Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 3]

[Van Gorp]

Alewyn Raubenheimer argues convincingly in his second edition (2011, p.92), that the Phaeacians ("who are near of kin to the gods" and who "surpass all other nations as sailors") of Homer's Odyssey must be the Fryans (he wrote "Frisians").

Their king was Alcinous.

Did anyone ever notice that this name is pretty much the same as "Alcuin" (of York), a.k.a. Ealhwine?

I now certainly notice that Ealhwine is pretty much the same as Alewyn :-)

[Ell]

Did Alewyn maybe borrow the idea from Jürgen Spanuth (1956)?

http://www.google.nl...113943164,d.d24

Atlantis - The mystery unravelled

CONTENTS

SECTION THREE

Homer's account of Atlantis-Basileia

1 . Homer and the historical value of his poem . . .

2. Atlantis and the island of the Phaeacians . . .

3. Sailing directions to Basileia .. .

4. Description of the Phaeacian country

5 . The Shipping of the Phaeacians

6. The formation of the coast dunes in Phaeacia

7. Sports in Phaeacia

8. The ritual dance of the Phaecians

9. Weaving skills of the Phaeacians

Thank you for the link.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Ell

[FromFinland]

surpass all other nations as sailors

Interestingly OLB highlights in several parts how Danish are the best marines, for example:

The Denmarkers, who proudly considered themselves sea-warriors above all the other sea-people

Tacitus (Germania 44) has the Swedes as possessing a huge fleet, though it's not mentioned specifically if it's of a military marine orientation (as Danes of OLB), or of a civilian sailor orientation (as Phaecian/Frisians). Of note is that he is able to tell something about the Frisians, yet he makes no mention of Frisian naval capabilities whatsoever in 98 AD, other than the Roman navy had ventured into Frisian waters (Germania 34).

Caesar in his The Gallic War of about 58 to 50 BC describes the Briton Veneti people of French Bretagne as being a marine nation with ships larger and superior to the Roman ones*. They are known to had a connection to their Briton cousins in Britannia and their tin trade, which is also mentioned in the OLB.

Interestingly in the Caesar's story the main highlight of the Venetis are their advanced ship building skills and - surprise surpise - their tribal name means 'a boat' in Finnish and Estonian (vene, plural veneet). This odd outside-the-normal linguistical connection between the Finns and Britons of old must have been noticed or known by the Romans, for Tacitus mentions 150 years later in his Germania that the Finnic Estonians (Aesti) look like Germans but speak like Britons (Germania 45).

*Thereby betraying the OLB description of Britons as backwardish somewhat lacking, for high-class naval technology points to opposite. For more information, please also see the Briton traditions as retold by Monmouth, The Mabinogion et al. One could of course ponder that the old Frisians of the OLB had even better ships than the Veneti Britons, and the later Tacitus Frisians were a mere remnant of older sea people and hence their navy is not mentioned.

[Ott]

From Dutch newspaper article (Telegraaf, 14-5-1933) about an exhibition in Berlin by Herman Wirth, who published a German translation of the OLB in 1933 (translated):

Contemporary primordial religion for the Aryans

[...] In Germany, a daily increasing movement of people can be observed, that turns away from Christianity and wants to return to the original Germanic and Aryan gods. This movement had been moderate, since many felt uncomfortable worshiping Wodan again. But now, Wirth has come with his "Hailbringer" and it is under this banner, that the anti-Christian Germans can somewhat decently unite if they want.

The matter has become highly relevant, since the organisation of "German Christians" has emerged, its main aims still hardly being known. As far as this new initiative persues reformation of the Protestant church after National Socialist principles, it is of some interest. But it becomes sensational, when it aims at "purging" Christianity of all Semitic smut, for example by abolition of the Old Testament. [...]

Full Dutch text here.

[Ott]

At least that

1) he had the OLB secretely researched until 1943 and

2) that in 1942 he had planned to have a splendor-edition made [...]

Some relevant facts concerning the OLB in the years 1933-1945.

