Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 3]

[Ell]

On 3-7-2016 at 3:13 PM, FromFinland said:

Incas however were only one of the various Indian nations and situated at the back side of the American continent (map), when viewed from the Europe: wouldn't one think that the theoretical Frisians explorers would have entered the North America instead, like their Icelandic cousins later? Unless they took a land journey, they would likely went to the Incan lands by the way of the southern Golfstream (see here) and the Isthmus of Panama (see here).

Our geography does not concur with OLB geography. Do not try to locate ancient geography on our modern day maps.

[FromFinland]

As an addendum to previous post, on the subject of Black Adel being elected as king:

• "When Uudenmaa was destroyed, the Swedish king Anund Jakob lost his life in the hurlyburly – he passed away already 25.7.1050. Emund son of Olav Lapking [Olof Skötkonung] became the next king. In the year 1061 Emund [Emund the Old] was affected by such depression that he went with his crown prince to the suicide rock. In this way the Ynglinga-family born of Sven 9012 years ago passed away. Since then the headmen of the earl families chose amongst themselves the king with the acceptance of the pope from Rome. In the year 1061 the Danish Pol-family was divided into three branches, which were Brandenburg, Gottorp and Oldenburg. The later arctical kings are descendants of these three branches."  Source: Ior Bock 1996, Bockin perheen saaga, page 81.
• "King Olaf the Swede had a son called Önund who succeeded him. He died in his bed. In his day fell King Olaf the Saint at Stiklestad. Olaf the Swede had another son called Eymund, who came to the throne after his brother. In his day the Swedes neglected the Christian religion, but he was King for only a short time. There was a great man of noble family in Sweden called Steinkel. His mother's name was Astrith, the daughter of Njal the son of Fin the Squinter, from Halogaland; and his father was Rögnvald the Old. Steinkel was an Earl in Sweden at first, and then after the death of Eymund, the Swedes elected him their King. Then the throne passed out of the line of the ancient kings of Sweden. Steinkel was a mighty prince. He married the daughter of King Eymund. He died in his bed in Sweden about the time that King Harold fell in England." Source: The Saga of Hervör and Heithrek, chapter 16. 

3 hours ago, Ell said:

Can the name Ukko possibly be etymologically related to the word pukki?

Lingvistically not, but thematically yes. It's a bit complicated:

• according to the Finland Swedish Väinämöinen's mythology, the title of young prince of the royal Æsir family was Pukki Lemminkäinen in Finnish or Sol Bocken Baldär in Finland Swedish. There is the following a saying in the story: "Frei fick Odens visdom, som gjorde Bocken till en bra man, en god man som skapade goda mänskior, fylgior, valkyrior". The straw buck was understood as symbol of sun, with the Finnish Father Christmas joulupukki, or Hjul-Odens Bock in Finland Swedish, representing the Lemminkäinen. When twelth son turned 27, Lemminkäinen would be re-titled Ukko Väinämöinen, meaning Old Man Väinämöinen. Sources: Ior Bock 1996, Bockin perheen saaga, pages 24–25, 78–79; Leo Nygren 2005, Lemminkäisen ja Suomettaren häät Valhallassa, page 98.
• according to the same source at the island of Oden and just above the Valhalla was a golden buck statue and Ukko Väinämöinen's sitting place directly above it. In 1248–1250 one of these more than one golden buck statues was hidden at the Kajaani castle after surrendering to the Swedish Christians.  Two similar statues were buried underground in grove at Snappertuna. The story of hidden golden animal statue at Snappertuna is known form other sources as well, but the connection to Ukko or Æsir kings is not. Over the years there have been unlicensed amateur excavations at all of these places, with nothing found so far. Sources: Ior Bock 1996, Bockin perheen saaga, pages 35, 81–82, 99.
• in Finnish folklore a 12th century English missionary bishop Henrik is slaughtered with an axe by a Finn called Lalli together with his friends. This is seen largely as an act of national resistance by Finns still today, with Lalli being chosen once 14th greatest Finn of all times. As can be seen here, the Christians have the Lalli represented by a goat in the coat of arms. Folklore from 1748 puts Lalli as a prestigious local man and owner of a manor, with his surviving wife being the richest person of the locality. If this is and the Finland Swedish source are valid, it would possibly make him an earl directly beneath an Æsir governor or petty king in rank. Sources: Sources: Ior Bock 1996, Bockin perheen saaga, page 27; Satakuntaliitto 2011, Piispa Henrik ja Lalli, page 18.
• 17th century Swedish academian Johannes Messenius wrote while being a prison in Kajaani castle a book Rimkrönika om Finland och dess inbyggare, where he tells of the year 1313: "I have read of one letter, that worn out of Swedish rule, the Finns chose as their king, a man called Buggo, who belonged to their old princely family. They though they had a right to it. However king Birger easily put down the rebellion. With his supporters Buggo was killed and Finns weren't releaved of their agony." While Buggo might be corruption of Finnish puukko (knife) or puu-ukko (wooden man), it's not difficult to see a possible connection to the Bock family, especially as Buggo was of former royal dynasty and bucca refers to male goat. To my knowledge the letter alluded by Messenius has not survived, so this is the only source on this enigmatic rebel. Source: Johannes Messenius, Suomen Riimikronikka, 1997 reprint, pages 50–51.

Edited August 31, 2016 by FromFinland

[FromFinland]

Please compare:

"Wr-alda, who alone is eternal [1] and good, made the beginning. Then commenced time. Time wrought all things, even the earth. The earth bore grass, herbs, and trees, all useful and all noxious animals. All that is good and useful she brought forth by day, and all that is bad and injurious by night. ... 

"You know, or you do not know, how many titles Wr-alda has; but you all know that he is named universal provider, because that everything comes and proceeds from him for the sustenance of his creatures. It is true that Irtha is named sometimes the feeder of all, because she brings forth all the fruits and grains on which men and beasts are fed; but she would not bear any fruit or grain unless Wr-alda gave her the power [2].

Women who nourish their children at their breasts are called nurses, but if Wr-alda did not give them milk the children would find no advantage; so that, in short, Wr-alda really is the nourisher. That Irtha should be called the universal nourisher[3], and that a mother should be called a feeder, one can understand, figuratively speaking" – Oera Linda book, chapter 4 & letter of Rika the Oudmaagd. 

[1] "Oden has always been and will always be. Oden is the sun and sun controls the life. When a seed grown on earth, the sun gives the sprout a power to bud and grow. When the plant's leaf has done it's purpose, it falls down on earth and decays. Soil comes from the sun. All green things and the soil has become of the sun's power. [2] In this way sun controls the life and is the most important element in all mythologies. ...

