buy the propaganda and lies or religions that their leaders have used to get more power including the wars and other things we are addressing in this book. I understand this is a major statement I am making.

The museums of England and France are full of stolen goods! The savants really did little more than record the seized goods and the Rosetta Stone and other subsequent researches that we have been made more than merely aware of are not as important as the academics would like to believe or these academics are in on the thefts that included destruction of many great pieces of work. Good Englishmen galore would cut huge art-reliefs out of the sides of buildings or mountains. Sometimes when things could not be taken they would try to blow them up. Napoleon’s men (for example) dynamited the Great Pyramid but saw it would be too large a job. Academics like Mark Lehner and Zahi Hawass are still telling lies like the ones about a make-work program or the Pyramids at Giza were tombs for Pharaohs. Lehner would have us believe “Napoleon's Wise Men Belzoni and Caviglia {were} Digging by Dynamite”. (7) Their involvement with the Edgar Cayce Foundation and Association for Research and Enlightenment (ARE) is something I have dealt with before. Suffice it to say Cayce was a Mason as was his father.

I believe the original builders of the Giza Complex were the very Jacobins or Stuart BEES and Merovingians that Napoleon took directions from. The extent to which they create wars like the French and American Revolutions to de-populate and confuse the average person is probably the most heinous continuing program that humanity has ever witnessed. Stuart historians trace their family back 20,000 years to the Saharan Berbers or Sea Peoples and the title of the Ptolemaic Pharaohs still included their names like Isis Pelasgi. Pelasgi has to do with Sea People. They knew about their ancient ancestor Isis.

The Ashmolean Museum still has five dodecahedron sculpted rocks dated to 1400 BCE which these people knew the Pyramid was a major part of in an ancient Earth Energy Grid System. Ashmole was a major Mason or alchemist in the Rosicrucian Royal Society. There also were many in their midst who knew Hebrew was a secret or sacerdotal Code just as the Mason Conor MacDari proved in his 1923 book called Irish Wisdom. But it was not until the mid-1990s that you would find academics agreeing that Hebrew is derived from Phoenician. I have many books and lots of research to back up these accusations which include the words of Winston Churchill (The Island Race) admitting they used The Black Plague to de-populate Europe. The hieroglyphic writings were not advanced language for the people and in 2001 Associated Press reported an earlier and more advanced common alphabet found in the Sahara. Flinders-Petrie wrote about such a language in his book The Formation of the Alphabet even before MacDari blew the whistle on his fellow Masons.

The Britannica even admits that Napoleon’s visit to Malta was a mysterious event. They could see that Napoleon was given Malta (British controlled like the rest of the Mediterranean Sea he had to travel through and keep supplies coming from). The treasures of Malta included some of the corporate booty that enterprises like Solomon’s had been gathering for many millennia of worldwide secret trade.

Not that I buy all this link is saying but reading about aliens here has me wondering how deep the brainwashing has gone.

http://www.terrorism-illuminati.com/...a#.VOAb3m93vIU

The three main pyramids were not built by the people we are told built them as Mr. Temple says. Those pharaohs (If they were such a thing) usurped the pyramids to aggrandize themselves as almost every pharaoh (grave robber) did after them. The Great Pyramid of Iesa had not a miniscule molecule of human remains according to the American Research Center in Egypt who sent as much interior dust and such as they could find to Zurich to be tested in a Mass accelerator.

I quote Temple herewith.

"This is the ‘mini-king list’ of a succession of pharaohs of the 4th Dynasty found carved on a cliff at Wadi Hammamat in the Eastern Desert of Egypt, between the Nile and the Red Sea. The kings’ names go from right to left in historical sequence, and there are five of them, each in a royal cartouche. The first one, with the little chick, broken at the top, is the name of King Khufu, better known to us as King Cheops (the Greek version of his name). Next, to the left of him, is the name of King Radjedef, who is these days generally known as Djedefre. He was the first known pharaoh to incorporate the name of the sun god, Ra or Re, in his name. It is symbolised by the solar disc at the top, and the succeeding pharaohs to the left of him all used it as well. To the left of him is King Raqaf, these days generally known amongst Egyptologists as Khafre, and to the ordinary person as Chephren (the Greek version of his name). Egyptologists disagree amongst themselves as to whether the ‘Ra’ or ‘Re’ should really pronounced at the beginning of the name, as it is written, or whether it was only written there out of respect, and should really be pronounced at the end. The next king to the left is King Ra-Hordjedef, and the last on the left is King Ra-Biuf, or Biufre (the Greek version of his name being Bikheris). This important early list of kings was first discovered in 1949 by Fernand Debono. This list emphasises the fact that a little-known pharaoh intervened in the succession between Cheops and Chephren, and that two other pharaohs who are even less well known intervened between Chephren and Mycerinus, who is not even mentioned here. This evidence is awkward for those who advocate the theory that the three main pyramids of Giza were built by three kings in succession as their tombs, namely Cheops, Chephren, and Mycerinus. (from Etienne Drioton, ‘Une Liste de Rois de la IV Dynastie dans l’Ouadi Hammamat’, Bulletin de la Société Français d’Égyptologie, Number 16, October 1954, pp. 41-9.)"

