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Donald Trump Enters 2016 Presidential Race


aztek

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I vote void, thats exactly right. I take that little form, do absolutely nothing to it, and dump it in the box. A vote of non- confidence. Which is the only logical action if you have - no confidence - in either of the running parties.

The last time there was a vote of no confidence the republic got stuck with Emperor Palpatine! :o

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The last time there was a vote of no confidence the republic got stuck with Emperor Palpatine! :o

If only we should be so lucky, such 'a strong leader' like Palpatine.. Pretty sure McCain would foam at the mouth just thinking about the scenario.. "Finally, our own Bibi."

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We wanted Palpatine, but we're stuck with Kylo Ren.

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Yessir, Im socially naive in pointing out the sheer stupidity of accepting your candidates / representatives lying to you on a structural basis, to subsequently feel dismayed if and when such a person doesnt follow up on the promises made during election time.

"Oh but see everybody lies in our government, so we accept it, ignore it, 'its just political reality'. With an attitude like that you dont have a chance in hell to change one iota of the present status quo, and deserve everything you're going to get.

And yet you fail to point out even one honest politician who never lies. You are just full of wind. What is that called again? Oh, yeah... self righteousness. The self righteous never change the world, those who act do.

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I vote void, thats exactly right. I take that little form, do absolutely nothing to it, and dump it in the box. A vote of non- confidence. Which is the only logical action if you have - no confidence - in either of the running parties.

So you allow yourself to be ruled without even voting against things you don't like. Fantastic. Tell me more about how non participation gets you what you want. Has it worked so far?

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he is dutch, they have constitutional monarchy , i'm not sure what voting process he is talking about

and as in all European monarchies, the Monarch has no actual power and is purely a figurehead, and the Prime Minister, who is elected by the People, and the House of representatatives and the Senate are actually in charge. (and the Netherlands has Proportional Representation so there's a lot more parties, ( see here List of political parties in the Netherlands) and power is shared out much more than it is with a two-party system). So it's not exactly a tyranny.

Prime Minister of the Netherlands

I'm rather delighted that the Party for Animals has no fewer than three seats. Surely there must be one of those that is worthy of you, Phaeton?

Edited by Otto von Pickelhaube
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And yet you fail to point out even one honest politician who never lies. You are just full of wind. What is that called again? Oh, yeah... self righteousness. The self righteous never change the world, those who act do.

*Facepalm1* Broken record much? Why not completely ignore my reply and keep repeating thesame over and over again.. Being critical, not accepting representatives who structurally lie and deceive has absolutely nothing - nothing - to do with self righteousness.

You are the direct antithesis of those who act, dont flatter yourself. People like you think they can change their nation by doing the exact same thing that has been done to get to this point, you choose the easy way out, walk the paved road.. leading to more of thesame. People like you are giving power to those destroying your nation, thereby you are destroying your nation. Or rather, your stupidity is.

So you allow yourself to be ruled without even voting against things you don't like. Fantastic. Tell me more about how non participation gets you what you want. Has it worked so far?

*Facepalm #2* And yet you again fail to grasp the point by miles. I am voting against what I dont like, instead of voting what I dislike least, accepting being lied to on a regular basis 'because all politicians lie', like you.

Every vote gives power, legitimizes the present system, status quo. As long as enough people keep giving their vote of confidence to that system, to that status quo, nothing is going to change. Politicians arent the real problem, the system is.

he is dutch, they have constitutional monarchy , i'm not sure what voting process he is talking about

*Facepalm #3* Take some effort to know what youre talking about before you try and score a point like that, would you?

Think Ill just go ahead and remove myself from this particular discussion, leave you fantasising about how your hero Trump is gonna Make American Great Again. Hopeless.

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*Facepalm1* Broken record much? Why not completely ignore my reply and keep repeating thesame over and over again.. Being critical, not accepting representatives who structurally lie and deceive has absolutely nothing - nothing - to do with self righteousness.

I'll repeat what you fail to answer. When you come across as trying to act superior because you do nothing but rant, that is what I call self righteous.

Again... Can you point out a honest politician that has never lied to anyone?

You are the direct antithesis of those who act, dont flatter yourself. People like you think they can change their nation by doing the exact same thing that has been done to get to this point, you choose the easy way out, walk the paved road.. leading to more of thesame. People like you are giving power to those destroying your nation, thereby you are destroying your nation. Or rather, your stupidity is.