1933 April or May: Wirth opened very succesful exhibition "Hailbringer" in Berlin about primordial religion of the "Nordic Aryan" race. (Telegraaf, dutch newspaper article 14-05-1933)

1934 May 4: theatrical panel discussion about OLB at Berlin university. (G.Simon, "Buchfieber. Zur Geschichte des Buches im 3. Reich", p.14)

(Following mostly from reference list by Gerd Simon, translated from German)

1934 Since mid June: publications about OLB or Wirth were forbidden in NS-Germany. (letter 24-09-1934) Note: some seem to have have slipped through censorship, though.

1935 August 19: geographer-archaeologist Albert Herrmann wrote to Himmler after having been in Holland: "New insights in OLB ... surprising observations ... which convincingly confrim authenticity of sources".

1935 or 1936 (not dated) SS-Ahnenerbe working plan research OLB. Team: Wirth, Wüst, Dingler, Plassmann, Werner Müller, Herrmann, Albert.

1936 April 8: letter Galke to Ahnenerbe about Himmler's plan to have a splendor edition of OLB made as gift for Hitler. (p.137 "Maskenwechsel", Gerd Simon 1999)

1936 September 18: Himmler pays 100 Reichsmark per months (9 months) to medievalist Maußer for secret OLB research.

1937 February 25: Himmler in letter to Eckhardt: "The German scientific community could actually be happy and grateful indeed, when I proceed more scientifically than they themselves. For I am not as bold as to assume beforehand that the OLB must be authentic, like they boldly assume beforehand that it must be a forgery."

1937 June 2: Himmler decides 9 more months research by Maußer for 100 RM per month.

1937 July 15: Ahnenerbe research team OLB under leadership Maußer: Wirth, Wüst, Dingler, Plassmann, Werner Müller, Herrmann

1941 July 20: Maußer writes about work Heyting and Overwijn: "Very interesting that also these Dutch don't doubt OLB's authenticity. The difference between them and me is that I can provide hard evidence."

1942 July 1: death Maußer.

After that, till Oct. 1944 question about where Maußer's collection of over 1500 books should go.

[Ott]

Tony, do you have source, scale and orientation (North-South) of this map?

[Ott]

If you are interested in pre-Christian Europe, and you understand that official contemporary history is dictated by the victors of the latest wars, the Oera Linda Book will be a treat.

The medieval Christian establishment is responsible for our oldest accepted sources by preserving or copying them. They were also known for destroying anything that they considered to be heretical. Even in our times, some opinions, beliefs, memories and facts are not tolerated. In Germany for example, historians and scientists (as well as their defending lawyers) have been jailed for questioning the establishment's version of what had happened in the labour camps of the Third Reich. Their books have been burnt and banned.

Thanks to the internet and as long as it is relatively accessible, ever more people are educating themselves and coming to their own conclusions. What we have learnt at school, from documentaries or even from specialised mainstream literature often turns out to have an other possible perspective, that sometimes makes more sense. This "aha!"-experience is addictive. The more pieces of the puzzle fall into their right position, the more a real picture becomes clear, resulting in a more healthy world view, identity and belief system.

It is easy to imagine that the oldest texts that we have are only a fraction of what once existed. For not only have books and manuscripts been destroyed on purpose or by accident, much will have simply fallen apart, used to make fire, or be hiding in private or secret collections of the richest and most powerful. When information is hidden to the common public, it is called "occult". When an occult source suddenly shows up in the public domain, it will be a threat to the cultural elite, so they will try to hide it again.

In the case of the Oera Linda Book, they were too late, since it was translated, published and widely discussed before they knew it. So what else could be done than have it ridiculed and intimidate scholars who dared to be interested in it? This happened in the 1870s in the Netherlands and was repeated in Germany in the 1930s, when it was once more declared fake and publication about the topic became forbidden. But Heinrich Himmler did take it seriously and had the OLB secretly investigated between 1936 and 1942.

After the war, in Germany the OLB was nicknamed "Himmler's Bible", which further discouraged academics to publicly doubt the dominating forgery doctrine. The most recent scholarly works were published in 2004 and 2006, a dissertation and new translation, that do not question or consider authenticity, but merely confirm the hoax theory, suggesting a religiously motivated conspiracy of vicar-priest Haverschmidt, linguist Verwijs and Over de Linden, who had owned the manuscript. My video demonstrates the failure of the official story.