[Hanslune]

Deletde a whole lot of 'out of whole cloth'

Well hi and er bye!

Edited July 1, 2015 by Hanslune

[atalante]

I have demonstrated previously that Plato's name Leukippe (for the autochthon who originally ruled Atlantis, before Poseidon arrived) is a direct translation of the Egyptian name White Hippopotamus.

Therefore, now seems like a convenient time to comment on what modern archaeology knows about the Feast of the "White Hippopotamus".

The Amduat story reached its peak interest during the reigns of Hatsheptsut and her ward Thutmose III. At that time, both Hatshepsut and Thutmose III built chapels for the White Hippopotamus in prominent places.

Thutmose III built his chapel of the White Hippopotamus in the main temple of Amun at Karnak.

http://www.touregypt...t/karnak812.jpg

On the touregypt website, the following words accompany the above image:

In the next chapel to the east, on the northern wall beginning to the west, we first find a scene depicting the Feast of the White Hippopotamus", which is very rare. Only one other example of this ceremony is known, from a fragment of a Saite period artifact now in the Brussels Museum. Here, the king wears the red crown and holds a baton and the white club in his hands. He wears a long ribbon hanging from his left shoulder.

In back of the king are the two half-heavens that accompany the scene of the "great stride". Before him are two small dancing figures surmounted by the name of a city, and above that is a hammered-out hippopotamus with a brief caption recording the "Feast of the White [Hippopotamus]. It should be noted that the red, male Sethien hippopotamus, who was an enemy of Horus, must be distinguished from the white, female hippopotamus that here is a symbol of Apet.

endquote

Thutmose III conquered about 10 times as much territory in Sudan, contrasted to what Egypt's Middle Kingdom had controlled. And from that point on, both the New Kingdom and the Third Intermediate Period became obsessed with the notion that Egypt's god Amun had originated at Jebel Barkal, which is located at the southern edge of territory that Thutmose III conquered in Sudan. https://en.wikipedia...n,_Jebel_Barkal

The rise of Egyptian interest in Jebel Barkal was accompanied by a corresponding decline of Egyptian interest in the Feast of the White Hippopotamus.

However, when Egypt's Saite dynasty arose, by throwing off Egypt's southern rulers, interest in the Feast of the White Hippopotamus revived.

pages 22-26 in the following link (from the Boston Museum of Fine Arts) discuss the White Hippopotamus and her feast.

http://gizapyramids....1992_17to26.pdf

The red slip found on the pottery hippos made them ideal as representations

of Seth, who was known as the “red one,” a color of e v i l .

The bound figures of the hippos then were a magical depiction of the

deceased’s victory over the forces of evil in the same way as in the

earlier reliefs of the king hunting his wild prey.

Not all of the hippo figurines need be equated with Seth, however.

A few reliefs and texts allude to a ceremony known as the “white hippopotamus

festival.” Depictions of this obscure ceremony show a hippopotamus

standing on a sledge (fig. 8). In these renderings, however,

the animal is not shown bound to the sledge and does not seem to be

hunted. Indeed as Save-Södeberghh as pointed out: “it seems as if the

king does reverence to the goddess [ie. the white hippopotamus]. The

ritual background can . . . be interpreted as a rejoicing at the appearance

of the sacred animal with the rare sacred white color.” In much the

same way, finding a bull with the correct markings indicated it as the

sacred Apis bull to the Egyptians.

The distinction between the “good hippopotamus” and the “bad

hippopotamus’! may also be due to gender. Sexual dimorphism in Egyptian

deities is common, and while the male hippopotamus might be

feared as a ferocious wild beast, the female could be honored for her

devotion to her young. Relief scenes show female hippos holding their

young aloft to keep them safe from the hungry jaws of the Nile

crocodile.

