Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 3]

[Ell]

Just because a translation says 'pray' does not mean that the concept was intended in a religious way. It may very well simply have meant 'they would not ask him for his help' - without any religious nor spiritual significance.

 

The Ynglinga suggestion is a good one.

[FromFinland]

My attention was caught to one small detail in the Oera Linda book and I'll take here a detailed look at this possible literary clue. First we have the Oera Linda book, chapter 24, reportedly seen at the latest in 1860s:

Quote

At last they arrived at the Phœnician coast, one hundred and ninety-three years after Atland was submerged [2000 BC]. Near the coast they found an island with two deep bays, so that there appeared to be three islands. In the middle one they established themselves, and afterwards built a city wall round the place. Then they wanted to give it a name, but disagreed about it. Some wanted to call it Fryasburgt, others Neeftunia; but the Magyars and Finns begged that it might be called Thyrhisburgt. Thyr was the name of one of their idols, and it was upon his feast-day that they had landed there; 

How Norway was Settled, George Dasent translation, 1894:

Quote

There was a man called Fornjot. He had three sons; one was Hler, another Logi, the third Kari; he ruled over winds, but Logi over fire, Hler over the seas. Kari was the father of Jökull, the father of king Snow. But the children of king Snow were these: Thorri, Fönn, Drifa, and Mjol. Thorri was a noble king; he ruled over Gothland, Kvenland, and Finland. To him the Kvens sacrificed that it might be snowy, and that there might be good going on snow-shoon. That was their harvest. That sacrifice was to be at mid-winter; and the month Thorri was called after it.

Also seen in this 1894 translation by same author. Kven are the people of Kainuu, of northern Finland. Reference to the month is a reference to Finnish language: in Finnish language January is tammikuu or 'oak-moon', with the oak tree being Thor's sacred tree. Moreover, one of the Thor's many names,  Oku-Thor, stems possibly from Finnish Ukko-Thor, as mentioned by Viktor Rydberg in 1886–1889.  Of note is also that Finnish folk poetry knows both the Thorri son of Snaer and Fornjot by the names 'Iki-Tiera, son of Niera' and 'eternal Turilas', as per the forn-jótr or 'ancient giant'.

Finnish clergyman Mikael Agricola, foreword to Dauidin Psalttari, my translation, 1551:

Quote

Epäjumalia monia tässä, muinoin palveltiin kaukana ja läsnä. 

Näitä kumarsivat hämäläiset, sekä miehet että naiset. [...] 

Tursas antoi voiton sodassa [...]

False gods many are given here, in ancient times were served at far and at close.

The Tavastians, both men and women, bowed before these. [...]

Tursas gave victory in war [...]

Finnish clergyman Kristfrid Ganander, Mythologia Fennica, my translation, 1789 and reprint 1822:

Quote

Turilas,

vahva jättiläinen [...]

Turri-Turras eli Turrisas,

suomalaisten sodan jumala, joka antoi voiton. Mars, sama kuin ruotsalaisten Thyr, jota palvoivat eniten vanhat soturit.

Karjalan Euräpäässä (Äyräpäässä) on Tyriän-wuori, missä tämä jumala asui, ja sitä sanotaan yhä Tyrjän-Äijäksi. Asukkaat uskovat jumalan kummittelevan ennen sodan syttymistä, lyövän rumpua taivaassa, mistä he ennustavat sodan syttyvän. [...] Eräät vertaavat häntä Thoriin, göötalaisten ylijumalaan eli sodan jumalaan. Vanhassa Ruotsin historiassa taistelua kutsutaan nimellä Thyrarting.

Turilas,

a strong giant [...]

Turri-Turras or Turrisas,

Finnish god of war, who gave victory. Mars, same as the Swedish Thyr, who was worshipped the most by old warriors.

At the Euräpää (Äyräpää) of Karelia is the Tyriä's Mountain, where this god dwelt, and it's still called The Old Man of Tyrjä. The locals believe the god presents himself before the war, drums a drum at the heave, of which they foretell the start of a war. [...] Some compare him to Thor, the Gothic chief deity or war god. In old Swedish history a battle was known as Thyrarting.

Finnish weekly newspaper Turun Viikko-Sanomat, issues 10–11, 20, my translation, 1819:

Quote

Of Väinämöinen.

The only information that Finnish peoples have of Väinämöinen, can be found from the old poems. At the lands of Savonia, Karelia and northern Ostrobothnia are such poems held in honour, for their worth. In these are sung of many odd and miraculous things. [...] How worthy the learned foreigners hold them can be seen from that the German professor von Schröter has translated many poems into German and in bygone years had them printed, when he was in Sweden for many years. [...] The poems mentioned, to which many poets in their fashion have added into, explain in my understanding that at the time when a lot of peoples in northern Europe and Asia lived in the mountain caves and earth pits, such people being called occasionally turilas, lived also the famous honoured Ukko or the Ukko at the mountain created by God, of which Ukko is mentioned in the poem as Lord of North and eternal Strength-Turilas. For long he dwelt in his mountain in such a fashion that others were unaware of him, but at last he came out completely armed and mounted on a saddled horse. His son Väinämöinen or Väinen [...]

An old poem collected by Hans Rudolf von Schröter, Finnische Runen, 1819, my translation: 

Quote

Kawe.

Kawe Ukko, Pohjan Herra,
Ikuinen iku Turilas,
Isä wanha Wäinämöisen [...]

Honoured one.

Honoured Ukko, lord of North [Ostrobothnia]

the evelasting eternal Turilas,

old father of Väinämöinen [...]

Finnish author Eino Kemppainen, Jumalten Sukupuu, my translation, 1933:

Quote

Kaleva, mahtava voima-uros. Hänellä oli 12 poikaa, joiden nimet olivat: [...]

10. Turilas

[...]

12. Turras.

Turilas, Kalevan poikia. (Kts. Kaleva). "Turilas, Kalevan poika, Venyähen sotih sortui, Ruotschiss' oli linnat ollehet". (Anni Bogdanoff, o.s. Remsujeff. Mp. Uhtuella 21.5.1918). Tässä on huomattava, että rajantakaiset karjalaiset voivat sanoa Suomea Ruotsiksi. [...]