I didn't say I was one who acts. I said those who want to change the world must act. Myself, I don't see the problem. I have said many times that I will vote for the BEST liar, as that is whom I wish representing me on the world stage, where the best liar has a better chance at representing me and my interests.

I suspect that Trump usually is a very good liar. Cruz also is a good liar. Bernie probably couldn't lie to save himself from preschoolers, and Hillary is such a bad liar that she needs entire News Agencies to spin what she says to put out a positive angle on her idiotic rants. She has lied so often and so freely that it is hard to tell when she is ever telling the truth. Everything she says sounds like a lie to me now. :w00t:

*Facepalm #2* And yet you again fail to grasp the point by miles. I am voting against what I dont like, instead of voting what I dislike least, accepting being lied to on a regular basis 'because all politicians lie', like you.

Every vote gives power, legitimizes the present system, status quo. As long as enough people keep giving their vote of confidence to that system, to that status quo, nothing is going to change. Politicians arent the real problem, the system is.

Well on that we can agree. However simply ceding control accomplishes nothing. Control has to be changed from within, and sometimes that takes a long time, but is certainly possible. The only other option is revolution.

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Yeah I do believe they are the same. It is the demographic that trump speaks to that is the real danger. I fear them feeling empowered by his election and when angry and ignorant people feel empowered in a society generally bad things happen.

Dont get me wrong, Hillary's an evil biatch who will do their masters' bidding just as trump would, I think deep down though I have some hope that Trump supporters can see the light while anyone supporting Hillary is a lost cause (in terms of having these types of conversations)

Hmmm, strongly conservative groups protest and no property destrction, rioting, etc...

Strongly liberal groups protest (OccupyWallStreet, MoveOn, BlackLivesMatter) and those things happen.

Yet the conservative groups whom Trump appears to appeal to are more dangerous than those groups more likely to vote Hillary?

That question asked, I do think that BLM and OWS had/have valid issues to protest. I just wonder how you find groups whose protests have not been violent, disruptive, or destructive are worse than groups who have created these problems during their protests.

It seems to me, the conservative ideology is what scares you more, but a lot of what some conservative groups would like to see (overturn Roe vs. Wade, prayer in schools, etc...) are unconstitutional and any laws that manage to squeak through will be struck down by the courts as such. The same thing happens with liberal agendas such as the handgun ban in D.C. that was struck down.

Both Liberal and Conservative groups need to recognize that the same bill of rights which means abortion is legal, means that a person's right to carry a gun is protected. The same protections that allow them to speak their mind freely also means that the government cannot search/surveil/monitor them with due process.

I find it ironic how both ends of the spectrum cherry pick parts of the constitution which upholds their personal tenets rather than embracing the document as a whole and recognizing that it is the protections granted in their entirety which has allowed the country to grow and prosper as it did.

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I'll repeat what you fail to answer. When you come across as trying to act superior because you do nothing but rant, that is what I call self righteous.

Again... Can you point out a honest politician that has never lied to anyone?

I dont 'rant', I forward content you take issue with. If calling into question the acceptance of a culture of deception in the political arena is 'trying to act superior', I am guilty as charged. Responding with questions like "name one politician that never lied", in some attempt to rationalize tolerating this deceit, gives perfect insight in the state of mind of you and people like you.

I have said many times that I will vote for the BEST liar

You and a lot of fellow Americans, it seems. Which is irrational, illogical, and self defeating. 'Best liars' are not selective in those they lie to, which would include.. you. But hey, all politicians lie, so who cares right? Ah but we will be offended when election promises are not acted upon, if the president shows a completely different policy when its all said and done. And you know what we will do? Exactly thesame as we always do. (S)elect a new candidate the next time around. Accepting his lies, because everyone does it, to subsequently lament the fact promises are discarded. And again, and again, and again. And we shall expect a different result everytime. Yeay!

Well on that we can agree. However simply ceding control accomplishes nothing. Control has to be changed from within, and sometimes that takes a long time, but is certainly possible. The only other option is revolution.