A fine white limestone figurine, now in the Metropolitan Museum

of Art, can be seen as an example of the “good hippopotamus” (fig. 9 ) .

The image of the white hippo could also be used as a protective icon,

as can be demonstrated by a small gold amulet in the collection of the

Museum of Fine Arts (fig. 10). It shows a hippo standing on a square

of gold which could be a sledge or a mat. It might also be suggested

that it belongs to the Middle Kingdom.

The colors white and gold were symbolic of goodness and purity to

the Egyptians and the white stone or gold hippos were intended to

depict the good qualities of the mother hippopotamus. Conversely, the

red pottery ones represented the raging bull hippopotamus.

The blue faience hippos, however, seem to combine both natures of the animal.

There are indications of ropes tied around some, and they are often

shown crouched down as if bound or with their heads turned and their

mouths opened in a bellow with their teeth exposed as if they were

being harpooned (fig. 11). They were also often broken, to ritually

“kill” them, a device to protect the tomb owner from encountering

them in the next life.

endquote

Edited July 1, 2015 by atalante

[Kenemet]

I have demonstrated previously that Plato's name Leukippe (for the autochthon who originally ruled Atlantis, before Poseidon arrived) is a direct translation of the Egyptian name White Hippopotamus.

Actually, Leukippe means "white horse." Not "white river horse." In other known contexts, it doesn't stand for hippopotamus. The earliest Greek name for them seems to be the very cumbersome "ho hippos ho potamios"

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hippopotamus

The Feast of the White Hippopotamus is really something that we don't know much about. Interestingly, in the chapel where it's depicted, the figure of the hippo has been hammered out (desecrated) - although we don't know who did this, one interpretation is that it's a reference to Set -- though I acknowledge the point that red hippos (as well as white ones) apparently referred to Set.

The rise of Egyptian interest in Jebel Barkal was accompanied by a corresponding decline of Egyptian interest in the Feast of the White Hippopotamus.

Actually, that's not supported. The "feast" wasn't that widely done and may not have been that old and many other things might have contributed to the loss of interest in the feast.

pages 22-26 in the following link (from the Boston Museum of Fine Arts) discuss the White Hippopotamus and her feast.

http://gizapyramids....1992_17to26.pdf

Thank you for the link -- more stuff to read!

But there's still no link between a "world civilization that conquered everyone until Athens stopped them" and a hippoptamus or Egypt. Nor is there any mention of areas that are like Atlantis anywhere in known Egyptian records.

[Hanslune]

Actually, Leukippe means "white horse." Not "white river horse." In other known contexts, it doesn't stand for hippopotamus. The earliest Greek name for them seems to be the very cumbersome "ho hippos ho potamios"

http://www.etymonlin...rm=hippopotamus

The Feast of the White Hippopotamus is really something that we don't know much about. Interestingly, in the chapel where it's depicted, the figure of the hippo has been hammered out (desecrated) - although we don't know who did this, one interpretation is that it's a reference to Set -- though I acknowledge the point that red hippos (as well as white ones) apparently referred to Set.

Actually, that's not supported. The "feast" wasn't that widely done and may not have been that old and many other things might have contributed to the loss of interest in the feast.

Thank you for the link -- more stuff to read!

But there's still no link between a "world civilization that conquered everyone until Athens stopped them" and a hippoptamus or Egypt. Nor is there any mention of areas that are like Atlantis anywhere in known Egyptian records.

That is I believe the reason Atlante qualified the information as 'not perfect'.

[atalante]

Actually, Leukippe means "white horse." Not "white river horse." In other known contexts, it doesn't stand for hippopotamus. The earliest Greek name for them seems to be the very cumbersome "ho hippos ho potamios"

http://www.etymonlin...rm=hippopotamus

The Feast of the White Hippopotamus is really something that we don't know much about. Interestingly, in the chapel where it's depicted, the figure of the hippo has been hammered out (desecrated) - although we don't know who did this, one interpretation is that it's a reference to Set -- though I acknowledge the point that red hippos (as well as white ones) apparently referred to Set.

Actually, that's not supported. The "feast" wasn't that widely done and may not have been that old and many other things might have contributed to the loss of interest in the feast.

Thank you for the link -- more stuff to read!

But there's still no link between a "world civilization that conquered everyone until Athens stopped them" and a hippoptamus or Egypt. Nor is there any mention of areas that are like Atlantis anywhere in known Egyptian records.