Turras, Kalevan poikia. (Kts. Kaleva). "Turthashen, Kallevan poikhan, eivä mitkhän ashet pystynhet". ("Kauppi Pekka eli Pekka Kauppi, Kittilä, jossa kuultu. Suom. Kirj. seuran kokoelmissa.).

Kaleva, a great muscle-man. He had 12 sons, whose names were: [...]

10. Turilas

[...]

12. Turras.

Turilas, one of the sons of Kaleva. (See Kaleva). "Turilas, son of Kaleva, fell in the Russian wars, had castles in Sweden". (Anni Bodganoff, birth name Remsujeff. Noted down at Uhtua 21.5.1918). One must note here that Karelians beyond the border can call Finland a Sweden. [...]

Turras, one of the sons of Kaleva. (See Kaleva). "To Turras, son of Kaleva, no weapon could do harm". ("Kauppi Pekka or Pekka Kauppi, of Kittilä where he was heard. In the collections of The Finnish Literature Society.).

Finnish tourist guide, author and teller of Finland Swedish lore Ior Bock, Bockin perheen saaga, my translation, 1996:

Quote

T – [te:] tor /to:r/. /te/ on ekens tor, tammipuun "tuur". Miehellä on tuurin vasara, tors hammare ja naisella on klitoris [kli: to:r i es]. Ne ovat naisen ja miehen kehon herkimmät kohdat. [...]

Z – [se:ta]. /ta/ on asernas tor, aasereitten tuur, ja /se/ ekens sol, tammen aurinko. [...] Z on myös tuurin salama, tors blixt – välähdys kahden ihmisen välillä, tunne jonka hymy paljastaa. [...]

Kun Danin miehet loivat Danmarkin ja Svenin miehet Sveariketin, heillä oli mukanaan neljä voimaa: Oden, Tor, Frei ja Freia. [...]

Kuudes voima on ruut-kielellä Tor, vaan kielellä Tuur. Tuurilla oli kolme perusmerkitystä: sydän, sydänystävä ja tuurin vasara, tors hammare. Tuur-parin muodosti kaksi ihmistä, miestä tai naista, jotka olivat keskenään sydänystävät. Pakana-aikana oli hyvin tärkeää, että jokaisella miehellä oli sydänystävänään toinen mies ja naisella nainen. [...]

Jääkauden jälkeen Uudenmaan ympärille muodostui erilaisia läänejä. [Listing follows.] Oli myös Frei; siemen, poika, pojanmaa, Pohjanmaa ja Turneå, Tornio ja Tornionjoki, joka virtasi alas etelään Pohjanlahdelle, jossa oli Öriket, Örikets botten, Österbotten. 

T – [te:] tor /to:r/. /te/ is ekens tor, "tuur" of an oak tree. Man has a tuuri's hammer, tors hammare and woman has a clitoris [kli: to:r i es]. They are the woman's and man's bodies the most sensitive parts. [...]

Z – [se:ta]. /ta/ is asernas tor, tuur of the Æsir, and /se/ ekens sol, sun of an oak. [...] Z is also tuuri's lightning, tors blixt – a flash between two persons, a feeling denoted by a smile. [...]

When Dan's men created Danmark and Sven's men the Sveariket, they had four powers with them: Oden, Tor, Frei and Freia [...]

Sixth power is Tor in the root-language, Tuur in the Vanir language. Tuuri had three basic meanings: heart, heartfriend and tuuri's hammer, tors hammare. A tuur-couple consisted of two persons, men or women, who were heartfriends to each other. In the heathen times it was very important that every man had an another man as his heartfriend and a woman an another woman. [...]

After the iceage different kinds of provinces were formed around Uudenmaa. [Listing follows.] There was also Frei; seed, son, son's land, Ostrobothnia ja Turneå, Tornio ja Torne river, which flowed down south to Gulf of Bothnia, where was Öriket, Örikets botten, Österbotten.

For the Tor to have a phallic meaning, compare the Rällinge and Eyrarland figures here and here. For heartfriends, see parts 41, 43–44, 122–124 of the Hávámal here and the symbol 'heart of Tursas' here.

 

Dates

Oera Linda book is spot on for Finns and Thyr. The question is, were these sources available to possible forgers in the 1800s? Let's see:

How Norway was Settled: possibly. The story is contained in the Flateyjarbók kept in Copenhagen, Denmark. First known book copy was available in Denmark in 1860, making it possible that it found it's way into 1860s Netherlands.

Foreword to Dauidin Psalttari: unlikely, as the book is in Finnish, with hardly any attention paid to it outside of Finland. Information on the later prints is not available, suggesting a rather limited distribution from the later centuries' point of view.

Mythologia Fennica: unlikely, but possible. Two print runs in Swedish language at Turku, Finland in 1789 and 1822. Considering that even 20th century Western European academics of Nordic history seem to be rather clueless about the existence of Finnish sources in general, nor have I seen any of them quote Ganander even once, I personally consider it rather unlikely for a Dutchman to have acquired a copy back in the day.

Turun Viikko-Sanomat: unlikely, but possible. The Dutchmen would have needed a Finn as a translator.

Finnische Runen: possibly. A German language print was published in Stuttgart, 1834 and it contained the translated Turilainen poem of which it could be figured out that Turilainen must have been a major figure in Finnish mythos. See page XXI here. 

Jumalten Sukupuu and Bockin perheen saaga: impossible, for both are too new books as sources for Oera Linda book.

 

Conclusion

It's time-wise possible that Dutch forged the reference to Finnish Thyr in the 1860s.  I do not consider the Finnish sources a likely, for they are so never-heard-of by Western European academians still in the 2010s. As Kalevala was translated to languages other than Finnish by the 1850s, it could have pointed to the direction of the Schröter's older 1834 Finnische Runen. A diligent Dutch researcher could research this by searching the old Dutch libraries for copies of 1860 Flateyjarbók' and the 1843 Finnische Runen, especially from the cities frequented by Over de Lindens. If on the other hand it becomes apparent that the manuscript existed already before the 1820s, the possibility of Finnish Thyr being a literary loan or forgery would diminish almost to zero.

Edited July 3, 2016 by FromFinland
Fixed outlook in the English translations.

[FromFinland]

15 hours ago, Ell said:

The Ynglinga suggestion is a good one.