[3] "G – [ge:] grund. /ge/ is ekens grund, the soil of an oaktree or it's foundation. /ge/ is the same as /ji/ giva or to give, so /ge/ is also givande grund, the giving soil. ...

According to mythology Oden is solen, or the sun. Oden is also eternal, like semen. Father sun has given humans an eternal life on mother earth. " – Ior Bock 1996, Bockin perheen saaga, pages 18, 22–23, 98. 

Edited August 31, 2016 by FromFinland

[Ell]

5 hours ago, FromFinland said:

While Buggo might be corruption of Finnish puukko (knife) or puu-ukko(wooden man), it's not difficult to see a possible connection to the Bock family, especially as Buggo was of former royal dynasty and bucca refers to male goat

Quite. I can use puu-ukko; to me it is obviously etymologically related to pukki. I will make mention of it in my book about Black Pete. The wooden man is Death.

[FromFinland]

Both the Dutch Oera Linda book and Finnish oral Väinämöinen's mythology purport to be 13th century recollections of older heritage, the Dutch from 1256 and the Finnish from 1248. With Oera Linda book we have a concrete object to be analysed visually and chemically, with no attached lore other than what can be learned from the book's contents itself and the fact it refers to ancestors of the Over de Lindens as Oera Linda or Ovira Linda. Finnish Väinämöinen's mythology is only an oral story, with the peculiar wooden staff and at least once seen family tree chart stretching back to 1250 dating to later historical times. No corresponding physical evidence of artifacts have been found so far at Gumbostrand, Snappertuna or Kajaani, though the both the Gumbostrand cave and the nearby rock formation with its peculiar man-made stone stairs, crisscross patterns and possible megalithic architecture do seem to correlate with the story. Whereas Oera Linda book is an object to study in itself with four basic elements of 1. narrative, 2. social system doctrine, 3. at least two writing systems and 4. prophecies; Väinämöinen's mythology consists of a core 1. three writings systems, of which one is detailed and which supports the 2. social system doctrine, the 3. narrative and 4. prophecies. Thus we already note that they both differ somewhat from average Nordic sagas by relating not only narrative but the social meaning and the language behind them: they are both system keys in itself. As will be shown below, both sources share likely one and the same writing system.

Oera Linda book's writing system is as follows, chapters 20, 49 and 50:

"What appears at the top is the signs of the [1]Juul—that is, the first symbol of Wr-alda, also of the origin or beginning from which Time is derived; this is the Kroder, which must always go round with the Juul. According to this model Frya formed the [2a] set hand which she used to write her Tex. When Fasta was Eeremoeder she made a [2b] running hand out of it. The Witkoning—that is, the Sea-king Godfried the Old—made separate numbers for the set hand and for the runic hand. It is therefore not too much that [3] we celebrate it once a year. We may be eternally thankful to Wr-alda that he allowed his spirit to exercise such an influence over our forefathers.
In her time Finda also invented a mode of writing, but that was so high-flown and full of flourishes that her descendants have soon lost the meaning of it.
Afterwards they learned our writing—that is, the Finns, the Thyriers, and the Krekalanders—but they did not know that it was taken from the Juul, and [4] must therefore always be written [5] round like the sun. Furthermore, they wished that their writing should be illegible by other people, because they always had matters to conceal. In doing this they acted very unwisely, because their children could only with great difficulty read the writings of their predecessors, whereas our most ancient writings are as easy to read as those that were written yesterday.
Here is a specimen of the set hand and of the running hand, as well as of the figures, in both."

"When Wr-alda gave children to the mothers of mankind, [6] he gave one language to every tongue and to all lips. This gift Wr-alda had bestowed upon men in order that by its means they might make known to each other what must be avoided and what must be followed to find salvation, and to hold salvation to all eternity. Wr-alda is wise and good, and all-foreseeing. As he knew that happiness and holiness would flee from the earth when wickedness could overcome virtue, he has attached to the language an equitable property. This property consists in this, that [7] men can neither lie nor use deceitful words without stammering or blushing, by which means the innately bad are easily known.
[8] As thus our language opens the way to happiness and blessedness, and thus helps to guard against evil inclinations, it is [9] rightly named the language of the gods, and all those by whom it is held in honour derive honour from it. But what has happened? As soon as among our half brothers and sisters deceivers arose, who gave themselves out as servants of the good, it soon became otherwise. The deceitful priests and the malignant princes, who always clung together, wished to live according to their own inclinations, without regard to the laws of right. In their wickedness they went so far as to [10] invent other languages, so that they might speak secretly in anybody’s presence of their wicked and unworthy affairs without betraying themselves by stammering, and without showing a blush upon their countenances. But what has that produced? Just as the seed of good herbs which has been sown by good men in the open day springs up from the ground, so time brings to light the evil seed which has been sown by wicked men in secret and in darkness."

[11] "If you wish that you alone should inherit the earth, you must never allow any language but God’s language to pass your lips, and take care that your own language remains free from outlandish sounds. If you wish that some of Lyda’s children and some of Finda’s children remain, you must do the same. The language of the East Schoonlanders has been perverted by the vile Magyars, and the language of the followers of Kaltana has been spoiled by the dirty Gauls. Now, we have been weak enough to admit among us the returned followers of Hellenia, but I anxiously fear that they will reward our weakness by debasing our pure language.
Many things have happened to us, but among all the citadels that have been disturbed and destroyed in the bad time, Irtha has preserved Fryasburgt uninjured; and I may remark that Frya’s or God’s language has always remained here untainted.
Here in Texland, therefore, schools should be established; and from all the states that have kept to the old customs the young people should be sent here, and afterwards those whose education is complete can help those who remain at home. If foreigners come to buy ironwares from you, and want to talk and bargain, they must come back to God’s language. If they learn God’s language, then the words, “to be free” and “to have justice,” will come to them, and glimmer and glitter in their [12] brains to a perfect light, and that flame will destroy all bad princes and hypocritical dirty priests."

Analysis I - comparison  

[1] For Juul comparison, compare to Väinämöinen's mythology pages and 78: 

"Already in the paradise age one feasted the Yuletide, jultid."

"Yule was the celebration of the sun and to it belonged Yule morning, Yule day and Yule evening, that is wheel-morning, wheel-day and wheel-evening. Wheel meant the sun and Lemminkäinen represented the fertilizing sun just like his elders, Ukko and Akka. They were Hjul-Odens Gubbe, Hjul-Odens Gumma and Hjul-Odens Bock and of them come names joulu-ukko, jouluakka and joulupukki."