Kenemet,

I see you had a moment of early-onset alzheimers. Mythical Poseidon's horses were hippocampi (horse-monsters).

quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocampus_(mythology)

In Hellenistic and Roman imagery, however, Poseidon (or Roman Neptune) often drives a sea-chariot drawn by hippocampi. Thus hippocampi sport with this god in both ancient depictions and much more modern ones, such as in the waters of the 18th-century Trevi Fountain in Rome surveyed by Neptune from his niche above.

The appearance of hippocampi in both freshwater and saltwater is counter-intuitive to a modern audience, though not to an ancient one. endquote

As we might expect, Thutmose III shared his view of the Feast of the White Hippopotamus with his own mother.

Hatsheptut's Deir el-Bahri temple reused themes from the Old and Middle Kingdoms, including the Feast of the White Hippopotamus.

quoting from;

http://www.academia.edu/9924030/A._%C4%86wiek_Old_and_Middle_Kingdom_Tradition_in_the_Temple_of_Hatshepsut_at_Deir_el-_Bahari_Etudes_et_Travaux_27_pp._61-93

On pages 72-75, (and footnote 67)

LOWER PORTICOS

The position of various scenes and motifs within the temple referred to the Old and Middle Kingdom mortuary temples.....

Northern Lower Portico ('Mythological Portico')

....Another scene from the Mythological Portico representing the Feast of the White Hippopotamus (Hb-Hdt) is one of the rare occurances of this theme. (*67)

endquote

Edited July 2, 2015 by atalante

[Kenemet]

Kenemet,

I see you had a moment of early-onset alzheimers. Mythical Poseidon's horses were hippocampi (horse-monsters).

quote from: https://en.wikipedia...mpus_(mythology)

Still, hippopotami and hippocampi are not the same, and neither has an attested link to Leucippe.

As we might expect, Thutmose III shared his view of the Feast of the White Hippopotamus with his own mother.

Hatsheptut's Deir el-Bahri temple reused themes from the Old and Middle Kingdoms, including the Feast of the White Hippopotamus.

She's not actually his mother, but his stepmother (unless you meant another woman.) We don't know that he shared the view; only that he found it convenient to maintain the themes. It could well have been political.

quoting from;

http://www.academia....ux_27_pp._61-93

On pages 72-75, (and footnote 67)

While interesting, again, no tie in to a supposed kingdom that existed 8,000 years previously and that conquered every country except for Athens (which didn't exist at that time.)

[atalante]

.........She's not actually his mother, but his stepmother (unless you meant another woman.) We don't know that he shared the view; only that he found it convenient to maintain the themes. It could well have been political.

........

While interesting, again, no tie in to a supposed kingdom that existed 8,000 years previously and that conquered every country except for Athens (which didn't exist at that time.)

Kenemet,

I agree about Hatshepsut.. I should have said step-mother, instead of mother.

The "8000/9000 years" is just a speed-bump on the road to understanding Atlantis. Puzzler would say Plato put it there to make you think.

Critias expected his audience to understand that AFTER Zeus "chastised" the Atlanteans, their descendents will become Herodotus's noble Macrobian Ethiopians. The following are details Critias uses to drive home this point:

The Macrobians told Persia's king Cambysses that eating cereals was like eating dung. And Critias goes out of his way to describe a diet of Atlanteans, which did not include cereal grains.

The Macrobians were strong bow-warriors. And Critias was well-known to admire the Spartans, who were similarly strong warriors.

The Macrobians were noble, in that they did not want to invade their neighbors. This parallels the philosophical ideal society that Socrates had analyzed in his Republic dialogue. In the Timaeus dialogue, Socrates had given Critias an assignment to explain how skilled military leaders would supervise an idealized society.

The ending of the Critias dialogue is a deus-ex-machina -- where the gods are preparing to blast Atlantis back to its primitive state, to "chastise away" Atlantis's hybris invasions. And it is well-known, Critias felt that gods only exist to scare humans into behaving nicely.

The Macrobians had so much gold that they made prisoners wear gold-handcuffs. And Critias says Atlanteans had abundant wealth, including gold.

The Macrobians valued orochalc about the same as gold. And Critias states a similar sense of value among Atlanteans.

Last but certainly not least -- The Macrobians had a lifestyle based on the "Table of the Sun", which corresponds to the Egypt's legendary "Feast of the White Hippopotamus", which Egyptian legends located in the far west.

Some details about The Macrobians are reviewed at https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Macrobians

Edited July 3, 2015 by atalante

[Kenemet]

Kenemet,

I agree about Hatshepsut.. I should have said step-mother, instead of mother.