My weblog contains language studies, forum discussions, links and thought experiments. My current main priority is to make a new English translation that will be published together with a new transliteration and a facsimile of the manuscript. This way it will be easier than ever before to compare the translation with the original text and script. An index of names and key words will be added, as well as summaries, time lines and more. With this I hope to inspire other researchers, for the topic is way too great for the few of us alone.

[Tony S.]

Tony, do you have source, scale and orientation (North-South) of this map?

Hi Othar, the source, or rather one of many, can be found here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wewelsburg#SS_plans

The largest circle is 1270 metres in diameter (about 4/5 of a mile).

The apex of the triangle points north, and marks the exact location of the north tower.

[Ott]

Thanks, Tony.

... vicar-priest Haverschmidt, ...

should be "vicar-poet Haverschmidt"

[Ott]

Translated from "De NSB - Ontstaan en opkomst van de Nationaal-Socialistische Beweging, 1931-1935" (2009) by Te Slaa & Klijn (p.706):

Regional commissioner Van de Weide ascertained, that Frisian students were interested in the old-Germanic culture: "The Frisian core, which indeed promotes the ideas of Prof. Wirth is also very much pro-Hitler and pro-German; in general they are hostile towards the NSB*, because they see it as too specifically Dutch, too metropolitan and not folkish; they are thus more attracted to groups like Dinaso**."

* Dutch National-Socialist Movement

** Union of Diets (Flemmish-Dutch) National Solidarists

Dinaso or Verdinaso flag

Edited February 19, 2016 by Othar

[The Puzzler]

Ok clear.

I don't want to derive too far, but for completion some last clarifiaction about my stand which may seem rather far fetched.

Knowing perfectly well this could be the case :-)

i personally see them all (plaag, vlaag, vlegel) prety much related around a severe (by time iterative and demanding) coming down from above on something (literaly or figuratively). P-B-V-F as variations on “OP” or “AF”.

I won’t expand too far here on my personal thoughts on language but just to make clear a bit further:

it is not that i really think of “tex” (techs, te-haaks, haakt aan elkaar) and “plek” (vlek, vlecht, plicht) being etymologically related in the exact form:

yet they are often in the meaning and these different forms being used in similar context.

Even ‘tak’ and ‘ploeg’ i think have seen somewhere to be mentionned in the same sentence by etymologists, though ending with the mentionning of some root words without further explanation.

Imo “tex” on one hand is based on a root pointing to an “at-tach-ed interwoven closeness or covering” (tegen ~ tech ~ tess ~ tex) and “plek” (in the form of a stain/sticker), “vlech” (woven interlaced structure, vlecht), “pledge, plechtig, plicht” (attached duty, promess towards others) on the other hand also. Hence they come accross in the context of coverings/imposition/entranglement both literaly as figuratively.

See the texts, tags (label), pledges coming together when talking about laws and solomn promesses attached to subjects.

De eed leg je af, een plicht wordt meestal opgelegd (by oneself or another) … tegen-over …

In that sense “tegen” and “op-leg” (or “af-leg”) as explanation for tex and plech makes sense for me as being related in meaning but i know this is just a personal stand towards etymology.

I love etymology too.

I'm thinking more like this:

The name of Texel in Dutch is Tessel.

Personally, it seems to me to lie in tassel, which lies in etymology of '*day - divide, separate'. teasel - thistle - tease - also the TAKS you speak of. weave, etc.

This seems a likely figurative name for the island of Tessel, Texel. The island is separated from the mainland.

That might be the translation that one comes to, when translated into Dutch – but going backwards it might be different.

You start with tex – teks and a meaning, then it gets changed into a Dutch word, tessel and it has its own etymology that suits, “divide, separated” - the piece of land is ideally suited to be named as such.

The Frisian version of this name is: token – sign – proof – sign – seal - teachings.

Frya gave them this.

token (n.) Old English tacen "sign, symbol, evidence" (related to verb tæcan "show, explain, teach"), from Proto-Germanic *taiknam (cognates: Old Saxon tekan, Old Norse teikn "zodiac sign, omen, token," Old Frisian tekan, Middle Dutch teken, Dutch teken, Old High German zeihhan, German zeichen, Gothic taikn "sign, token"), from PIE root *deik- "to show" (see teach).