In 1789 Kristfrid Ganander had also this to tell of the Finnish Yule, Mythologia Fennica, on word Joulu:

"Yule

is the holiday, which Finns in old times and still regard as the major, and for which good foods and drinks are especially made for, which are consumed more in quantity than in other times ...
”Bishop Jesper Svedberg in his Schibboleth and Ol. v. Dalin in his Sw. Rik. Historia trace Christmas from the word Jul, rota, which was in the runestaff in this day's place to mark return of the Sun to the North; or from words Jola, Joldra which referred to those plays and feasts with eating of the Oden's boar, which were held to honour Oden and so that a good growth in the beginning next year.

It is certain and totally undisputed that our land's oldest inhabitants called Joter celebrated Christmas quite convivially long before Christ in ancient heathen times, at the same exact time in December as we nowadays, albeit for other reasons."

[2a] For set hand comparison, compare to Väinämöinen's mythology, page 17:

”The sounds form an alphabet, that has been in use in whole North. The script corresponding to the alphabet is called staffscript, stavskrift. It's letter are A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, X, Y, Z, Å, Ä and Ö. Letters are thought to consist of circles, semicircles, one third circles and staffs, which are often divided by one third staffs. For example letter B consist of staff and two semicircles. The semicircles aren't perfect however, as they have one third staff between them so as to have B-letter of right form. Ö is circle with two commas, Ä is A with two commas above and Å is A with the moon above.
”This writing system is also called /ro:t/-script. Staffscript as such is masculine. ”

[2b]  For running hand comparison, compare to Väinämöinen's mythology, pages 17 and 68:

"If one writes without raising the pen from the paper, the script becomes winding, slinga, which is feminine."

"There exists also another writing style, slinga, in which one doesn't raise the pen from the paper. This longhand script is feminine by its nature. Longhand script doesn't give birth to same kind of associations as staffscript because it cannot be considered in the forms of staffs and circles."

[3] See note 1 above.

[4] As for the round form, compare to Väinämöinen's mythology page 68:

"In addition to the spoken language arrived the staffscript, which consisted of staffs and circles. Staff and circle could be divided in parts, and of these parts were built the alphabet marks or letters, tecken. Letters the staffscript are today used in everywhere, but they are founded upon the letter's of the Uudenmaa.

Staffscript is by its nature masculine writing style, which is based on the brain's thought of what the letter seems like: for example in letter A are two staffs, inbetween of which is part of staff; in
letter B is staff, added with three short staff parts and two parts of a circle; and C is like semicircle. All alphabet letters can thus be thought as parts of staffs and circles."

[5] "Round like the sun" sounds like the Uuden and Oden of the Finns, Väinämöinen's mythology pages 12, 20, 68 and 79:

"During the paradise time here was the city of Uuden, Odens stad."

"O – [o:] Oden /o:den/, Uden. Uuden is the sun and circle O.

"Uuden meant in heathen times a sun and sun is always a ring"

[6] While Oera Linda book doesn't make case for Babel tower situation, it's noteworthy that Väinämöinen's mythology does with Babel replaced by Rabel tower and wrath of god replaced by ice age.

[7] That one can hear when language or intent is foul from the stammering, compare to the error detection and correction method as presented in Väinämöinen's mythology, page 13:

"It's said that you hand the ring forward. When one understands this ring, you can think things with it. One can also put words in the ring, i ringen. If the word enters the ring without cracking, it can be an old word. But if the word cracks at the middle, it's constructed erroneusly. For example word rabi. It's not rabbi, for /rabbi/ i ringen doesn't go to the ring, but one needs to spell it /ra:bi/ i ringen."

As this ring is the round sun, see again the point 5 above.

[8] Compare the positive vibe of the language to Väinämöinen's mythology, pages 8–9 and 13:

"Bock family has meant to create stories by which people became good peoples, goda mänskior, it was said. It was the original meaning of the stories."

"There are many sagas and they contain the philosophy of Uden's time."

"This is not religion, even though one speaks of Uden's faith. Even if some people speak of there existing some god families, we have always said that our forefathers were just good people, "goda mänskior"" 

[9] As an Adamic language, Väinämöinen's mythology calls the Æsir language Root language, or Toor language backwards, in referring to Tor. 

[10] That "deceitful priests and the malignant princes" purposefully invent new languages, compare to Väinämöinen's mythology, pages 57–58, 69: 

"During the ice age Vanir in China, India, Africa and elsewhere in south survived. ... At the south's ten tropical king systems was born thence ten tropical races of humans. In each kingsystem the language was also renewed, but the languages of the Æsir and Vanir survived the best in Atlantis."

"When the age of Atlantis arrived and ten tropical races were born, the stemfathers of these races outside the Uudenmaa wanted their own central lands, ring lands and own root languges, which were different from the ring land languages as per the model of Uudenmaa – in this way the central land got higher rank and status. Languages of the ten tropical races are based on the Vanir language, but they contain also a lot of Root language in them."

[11] Ior Bock on the purity of the language, pages 10 and 70: 

"The sound system of the alphabet or associtations of the alfabeten are associtations of the Root language. Thats why one must always present alfabet with clear sounds of the Root-language. Same alfabet is contained in everones' mother language who is born at Uudenmaa. Of course this is hard to comprehend and it takes time before one can immerse oneself in to the alphabet's sound system. But the associations hold water tight: they survive in the form they always have been. Everyone can learn them and use them."

"The language of Sven's descendants was based on the Root language of the Uudenmaa. Modern Swedes speak it in singing voice to the ears of the Vanir, so in Finnish it's called ruutsing language, or Ruotsi language. The Swedish language is in turn the foundation of Norwegian language and these languages differ from each other to some degree. When descendants of Sven moved to the islands of Norway, the language changed again substantially. One notices it from the American English spoken today, as language changed further when people moved from the England to America."

[12] Like here, Oera Linda book occasionally mentions brains: "impress it on the brains", "by the help of their brains", "brains", "glitter in their brains". This is a literary clue in itself, as it's not really usual in Nordic source material, but Väinämöinen's mythology too often mentions brains: "so blood circulates, goes to brains and gives energy to the brains. Men's brains receive nourishment from the semen, whereas women's brains are nourished by vaginal fluids", "It's said that Lemminkäinen had then two horns in his brains", "Sounds of the Root language tell that something can be done gladly, gärna /jä:rna/ and in paradise time one offered to the brains of Ukko, or hjärnä /jä:rna/" etc.  

Analysis II - visual

Please have a look at the attached illustration. It shows on the left a detail from the page 48 of the Oera Linda book and on the right an illustration from Positive Foundation booklet from 1992. The latter's importance is that it was published in Ior's lifetime by his friends and it was reprinted in Ior's friend Petri Walli's Kingston Wall 1994 Trilogy cd record's booklet as an art piece. So we can be fairly sure it was correct in regards to the subject matter even if it wasn't an illustration drawn by Ior himself. One of the great oddities is why on earth does the alphabet in Väinämöinen's mythology begin with letter i and not A. The answer comes from comparison to Oera Linda book illustration: it is a start-stop marker, like modern dot (.) or Viking rune stone marking (:). And now we know why it's not just a dot, but a dot on top of an i: it's a polestar on top of an axis, as can be seen in the Oera Linda illustration and explained here by one former friend of Ior Bock: video 1 and video 2. 