The "8000/9000 years" is just a speed-bump on the road to understanding Atlantis. Puzzler would say Plato put it there to make you think.

But there's no time period when a large force overwhelmed the "known world" (at least until the time of Darius) and were rebuffed by Athenians.

Critias expected his audience to understand that AFTER Zeus "chastised" the Atlanteans, their descendents will become Herodotus's noble Macrobian Ethiopians.

Point: it's not Critias who expects anything. Plato is putting words in the mouth of his literary constructs.

Second, how is this possible since Atlantis was "utterly destroyed" and there were no descendants in the tale of Plato -AND- there is no evidence that anyone knew anything about Atlantis?

The Macrobians told Persia's king Cambysses that eating cereals was like eating dung. And Critias goes out of his way to describe a diet of Atlanteans, which did not include cereal grains.

This does not seem to match the paragraph in Critias. Perhaps you can cite the specific section for me?

The Macrobians were strong bow-warriors. And Critias was well-known to admire the Spartans, who were similarly strong warriors.

Except that this is not Critias speaking, really. He'd been dead for generations by the time these dialogues were written.

The Macrobians were noble, in that they did not want to invade their neighbors. This parallels the philosophical ideal society that Socrates had analyzed in his Republic dialogue. In the Timaeus dialogue, Socrates had given Critias an assignment to explain how skilled military leaders would supervise an idealized society.

...which has nothing to do with the Atlanteans, who invaded everyone they could. And while you cite the man, Critias, the literary character (like me writing about Abraham Lincoln, for instance) is not the same as a real person. While I might write about Lincoln and even get his attitudes down correctly, that does not mean that the words I have him say are really and truly from Abraham Lincoln.

Plato cannot say (through Socrates) what any person who lived generations before truly said and thought. Critias is a literary character in the Dialogues. He is not a real person. You can't extrapolate from that, and we don't have a complete record of the real Critias' writings (heck, Plato and Socrates might not have had access to complete records, either.)

[Hanslune]

Note Spartans greatly favoured the spear and shield and left the bow to their helots.

Later Greek armies concentrated on soldiers of the phalanx, and archery seems to have been neglected, except in Crete. Contingents of archers in Greek armies were therefore often mercenaries, usually Scythians or Cretans.

Nevertheless, the importance of archery was not fully appreciated until the latter part of the Peloponnesian War, and archers were not always used effectively. In part, this may have been because Greek archers pinched the bowstring between thumb and forefinger, a weak grip that did not allow them to use the most powerful bows.

Excerpt from the bood Handbook to Life in Ancient Greece by Lesley and Roy Adkins

[atalante]

But there's no time period when a large force overwhelmed the "known world" (at least until the time of Darius) and were rebuffed by Athenians.

Point: it's not Critias who expects anything. Plato is putting words in the mouth of his literary constructs.

Second, how is this possible since Atlantis was "utterly destroyed" and there were no descendants in the tale of Plato -AND- there is no evidence that anyone knew anything about Atlantis?

This does not seem to match the paragraph in Critias. Perhaps you can cite the specific section for me?

Except that this is not Critias speaking, really. He'd been dead for generations by the time these dialogues were written.

...which has nothing to do with the Atlanteans, who invaded everyone they could. And while you cite the man, Critias, the literary character (like me writing about Abraham Lincoln, for instance) is not the same as a real person. While I might write about Lincoln and even get his attitudes down correctly, that does not mean that the words I have him say are really and truly from Abraham Lincoln.

Plato cannot say (through Socrates) what any person who lived generations before truly said and thought. Critias is a literary character in the Dialogues. He is not a real person. You can't extrapolate from that, and we don't have a complete record of the real Critias' writings (heck, Plato and Socrates might not have had access to complete records, either.)

Kenemet,

a) Critias's immediate audience is Hermocrates and Socrates, in the dialogues. Indeed in the Timaeus dialogue, Hermocrates gave permission for Critias to use this Atlantis theme as a set-up for the discussion Hermocrates will be making.

And more generally, Plato expected some classical Greeks to read Plato's dialogues -- so classical Greeks would be Plato's audience.

b ) Atlantis "settled down" -- which corresponds to modern science terms like "liquefaction", and/or being destroyed by a 'tsunami".

c) Jowett's version for Critas 115a is what I had in mind about food. Jowett says Atlanteans ate "pulses" for food. Jowett depicts Atlantis as a "fruit and nuts and pulses" society.