Texel in Frisian could mean exactly what the OLB says it does. The place where Frya gave them her Tex, her teachings, her token.

Here’s another example: The name Wieringen has nothing to do with "wier" (seaweed in Dutch), but this connection was often made in former days. Probably the name came from Old Frisian wîr = "height".

This also explains to me how tassel being a Latin derived word can be the meaning of the island but that’s in DUTCH – not in FRISIAN.

Edited February 20, 2016 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Interestingly OLB highlights in several parts how Danish are the best marines, for example:

Tacitus (Germania 44) has the Swedes as possessing a huge fleet, though it's not mentioned specifically if it's of a military marine orientation (as Danes of OLB), or of a civilian sailor orientation (as Phaecian/Frisians). Of note is that he is able to tell something about the Frisians, yet he makes no mention of Frisian naval capabilities whatsoever in 98 AD, other than the Roman navy had ventured into Frisian waters (Germania 34).

Caesar in his The Gallic War of about 58 to 50 BC describes the Briton Veneti people of French Bretagne as being a marine nation with ships larger and superior to the Roman ones*. They are known to had a connection to their Briton cousins in Britannia and their tin trade, which is also mentioned in the OLB.

Interestingly in the Caesar's story the main highlight of the Venetis are their advanced ship building skills and - surprise surpise - their tribal name means 'a boat' in Finnish and Estonian (vene, plural veneet). This odd outside-the-normal linguistical connection between the Finns and Britons of old must have been noticed or known by the Romans, for Tacitus mentions 150 years later in his Germania that the Finnic Estonians (Aesti) look like Germans but speak like Britons (Germania 45).

*Thereby betraying the OLB description of Britons as backwardish somewhat lacking, for high-class naval technology points to opposite. For more information, please also see the Briton traditions as retold by Monmouth, The Mabinogion et al. One could of course ponder that the old Frisians of the OLB had even better ships than the Veneti Britons, and the later Tacitus Frisians were a mere remnant of older sea people and hence their navy is not mentioned.

Hello FF,

That is quite interesting actually. I'm glad you mentioned it.

Estonian

Etymology 1

From Proto-Finnic *veneh.

Noun[edit]

vene ‎(genitive vene, partitive venet)

1. small boat, cut out of a tree trunk
   

I did know about the mention of the same language speech by Tacitus.

So many words like vene, fene, fen could be from this meaning.

Phoenicians somehow then seems to fit perfectly. I'm not sure I buy the traditional 'purple dye' etymology anyhow. Boat-builders was what they were.

Such names as Fenni, Phinnoi, Finnum, and Skrithfinni / Scridefinnum appear in a few written texts starting from about two millennia ago in association with peoples located in a northern part of Europe, but the real meaning of these terms is debatable. The earliest mentions of this kind are usually interpreted to have meant Fennoscandian hunter-gatherers whose closest successors in modern terms would be the Sami people.^[22] It has been suggested that this non-Uralic ethnonym is of Germanic language origin and related to such words as finthan (Old High German) 'find', 'notice'; fanthian (Old High German) 'check', 'try'; and fendo (Old High German) and vende (Old Middle German) 'pedestrian', 'wanderer'.^[23] Another etymological interpretation associates this ethnonym with fen in a more toponymical approach. Yet another theory postulates that the words finn and kven are cognates. The Icelandic Eddas and Norse sagas (11th to 14th centuries), some of the oldest written sources probably originating from the closest proximity, use words like finnr and finnas inconsistently. However, most of the time they seem to mean northern dwellers with a mobile life style.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns

I don't know why the name couldn't be a non-IE word if they were named Fen in their own language, it seems logical that the word could have leapt over to Latin but retain an original Uralic etymology. People who made boats.

The OLB mentions stalwart Finnish rowers.

Edited February 20, 2016 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Just to clarify above - I was talking about Phoenicians then changed to Finns but both having the same Uralic etymological root.

