Donald Trump Enters 2016 Presidential Race

[SHaYap]

Imagine the future generations poring over the History of Violent Conflicts in the 21st Century ~ I hope I don't live old enough to have to entertain the questions the youth of that day will be asking ...

~

[F3SS]

Why? You act like violence belongs to your lifetime. Plus you phrase that as if you are to blame. I'm not sure there's ever been a generation that could claim world peace. Local peace, maybe for thousands of miles around, but not world.

Edited August 24, 2015 by F3SS

[Yamato]

It was actually the first unanimous vote by the UN to refer any country to the International Criminal Court, ever.

It's almost as if they'd outraged the entire international community.

It's that three letter word "Own" that you're finding tricky today, isn't it?

So it's not the UN Security Council's unanimity that mattered ho boy, nope suddenly for the purpose of argument it's the International Criminal Court's that does. More bureaucratically dependent Column A and Column B. But whoops you're not even as consistent as picking your favorite bureau, because the UN Security Council Resolution 1973 is what authorized the violence. Suddenly there's a unanimous resolution we're willing to violently defend, how convenient.

The outrage was over airstrikes on civilian targets, which is again something we're either for or against depending on who's doing it. The inference that if Qaddafi was an occupier bombing the occupied instead of his own citizens he'd be excused for it was absurd. So you've got to cherry pick sensational factoids that make Libya different and talk about snipers shooting protesters from helicopters. Using regular bombs on civilians, although far more destructive and more helpful to your point, would stink too much like something else.

[Tiggs]

So it's not the UN Security Council's unanimity that mattered ho boy,

It kind of is.

Who do you think referred Libya to the ICC, exactly?

Hint: Try UN Security Council Resolution 1970.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Tiggs
Added hint.

[Yamato]

I must have missed the news report of the Israeli's using snipers from helicopters firing on their own citizens indiscriminately.

The lack of reports on Israel using snipers from helicopters?! That's what really matters in order to figure out what we think about this?

New Rule: You can't shoot your Own citizens (indiscriminately?) from a helicopter! But if you do, we'll shoot missiles at your home and murder your grandchildren?

Every Al Qaeda (LIFG et al) operative in Libya woke up the next morning shouting Allahu Akbar when they saw who it was we were bombing over there.

But what makes or breaks the conclusion whether we agree with the violence or not is in how Libya's been doing lately.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2015/country-chapters/libya

I sure haven't seen any crocodile tears being shed for what Libyans are going through lately. It's not as interesting as getting shot from a helicopter, I'll grant you that small shred of agreement. But we toppled their govt and forgot all about them. And now just look at the place, if you truly care about these people. Sorry to slap down another foreign policy disaster, but either we want civil wars to break out, or this is the stupidest foreign policy ever.

[Yamato]

It kind of is.

Who do you think referred Libya to the ICC, exactly?

Hint: Try UN Security Council Resolution 1970.

If I had a vote, I would have referred it to the ICC too, like I would over several other places and situations around the world. That's a far cry from dropping bombs on countries that have never attacked us.

[Tiggs]

The lack of reports on Israel using snipers from helicopters?! That's what really matters in order to figure out what we think about this?

Trump > Clinton > Libya > Israel.

We are playing six degrees of Palestinian, right?

Y'know - it's perfectly possible to disapprove of both the actions of a Gaddafi-led Libya and the Israeli state, and not have to think that they're both the very same thing or expect the very same military intervention from the UN.

I sure haven't seen any crocodile tears being shed for what Libyans are going through lately. It's not as interesting as getting shot from a helicopter, I'll grant you that small shred of agreement. But we toppled their govt and forgot all about them. And now just look at the place, if you truly care about these people. Sorry to slap down another foreign policy disaster, but either we want civil wars to break out, or this is the stupidest foreign policy ever.

Libya's a mess. It's essentially become a proxy war between UAE/Egypt and Qatar.

Regardless of the UN action - it'd still be a mess.

That's a far cry from dropping bombs on countries that have never attacked us.

Go tell that to the relatives of the 179 Americans who died in a Pan Am over Lockerbie - or anyone who's lived on the English mainland, where they've had to cope with Libyan supplied Semtex used by the IRA for decades.

[Space Commander Travis]

Oh, really? And which non-military assets do you believe that they targeted, exactly?

.

The whole freaking country? Look at it now; it's a mess. Who was responsible for that? the Tyrant Gadaffi? I don't often say "get real" to people, but really, this is surely one of those situations that deserves it.

I must have missed the news report of the Israeli's using snipers from helicopters firing on their own citizens indiscriminately.

No, we all know that Palestinians don't count.

[Yamato]

Trump > Clinton > Libya > Israel.