Jowett says (115a) "...in that land; also the fruit which admits of cultivation, both the dry sort, which is given us for nourishment and any other which we use for food -- we call them all by the common name pulse, (115b) and the fruits having a hard rhind, affording drinks and meats and ointments, and good store of chestnuts and the like...."

But the Bury translation of [115a] is much different. Obviously Plato's Greek wording in this passage is not clear-cut, since the translations are so different. (By the way, Bury incorrectly translates the Greek word "ospria" as vegetables; whereas Jowett is correct in translating ospria as "pulses".)

I was trying to create a laundry list of comparisons to the Macrobians, off the top of my mind -- without recognizing that the translation is disputed.

So I have decided to take no stand here about cereals and/or bread.

d) Everybody knows about the Sea Peoples, whom Egyptian records say were acting as mercenary troops during at least 1386-1177 BC.

http://www.salimbeti...micenei/sea.htm and

https://ospreypublis...1400-bc-1000-bc

What many people do not seem to know is Aeschylus's definition of the "Peleset" -- as "the race of Pleisthenes". In Greek myths, Pleisthenes was the product of a royal marriage between Crete and Mycenae. The mythical marriage took place shortly after Crete's king Minos was killed by Sicilians, and Crete's best bronze workers defected to Sicily. This royal marriage (and its crisis-mode posterity) corresponded to Egyptian comments that the Sea Peoples made a conspiracy in their islands.

e) Critias lived after Herodotus. Therefore Plato could easily write a dialogue in which Critias gets some inspiration from the writings of Herodotus.

Moreover, no one disputes that Herodotus got his information about the Macrobians from some people of Egypt. Therefore even if Plato was inventing the speeches by Critias, it would still be true that Plato could get inspiration from Herodotus's passage about Macrobians -- and Plato could declare that a core part of the Atlantis story came from Egypt.

Edited July 4, 2015 by atalante

[Hanslune]

Atlante

What is the source for this please:

Moreover, no one disputes that Herodotus got his information about the Macrobians from some people of Egypt.

[Kenemet]

a) Critias's immediate audience is Hermocrates and Socrates, in the dialogues. Indeed in the Timaeus dialogue, Hermocrates gave permission for Critias to use this Atlantis theme as a set-up for the discussion Hermocrates will be making.

Actually, we don't kinow this. Critias is simply someone that Plato wrote about - and (as Wikipedia says) may not even be the same man. This gathering may never have taken place, in fact. Plato did write fiction (The Cave) and morality fables when it suited him.

And more generally, Plato expected some classical Greeks to read Plato's dialogues -- so classical Greeks would be Plato's audience.

There were no such things as "classical Greeks" at his time, and books had to be hand-copied if you wanted your own copy (they would receive a wide audience as plays, however.) He might have been widely heard and widely discussed but not widely read.

b ) Atlantis "settled down" -- which corresponds to modern science terms like "liquefaction", and/or being destroyed by a 'tsunami".

There's still no physical match.

Jowett says (115a) "...in that land; also the fruit which admits of cultivation, both the dry sort, which is given us for nourishment and any other which we use for food -- we call them all by the common name pulse, (115b) and the fruits having a hard rhind, affording drinks and meats and ointments, and good store of chestnuts and the like...."

But the Bury translation of [115a] is much different. Obviously Plato's Greek wording in this passage is not clear-cut, since the translations are so different. (By the way, Bury incorrectly translates the Greek word "ospria" as vegetables; whereas Jowett is correct in translating ospria as "pulses".)

Ah - I learned something new! However, the text does not say they abhorred it or rejected wheat/corn/etc, only that it wasn't listed as what they ate.

I was trying to create a laundry list of comparisons to the Macrobians, off the top of my mind -- without recognizing that the translation is disputed.

So I have decided to take no stand here about cereals and/or bread.

d) Everybody knows about the Sea Peoples, whom Egyptian records say were acting as mercenary troops during at least 1386-1177 BC.

Indeed, but they're well-recorded and don't match anything in the story.

What many people do not seem to know is Aeschylus's definition of the "Peleset" -- as "the race of Pleisthenes". In Greek myths, Pleisthenes was the product of a royal marriage between Crete and Mycenae. The mythical marriage took place shortly after Crete's king Minos was killed by Sicilians, and Crete's best bronze workers defected to Sicily. This royal marriage (and its crisis-mode posterity) corresponded to Egyptian comments that the Sea Peoples made a conspiracy in their islands.

Okay... uhm...where is this text from Egypt?

e) Critias lived after Herodotus. Therefore Plato could easily write a dialogue in which Critias gets some inspiration from the writings of Herodotus.