The plot keeps thickening:

Quote

Yngling, as Ottarr the Swarthy sang:

In the East no mighty Yngling
To earth fell, ere o'ertook thee
He who subjected to him
The Sea-isles from the westward.

Yngvi: that too is a king's title, as Markús sang:

The age shall hear the praise of Eiríkr:
None in the world a prince hath known of
Lordlier; thou holdest, Yngvi,
The Seat of Kings with long-kept glory. (Skáldskaparmal chapter LXIV.)

Remember this:

Quote

The term Inka means "ruler" or "lord" in Quechua and was used to refer to the ruling class or the ruling family in the empire. (Wikipedia.)

Konung, kung, king, kuningas, Inka, Ingvaeones, Yngvi... notice the pattern here? Bock 1996 on the Æsir kings, my translation and bolding, page 25:

Quote

Ensimmäinen poika, joka täytti kaksikymmentäseitsemän vuotta, oli Seppo Ilmarinen. Hän oli /ra/, ja ra:sta syntyi maan ihmisten ihmisrotu, ras, race, vaikka Seppo ei itse siittänytkään lapsia. Hän edusti kuuta, joten häntä kutsuttiin arvonimellä kuningas [ko: ring a:s]; /ko/ on kuu, ring on ympyrä – ja aurinkohan on aina ympyrä eli Uuden, ja /a:s/ tarkoittaa aasereita.

Ensimmäinen tyttö, joka täytti kaksikymmentäseitsemän, edusti myös kuuta. Hän oli maan ihmisten kuningatar / ko: ring a: tar/, Maija Ilmatar.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

First son, who turned 27 years old, was Smith Ilmarinen. He was /ra/ and of ra was born the human race of the earth, ras, race, eventhough Smith didn't make children himself. He represented the moon, so was called by the title king [ko: ring a:s]; /ko/ is moon, ring is a circle – and sun is always a circle or Oden, and /a:s/ means the Æsir.

First girl, who turned 27, represented also the moon. She was the earth people's queen /ko: ring a tar/, Maija Ilmatar.

The citation above makes a lot of sense in Finnish context, less so in Germanic context. Ra the moon is Rahko the moon divider (Agricola 1551); smith Ilmarinen (ilma = 'air') is the Ilmarinen god of good air and travellers (Agricola 1551); and sister-queen Maija Ilmatar none other than the Malla, wife of Ilmarinen (Kauppi pre-1894, Kemppainen 1933).

This Finland Swedish source makes a curious statement, that the name of the American continent was in olden heathen times India, or Intia in Finnish (Bock 1996). This reference could be a misunderstanding of the Columbus story, though I note the Incas do in fact have such a word:

Quote

Inti is the ancient Incan sun god. He is revered as the national patron of the Inca state. [...]

Worshiped as a patron deity of the Inca Empire, he is of unknown mythological origin. [...]

The founding Inca ancestor, known as Manco Cápac, was thought to have been the son of Inti. According to an ancient myth, Inti taught his son Manco Cápac and his daughter Mama Ocllo the arts of civilization and they were sent to earth to pass this. [...]

Inti ordered his children to build the Inca capital where a divine golden wedge they carried with them would penetrate the earth [i. e. "thunderstone" or "Ukko's wedge"]. Incas believed that this happened in the city of Cusco. The Inca ruler [i. e. "Inka"] was considered to be the living representative of Inti. [...]

The emperor and his family were believed to be descended from Inti.

A great golden disk representing Inti was captured by the Spanish conquistadors in 1571 and was sent to the pope via Spain. It has since been lost.

We go a full circle and we have here again the golden sun or Oden the sun, by way of the ring or disk. Incas however were only one of the various Indian nations and situated at the back side of the American continent (map), when viewed from the Europe: wouldn't one think that the theoretical Frisians explorers would have entered the North America instead, like their Icelandic cousins later? Unless they took a land journey, they would likely went to the Incan lands by the way of the southern Golfstream (see here) and the Isthmus of Panama (see here).

Edited July 3, 2016 by FromFinland
Added map links.

[Ell]

Don't be fooled by geography. Even though the names are identical, the geography of anything before 400 A.D. does not apply to the geography as we know it.

 

Today I did an upload of updates of the e-book with my interpretation of Aeneid VI. I included the remarks by Passing Time and FromFinland about the Ingaevones and Ynglings.

[FromFinland]

Earlier here I have pondered on the distinctive similarities between the Finnish Boxström family saga and the Austro-Hungarian Wiligut family saga. This could have a much relevance for OLB studies, for if we can't explain the strong but yet unexplainable correlation between those two sources (point # E here), then what are we to conclude other than, that they both represent genuine family lores from the historical time period, as opposed to being fake lores? Both detail an old Europe in much the same general spirit as OLB: hierarchically organised, full writing systems (and not just mere alphabets) in use already in way back, honourable high-status women in Nordic society, castle systems (again, not just random castles here and there) and so on - these should all ring bells for OLB students in a major way.

As some of the Boxström saga material was published in German language in the 1990s, it might theoretically have been possible for the source of the corresponding information (Gabriele Winckler-Dechend) to have read of it somehow in the early 1990s, and to have falsely presented it in her 1997 correspondence to a researcher as an old 1930s story. Based on the literary sources available, we can conclude now with quite a certainty that the German source did not have that option available to her, even if she had read in German language of the Boxström family saga. For those few German language sources have been uploaded to internet and we can check for ourselves from here (Positive Foundation 1992) and here (Der Spiegel 49/1993) whether they contained the peculiar snake ring story and the snake and rose symbology of 'Karelian-Aryan' immigrants to Central European knightly orders. The answer is no, they were not available.

It has been suggested to this author that maybe there existed a now lost source in the early 1900s for both the Finnish and German-Austro-Hungarian traditions, of which both could have read the the same story. While theoretically possible, it's highly unlikely for two reasons: first, no such source is known despite the quite advanced scanning of old literary source into searchable e-sources and secondly, the fact that on both stories the direct resemblance is a mere minor detail mentioned in passing (i. e. the sources did not directly copy each other, yet form together a superbly coherent narrative). 

Student's of OLB ought check the page 9 of the 1992 Positive Foundation text and compare it to pages 46-47 of the OLB (link). For comparison, see also this similarity from 1906, though we must note that this is a channelled or intuituvely received source and not of alleged old family tradition.