You are theone ceding control, not me. Thats what you dont seem to understand. With every vote you give, you give power to those whom you vote for. Control cannot be changed from within, the system will corrupt you instead of you changing the system. Revolution is the only option. And not voting enmasse is the way to get there. In fact, 'Dont Vote' should be the battlecry of the anti establishment movement.

Edited by Phaeton80
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Hmmm, strongly conservative groups protest and no property destrction, rioting, etc...

Strongly liberal groups protest (OccupyWallStreet, MoveOn, BlackLivesMatter) and those things happen.

Yet the conservative groups whom Trump appears to appeal to are more dangerous than those groups more likely to vote Hillary?

That question asked, I do think that BLM and OWS had/have valid issues to protest. I just wonder how you find groups whose protests have not been violent, disruptive, or destructive are worse than groups who have created these problems during their protests.

Protests dont scare me. Having an angry , bitter majority who feels empowered to openly discriminate (in real life affecting ways) based on regional/moral/religious/racial preferences by a president who encourages such actions (intentionally or not) through bombastic hyperbole scares me.

Edited by Farmer77
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Protests dont scare me. Having an angry , bitter majority who feels empowered to openly discriminate (in real life affecting ways) based on regional/moral/religious/racial preferences by a president who encourages such actions (intentionally or not) through bombastic hyperbole scares me.

The rhetoric is hollow. None of those discriminatory ideals will make it above state level and even the ones at state and below get nullified by the courts. "StringRay" usage by police just took a huge hit by the Maryland Court and it is a posterchild of "if you have nothing to hide" mindset.

Personally, I find the left's constant attempts at infringement of my second amendment (and other)rights far more troubling than the toothless squawking by the evangelical crowd. Wedging Christianity into government has been struck down so many times there are plenty of precedents in place to allow lower courts ample opportunity to strike down instances.

Both the left and right put forward legislation infringing on rights. I think it would be brilliant if the public would quit clamoring for more government interferences in their lives and scale government back to defense, education, infrastructure, treaties. Quit worrying if Mary Sue aborted her pregnancy or Jim Bob bought an AR15. If we weren't paying people to trap bulk cell phone metadata or armored vehicles with specialized swat teams to serve warrants we would have more money to spend on education and infrastructure upgrades. Eliminating the "war on drugs" would free up a lot of government resources to be allocated elsewhere. If your going to do something with healthcare go "all in" like Sanders or go back to private insurance. The Obama care disaster has seemed to cost a number of people their coverage. I know when Obama care was implemented our next company premium magically shot up 70%. How any intelligent individual could think legally mandating a larger pool of customers to the same limited pool of vendors would not cause a price increase is baffling.

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The rhetoric is hollow. None of those discriminatory ideals will make it above state level and even the ones at state and below get nullified by the courts. "StringRay" usage by police just took a huge hit by the Maryland Court and it is a posterchild of "if you have nothing to hide" mindset.

Personally, I find the left's constant attempts at infringement of my second amendment (and other)rights far more troubling than the toothless squawking by the evangelical crowd. Wedging Christianity into government has been struck down so many times there are plenty of precedents in place to allow lower courts ample opportunity to strike down instances.

Both the left and right put forward legislation infringing on rights. I think it would be brilliant if the public would quit clamoring for more government interferences in their lives and scale government back to defense, education, infrastructure, treaties. Quit worrying if Mary Sue aborted her pregnancy or Jim Bob bought an AR15. If we weren't paying people to trap bulk cell phone metadata or armored vehicles with specialized swat teams to serve warrants we would have more money to spend on education and infrastructure upgrades. Eliminating the "war on drugs" would free up a lot of government resources to be allocated elsewhere. If your going to do something with healthcare go "all in" like Sanders or go back to private insurance. The Obama care disaster has seemed to cost a number of people their coverage. I know when Obama care was implemented our next company premium magically shot up 70%. How any intelligent individual could think legally mandating a larger pool of customers to the same limited pool of vendors would not cause a price increase is baffling.

Im with you, my political views are described well by the cliche: I want married gay parents to be able to pray next to their pot plants while protecting them with guns.

The best thing about Obamacare , and I will always be grateful, is that it made something happen. I know it SUCKS and is nowhere near an answer to the problems in the American healthcare system but at least its now caused such a charlie foxtrot that everyone is aware now that the system is broken.

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Im with you, my political views are described well by the cliche: I want married gay parents to be able to pray next to their pot plants while protecting them with guns.