Moreover, no one disputes that Herodotus got his information about the Macrobians from some people of Egypt. Therefore even if Plato was inventing the speeches by Critias, it would still be true that Plato could get inspiration from Herodotus's passage about Macrobians -- and Plato could declare that a core part of the Atlantis story came from Egypt.

We don't know this, and I think you're making some assumptions about how widely read he was. They were not local to each other, and I'm not seeing any references that Plato wrote about people from other countries.

Perhaps you could enlighten me on this?

[atalante]

Atlante

What is the source for this please:

Hanslune

How about this one?

quote from: http://www.topix.com...HG3I2UNAORTA1HO

"I went as far as Elephantine [Aswan] to see what I could with my own eyes, but for the country

still further south I had to be content with what I was told in answer to my questions. South of Elephantine the country is inhabited by Ethiopians...."

endquote

The central figures in Herodotus's story about Macrobians is -- fish-eaters from the city of Elephantine. And that story is analyzed in pages 102-115 of the following PhD Thesis:

https://cdr.lib.unc....45-fdeacc4f22ae

Edited July 5, 2015 by atalante

[Kenemet]

Hanslune

How about this one?

quote from: http://www.topix.com...HG3I2UNAORTA1HO

"I went as far as Elephantine [Aswan] to see what I could with my own eyes, but for the country

still further south I had to be content with what I was told in answer to my questions. South of Elephantine the country is inhabited by Ethiopians...."

endquote

The central figures in Herodotus's story about Macrobians is -- fish-eaters from the city of Elephantine. And that story is analyzed in pages 102-115 of the following PhD Thesis:

https://cdr.lib.unc....45-fdeacc4f22ae

Uhm... I just read that document and no Macrobians are mentioned in it.

Further, I found that depending on which source you used, they were supposedly located in a number of different placs: https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Macrobians

None of this ties in well to Timaeus and Critias nor any claims about Atlantis.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Kenemet

[atalante]

Uhm... I just read that document and no Macrobians are mentioned in it.

Further, I found that depending on which source you used, they were supposedly located in a number of different placs: https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Macrobians

None of this ties in well to Timaeus and Critias nor any claims about Atlantis.

Kenemet,

Here is what your own link says.

quote from: https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Macrobians

According to Herodotus in a latter chapter when he is describing the eastern, southern and western (Asia, Arabia, Libya) ends of the inhabited earth, he makes it known that the Macrobians dwelt the farthest towards the sunset (west) of the southern Nile river beyond the western Sahara.^[1] Herodotus also makes it known that only two tribes accomplished this long journey from the Nile river to the western ends of the earth beyond the vast desert Sahara, these two tribes were known as the Libyan Nasamones who spoke an alien language to the inhabitants and the Ichthyophagi of Elephantine who spoke the same language as the inhabitants, but Cambyses with his huge army failed to accomplish what the Nasamones and Ichthyophagi had already completed.

In conclusion, Cambyses after being insulted by the tallest and handsomest Long-Lived (Macrobian) Ethiopian King of the west, he eagerly wanted to conquer and subdue all people of Amun and destroy all temples of the God, but failed in his mad and desperate attempt. And although Cambyses had reached the deep southern realms of Meroe, he was still far away from the land of the Macrobians, who dwelt beyond the vast Sahara desert at the ends of the earth as far as the Ocean towards the western sunset.

endquote

So basically, what we have here is a story about traveling to virtual-Atlantis in the era of Cambyses -- and the story comes from Egypt.

Edited July 5, 2015 by atalante

[Hanslune]

So a story about a Persian who dies while in Egypt going to attack the Macro's to his south in Ethiopia about a century before Plato wrote his book is evidence for Atlantis?

Atlante with all due respect don't you think all this 'not perfect' evidence is just stretching stuff until it resembles taffy?

Edited July 5, 2015 by Hanslune

[Kenemet]

Kenemet,

Here is what your own link says.

quote from: https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Macrobians

According to Herodotus in a latter chapter when he is describing the eastern, southern and western (Asia, Arabia, Libya) ends of the inhabited earth, he makes it known that the Macrobians dwelt the farthest towards the sunset (west) of the southern Nile river beyond the western Sahara.^[1]

Actually, he places them in what would be southern Libya but the geographic region he describes (because mapmaking wasn't really very good back then) is close to the Horn of Africa (on the east coast.)