Mr. Leo Nygren, an old pensioner from Helsinki and formerly a close friend of the Ior Bock of the Boxström saga, has uploaded photos of the peculiar Boxström family walking stick here and here, resembling the description of the similar Wiliguts walking stick, save for use of metal gold in the pommel (Flowers 2001, 142).

 

Mr. Nygren also points out in his website gallery that a "Dutch map from the year 1675" (picture link) calls the Karelian Isthmus (Wikipedia link) "Europæ" after the Äyräpää, or 'head of Äyrä', a borough (Wikipedia link) and place of the old Äyrämöiset folk (Wikipedia link). Whether this was a funny mistake by 17th century Dutch cartographers, or bears actual relevance to stuff like this or this (1st chapter), I don't know. We must keep in mind however the possibility that the ancient Mediterraneans knew of these Northern lands, with the 6th century Jordanes calling the geographically nearby Inkeri or Aunus Inauxis and 2th century Claudius Ptolemaios calling the Karelians Careotae (Pasi Ockenström, Fenni vai ei, 2010, pages 70-71). Moreover, the Finnish Äyräpää has an etymological relation to the Greek Europa:

Europa: eurys 'wide' or 'broad' and ops 'eye(s)' or 'face'

Äyräpää: äyräs 'bank of river' and pää 'head'. (Source link and link.)

Edited July 13, 2016 by FromFinland
Added Äyräpää-Europe.

[FromFinland]

India

Gosa, Oera Linda book, chapter 44:

"Sixteen hundred years ago, Atland was submerged; and at that time something happened which nobody had reckoned upon. In the heart of Findasland, upon a mountain, lies a plain called Kasamyr that is “extraordinary.”

Pliny the Elder, The Natural History, chapter 20: 

"Amometus has written a work entirely devoted to the history of these people, just as Hecatæus has done in his treatise on the Hyperborei. After the Attacori, we find the nations of the Phruri and the Tochari, and, in the interior, the Casiri, a people of India, who look toward the Scythians, and feed on human flesh."

There are three similarities between the two narratives, all presented in the same order:

"in the heart of Findasland" — "in the interior"

"Kasamyr" — "Casiri"

"that is extraordinary" — "feed on human flesh".

 

Amber

Uknown, Oera Linda book, chapter 21:

"Those who were settled to the east of Denmark were called Jutten, because often they did nothing else than look for amber on the shore."

Pliny the Elder, The Natural History, chapter 27: 

"After passing the Riphæan mountains we have now to follow the shores of the Northern Ocean on the left, until we arrive at Gades. In this direction a great number of islands are said to exist that have no name; among which there is one which lies opposite to Scythia, mentioned under the name of Raunonia, and said to be at a distance of the day's sail from the mainland; and upon which, according to Timæus, amber is thrown up by the waves in the spring season. ...

Passing this coast, there are three and twenty islands which have been made known by the Roman arms: the most famous of which is Burcana, called by our people Fabaria, from the resemblance borne by a fruit which grows there spontaneously. There are those also called Glæsaria by our soldiers, from their amber; but by the barbarians they are known as Austeravia and Actania."

William Smith in his Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography from 1854 thinks Glæsaria as the Dutch Ameland. John Bostock in his 1855 The Natural History consider it more likely to have been either Öland or Gotland, latter of which has an etymological connection to Jutes and jotuns. Nora Kershaw translation, The Saga of Hervör and Heithrek, chapter 1: 

"It is said that in the days of old the northern part of Finnmark was called Jötunheimar, and that there was a country called Ymisland to the south between it and Halogaland. These lands were then the home of many giants and half-giants; for there was a great intermixture of races at that time, because the giants took wives from among the people of Ymisland.

There was a king in Jötunheimar called Guthmund. He was a mighty man among the heathen. He dwelt at a place called Grund in the region of Glasisvellir. He was wise and mighty. He and his men lived for many generations, and so heathen men believed that the fields of immortality lay in his realm; and whoever went there cast off sickness or old age and became immortal.

After Guthmund's death, people worshipped him and called him their god. His son's name was Höfund. He had second sight and was wise of understanding, and was judge of all suits throughout the neighbouring kingdoms. He never gave an unjust judgment, and no-one dared violate his decision."

Edited July 14, 2016 by FromFinland

[Ell]

On 13-7-2016 at 3:11 AM, FromFinland said:

Wiligut

Useful, this name is. Thank you.

[Abramelin]

On ‎22‎-‎6‎-‎2016 at 1:54 PM, Ell said:

As for Inka and the Inca, I recommend that one google for "Secret Cities of Old South America" wilkins fresolano.

It is a 1998 reprint of a 1952 book. In it one Glaura is quoted, who claims to be of the noble blood of the old Frisians.

 

I have posted about this years ago.

It's about the rendering by Suffridus Petrus of Marcus Hamconius' claim that Frisian noblemen in the year 1000 AD had set up an adventurous expedition to reach the other side of the Atlantic.

According to a Chilean friar these Frisians were the first settlers in Chile (aside of the native Americans, of course).

I have the Spanish text with a translation into English somewhere, so maybe next time I'll post it.

Anyway, it has nothing to do with the OLB Inka: it's about 3000 years off.

-

 

I haven't read this thread (and any other thread) for months, so excuse me if maybe someone has asked me something and I didn't respond.

 

 

 

 

[Ell]

7 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I have posted about this years ago.

It's about the rendering by Suffridus Petrus of Marcus Hamconius' claim that Frisian noblemen in the year 1000 AD had set up an adventurous expedition to reach the other side of the Atlantic.

It must have been the Inca that spread south into Chile.

7 hours ago, Abramelin said:

According to a Chilean friar these Frisians were the first settlers in Chile (aside of the native Americans, of course).

Do you have a reference to that friar? Maybe I already read about him.

7 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I have the Spanish text with a translation into English somewhere, so maybe next time I'll post it.

I have translated about ten lines from the Spanish into Dutch and English and added it to my Aeneid VI e-book.

7 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Anyway, it has nothing to do with the OLB Inka: it's about 3000 years off.

It is weird, yes. But I myself do belief that it relates to the OLB.

Anyway, those several Indian civilizations appear to be at least seven hundred (up to eighteen hundred) years younger than I would expect.