I find that picture of America endearing.

The best thing about Obamacare , and I will always be grateful, is that it made something happen. I know it SUCKS and is nowhere near an answer to the problems in the American healthcare system but at least its now caused such a charlie foxtrot that everyone is aware now that the system is broken.

I find no best thing about Obama Care. It literally stopped planned expansion of the company that would have been around 40 jobs paying 30-70k/yr. Instead those positions are now subcontracted out and project management resources are stretched thinner with increased oversight of the subs. It is not the direction the company prefers to go but the large increase in health care costs coupled with the possibilities of a $15/hr minimum wage means work gets contracted out. It's not as if those positions would be getting an increase because they are below minimum wage but there would need to be an increase on the lower scaled positions as $15/hr to flip burgers at McDonalds is a lot less tasking than lumping stone and sling buckets of mortar around 8-10hrs. Their wages would have to rise also or lose out on the resources invested in their training. All I see from both sides of the aisle are empty rhetoric and failed welfare programs that target the rich and the poor. I would prefer greatly if government would just tax me fairly, do their constitution given assignments and stay the **** out of the rest of my life/business. If that were to actually happen we could go back to part time legislatures and scale their remuneration plus benefits packages back accordingly. Even if we keep them full time tie their wage to 75% the previous years median income for that state and their health coverage is Medicare. Then again I have no issue with Medicare being the provider for all (full time)governmental employees. If it is good enough for our senior citizens who worked their entire lives it is equally sufficient for public servants. Pensions should also correlate to private sector, 401k and social security.

Edited by Jarocal
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I find that picture of America endearing.

I find no best thing about Obama Care. It literally stopped planned expansion of the company that would have been around 40 jobs paying 30-70k/yr. Instead those positions are now subcontracted out and project management resources are stretched thinner with increased oversight of the subs. It is not the direction the company prefers to go but the large increase in health care costs coupled with the possibilities of a $15/hr minimum wage means work gets contracted out. It's not as if those positions would be getting an increase because they are below minimum wage but there would need to be an increase on the lower scaled positions as $15/hr to flip burgers at McDonalds is a lot less tasking than lumping stone and sling buckets of mortar around 8-10hrs. Their wages would have to rise also or lose out on the resources invested in their training. All I see from both sides of the aisle are empty rhetoric and failed welfare programs that target the rich and the poor. I would prefer greatly if government would just tax me fairly, do their constitution given assignments and stay the **** out of the rest of my life/business. If that were to actually happen we could go back to part time legislatures and scale their remuneration plus benefits packages back accordingly. Even if we keep them full time tie their wage to 75% the previous years median income for that state and their health coverage is Medicare. Then again I have no issue with Medicare being the provider for all (full time)governmental employees. If it is good enough for our senior citizens who worked their entire lives it is equally sufficient for public servants. Pensions should also correlate to private sector, 401k and social security.

See i hear what you're saying about small governmnet and I agree . BUT corporate America has proven it needs supervision. Given the opportunity in America a business will do everything possible to make the largest profit possible. Seems logical until you extend it to the basic fundamentals of life, food, healthcare and education. To allow corporations dictate our way of life unfettered is simply to seal our doom.

Now the flip side of that is we live in an oligarchy which is ran by corporations anyways (hence obamacare with no price drops in cost of care rather than an actual one payer system) so i do not wholly put my faith in them either.

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The rhetoric is hollow. None of those discriminatory ideals will make it above state level and even the ones at state and below get nullified by the courts. "StringRay" usage by police just took a huge hit by the Maryland Court and it is a posterchild of "if you have nothing to hide" mindset.

Personally, I find the left's constant attempts at infringement of my second amendment (and other)rights far more troubling than the toothless squawking by the evangelical crowd. Wedging Christianity into government has been struck down so many times there are plenty of precedents in place to allow lower courts ample opportunity to strike down instances.