Conclusions

• The two sources are entwined inseparately when it comes to the Æsir writing system: they describe and complement each other noticeably well: Oera Linda book includes Oden the sun in it's core system, as it does use the peculiar i start-stop sign as well. Just as likewise, letters of Uudenmaa are nothing but a Finnish variant of the same Jol script.
• It's clear that the Finnish and Frisian sources are different localised reflections of one and the same original literary language system, whether genuinely old in its origins or not.
• Due to the late 1980s date of Väinämöinen's mythology becoming public knowledge and the fact Ior Bock knew at least one Dutch person already in the 1970s, more research is needed on the possibility of Ior, or his Boxström predecessors, lifting material out of the Oera Linda book. 
• Even if Finnish material was lifted out of the Dutch one, how to explain the peculiar similarity between Väinämöinen's mythology and Irminsaga – the Central European migrant story – of or the existence of Gumbostrand cave tunnel complete with underground crisscross wall inscription and megalithic stone blocks, as confirmed by video evidence and testimonies of the construction workers with experience in bedrock drilling?
• Thus matters escalate rather fast: if we can't explain away the underground element like the Gumbostrand cave and the German connection and come to think that they are remnants of once real history, what do we make of the fact that Väinämöinen's mythology writing system corresponds to the Oera Linda book one, not to mention the many other intriguing similarities? Woudn't it point to the direction of Oera Linda book being a genuine 13th century source?
• One must be careful and resist the temptation to wholeheartedly jump in the bandwagon that if something is true, then all the rest must be true also. Some parts of the Oera Linda book and the Väinämöinen's mythology sound like auditory group hallucinations, neurochemical DMT archetypes as seen in dreams or popular legends. To the first category belongs the Frya's call form her watch-star, to the second the decription of abnormally large underground Lemminkäinen's temple stocked with gold and finally to the last the stories of golden paradise time when mankind was one with gods.
• Remember, if one want's to explain away the Oera Linda book writing system, they have to explain away also the one in Väinämöinen's mythology as well.

For future

• Study the metadata: with whom Ior Bock hanged with in the 1970–1980s and was he known to take interest at the Dutch history or the Oera Linda book; was the story of Kanne family publicly available to those interested from old genealogy books; what public sources were available to Over de Lindens in 1860s, Karl Wiligut in 1930s and Ior Bock in the 1980s?
• Continue excavation work at Gumbostrand, with a proper support from geologist or archeologist who understands both megaliths and manmade looking natural formations. Moreover consider the largely ignored expert opinions of the construction workers (1, 2) present at Gumbostrand excavations, as seen in Pekka Lehto's publicly broadcast documentary film Temppeli from 1991. 
• Press for more information about Oera Linda book examinations: what the results are and when will the next visual and chemical study be done complete with proper baseline source material? 
• Raise awareness: somebody else might notice a pattern or reach a conclusion not yet known to us. 

Edited August 31, 2016 by FromFinland
Hail Wotan!

[Ell]

17 hours ago, FromFinland said:

When twelth son turned 27, Lemminkäinen would be re-titled Ukko Väinämöinen, meaning Old Man Väinämöinen.

My interpretation: On the 27th day of December, the (New) Year Lemminkäinen (Black Pete) would be re-titled Ukko Väinämöinen, meaning the Old Year Väinämöinen (Santaclaus).

[Ell]

18 hours ago, FromFinland said:

• 17th century Swedish academian Johannes Messenius wrote while being a prison in Kajaani castle a book Rimkrönika om Finland och dess inbyggare, where he tells of the year 1313: "I have read of one letter, that worn out of Swedish rule, the Finns chose as their king, a man called Buggo, who belonged to their old princely family. They though they had a right to it. However king Birger easily put down the rebellion. With his supporters Buggo was killed and Finns weren't releaved of their agony."

This might refer to the Underworld when Hercules took away Cerberus in chains. It is the first time I have heard Cerberus called Buggo. It later might have become a generic title for the ruler of the Underworld.

[Ell]

12 hours ago, FromFinland said:

This property consists in this, that [7] men can neither lie nor use deceitful words without stammering or blushing, by which means the innately bad are easily known.
[8] As thus our language opens the way to happiness and blessedness, and thus helps to guard against evil inclinations, it is [9] rightly named the language of the gods, and all those by whom it is held in honour derive honour from it. But what has happened? As soon as among our half brothers and sisters deceivers arose, who gave themselves out as servants of the good, it soon became otherwise. The deceitful priests and the malignant princes, who always clung together, wished to live according to their own inclinations, without regard to the laws of right. In their wickedness they went so far as to [10]invent other languages, so that they might speak secretly in anybody’s presence of their wicked and unworthy affairs without betraying themselves by stammering, and without showing a blush upon their countenances.

Frya and her children had a one trait psychology: wisdom, of which a conscience is a part. Lyda and Finda and their children also had one trait psychologies, but those two different psychologies by definition were not wisdom and therefore they lacked a conscience: consequently they could lie without blushing and stammering.

[Ell]

12 hours ago, FromFinland said:

Väinämöinen's mythology, page 13:

"It's said that you hand the ring forward. When one understands this ring, you can think things with it. One can also put words in the ring, i ringen. If the word enters the ring without cracking, it can be an old word. But if the word cracks at the middle, it's constructed erroneusly. For example word rabi. It's not rabbi, for /rabbi/ i ringen doesn't go to the ring, but one needs to spell it /ra:bi/ i ringen."

I do not comprehend this. Is it about syllables?

[FromFinland]

7 hours ago, Ell said:

I do not comprehend this. Is it about syllables?

Both about the syllables and the consonants. So in case of the word given, rabi-i-ringen flows out naturally when spoken. In addition to the very closely related Finland Swedish and Swedish, I guess the method is also applicable to Danish, Norwegian, Icelandic, Estonian Swedish, Ukrainian Swedish and old Norse. German, Dutch and English may perhaps be too far from the Scandinavian urheimat for the i ringen to work with their vocabulary. The i ringen spelling checking system may be of limited use with it Finnish and even that what works may be limited to archaic vocabulary shared with Finland Swedish. Unfortunately I don't think we have an another example of the system in work by the storyteller, nor do I recall video material with an example of it in it.