These last few months I have occasionally wondered about the chronology - and its construction - of our history. What if all modern human civilizations are no more than say eight hundred years old?

But then there are other arguments suggesting an age at least twice that. And still other arguments suggesting indeed events in the age range you mention.

 

 

[Ott]

22 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I haven't read this thread (and any other thread) for months, so excuse me if maybe someone has asked me something and I didn't respond.

Welcome back, Abramelin. I hope you are doing well.

I also have not been active here for a long time, but am still working hard on a new English translation (with two people improving my English), that will be really easily comparable with the original (transliterated) language as well as with the original (photographed) pages. In other words, it will make scientific investigation of the texts much easier.

[Abramelin]

Ell, this is the link to the book of the friar:

http://www.anales.uchile.cl/index.php/ANUC/article/viewFile/25094/26434

 

Even when you only read the titel of that book, you will know it's about Frisians discovering Chile.... in the XI th century.

 

One of the oldest civilizations (or maybe culture) in the Americas is the one they found in Peru a couple of years ago: Caral (in the Sipa Valley if I remember well). They constructed round pyramids and other large ceremonial buildings, and they did that some hundred years before the Egyptians built the pyramids of Gizeh: 2700 BCE. It had nothing to do with the Incas who started almost 4000 later, and the Caral culture didn't resemble anything 'Frisian' or 'Fryan'.

 

I remember I asked months ago if anyone had found those Inka Islands. I think it's simply this: they have found ancient pottery on Isla de Marajo (an island the size of Switserland in the mouth of the Amazon) that resembled Inca pottery to a point, that some scientists assume(d) that one may have influenced the other, hence the name Inca Islands. But you may like this: it is known for its artificial mounds...

 

 

EDIT:

Caral: http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1269

Marajó: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marajoara_culture

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2016 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Ott said:

Welcome back, Abramelin. I hope you are doing well.

I also have not been active here for a long time, but am still working hard on a new English translation (with two people improving my English), that will be really easily comparable with the original (transliterated) language as well as with the original (photographed) pages. In other words, it will make scientific investigation of the texts much easier.

 

Thanks for the welcome back, Ott. Yep, I'm doing fine, working in the baking sun and pouring rain, lol: I work as a gardener ("hovenier").

 

I look forward to see that translation of yours

[Ell]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Ell, this is the link to the book of the friar:

http://www.anales.uchile.cl/index.php/ANUC/article/viewFile/25094/26434

It is only ten pages. I have downloaded it and will try to read it.

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Even when you only read the titel of that book, you will know it's about Frisians discovering Chile.... in the XI th century.

They must have been Inca Frisians. Inca structures in Peru - as well as Toltek structures in Mexico or thereabouts - are from about the same period if I recall correctly. This is weird. I would have expected such events to have happened before 400 A.D. perchance even before 600 B.C. It is one of the reasons that I question our historical record. Can it be that the Mediaeval Ages, the Dark Ages never happened? That no time elapsed between say 400 A.D. and say 1300 A.D.? That it is merely asserted, based on incorrectly applied evidence, that there was that much time between those dates, whereas in fact they were only one day apart from one another.

I am merely speculating ... but I do wonder.

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

One of the oldest civilizations (or maybe culture) in the Americas is the one they found in Peru a couple of years ago: Caral (in the Sipa Valley if I remember well). They constructed round pyramids and other large ceremonial buildings, and they did that some hundred years before the Egyptians built the pyramids of Gizeh: 2700 BCE. It had nothing to do with the Incas who started almost 4000 later, and the Caral culture didn't resemble anything 'Frisian' or 'Fryan'.

That was before Lyda, Finda and Frya were created, so indeed of no relevance.

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

I remember I asked months ago if anyone had found those Inka Islands. I think it's simply this: they have found ancient pottery on Isla de Marajo (an island the size of Switserland in the mouth of the Amazon) that resembled Inca pottery to a point, that some scientists assume(d) that one may have influenced the other, hence the name Inca Islands.

 

The Inca territory is Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia; all on the west of South America. Naylamp landed in Peru on the Pacific coast. The only other possible foreign Inca ancestor was the sun god who emerged from lake Titicaca.

Clearly any South American east coast islands / territories are not pertinent.

 

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

But you may like this: it is known for its artificial mounds...

It is extremely unlikely that those mounds have anything to do with the mounds in Frisia.

People have been building mounds all over the world for different purposes. For example the burial mounds of the Vikings.

[Abramelin]

Ell, where in the OLB it is said when Lyda, Finda and Frya were created? I can tell you: nowhere in the OLB.

You were thinking of 2194 BCE, the date of the disaster.

 

If you click on the Caral link in my former post, you will see that that civilization was still in existence when the OLB Inka was supposed to have sailed to South America. So yeah, it is relevant.

 

And the Inka Islands should be located in the mouth of the Amazon, because that's what some New Yorker (?) told Ottema  (in support of the theory that the OLB-Inka may have reached South America).

---

Btw, my remark "you may like this..." when I mentioned these mounds was just in jest. I do know mounds were built all over the world.  Anyway, those mounds on Isla de Marajó were built for the same reason the Frisians built theirs

 

 

Edited July 28, 2016 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

On ‎27‎-‎7‎-‎2016 at 7:06 PM, Ell said:

It is only ten pages. I have downloaded it and will try to read it.

 

 

In fact the complete book has more than 500 pages (pdf):

http://www.archive.org/stream/losaborjenesdec00medigoog/losaborjenesdec00medigoog_djvu.tx

 

Here is the translation I promised:

 

Un fraile dominicano llamado frai Gregorio García, que gastó
largos años de su vida en la composición de un estenso i erudito
libro en que se propuso investigar el oríjen de los indios del
Nuevo Mundo, refiriéndose especialmente a Chile, piensa que los
habitantes del país de Frislandia o de la Frisia fueron sus pri-
meros pobladores.

=

A Dominican monk named Father Gregorio García, who spent
 many years of his life composing an extensive and scholarly
 book in which he set out to investigate the origin of the Indians of the
 New World, with particular reference to Chile, thought
 inhabitants of the country of Friesland or Frisia were its first
 settlers.

=

Espone que los frisios eran tenidos desde época mui remota
como grandes navegantes i conocedores del arte náutico, a cuyo
intento se contaba que el año mil de nuestra era, varios nobles
del país, seguidos de buen número de aventureros, armaron una
espedicion que, según se cree, llegó hasta la isla de Cuba."