Both the left and right put forward legislation infringing on rights. I think it would be brilliant if the public would quit clamoring for more government interferences in their lives and scale government back to defense, education, infrastructure, treaties. Quit worrying if Mary Sue aborted her pregnancy or Jim Bob bought an AR15. If we weren't paying people to trap bulk cell phone metadata or armored vehicles with specialized swat teams to serve warrants we would have more money to spend on education and infrastructure upgrades. Eliminating the "war on drugs" would free up a lot of government resources to be allocated elsewhere. If your going to do something with healthcare go "all in" like Sanders or go back to private insurance. The Obama care disaster has seemed to cost a number of people their coverage. I know when Obama care was implemented our next company premium magically shot up 70%. How any intelligent individual could think legally mandating a larger pool of customers to the same limited pool of vendors would not cause a price increase is baffling.

Or mandating a larger pool of money into a fixed number of goods and services. If health care costs came down that would be Deflation, the scariest monster in the economic world to politicians and voters.

Protests dont scare me. Having an angry , bitter majority who feels empowered to openly discriminate (in real life affecting ways) based on regional/moral/religious/racial preferences by a president who encourages such actions (intentionally or not) through bombastic hyperbole scares me.

It seems that people just want to be angry. It doesn't even matter what they're angry about. Find a strong leader to tell you what to be angry about, and people just fall right in the angry hole. It's an anger contagion demanding big government to solve problems we've been misled to become so angry about.

Bigots are already angry (their anger is what made them bigots) and so all they need are issues, true or false, to hide their racism behind, and of course a strong man or strong woman to silently vote for. People get angry as hell about something, so damned angry that they run to the ballot box and push a button over it! Can you believe it? And over a mountain of B.S. they heard their anger-mongering candidate say. And that's good enough for them, I guess....I've seen enough primaries to know how many millions of votes Clinton and Trump have received. Welcome to Pathetic, America.

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See i hear what you're saying about small governmnet and I agree . BUT corporate America has proven it needs supervision. Given the opportunity in America a business will do everything possible to make the largest profit possible. Seems logical until you extend it to the basic fundamentals of life, food, healthcare and education. To allow corporations dictate our way of life unfettered is simply to seal our doom.

Now the flip side of that is we live in an oligarchy which is ran by corporations anyways (hence obamacare with no price drops in cost of care rather than an actual one payer system) so i do not wholly put my faith in them either.

Evil corporations make a convenient whipping boy until you look at lead in the water,raw sewage pollution and PCB contamination issues which are municipal and public utility controlled issues for which the government had very stringent control methods and failed to utilize them. Government continually running at deficits and not addressing the infrastructure issues they are tasked with frightens me more than Wall Street.

I would not be opposed to a constitutional amendment addressing food sovereignty. Abolish agribusiness welfare, it will not affect my food prices significantly as I purposely altered my diet and sought out sources minimizing my usage of products from there. Coffee and tea would be the two things I still routinely acquire from agribusiness sources.

Deregulate ethanol production and my property would be able to not only reduce electric generated by more pollutive sources but if energy companies had to remunerate me fairly for my excess generation I would also be removing a few more houses worth of electric from coal, nuclear, and other more troublesome sources. I have a moveable out building I am too cheap to run a line to that was more cost effective to install a combination of micro wind, solar panels, a battery bank, and LED/low voltage technologies supplemented by a wood gas generator I tinkered around with out of spare parts when I was bored. I could easily swap that out into an ethanol engine other than the constraints put on such a small scale endeavor by the government. Granted I could just quietly make the fuel and as I would not be vending it my risk of being caught is slim but it is still (pun intended) illegal. What innovative technology has been stifled through ridiculous regulations such as this?

Chickens are not more noisy or messy than dogs, parrots, or a host of other pets yet many municipalities have bans on them even though they would reduce compostable waste sent to landfills and provide cheap eggs to lower income families while filling the role of family pet and possibly later the stew pot.

If I could legally purchase bread from my neighbor making it in her kitchen without her having to spend ludicrous amounts of money for commercial equipment, licensing, and inspections I would and her doing 100 loaves/week in the local neighborhood would let that family supplement their income without risking a major food illness outbreak. Certainly not one on the scale of the issues we have seen from agribusiness.

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Or mandating a larger pool of money into a fixed number of goods and services. If health care costs came down that would be Deflation, the scariest monster in the economic world to politicians and voters.

The unrealistic goal of continually growing at "x%" is one of the major problems.

Welcome to Pathetic, America.

While I perceive flaws in the system I feel need addressed I don't find pathetic as an apt adjective. For all those flaws there is no other country I would prefer to be a citizen of than the U.S. (though there are many I hold respect for).