Now that I come to think of it, perhaps this i ringen method had as well a literary purpose in addition to the given oral one? Typically the Väinämöinen's mythology has by far the most detailed system doctrine, but in this case it seems to my mind that Ior and the Boxström's were truly trying to expound orally the writing system presented in the Oera Linda book. To start an oral alphabet with a letter i and to make fuss about the sounds being made out of both circles and staffs is unecessary for spoken language, but suddenly makes perfect sense if viewed at the light of the Oera Linda writing system. Moreover, the connection is bidirectional: a pole complete with a polestar above it and Oden the sun put a meaning to the the curious Oera Linda remark about writing like sun and explain why the circle begins at 12 o'clock with a dot at top of the central pole.

If I would be tasked with reconstructing in visual form the Bockian Æsir writing system, I would look no further than the one in the Oera Linda book. Hence the studies regarding the paper and ink of that peculiar book are of paramount importance for us Finns, too. Let's consider the different scenarios regarding the authenticity:

unconnected fake - unconnected fake: both Over de Lindens and Boxströms faked the stories without knowing of each other. Impossibley due to numerous parallels not just in details but also in rhetoric, as I have shown in this thread. Can be falsified by researching the Oera Linda book paper and archeological excavations in Finland.

fake-fake: Over de Lindens faked the Oera Linda book and Boxströms lifted material out of it. Unlikely, but theoretically still possible. One would need to explain: a. the unknown literary genius of Over de Lindens and Boxströms, b. the Central European migrant story connecting the Boxströms to Wiliguts and c. Boxströms' pre-knowledge of Gumbostrand underground cavern sealed with man-made stone blocks that were not visible above ground. Can be falsified by researching the Oera Linda book paper and archeological excavations in Finland.

fake-real: Over de Lindens faked the Oera Linda book, Boxströms were for real. Theoretically possible, but the close parallels would make it a once in a million kind of coincidence and thus rather unlikely. Can be falsified by researching the Oera Linda book paper. Thorough archeological excavations in Finland with absolutely negative outcome could point at fake origins, they would not in itself explain away the already found pecularities of the Gumbostrand site.

real-fake: Over de Lindens were for real, Boxström weren't.  One would need to explain: a. the unknown literary genius of Boxströms, b. the Central European migrant story connecting the Boxströms to Wiliguts and c. Boxströms' pre-knowledge of Gumbostrand underground cavern sealed with man-made stone blocks that were not visible above ground. Can not be easily falsified by researching the Oera Linda book paper, as it could be a post-1256 copy. Can be falsified with archeological excavations in Finland.

real-real: both Oera Linda book and Boxströms were for real. Most unproblematic option and would explain a lot of the odd coincidences. Does not still necessarily mean the contents of the stories are absolute truth regarding the historical time periods dealt with. Can not be falsified by researching the Oera Linda book paper, as it could be a post-1256 copy. Thorough and absolute archeological excavations in Finland with negative outcome could point at fake origins, but they would not in itself explain away the already found pecularities of the Gumbostrand site.

As can be seen from the scenarios above, all of this could researched by a paper research in Holland and by a archeological excavations in Finland. That's why we Finns are so fed up with the current stagnant cituation with the archeological excavations: Snappertuna is nature conservation area and thus off limits, Gumbostrand shows seriously good signs both above and underground but is ignored by academia with no funding available and finally Kajaani castle was not excavated to the relevant depth in the last official study. I'm sure you Dutch feel the same about the stalling situation regarding the Oera Linda book.

[Ell]

On 31-8-2016 at 9:55 PM, FromFinland said:

Moreover, the connection is bidirectional: a pole complete with a polestar above it and Oden the sun put a meaning to the the curious Oera Lindaremark about writing like sun and explain why the circle begins at 12 o'clock with a dot at top of the central pole.

The pole also might symbolize the space elevator, with the dot symbolizing the spacehabitat of the Underworld. An impossible combination, as both occupied positions on diametrically opposite sides of the Earth. Or the space elevator with Heaven on top of it - but those ought not to be separate.

[Passing Time]

On 03/07/2016 at 2:13 PM, FromFinland said:

The plot keeps thickening:

 

We go a full circle and we have here again the golden sun or Oden the sun, by way of the ring or disk. Incas however were only one of the various Indian nations and situated at the back side of the American continent (map), when viewed from the Europe: wouldn't one think that the theoretical Frisians explorers would have entered the North America instead, like their Icelandic cousins later? Unless they took a land journey, they would likely went to the Incan lands by the way of the southern Golfstream (see here) and the Isthmus of Panama (see here).

In Bock Saga as told by Jim Chesnar , after the ice , the gulfstream could not pass the ice , i presume as it was warm it was on top of the ocean , so it possibly was returned back via a different route , so we cannot now know where it may have led them , to Panama , and then the back of South America has to be a possibility.

[Passing Time]

On 03/07/2016 at 6:01 PM, Ell said:

Don't be fooled by geography. Even though the names are identical, the geography of anything before 400 A.D. does not apply to the geography as we know it.

 

What makes you say that Ell , do you have any other instances...?

reading Iman Wilkins , he thinks Homers Trojan wars were in Britain  , and Troy was in Cambridge , "where Troy once stood" and Mycenai was Gaul . The Caucasian Mountains are mentioned By Arian on Alexander the Greats wars to be in India. The Finnish mention by 'FromFinland' of America being originally called India/Intia

[Passing Time]

On 31/08/2016 at 2:28 PM, FromFinland said:

• in Finnish folklore a 12th century English missionary bishop Henrik is slaughtered with an axe by a Finn called Lalli together with his friends. This is seen largely as an act of national resistance by Finns still today, with Lalli being chosen once 14th greatest Finn of all times. As can be seen here, the Christians have the Lalli represented by a goat in the coat of arms. Folklore from 1748 puts Lalli as a prestigious local man and owner of a manor, with his surviving wife being the richest person of the locality. If this is and the Finland Swedish source are valid, it would possibly make him an earl directly beneath an Æsir governor or petty king in rank. Sources: Sources: Ior Bock 1996, Bockin perheen saaga, page 27; Satakuntaliitto 2011, Piispa Henrik ja Lalli, page 18.
•  

Just a possible coincidence:-

Lalli Killed Biscop Henrik at KoylionJarvi (Jarvi meaning Lake ) in 1156............Richard 1 of England , previously King of Normandy , and a Son of of Henry ll , brother also of Henry the young king .was nicknamed Coerlion , he was born in 1157. the dates are so close , and similarity of Koylion and Coer(de)Lion ........dates dont match exactly but wondered if there may be some co-relation here.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Passing Time

[FromFinland]

On 9/3/2016 at 1:59 PM, Passing Time said:

In Bock Saga as told by Jim Chesnar , after the ice , the gulfstream could not pass the ice , i presume as it was warm it was on top of the ocean , so it possibly was returned back via a different route , so we cannot now know where it may have led them , to Panama , and then the back of South America has to be a possibility.