=

He posed about the Frisians - who were held to be, from very remote times,
great navigators and connoisseurs of the nautical arts - that it is told that in the

year one thousand of our era, several noble men of their country, followed by a

good number of adventurers, put together a expedition which, it is believed,

came to the island of Cuba. "

=

Sufrido Pedro," agrega en apoyo de la misma teoría, que,
csupuesto la destreza en la navegación i del deseo de ver cosas
nuevasD no es difícil deducir que los indios de Chile i aún los
del Perú desciendan de los frisios. Pruébase, ademas, este aserto,
dice el mismo autor, porque la india Glaura, refiriendo sus aven-
turas al famoso don Alonso de Ercilla, le aseveró que era des-
cendiente de la antigua sangre de Frisia, según aquellos versos
que rezan:

=

"Siffridus Petrus," he adds in support of the same theory, "from their
 skill in navigation and wanting to see new things,
 it's not hard to deduce that the Indians of Chile and even
 of Peru descended from the Frisians. "Moreover as proof", the author
 added, "because of the indian woman called Glaura [- recounting her adven-
 tures with the famous Don Alonso de Ercilla -] who said she was a
 descendant of ancient Frisian blood", according to these verses
 which read:

=

Mi nombre es Glaura, en fuerte hora nacida,
Hija del buen cacique Quilacura
De la sangre de Frisio esclarecida.'*

=

My name is Glaura, born in mighty hours,
 Daughter of the good chief Quilacura
 From pure Frisian blood

 

 

=

Edited July 29, 2016 by Abramelin

[Ell]

On 28-7-2016 at 5:45 PM, Abramelin said:

Ell, where in the OLB it is said when Lyda, Finda and Frya were created? I can tell you: nowhere in the OLB.

Quite. It is inferred. They three each were the first of the three new types of humans. (In one of my books I deduce that there were nine hundred versions of each, representing in total 2700 different ancestor populations.) They were the first intellectually mature specimens of the new types of humans. Such super beings are not born spontaneously. They must have been created; this is supported by various mythology that states that human beings were created.

[Ell]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

He posed about the Frisians - who were held to be, from very remote times,
great navigators and connoisseurs of the nautical arts - that it is told that in the

year one thousand of our era, several noble men of their country, followed by a

good number of adventurers, put together a expedition which, it is believed,

came to the island of Cuba. "

I read that in the text I downloaded. This argument, however, is in error. This is about the expedition described, I seem to recall, by Adam of Bremen. I have discussed that expedition in one of my unpublished - and not completed - books (about ancient and mediaeval geography). I know where that expedition got to and it wasn't Cuba. This argument is irrelevant to the Frisian origin of the Inca.

Quote

"Siffridus Petrus," he adds in support of the same theory, "from their
 skill in navigation and wanting to see new things,
 it's not hard to deduce that the Indians of Chile and even
 of Peru descended from the Frisians. "Moreover as proof", the author
 added, "because of the indian woman called Glaura [- recounting her adven-
 tures with the famous Don Alonso de Ercilla -] who said she was a
 descendant of ancient Frisian blood", according to these verses
 which read:

My name is Glaura, born in mighty hours,
Daughter of the good chief Quilacura
From pure Frisian blood

I have already added those lines and others in Dutch and English translations to the respective versions of my Aeneid VI e-books. However, they do not constitute in any way proof that the Frisian Incas arrived in the ancestral Inca territory in the eleventh century.

 

Wikipedia: " The Sican (also Sicán) culture is the name that archaeologist Izumi Shimada gave to the culture that inhabited what is now the north coast of Peru between about AD 750 and 1375".

 

Those dates are more to my liking. Given that it might take a couple of centuries after arrival before the culture presented itself, then the Frisian Inca could indeed have arrived there before 400 A.D.

I wonder whether the name Naylamp could have a Frisian etymology. It is more likely that it is Inca (i.e. Quechua), though, and that it will have a Quechua etymology.

 

Edited July 29, 2016 by Ell

[jmccr8]

Hi Abe ,good to see you here and that things are keeping you busy. 

[Ott]

BBC News yesterday. "Facial reconstruction made of Bronze Age woman 'Ava'"

No Idea how they do it, but she looks just like some of the girls from my youth. :-)

[Passing Time]

Bit of a longshot , but just as some names have the ending of the god you worship , say like Tutankh-Amun

or Akhen-Aten...... could Welsh names like Cad-Waladr or place names like LLangad-Waladr relate to Wr-Alda ??

[FromFinland]

9 hours ago, Passing Time said:

Bit of a longshot , but just as some names have the ending of the god you worship , say like Tutankh-Amun

or Akhen-Aten...... could Welsh names like Cad-Waladr or place names like LLangad-Waladr relate to Wr-Alda ??

In this case, I guess not. The mainstream etymology has this to say on the topic, and one 12th century author of Breton ancestry and living then in Wales has name Cornwall come from Corineus. Likewise the same 12th century source paints the Welsh-Britons as remnants of Troyan Brutus, or of the same Mediterranean race as Romans for example. Other sources correlate (another here) the Welsh-Bretonic connection, but do not go so far as to correlate the Brutus theme.

That being said, there is a Swedish surname Wallander and I wonder if it has connection to the Cadwallon and Cadwalader: they reigned at the time when Saxons and Anglos of Nordic heritage had already been quite for some time at the British isles, hence making it a theoretical possibility that modern Wallander would be a leftover from those days of Britons and Anglo-Saxons. Mainstream view on the Wallander surname can be read from here.

On another topic, I have acquired a reprint Yrjö von Grönhagen's 1948 book Himmlerin Salaseura ("Himmler's Secret Society"), where he speaks of his days at Ahnenerbe and of Karl Maria Wiligut. As this is a firsthand report by a Finn who knew Wiligut personally, I'll report back later if I find clues relevant to Oera Linda studies, or to Irminsaga's similarities to Oera Linda and Väinämöinen mythologies, for all three sources parallel each other meaningfully in some parts.