More on what I think TEX is:

teach (v.) Old English tæcan (past tense tæhte, past participle tæht) "to show, point out, declare, demonstrate," also "to give instruction, train, assign, direct; warn; persuade," from Proto-Germanic *taikijan "to show" (cognates: Old High German zihan, German zeihen "to accuse," Gothic ga-teihan "to announce"), from PIE *deik- "to show, point out" (see diction). Related to Old English tacen, tacn "sign, mark" (see token). Related: Taught; teaching. The usual sense of Old English tæcan was "show, declare, warn, persuade" (compare German zeigen "to show," from the same root); while the Old English word for "to teach, instruct, guide" was more commonly læran, source of modern learn and lore. http://www.etymonlin...search=teaching

This is much more likely to be used as an early Germanic-Frisian-English word (TEK) than a foreign French/Latin one (TAK), however that version would be the Dutch usage, as per my post above.

Edited February 20, 2016 by The Puzzler

[Van Gorp]

All very clearifying Puzzler, thanks.

The teken-token-togen-zeigen connection (also in the word ‘tag’) I fully underscribe.

A seemingly different viewpoint is that you relate Tessel with seperation if I understand correctly, where I see more a “closeness” and “connectness” connected with all roots of tek, tex (‘tak’ in Dutch is connected to the tree-trunk, but is also a seperation, division of it). But that is the interesting point in language, are these 2 really counterparts or only on first sight and the one carries the other?

But also teach is related, there we have “duiden” in dutch.

From there you see “be-tekenen” “be-duiden” “toe-dichten” “be-tichten” , the latter which means to accuse in present usage. Here we have the justice part.

Imo teken-teach-zeigen-duiden-tichten-… are all related to the same root as tex-tek-tag is having, again all bearing the meaning "being together/connected" “dichten” and “degelijk”.

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/duiden

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/betichten

THE link from my perspective lies in the middelnederlands word tien, tyen, tihen. Which means “trekken” (to pull, draw). In that sense taecen is the handling of drawing (the line) (-> signature, what is layed down -> recht leggen -> lex or dicere -> dekken -> impose on, again back to “dak” or “recht spreken”, in Greek “deiknumi” “I show”, when written down daktylo, daxtylo,tekstel?).

I must thank Otharus for a beatifull Diets flag he showed :-)

Giving a seemless connection with the expression “Diets maken”.

Hietbrink in his marvellous wordplay assigns “teacher” to “Diets-heer”.

On first sight maybe nothing more than a whimsical wink to the Dutch pro-verb “diets maken”, in the meaning of “we will show you the correctness” “we will make it clear, instruct”.

Well, Diets en “duiden” are in many ways connected.

What if Tex-land in the meaning you propose “The land where the teachings are given”, can be related in some way to Diets-land?

[Van Gorp]

Following link is maybe also revealing:

tijgen: http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/tijgen1

tijgen ww. ‘trekken, gaan’

Onl. tian ‘opvoeden, leiden’ [10^e eeuw. W.Ps.], ‘trekken’ in zich mich nah thir ‘trek mij naar je toe’ [ca. 1100; Will.]; mnl. tien ‘trekken; gaan, zich begeven’, overdrachtelijk ‘opvatten, beschouwen als’ in nv salic seggen voert Dat ic ten meesten wondre tie ‘nu zal ik vervolgens vertellen wat ik als het grootste wonder beschouw’

Here is made en passant also the link with the English word "show", coming from "schouwen" -> litteraly to see or make seen, figuratively "holding in esteem" -> see "takseren" as alternative, Zien (to see) could come from the same "tian". Because that "draws" my attention :-)

Btw sjouwen in Dutch can also be used for "pulling hard".

sjouwen: https://books.google.be/books?id=abNfAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA847&lpg=PA847&dq=sjouwen+trekken+etymologie&source=bl&ots=XjqEuJ-3EJ&sig=cQs14OXjRIl2koL7BGMzuiwK-1w&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjsv6-YsofLAhUIyRQKHVNoCvsQ6AEITTAJ#v=onepage&q=sjouwen%20trekken%20etymologie&f=false

[Passing Time]

i am currently reading Robert Manning of Brunne's , The story of England , AD 1338 in olde Englyshe .in it he makes

mention of the books he has used to write it , which in his time are those that are held in most esteem , as true histories,rather than those that have been written written for payment , to agrandise the current ruler , or claimant of a title for whom the histories have been warped out of all recognition , and because most of them are written in the

language or the lordys reignant ,IE: either fransche or latine the people can neither read them ,and because of this , cannot deny

or confirm their contents , he says his book is written in lowely language for the poor people to understand their origins.

one of those he espouses as true history is that of "Dares the Freson of Troie" ...