In my understanding, as per the 1996 book, in the story at least a portion of the gulfstream ended under the ice onto the Baltic sea and thus kept it alive thermally (page 56). Eventually the gulfstream would heat and melt the ice at the Norwegian coast and at Artic Ocean, causing the already warming ice masses to slide over the Baltic area. Only survivors were those that had wisdom to hide themselves in the underground caverns of Gotland island for the duration of three months. As the majority of Nordics perished in that event, according to this saga there were only 30 Nordic white people alive on this planet 8016 B.C, making all modern European whites living today their descendants (page 63).

I'm not personally sure how the 13th century Æsir - if this really is their story - came up with this legend. Some parts of it read a bit like Scandinavian mythology and some parts are also known from Greek or Mediterranean sources. However, as the bedrock everywhere in Finland was sanded smooth by the ice age, with most lakes being of the same direction as the receding ice masses, they could have just looked at the nature and extropolated this out of what they saw. In this story, the gulfstream was implicilty already back to usual by the end of the ice age, so it coudn't be used as an explanation for the Oera Linda Inka story as such.

On 9/3/2016 at 3:53 PM, Passing Time said:

Just a possible coincidence:-

Lalli Killed Biscop Henrik at KoylionJarvi (Jarvi meaning Lake ) in 1156............Richard 1 of England , previously King of Normandy , and a Son of of Henry ll , brother also of Henry the young king .was nicknamed Coerlion , he was born in 1157. the dates are so close , and similarity of Koylion and Coer(de)Lion ........dates dont match exactly but wondered if there may be some co-relation here.

I'm not sure I get what you're looking for with this? Do you mean in the Fomenko sense, that this would be a historical anomaly? Mr. Fomenko usually has whole dynasties with the ages and the patterns matching - I don't think he would see much meaning in this lone example, and neither do I. While one might see a possible small amount of Finnish heritage for the English by the way of the Anglo-Saxon dynasties and by the Normans, I don't think Richard I of England has much of a connection to the local Finnish story given above.

[FromFinland]

As we research and meta-research the Oera Linda manuscript, be sure to check how one Maya Codex thought to be a late forgery turned out to be not only a genuine one, but also the oldest surviving such a record: Grolier Codex. This is currently at news here in Finland.

- - - - - 

I have now read Yrjö von Grönhagen's book Himmlerin salaseura from 1948 and can report that it doesn't explicitly mention the Oera Linda material. The book contains couple of humorous elements, such as the author lecturing Himmler on the bad treatment of the German Jews without knowing who he is talking to and Karl Maria Wiligut playing pranks such as hiding French girlie magazines under authors bed. Hitler Jugend youth camps are reported to be energitic with better discipline than in the Finnish army at that time. Grönhagen's French friends warn him that everything is turning to worse in 1930s Germany and that he would as a foreigner be sent into a concentration camp upon entering Germany, yet the exact opposite happened: Grönhagen received a cold treatment from most French and Belgian officials, while the German border guards were relaxed and friendly to him.  

Grönhagen reports that in the 1930s 1940s Germany there was a strong anti-Nazi undercurrent within the society, that manifested in schism between old school traditionalists and new school national socialists in schools, universities, military etc. This meant that whereas Himmler was interested in all kinds of exotic viewpoints and was determined to record all such things, many German academic still working as a part of the system did everything they could to derail all of that, so as to keep the German academic scene in pre-1933 spirtitual state. This meant that alternative views on old Germans and studies on such matters were being sabotaged by people doing exactly such a work within the system.

Grönhagen mentions by name a lot of his friends, contacts and Finnish acquaintance sand none of them point to the direction of the Finnish Boxströms or to Finnish SS volunteers. This close the possibility that Finnish Boxström could somehow gotten clue of the Kanne story and Irminsaga by the way of the Grönhagen directly. Even though his book was published here at Helsinki in 1948,  the book mentions the Wiligut story in a very vague and simplistic manner. That means the Boxström would have needed to look out for other additional sources on Irminsaga, if one likes to pursue the loan hypothesis.

Grönhagen's book confirms several elements known from Moynihan's 2001 book The Secret King, such as: photo of Himmler's 1935 signature in author's travel diary matches style wise the 1935 Himmler signature on Wiligut paper and that Wiligut had a habit of collecting old stones from forests and cleaning them to see if they contained old marking, as reported also by Gabriele Winkler-Dechend. Grönhagen thinks Wiligut to be a sort of a loonie and as per the book the author himself seems to have been a mainstreamer with little knowledge of such things as ancient Germans and mythology, which he openly admits. He doesn't seem to have been aware of the Kanne snake ring story, for example. 

Interestingly one 92 years old witch called Miron-Aku befriended by Grönhagen as a part of doing the Ahnenerbe work confirms what the Väinämöinen's mythology of allegedly Æsiric origins says too: that piru – Finnish for "an imp" or "a devil" – was a good force contrary to what the Christian priests teached of it. In Väinämöinen's mythology the core Æsir family is called Piru family (Piru-ätt, with the Swedish ätt meaning a family as in Ynglingaätten), with the etymology given as "ring of peace" and "ring of Oden" (Bock 1996, pages 25 and 79). In general this is supported to some degree by other sources, like what we know of similar Perun and old Saxon baptismal vow. Wiligut made the following remark about this matter to the young Grönhagen:

"– You should have stayed with the Miron-Aku for couple of years", he said after hearing my story. – You would have learned a lot from her, much more than from any university, for she seems to be a genuine sage, because she tells the devil to be good and of help to her." (p. 119, my translation)

As per the book, Wiligut seems to have been vaguely aware of the Finnish traditions before meeting the Grönhagen, like knowing of one Finnish seer by her name. Wiligut didn't seem to have known personally any other Finns than Grönhagen: this suggests again that no direct Wiligut-Boxström connection existed. I'll end here with a short text what Heinrich Himmler wrote on Grönhagen's travel diary on 13.10.1935: 

"Germans and Finns must never forget that they have mutual ancestors."

Edited September 9, 2016 by FromFinland
Added the 1935 quote.

[Ell]

On 9-9-2016 at 10:40 PM, FromFinland said:

one 92 years old witch called Miron-Aku befriended by Grönhagen as a part of doing the Ahnenerbe work confirms what the Väinämöinen's mythology of allegedly Æsiric origins says too: that piru – Finnish for "an imp" or "a devil" – was a good force contrary to what the Christian priests teached of it.

In Väinämöinen's mythology the core Æsir family is called Piru family (Piru-ätt, with the Swedish ätt meaning a family as in Ynglingaätten), with the etymology given as "ring of peace" and "ring of Oden" (Bock 1996, pages 25 and 79). In general this is supported to some degree by other sources, like what we know of similar Perun and old Saxon baptismal vow.