 

Edited August 21, 2016 by FromFinland

[Elsupremo]

Have you ever seen the sun and the moon in the sky at the same time, as I have and noticed that the moon is halved or quartered while the sun is fully visible in the sky. That is an impossible angle for the shadow of the earth to block out the Suns reflection. This phenomenon has led some to believe that it is the mythical Black Sun that is eclipsing the Sun during an eclipse and not the moon. The Black Sun is also of course causing the phases of the moon by their theory.

[FromFinland]

On 8/21/2016 at 11:35 PM, Elsupremo said:

Have you ever seen the sun and the moon in the sky at the same time, as I have and noticed that the moon is halved or quartered while the sun is fully visible in the sky. That is an impossible angle for the shadow of the earth to block out the Suns reflection. This phenomenon has led some to believe that it is the mythical Black Sun that is eclipsing the Sun during an eclipse and not the moon. The Black Sun is also of course causing the phases of the moon by their theory.

I have and wasn't aware of the Black Sun explanation as a cause for it until you told of it. So thanks, but also sorry a bit for being so late to reply. For comparison, one Finnish story similar to Oera Linda story, the Väinämöinen's mythology or Bock saga, has myths about the cosmos: sun, moon, stars, pole star and our planet but not about black suns of any kind. Nor were the Austro-Hungarians and the Germans of the Irminsaga were aware of any such matter. Please read this quote about the latter #1142 here and also both Tony S' and Ell's comments right after it.

Edited August 30, 2016 by FromFinland

[FromFinland]

Like most other Nordic sources, Oera Linda book speaks of both giants and Æsir:

Black Adel was the fourth king after Friso. In his youth he studied first at Texland, and then at Staveren, and afterwards travelled through all the states. When he was twenty-four years old [1] his father had him elected Asega-Asker. As soon as be became Asker he always took the part of the poor. [2] ... King Askar, as he was always called [3], was seven feet high, and his strength was as remarkable as his height.[4] He had a clear intellect, so that he understood all that was talked about, but in his actions he did not display much wisdom [5].  – Oera Linda book, chapter 53.

We analyse the text part by part:

[1] "When he was twenty-four years old"

For comparison, in Finland Swedish saga of the Boxström family, the would-to-be-king born to the ruling Æsir family becomes a king of Finland at the age of 27. Source: Ior Bock 1996, Bockin perheen saaga, page 25. 

[2] "his father had him elected Asega-Asker. As soon as be became Asker he always took the part of the poor."

Asega meaning a wise man or elder, referring etymologically to the Æsir as higher fountain of higher knowledge. Noteworthy is that Frisian asegeir consisted of twelve men, likewise Finnish Æsir kings had a family consisting of a brotherhood of twelve wise men brothers, with the Æsir king as the eldest. This is confirmed by Snorri, according to whom amongst the Æsir "It was the custom there that twelve temple priests should both direct the sacrifices, and also judge the people. They were called Diar, or Drotner, and all the people served and obeyed them." Finns call this this people sons of Kaleva, with Finland Swedes confirming the Diar-name. Thus the implicit position of Frisian king Askar as member of a twelve wise men is supported by both Scandinavian and Finnish sources. Sources: Snorri Sturluson, The Ynglinga Saga, 2. Of the people of Asia; Snorri Sturluson, Prose Edda, Gylfaginning; Hélène Guerber 1909, Myths of the Norsemen, The Story of Heligoland; Ior Bock 1996, Bockin perheen saaga, pages 26, 35, 40, 42.

[3] "King Askar, as he was always called"

That Adel receives the name Askar upon receiving his kinghood, is similar to Scandinavian and Finland Swedish sources:

• "I'm called Godmund, and I'm the ruler of Glasir Plains ... My father, Ulfhedin Trusty, was known as Godmund, as all the other rulers of Glasir Plains have been". Source: Thorstein Mansion-Might, chapter 5.
• "Bock means a buck. It's also a title, which refers to Buck Lemminkäinen. In Väinämöinen's mythology Lemminkäinen is the breeder, but Ior didn't hold this title. According to the family tradition Ior is by his title Ärs av Raseborg, Seppo Ilmarinen of Raasepuri. Ior's sister Rachel was Mai av Raseborg, Maija Ilmatar of Raasepuri. These titles didn't belong to the nobility, but were of the family's own heritage. Family system determined, who received what title. ... First son who turned 27 years old, was Seppo Ilmarinen. ... He represented the moon, so he was called by title of a king". Source: Ior Bock 1996, Bockin perheen saaga, pages 7, 25.

[4] "was seven feet high, and his strength was as remarkable as his height."

Using the ancient North German foot as a measurement, seven feet equals whopping 2,34 meters. Other sources point consistently to same direction:

• "If the son of [an Æsir] disa grew tall and strong, he got the right to became a governor or rabi ...  If the boy born to disa was thought fit for fatherhood, he became a breeder. Then the boy was made into governor or landshövding. So that he became a governor, he had to go to West Uusimaa, where castle Raseborg was situationed. Even today next to it lies a place called Jungkarlsborg or Junkarspuri. At Junkarspuri young would to be rabis waited, that [Æsir] king would babtise them as governors." Of major importance to topic is to note that these "tall" and "strong" Æsir were minor kings in their own rights, directly under a high king, thus equating Nordic kingship with physical demeanor. Source: Ior Bock 1996, Bockin perheen saaga, pages 26–27.
• Finnish ruling family is notable for it's large physical size in Finnish speaking lore, too: sons of Kaleva are outright giants. Meanwhile, Scandinavian sources calls the high king of Finland, Kvenland and Gotland Fornjót or "ancient giant", the Iki-Turilas of the Finns, again highlighting the immense physical size of Nordic kings. This is a consistent theme in Nordic sagas: the member of the Norwegian branch of the Finnish kingline are also mentioned especially for their large size. Moreover, we must remind that the dynasties of the Æsir and Fornjót are merely different names for one and the same king dynasty which intermarried with the Swedish Ynglingas and had descendants in Denmark and royal branch in Norway. Sources: Snorri Sturluson, The Ynglinga Saga, 15 Of Swedge & 16. Of Vanlande, Swedge's Son; The Saga of Thorstein Viking's Son, Here begins the saga of Thorstein, Viking's son; The Saga of Hervör and Heithrek, chapters 1–2, 5–6, The Orkneyingers' Saga, Fundinn Noregr.
• at Eura, Western Finland the Iron age skeletons found from the graves show the height of men to have been 190+ cm, again confirming the tallness. Source.
• Odin the Æs' forefathers included Bölthorn the giant, confirming the Æsir-giant connections.
• Greek paint the very tall Hyperboreans in Nordic outlook with some of the placements suggesting Eastern Europe, Northern Europe or Western Asia which are all also homelands of the Æsir as suggested by Snorri. The Mediterranean description of Hyperborean dynasty bear a strong similarity to the description of the Finnic Guthmund. Hyperboreans lived in an Arctic island and we note both Scandinavia and Finland were traditionally calles "islands". Nordic Ättestupa tradition of the Hyperboreans is attested by Greeks as well. Moreover the story of Guthmund has a very close literary parallel in Old Testament about giants, yet that same part has very close literary parallel to Väinämöinen son of Iki-Turilas. Of importance is to know here that the description of Goliath the giant in Old Testament is likely a literary loan taken from older Greek source Iliad. Separate from the Greek and Hebrew sources, there exists a direct paragon of similar name in both Scandinavian and Finnish mythologies. Finally, the Greek themselves depict a Greek-Hyperborean diplomatic connection, which is backed by a Finland Swedish source. Sources: The Saga of Hervör and Heithrek, chapter 1; Thorstein Mansion-Might, chapter 5; Old Testament, Genesis 6:4, 1 Samuel 17:4; Turun Viikko-Sanomat 1819, issues 10–11, 20, Kristfrid Ganander 1789, Mythologia Fennica, Saaris (Saari); Ior Bock 1996, Bockin perheen saaga, pages 23, 27–28.