"Dares the Freson of Troie was the first who wrote

who put in the buke , that we now wote

he was both a clerk , and gude knight

when troie was lorn , he saw that fight

all of those barons he well knewe

and tells of there stature , and their hewe

whether long or shorte , whyte or blak

all this he tells , gude or lak.

he calls him "Dares the Freson of Troie"..........could this mean that, like the "so called" myths that Aeneas was an early ruler of Latines Kingdom , and the Truscan kingdom through his conquest of Tuscan , the king of Tuscany...... prob foundation of Etruscans ( in my opinion the origin also of La-Tene (Latines ), and Celts which we have found mention of in Apol's blog )......Where Brutus... said to be a direct descendant of Aeneas , is supposed to be a founder of the Britons , probably

both of Brittany , and the British Isles , .......Are the Frisians also originally refugees of Troie ??

note : according to some , the name Celts (Kelts ) was only coined in the 19th Century , it is not what these people called themselves , they most likely saw themselves as La-Tenes , or Latines , first overthrown from Troy , and later overthrown from Italy as Latines or Etruscans,they had to go somewhere !!........why not , France (Brittany ) Britain , and La-Tene ,to become Tru-Scans of Scand-inavia , and later to be confused to history by calling them either Frisians , or Celts.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Passing Time

[Ell]

Odysseus, as far as we know, was the only person who traversed the distance from Troy to the Phaeacians. (I agree that these Phaeacians were the OLB Frysians.)

Plus of course the three ships and their crews he had with him. Apparently he lost at least one of those ships when he tried to leave Walhallagara. According to the OLB he got taken aboard other ships. I guess those were the two other ships of his fleet. They must have been forced to return to Walhallagara. Those two ships must have abandoned him there, I surmise; and also got lost at sea. Eight years later he made his raft and ended up with the Phaeacians.

It so happens that as a result of the Phaeacians' posts, I yesterday did an update of one of my e-books. (My primary interest being the black ships of the black Phaeacians.)

During the past couple of days I also investigated Troy.

As an aside: I have been considering whether Texel = Tessel = Tex-zijl? A zijl is a rope. And does not tex mean 'to weave', if I recall correctly? Could Texel than perchance mean 'where ropes are made'? It is just a silly hypothesis, but I do not want to withhold it from your considerations.

[Ott]

"Dares the Freson of Troie was the first who wrote...

Great find.

So already (or still!) in the 13th century, people believed (or knew) that Phrygius = 'Freson'

Dares Phrygius, according to Homer, was a Trojan priest of Hephaestus. He was supposed to have been the author of an account of the destruction of Troy, and to have lived before Homer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dares_Phrygius

[Tony S.]

Odysseus, as far as we know, was the only person who traversed the distance from Troy to the Phaeacians. (I agree that these Phaeacians were the OLB Frysians.)

Plus of course the three ships and their crews he had with him. Apparently he lost at least one of those ships when he tried to leave Walhallagara. According to the OLB he got taken aboard other ships. I guess those were the two other ships of his fleet. They must have been forced to return to Walhallagara. Those two ships must have abandoned him there, I surmise; and also got lost at sea. Eight years later he made his raft and ended up with the Phaeacians.

It so happens that as a result of the Phaeacians' posts, I yesterday did an update of one of my e-books. (My primary interest being the black ships of the black Phaeacians.)

During the past couple of days I also investigated Troy.

As an aside: I have been considering whether Texel = Tessel = Tex-zijl? A zijl is a rope. And does not tex mean 'to weave', if I recall correctly? Could Texel than perchance mean 'where ropes are made'? It is just a silly hypothesis, but I do not want to withhold it from your considerations.