We are playing six degrees of Palestinian, right?

Y'know - it's perfectly possible to disapprove of both the actions of a Gaddafi-led Libya and the Israeli state, and not have to think that they're both the very same thing or expect the very same military intervention from the UN.

Libya's a mess. It's essentially become a proxy war between UAE/Egypt and Qatar.

Regardless of the UN action - it'd still be a mess.

Go tell that to the relatives of the 179 Americans who died in a Pan Am over Lockerbie - or anyone who's lived on the English mainland, where they've had to cope with Libyan supplied Semtex used by the IRA for decades.

Okay, then I'll go tell the relatives of the 290 Not-Americans who died in Iran Air 655 over Iranian waters that I wouldn't bomb the USA for that either. Did we accept responsibility for that, despite whoever also not giving the order to attack, and apologize to and compensate the victims families? Or is it after that when we're worthy of being bombed for it?

This other double standard that walked its way in, that we're to hold other countries responsible for what yet other 3rd-parties do with their weapons is another familiar dish we cook all the time but never eat.

[Space Commander Travis]

So you're a humanitarian interventionist, Tiggs? Possibly the one intervention that the U.S. and its allies has made since 1945 that has made things better has perhaps been in Bosnia, but otherwise the record hasn't been very inspiring, has it? Are you trying to tell us that if the west hadn't stuck its nose in in Libya, the situation would've been even worse than it is now? Or would you argue that, like in Iraq, the West should have moved in as an occupying force after they'd got rid of Gadaffi, and installed a compliant puppet rebuilt it as a Liberal Democracy, something that's worked really well everywhere it's been tried? What should the West do to make a success of these Humanitarian Interventions it's so addicted to?

Edited August 24, 2015 by Norbert the Incredible

[Yamato]

He's a selective humanitarian interventionist at best.

[Tiggs]

The whole freaking country?

So which media stations did they take out? Which power stations? Which water processing plants? Which hospitals?

Or - do you think there's just the slightest possibility that an international coalition might have only agreed to target, oh, I don't know - say, military targets?

Look at it now; it's a mess. Who was responsible for that?

When did the UN bomb Syria?

Or do civil wars not require UN bombing raids these days?

[Tiggs]

Okay, then I'll go tell the relatives of the 290 Not-Americans who died in Iran Air 655 over Iranian waters that I wouldn't bomb the USA for that either.

You appear to have "never attacked us" confused with reasons to declare war.

[SHaYap]

Why? You act like violence belongs to your lifetime. Plus you phrase that as if you are to blame. I'm not sure there's ever been a generation that could claim world peace. Local peace, maybe for thousands of miles around, but not world.

I wouldn't say blame ~ but as such it is not anything I would forsee myself reminiscing with pride looking at the things as such as it is globally at present ~

Past generations may not have known nor is aware of the things that we do today ~ we know as an entire generation and for more ... and yet the lessons remains unlearned ~

~

[Tiggs]

So you're a humanitarian interventionist, Tiggs? Possibly the one intervention that the U.S. and its allies has made since 1945 that has made things better has perhaps been in Bosnia, but otherwise the record hasn't been very inspiring, has it? Are you trying to tell us that if the west hadn't stuck its nose in in Libya, the situation would've been even worse than it is now?

With the situation now being that they're in a civil war?

As opposed to the civil war they were in when Nato bombed their military assets?

Or would you argue that, like in Iraq, the West should have moved in as an occupying force after they'd got rid of Gadaffi, and installed a compliant puppet rebuilt it as a Liberal Democracy, something that's worked really well everywhere it's been tried? What should the West do to make a success of these Humanitarian Interventions it's so addicted to?

There is no good way to end a civil war. Leaving the dictator in place who kicked it off, however, is the best way to guarantee there will be another one.

[Space Commander Travis]

So which media stations did they take out? Which power stations? Which water processing plants? Which hospitals?

Or - do you think there's just the slightest possibility that an international coalition might have only agreed to target, oh, I don't know - say, military targets?

No, the freaking "rebels" did that, the ones the "West" allowed to take over by their humanitarian destruction of any functioning government.

It really is extremely disingenuous to wash one's hands and say "we didn't do that, we can't be held responsible for whatever may have happened afterwards", when it was what the "West" did that allowed it to happen.

[Space Commander Travis]

When did the UN bomb Syria?

Or do civil wars not require UN bombing raids these days?

And if you believe the West's hands are entirely clean about what happened in Syria, that takes disingenuousness to a whole new level. This is black belt level.

[Tiggs]

No, the freaking "rebels" did that,

Really? Evidence, please, of the rebels destroying:

• Media stations
  
• Power stations
  
• Water processing plants
  
• Hospitals
  

During the time of the Nato strikes.