[5] "He had a clear intellect, so that he understood all that was talked about, but in his actions he did not display much wisdom"

Please compare this pair of understanding talk but not being of wisdom itself to the description of a Finland Swedish Æsir king, which in turn is paralleled by a Scandinavian source:

"When the court jesters came to ask for advice from the Old Man sitting at the top of the mountain, they came first to the island of Oden and stood at the outside of the fire pit ring. Inside the fire pit ring and at the front of the Valhalla stood Seppo Ilmarinen. Above the Valhalla on the mountain stood a symbolical golden buck statue and above it sat Old Man on his rock boulder. The spokeman for the court jesters made the question to the Seppo over the fire and he forwarded the question to the Old Man. Old Man sat and kelasi or thought. ... Old Man gave the answer back down to the Seppo, who retold it over the fire to the court jesters.

Old Man's first son Seppo went always with him. When Old Man asked about something from his younger sons, he always made the question first to Seppo, who would made further inquiries to his brothers. The answer came back in the same way. In this way all things went through the first son. When Old Man spoke outside with other peoples, the oldest son was always with him. 

The court jesters arrived at the fiery half ring, where an open parliament was born. In this way all people present understood what Seppo asked from the Old Man and what Old Man answered. In the same way sun shines and moon reflects the sun rays to humans. This was the natural order." 

Sources: Ior Bock 1996, Bockin perheen saaga, page 35; Snorri Sturluson, Prose Edda, Gylfaginning.

 

Conclusions

• Within the Oera Linda book's story of Black Adel  is contained a cultural reference to Nordic Æsir and giants (4), with even the naming patterns (3) and rhetoric matching (5).
• This is either a masterful literary forgery or a literary remnant of once common Nordic cultural heritage. Whether Finland Swedish Väinämöinen's mythology of the 1980s lifts information from the Oera Linda book in these mattters, is unclear with more research needed. The Finland Swedish version makes perfect sense in Finnic context and contains a lot of information not found in Oera Linda book, but paralleling those of other old sources. Forgery theory would neccessarily require both the Over de Lindens and Boxströms, or their associates, to have been masterful forgers. Moreover, if this one Finland Swedish source is left out of the question, the close parallels to other sources remain still.
• It's not neccessarily a requirement to look for direct Finnic Æsir origins for Frisian king Askar. It's clear that most Nordic nations had their own central system of alleged Æsir origins, with cultural parallels. Both Frisians and Finns share the three founders myth (Frya, Lyda, Finda; Fin, Sven and Dan), refer to Æsir (tall Asega-Askar, Wodin; Æsir living in Odenma), have seven islands with Walhalla on it (seven islands and Walhallagara; seven islands of Suomenlinna and Valhalla), have stories reminiscent of Atlantis (4.2 kiloyear event and Atland; 8.2 kiloyear event and Alt land is) and finally, both utilise one and the same core writing system (more on this later). 
• Interestingly the Finland Swedish source claims a rank of heritage for the Nordic systems, stemming from the Gotland island. Unsurprisingly the Finnish Æsir system is ranked as the most archaic of the Nordic pagan systems, with separate headsman and king and complete set of eight symbolic powers (Hel, Bock, i, Oden, Ra, Tor, Frei and Freia). Other Nordics by the way of Danish and Swedes allegedly retain only four symbolic powers (Oden, Tor, Frei and Freia) and imitate other cultures by having at the society's top only the king with the dual function of a breeder and ruler. Danish are presented as originators of the continental Nordics and later the English. As the Danish line is said to have given birth to other kingdoms in turn, this would make them theoratically the forefathers of the Frisians too as you get the English at the other end of the same line. This gradual differing from the Gotlandic urheimat would also explain the differences in details: 24 years versus 27 years, election of king instead of direct birth to king's position. That being said, we must also be careful of putting too much emphasis on one Finland Swedish source, for the story itself acknowledges that it's something that had to be retained for 736 years in secret with no written notes: only select information could be remembered and had to be put into a coherent systematic form. Hence it could not retain all the minor details, but only an oral core with the details extrapolated out of it. If Oera Linda book records hard facts as happened back in the day, then they must be given a precedence.

Edited August 31, 2016 by FromFinland

[Ell]

On 3-7-2016 at 2:11 AM, FromFinland said:

Finnish weekly newspaper Turun Viikko-Sanomat, issues 10–11, 20, my translation, 1819:

 

at the time when a lot of peoples in northern Europe and Asia lived in the mountain caves and earth pits, such people being called occasionally turilas, lived also the famous honoured Ukko or the Ukko at the mountain created by God, of which Ukko is mentioned in the poem as Lord of North and eternal Strength-Turilas.

 

Can the name Ukko possibly be etymologically related to the word pukki?