The identification of the Phaeacians with the Frisians is certainly compelling, as indeed is Spanuth's identification of them with the "Atlanteans", taking his cue, presumably, from L. Sprague de Camp in his book Lost Continents (1948), who makes the same identification, but without assuming Atlantis to be in the North Sea, as Spanuth does.

However, there's a problem, because Kat Kalip, Burchfam of Walhallagara (Walcheren) according to the OLB, is clearly the same person as the nymph Calypso of Ogygia, with whom Odysseus/Ulysses tarried for years. When he finally left Ogygia, the land of the Phaeacians was a further 18 days sail away to the east, according to Homer, where, as both the OLB and Homer tell us, he was shipwrecked. Spanuth, incidentally, identifies Ogygia with the Azores, and allows 18 days sail from there to the North Sea, but the OLB is clear that Ogygia is Walcheren. If this is the case, and if Homer is to be taken literally, we should presumably look for Phaeacia in the eastern part of the Baltic, in the land of the Finns. Perhaps, therefore, de Camp's identification of Phaeacia with Atlantis (i.e. Atland) was right all along.

[FromFinland]

As for the Dares Phrygius, who is Trojan according to Wikipedia's sources, doesn't his surname mean 'a Phrygian', as in 'Phrygian cap'? Wikipedia tells the following on the Phrygians:

According to ancient tradition among Greek historians, the Phrygians anciently migrated to Anatolia from the Balkans. Herodotus says the Phrygians were called Bryges when they lived in Europe.

...

Eric P. Hamp in his 2012 Indo-European family tree classified the Phrygian language together with Italo-Celtic as member of a member of a "Northwest Indo-European" group.

(

Source

)

If the Bryges have a connection to Balkans, how about the Bructeri of Tacitus that are not that far from the Frisian lands? For we must consider that:

Based on archaeological evidence, some scholars such as Nicholas Hammond and Eugene N. Borza argue that the Bryges/Phrygians were members of the Lausitz culture that migrated into the southern Balkans during the Late Bronze Age. (

Source

)

And what is this "Lausitz culture" the wise men speak of? Let's have a look at the map shall we: here. While not a direct match, eerily similar in greater picture isn't it? We're talking about Germanic peoples!

And now I ask, aren't all of those Bructeri and Lausitz culture lands areas more or less the same lands that are described in the Oera Linda story as Frisian lands:

"On one side we were bounded by Wr-alda’s Sea ... on the other side we were hedged in by the broad Twiskland, through which the Finda people dared not come on account of the thick forests and the wild beasts.

Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the East Sea

, and westward to the Mediterranean Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.

The banks of these rivers were at one time entirely inhabited by our people, as well as the banks of the Rhine from one end to the other.

...

As

our country was so great and extensive, we had many different names

. ...

From there to the nearest part of Krekaland

the inhabitants were called Kadhemers, because they never went to sea but remained ashore.

Those who were settled in the higher marches bounded by Twisklanden (Germany) were called Saxmannen, because they were always armed against the wild beasts and the savage Britons. Besides these we had the names Landzaten (natives of the land), Marzaten (natives of the fens), and Woud or Hout zaten (natives of the woods)."

The way I read Oera Linda book's description of Germanics peoples and conciliate it with other sources, surely all the ethnic Germanic peoples of modern-day Germany must be understood as Frisian, not Finnic, in this context. Wouldn't this in turn mean then, that the Bructeri and Bryges-Phrygians of possible Lausitz cultural background were just one of the many Frisian tribes*? Moreover, isn't "the nearest part of Krekaland" the Balkans? If yes, are tribal names like Bructeri, Bryges and Phrygians all corruptions of the original tribal name 'Frisian'? Wouldn't this match perfectly what our friend above cited from the Mannyng's Chronicle, with Bryges-Phrygian meaning a Freson i.e. Frisian ('son of Frey' or 'son of Freya')?

*That related people would have a variance in their tribal names we see also today when we speak of both Britons and Bretons. Likewise, we have the Van people of Nordic mythos in names like Vandals, Andalusia, Vendel, Veneti, Venäjä, Vanaja, Vantaa et cetera.)