Herodotus also makes it known that only two tribes accomplished this long journey from the Nile river to the western ends of the earth beyond the vast desert Sahara, these two tribes were known as the Libyan Nasamones who spoke an alien language to the inhabitants and the Ichthyophagi of Elephantine who spoke the same language as the inhabitants, but Cambyses with his huge army failed to accomplish what the Nasamones and Ichthyophagi had already completed.

And, as he says, he's repeating travelers tales that are more than a century old. The "Ichthyophagi" were well known to the Egyptians - they're the Nubians and just before the time of Herodotus they ruled Egypt. And Cambysis (as was well documented) was trying to conquer Kush:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambyses_II

So basically, what we have here is a story about traveling to virtual-Atlantis in the era of Cambyses -- and the story comes from Egypt.

"Virtual Atlantis?" Kush isn't a virtual Atlantis, and the Ethiopian kingdom beyond it isn't a virtual Atlantis or any sort of Atlantis.

[Hanslune]

Insert image here of a manly muscular hand grasping a frenzied looking bunch of straw.

[atalante]

......The "Ichthyophagi" were well known to the Egyptians - they're the Nubians and just before the time of Herodotus they ruled Egypt. And Cambysis (as was well documented) was trying to conquer Kush:

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Cambyses_II

Cambysses had previously conquered Kush when he prepared for invading the western (Macrobian) Ethiopians.

The poet Homer had initiated a basic description for Ethiopians, by stating that two separate groups of Ethiopians existed -- and the two groups lived at opposite ends of Africa.

A general consensus of modern scholarship places the Macrobian Ethiopians in west Africa on the side of the setting sun (and in harmony with the short statement I quoted earlier).

The following link was a long discussion, which cited many classical sources that placed the Macrobian Ethiopians in west Africa. The topic was named: Herodotus Macrobian Ethiopians of West Africa not Somalia

http://www.egyptsear...ic;f=8;t=009051

Herodotus also presented second-hand information that the Nile river originates near the Atlas mountains, in west Africa, and allegedly flows east toward Meroe. His illusional western Nile served to rationalize a barely-understood trading network across the southern part of the Sahara desert.

Modern archaeology describes this trading-corridor as the Yellow Nile (Wadi Howar).

quote from: http://www.uni-koeln.../a2/a2_main.htm

Located at the southern fringes of the Libyan Desert, Wadi Howar is the largest dry river system in the presently hyper-arid and uninhabitable Eastern Sahara, stretching over 1,100 km from its source area in eastern Chad to the Nile. Geoscientific investigations have shown that during the early Holocene this wadi was the Nile's most important tributary from the Sahara. Later, it became a chain of freshwater lakes and marshes supported by local rainfall, until it ultimately became extinct about 2,000 years ago. A once ecologically favoured area of settlement and communication route between the inner regions of Africa and the Nile valley, Wadi Howar bears abundant prehistoric sites providing evidence of important population movements and interregional cultural contacts.

Archaeological, archaeozoological, archaeobotanical and geoscientific research in this still widely unexplored area focus on varying settlement patterns, and survival and subsistence strategies which were adopted by the human groups in order to cope with the dramatic climatic and environmental changes as well as the large-scale role of the Wadi Howar as a turntable between the Sahara, the Nile valley and the more southerly regions.

During several field campaigns between 1995 and 2006 in the Wadi Howar and the adjacent areas (see pictures and map), about 2400 archaeological sites have been discovered, providing evidence for human settlement between the 6th and 2nd millennia BCE

endquote

Herodotus states that the Macrobians were located toward the extreme west and the setting sun. If Cambysses was traveling away from Meroe in that direction, he would have sent his army upstream along the nearly-dry Yellow Nile (Wadi Howar). His army soon ran out of food and turned to cannibalism

Edited July 6, 2015 by atalante

[cern]

Cambysses had previously conquered Kush when he prepared for invading the western (Macrobian) Ethiopians.

The poet Homer had initiated a basic description for Ethiopians, by stating that two separate groups of Ethiopians existed -- and the two groups lived at opposite ends of Africa.

one group of ethiopians lived on okeanos. homer said the cimmerians lived on okeanos too so its not africa but europe.

[Mario Dantas]

Hello Cern!

How are you? It has been a long time since i last saw you.

Sorry for being such a jerk back then...

M

[cern]

Hello Cern!

How are you? It has been a long time since i last saw you.

Sorry for being such a jerk back then...

M

i don;t recall ever thinking that you were a jerk. i remember thinking that if i lived where you lived i would never spend the time on a computer you did.