[Tiggs]

And if you believe the West's hands are entirely clean about what happened in Syria, that takes disingenuousness to a whole new level. This is black belt level.

Are you saying that every civil war is engineered by the West?

[Space Commander Travis]

Really? Evidence, please, of the rebels destroying:

• Media stations
  
• Power stations
  
• Water processing plants
  
• Hospitals
  

During the time of the Nato strikes.

For heaven's sake, man, look at Libya now. You really do have this habit of not actually answering the things that people say to you and replying with sarcastic rhetorical questions to deflect the question. Would you call it a satisfactorily functioning society? If the answer is no, who would you say was to blame for that? And do you try to deny that the "NATO Campaign" may have had anything to do with creating the conditions that allowed the present situation to develop? Are you trying to deny that "NATO" has any responsibility for what happened subsequently?

,

[Space Commander Travis]

Are you saying that every civil war is engineered by the West?

Syria: yes.

Ukraine: Yes,

Libya: Quite probably.

for starters. That should be plenty enough for now.

And if you try to dismiss everything else I say because that labels me as a "conspiracy theorist" and therefore not to be taken seriously, then I'm afraid the sheer naivety of your belief, if you really do believe it, that the "West" has nothing to do with any of these is so breathtaking that I'm afraid it disqualifies what you may have to say from being taken seriously.

[Tiggs]

For heaven's sake, man, look at Libya now...Would you call it a satisfactorily functioning society? If the answer is no, who would you say was to blame for that?

I'm going to go with Gaddafi - since he was the one that decided shooting protesters was okay.

And do you try to deny that the "NATO Campaign" may have had anything to do with creating the conditions that allowed the present situation to develop? Are you trying to deny that "NATO" has any responsibility for what happened subsequently?

The difference between a civil war and a one-sided massacre is how closely fought it is.

When one side has fighter jets, helicopters and tanks and the other side doesn't - then it's a foregone conclusion.

The NATO airstrikes leveled the playing field. In doing so, they also ensured that those military assets didn't later fall into the hands of Islamic State - who are currently in Libya, as we speak.

Removing those weapons from the field also reduces the amount of damage that can be done in a space of time, allowing more refugees to exit from the field of war.

Libya is a mess - but after Gaddafi started shooting protesters, it was always going to be, regardless of what NATO did or didn't do.

Sometimes, there are no good answers. There are just varying shades of bad ones.

Sometimes, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.

If they hadn't performed those airstrikes - people would be screaming about the hundreds of thousands of Libyans the West let be murdered without lifting a finger.

Everyone here on Team "Leave Gaddafi Alone"™ is seemingly quick enough to cry about the continuing lack of UN intervention in Palestine, after all.

You really do have this habit of not actually answering the things that people say to you and replying with sarcastic rhetorical questions to deflect the question.

My questions are my answer. If they seem sarcastic to you, then so be it.

[Tiggs]

Syria: yes.

Ukraine: Yes,

Libya: Quite probably.

for starters. That should be plenty enough for now.

And if you try to dismiss everything else I say because that labels me as a "conspiracy theorist" and therefore not to be taken seriously, then I'm afraid the sheer naivety of your belief, if you really do believe it, that the "West" has nothing to do with any of these is so breathtaking that I'm afraid it disqualifies what you may have to say from being taken seriously.

I, too, am a conspiracy theorist. I just have different theories.

For example - I'm not sure how the West convinced the Syrian government to start shooting peaceful protesters. Perhaps you'd care to elaborate?

[bee]

Are you saying that every civil war is engineered by the West?

I don't believe that he is -

But are you saying that none of them are?

.

[bee]

.

Assad 'shooting peaceful protesters'....Gaddafi...'shooting peaceful protesters' ..and no doubt Saddam 'shot peaceful protesters'...?

Bit of a theme building up here, but how can we even be sure the information we got about the 'shooting of peaceful protesters' is correct

or at least the situation's accurate - for example how easy would it be for anti Assad/Gaddafi/Saddam people to shoot peaceful protesters and pretend that it was Assad/Gaddafi/Saddam forces...so that the flame gets lit and the 'West' has an excuse...

It should be pretty obvious that Assad/Gaddafi/Saddam tried to keep the lid on what is now emerging... chaos and violence..

I bet the majority of people of those countries, who's lives are now destroyed would love to have the kind of life back that they had

before Western Intervention... ie. a functioning society...without the ''''Islamic State'''' threat...

Can't help thinking that the 'West' used Al Qaeda (again) as a proxy army ...and that '''we''' are somehow entwined with it all to

kow tow to Saudi Arabia....somehow and for some reason....

.

Edited August 24, 2015 by bee