I will add this to my e-book about Black Pete. Thank you.

[Ott]

FromFinland, this is all utterly interesting. I finally had the time to read it carefully. I learnt a bit about Bock Saga before I got to know OLB and it played an important role in understanding (and wanting to understand) the original language. I felt a strong 'resonance' there.

Quote

at least once seen family tree chart stretching back to 1250 dating to later historical times

Can you write more about this?

Quote

Grönhagen reports that in the 1930s 1940s Germany there was a strong anti-Nazi undercurrent within the society, that manifested in schism between old school traditionalists and new school national socialists in schools, universities, military etc. This meant that whereas Himmler was interested in all kinds of exotic viewpoints and was determined to record all such things, many German academic still working as a part of the system did everything they could to derail all of that, so as to keep the German academic scene in pre-1933 spiritual state. This meant that alternative views on old Germans and studies on such matters were being sabotaged by people doing exactly such a work within the system.

Interesting, this explains a lot. I will write you more in PM.

(a general note:) I am still working on the new English OLB translation, which is being improved by two proof readers.

[FromFinland]

3 hours ago, Ott said:

Can you write more about this?

Great to hear from you, Ott. Would not mind if Demiurg, Abramelin and others would come back to the discusssion, too.

You the Dutch have the Oera Linda book as the physical item that can be studied. Aside from actual and potential archeological excavations at three places (Snappertuna grove, Kajaani castle and so-called Balder's temple at Sipoo), the Bock saga has no such physical objects. Due to that, the Finns here have taken interest on the objects that Ior Bock inherited from his Boxström predecessors Rachel and Rhea Boxström. Amongst the usual old fashioned material like tables, chairs and such, there was a wooden cane and a two part family tree written on two papers. In the 2000s Ior's friends tried to research the cane. It was found that two famous Finnish artists from the early 1900s had fashioned similar wooden canes, but upon a closer research that lead came to stop: a photograph provided by a museum showed the canes to be of completely different fashion style wise to one artist's work and another artist's son himself denied the possibility of his father's canes having been ever sold or given for outsiders. It was noted that the inherited cane looked (1, 2) somewhat similar to the walking stick that Gabriele Winckled-Dechend described for the Karl Wiligut to have inherited, as per the 2001 Moynihan's book The Secret King (page 142) description of the Gotenstock. 

In 1998 Ior's summer house was looted by burglars. Burglar was never caught, with the furniture and old photographs lost. See video of the lost material here.

In 1999 when Ior was stabbed and was in hospital, a municipality worker managing his things illegally stole and sold a lot of his city apartment stuff. The municipality worker was caught, got a sentence for wrong doing but the material had already vanished to the black market, with none ever acquired back.

At this point Ior still has the inherited wooden cane, some basic furniture and books. One person close to Ior at that time has told me later that Ior had a two-piece written Boxström family tree. First part was, if my memory is correct, from 1250 to 1500s, and the latter part from 1500s to 20th century. No photographs or copies of it exist to my knowledge. I do not know how precise it was in the 13th century end. To my understanding it was not written by Ior but his predecessors. Ior spoke of this two-part family tree to his friends and to my understanding at least some people actually saw it themselves in the 1980s or 1990s.

Sometime in the 2000s, now living in house provided by the municipality with his assistants, Ior wanted to check his one living room bookshelf, so as to see this two piece family tree. Unable to physically do it himself, he instructs his assistant to do the search. Nothing is found, causing bad feelings on the Ior's side. Ior tells of this unclear situation to his Finnish friends, who are my source on this.

In 2010 the helpless Ior is murdered by one of his assistants, the foreign assistant going free with no punishment to the amazement of us Finns. Luckily, Ior's friends have a presense of mind to catalogue his materials before they are given over to the surviving relatives by the police. Subject matter largely disappears from Finnish general view, save for an occasional media appearance (1, 2).

I have myself seen the Boxström walking stick live in Helsinki, but have never seen the family tree charts myself. I have personally spoken to two persons in Helsinki who claimed the family charts really existed.

If the two part family tree paper really existed as such, it would be spectacular by Finnish standards. Unlike in some Western European countries where some nobles do have family trees stretching all the way back to the medieval times, such things are rare or uknown here in Finland. As many of the old castles and cities that kept the old records burned down or were laid waste, we simply do not have much surviving documents from those late medieval centuries.

Ior Bock's 1996  book gives a basic narrative on the last Æsir. Last king's given name in 1248 was apparently Erik, for his regalia is called Eriks regalier. In the 1250 the family converted to Christianity and separated to two branches: Boxströms ("buck's stream") and Raströms ("ra stream"). The book starts naming persons again in the 19th century and much what is written there is backed by other sources as Boxströms were an eminent family in Finnish autonomy under the Russian rule. The public records for example confirm (1, 2) the story of the Rafael Boxström's murder in 1918 for being member of White Guard paramilitary organisation. Rafael was the original king of Finland as per the family legend and it was because of his murder in 1918 that Ior got the saga from the surviving Rachel (1888-1972) and Rhea Boxström (1899-1984).

Edited September 14, 2016 by FromFinland

[Passing Time]

On 14/09/2016 at 8:14 PM, FromFinland said:

Ior Bock's 1996  book gives a basic narrative on the last Æsir. Last king's given name in 1248 was apparently Erik, for his regalia is called Eriks regalier. In the 1250 the family converted to Christianity and separated to two branches: Boxströms ("buck's stream") and Raströms ("ra stream"). The book starts naming persons again in the 19th century and much what is written there is backed by other sources as Boxströms were an eminent family in Finnish autonomy under the Russian rule. The public records for example confirm (1, 2) the story of the Rafael Boxström's murder in 1918 for being member of White Guard paramilitary organisation. Rafael was the original king of Finland as per the family legend and it was because of his murder in 1918 that Ior got the saga from the surviving Rachel (1888-1972) and Rhea Boxström (1899-1984).

Hi FF.... has Ior Bock's 1996 book been translated into English , and this 1250 separation into two branches , ie the Boxstroms and the Rastroms , are these Rastroms the Roseatte , or Rosette family or are the Roseatte a much more ancient branch ?

  

Edited September 16, 2016 by Passing Time

[FromFinland]

Thanks for the questions, PT. Unfortunately no, it never has been translated to languages other than Finnish. That being said, significant portions of it can be read and heard online in English. All the excerpts given here in this forum have been translated by me for your perusal. 