Edited March 2, 2016 by FromFinland

[Ell]

L. Sprague de Camp in his book Lost Continents (1948)

I wonder where my copy is... It has been a long time since I read it. I even may have two copies.

However, there's a problem,

None of our ideas about geography apply to those times. It's like comparing apples to pears.

[Ell]

As for the Dares Phrygius, who is Trojan according to Wikipedia's sources, doesn't his surname mean 'a Phrygian', as in 'Phrygian cap'? Wikipedia tells the following on the Phrygians:

According to ancient tradition among Greek historians, the Phrygians anciently migrated to Anatolia from the Balkans. Herodotus says the Phrygians were called Bryges when they lived in Europe.

...

Eric P. Hamp in his 2012 Indo-European family tree classified the Phrygian language together with Italo-Celtic as member of a member of a "Northwest Indo-European" group.

(

Source

)

If the Bryges have a connection to Balkans, how about the Bructeri of Tacitus that are not that far from the Frisian lands? For we must consider that:

Based on archaeological evidence, some scholars such as Nicholas Hammond and Eugene N. Borza argue that the Bryges/Phrygians were members of the Lausitz culture that migrated into the southern Balkans during the Late Bronze Age. (

Source

)

And what is this "Lausitz culture" the wise men speak of? Let's have a look at the map shall we: here. While not a direct match, eerily similar in greater picture isn't it? We're talking about Germanic peoples!

And now I ask, aren't all of those Bructeri and Lausitz culture lands areas more or less the same lands that are described in the Oera Linda story as Frisian lands:

"On one side we were bounded by Wr-alda’s Sea ... on the other side we were hedged in by the broad Twiskland, through which the Finda people dared not come on account of the thick forests and the wild beasts.

Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the East Sea

, and westward to the Mediterranean Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.

The banks of these rivers were at one time entirely inhabited by our people, as well as the banks of the Rhine from one end to the other.

...

As

our country was so great and extensive, we had many different names

. ...

From there to the nearest part of Krekaland

the inhabitants were called Kadhemers, because they never went to sea but remained ashore.

Those who were settled in the higher marches bounded by Twisklanden (Germany) were called Saxmannen, because they were always armed against the wild beasts and the savage Britons. Besides these we had the names Landzaten (natives of the land), Marzaten (natives of the fens), and Woud or Hout zaten (natives of the woods)."

The way I read Oera Linda book's description of Germanics peoples and conciliate it with other sources, surely all the ethnic Germanic peoples of modern-day Germany must be understood as Frisian, not Finnic, in this context. Wouldn't this in turn mean then, that the Bructeri and Bryges-Phrygians of possible Lausitz cultural background were just one of the many Frisian tribes*? Moreover, isn't "the nearest part of Krekaland" the Balkans? If yes, are tribal names like Bructeri, Bryges and Phrygians all corruptions of the original tribal name 'Frisian'? Wouldn't this match perfectly what our friend above cited from the Mannyng's Chronicle, with Bryges-Phrygian meaning a Freson i.e. Frisian ('son of Frey' or 'son of Freya')?

*That related people would have a variance in their tribal names we see also today when we speak of both Britons and Bretons. Likewise, we have the Van people of Nordic mythos in names like Vandals, Andalusia, Vendel, Veneti, Venäjä, Vanaja, Vantaa et cetera.)

Indeed, as described in my e-book "Friso's giant ship": the OLB Frisians were Phrygians.

The Bructeri / Bryges refer to the people from Brugge - an important Flemish town.

[FromFinland]

Ell, apparently I'm tracing the same footsteps you have already taken quite some time ago, already.

[Ell]

Ell, apparently I'm tracing the same footsteps you have already taken quite some time ago, already.

I do am impressed, FF.

[Abramelin]

Indeed, as described in my e-book "Friso's giant ship": the OLB Frisians were Phrygians.

The Bructeri / Bryges refer to the people from Brugge - an important Flemish town.

As soon as you read something (online) in the Phrygian language, you will not be that sure about Phrygians being Frisians.

http://tied.verbix.com/project/glossary/phry.html

.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Abramelin