We are like a very extended dysfunctional family. We can squabble and fight among ourselves but when an outsider takes a shot at us such as with 9/11 they get the realization that we will coalesce temporarily setting aside our differences to go and wreak havoc on those responsible (as Afghanistan unfortunately found out by the Taliban initially sheltering Bin Laden). And we have friends who will usually come along to help with the beat down...:devil:

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While I perceive flaws in the system I feel need addressed I don't find pathetic as an apt adjective. For all those flaws there is no other country I would prefer to be a citizen of than the U.S. (though there are many I hold respect for).

Why is that?

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Why is that?

I could prattle on about freedoms, liberties, and opportunity but even though I have been fortunate enough to have traveled outside the U.S. quite a bit and witness amazing things it really boils down to this.

I was born an Appalachian Redneck and remain one at heart. The furthest from those mountains I have been able to feel at home is in the "Pennsylvania Dutch country" which leaves those mountains less than a day trip away. Within a decade I intend to partially retire and move back into those mountains preferably on a plot of land where the driveway is long enough that the walk from the front porch to the mailbox sitting along the road is a hour long hike.

Though not as tall as the Rockies or world reknown as the Alps(I have been to both and they are breathtaking) nothing compares to watching a morning mist rise from valleys or the sun setting behind the peaks in Appalachia.

Your mileage may vary :D

Edit to add- few other places have the lyrical baying of a Treeing Walker, Redbone, Bluetick, or Leopard hound rising in the night as like a lullaby for those not trudging through the woods chasing after a rascally racoon...

Edited by Jarocal
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Many people from many different countries feel the same for similar reasons. It's why occupations don't work and guerrilla war does.

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Many people from many different countries feel the same for similar reasons. It's why occupations don't work and guerrilla war does.

Occupations can work if the occupation is steadfastly and fairly implemented with long term goals maintained by the occupying force. Last I checked, the U.S. still has forces deployed in Germany, Japan, and other areas that were occupied after WW2. We still maintain a presence in South Korea. The "failed occupations" have all occurred from the Vietnam war and after where the public willingness to keep American lives in danger for decades while those countries stabilise and rebuild is what seems to have wavered. I am not saying it is totally wrong, but to compare the short time and resources (not dollar amount but resources on the ground) we used in Afghanistan to the time and resources spent helping Japan rebuild seems that we kind of short changed the Afghanis compared to the Japanese.

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I dont 'rant', I forward content you take issue with. If calling into question the acceptance of a culture of deception in the political arena is 'trying to act superior', I am guilty as charged. Responding with questions like "name one politician that never lied", in some attempt to rationalize tolerating this deceit, gives perfect insight in the state of mind of you and people like you.

When one goes on about what they are doing is correct, and disparages all other choices, that is ranting.

Do you not tolerate the many other social ills in society today? Or, are you just hung up on lying?

My mindset is that I'd rather do something then nothing. You propose doing nothing and say that someone out there will notice and decide to act differently, when what you are forgetting is that all those you are seeking to influence simply don't care. If 51% of everyone refused to vote, still the majority candidate would win, yes?

You and a lot of fellow Americans, it seems. Which is irrational, illogical, and self defeating. 'Best liars' are not selective in those they lie to, which would include.. you. But hey, all politicians lie, so who cares right? Ah but we will be offended when election promises are not acted upon, if the president shows a completely different policy when its all said and done. And you know what we will do? Exactly thesame as we always do. (S)elect a new candidate the next time around. Accepting his lies, because everyone does it, to subsequently lament the fact promises are discarded. And again, and again, and again. And we shall expect a different result everytime. Yeay!

And on the other side we have you, who doesn't vote and just goes online and complains about everyone else who does vote.

You imagine that if everyone refused to vote for liars, that honest people would step up and take over? I fear that is naive. It would take a remarkable and miraculous change in US Society to allow that to happen.

You are theone ceding control, not me. Thats what you dont seem to understand. With every vote you give, you give power to those whom you vote for. Control cannot be changed from within, the system will corrupt you instead of you changing the system. Revolution is the only option. And not voting enmasse is the way to get there. In fact, 'Dont Vote' should be the battlecry of the anti establishment movement.

"Revolution is the only Option." ........ Finally you are clear.

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