As per the story, the old Nordic caste system of thrall - karl - earl - petty king - high king broke up in 24th day of July 1050 with an ethnic cleansing operation at South Finland, aimed at the Æsir. Finland was thence in a chaotic state with northern crusades commencing, with parts of southern Finland being under foreign Christian rule. The second Swedish crusade to Finland ended in a discreet pact between Christian Swedish representative Birger Jarl and Æs king of Finland, Erik. Whether this was done without knowledge by Pope, is not mentioned in the story. At that time in 1250 the Piru (Piruett or Piruätt) and Ros (Rosett or Rosätt) families by latest ceased to exist as functioning organs of the society, with no more average Finnish people under their command. The Piru family accepted Catholic christianity and was divided into two halves, Boxströms and Raströms who used also surnames Bock and Ström. They merged again 6th day of July 1841 in double weddings at Snappertuna, south Finland when Carl Gustaf Boxström married Gustava Wilhelmina Ström and Alexander Magnus Boxström married Johanna Erika Emelia Ström. That coming together after separation of 591 years was called joining together of the "families of sun and moon" in the story, and is alleged to have been a fulfillment of an older family prophecy. Ior himself considered the whole thing to be at the end of it in 1996, when the female sources of the story, Rachel and Rhea Boxström, had been already dead for 20 and 12 years respectively.

Rachel and Rhea heard allegedly the story from Knut Victor Boxström and Kristina Victoria Boxström, latter of which was first woman to receive the saga post-1050, as it had been kept within a men's circle from 1050 to 1864. Before 1050, Finnish men and women had their own social circle's and institutions. Ior himself considered the following topics to be of manly aspect: islands and their names, navigation, sailing and stars. Womanly topics had to do with home and how people used to live in general in earlier times. The 1996 book mentions that Rhea explicitly prohibited Ior from reading Kalevala or Edda, so as that they would not mix with the family's own legends.

Comparing to other sources, we can confirm the later geneological details. Boxströms were indeed a wealthy family, owning a large house Bockin talo at the city of Helsinki. While family connections to general Mannerheim and revolutionary Lenin cannot be confirmed from other sources, the direct connection to Russian czars is confirmed. This suggests that Boxström's were already a major family before the Russian takeover in 1809. Family's living grounds at Snappertuna are full of place names connected to the family and heathenry, as can be checked from the maps: Oden's island, Tor's island, Bock island, Stone Ring, Troll island etc. Likewise, the temple of Balder, aka Lemminkäinen's temple, of Sipoo lies in area full of confirmed bronze age cult sites. That local inhabitants might speak other language than Finnish as their primary language, fits well with the Scandinacian and Icelandic sources that detail much intermarrying between the iron age dynasties on both sides of the Baltic Sea.

Personally, I put most merit to the fact that underground stone slabs were found at Sipoo at the exact spot where they ought to be, even though they were not visible above ground when the excavations began. This was followed by an uncertain wall marking and vertical stone slabs hiding behind them a cave leading downwards. How could the Boxströms fake this? I myself visited the site in 2014 and saw stone anomalies that suggested to my amateur eyes possible megalithic structures, such as two fallen down stone pillars and short stone stairways.

Edited September 17, 2016 by FromFinland

[Ott]

15 hours ago, FromFinland said:

Personally, I put most merit to the fact that underground stone slabs were found ...

That has impressed me too. Some aspects of the narrative make much sense to me, while other do not (in particular some of the Root language explanations, for example "all-the-land-ice" for Atlantis: many Greek words end with -is and they have nothing to do with ice).

I have noticed that Ior Bock and some of his followers were (resp. are) cannabis users. From experience (I lived in Amsterdam for 20 years) I know how those tend to expand and believe their (sometimes grandiose) fantasies. This does not mean all is nonsense or useless. The material would have to be somehow filtered and categorised, so that it can be more easily researched.

So I think there is much (very significant) truth there, but much work needs to be done to make it better accessible and investigated. Archaeological finds that are to be expected would greatly speed up this process.

[Passing Time]

20 hours ago, FromFinland said:

 

Not only that the stones were in the positions they expected , but apart from that once they had opened the cave they found that squared carving on the wall , this proved that humans had been inside at some point.......why then if it was an accessible cave , would someone go to the trouble of sealing it up with such large stones , and so much backfilling if there is nothing to find inside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?V=xFBC6UDjLjw

also watch this video and see if any of hassalls findings ring any bells, for instance a Bock is a young deer , the symbol for the tribe of Naphtali , dan in Denmark , Danube etc.the name of Lemminkainen. the name for the people in OLB...ljuda etc,etc

have you ever seen , either on gravestones or standing stones etc the use of the sign inside the star of David shown on those plates.. i mean the Rose sign used by the Sumerians , could that be a Rosette ??

From some info i have on Bock Saga.

  "The first break of the Aser came 9008 years ago as Dan and Sven ,and their followers settled into Danmark and Sweden and founded two new kingdoms.

The branch of Sven populated Sweden, Norway , Iceland , and the North of Britain.

The branch of Dan populated as far as the Alps , and the Pyrenees , and also into the South of Britain.

The old Aser system at that time only existed in Finland , and Russia ( Rusland )

Edited September 18, 2016 by Passing Time

[Passing Time]

That video address does not seem to work try this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFBC6UDjLjw.

 

the Alan Wilson video is good though on the first incorrect  address , and dont forget that a young deer can be called a Bock , but also a Hind... maybe Hindu , and another possible link to OLB and India .

Edited September 18, 2016 by Passing Time

[FromFinland]

Passing Time, I had a look at the video. I scoured my books and collections of archelogical pictures to no avail: I found many of general likeness in design, but not a single exact match for the heart shaped flower pattern. I'm aware that there is a British alternative view on Briton history that is not politically correct nowadays. It's part of a larger pattern:

• Historia Regum Britanniae is for Britons what 
• Lebor Gabála Érenn and Mabinogion are for Irish what 
• Getica, Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks and Irminsaga are for Germanic peoples what
• Hversu Noregr byggðist and Väinämöinen's mythology are for Finns what
• Book of Veles is for Slavic peoples what
• Oera Linda book is for Dutch.

12 hours ago, Ott said:

Some aspects of the narrative make much sense to me, while other do not (in particular some of the Root language explanations, for example "all-the-land-ice" for Atlantis: many Greek words end with -is and they have nothing to do with ice).

Large parts of it are outright mythological, with the 250+ km underground temple of Balder stocked with gold being a gold standard example of a trippy DMT vision. I have myself seen at night dreams of such vast underground hallways. Stories of such underground bases, often larger below ground than above ground, full of treasure or high technology are often mentioned in Nordic folk tales about trolls living underground or in modern UFO abduction tales, as relayed by people under hypnosis. As per the academic literature on the subject, it has something to do with the way our brain chemistry works when asleep, under extreme stress or under effect of hallucinogens, all of which can result in similar iconography, that is seemingly free of cultural bias of the person experiencing it. 

Aside from Väinämöinen's mythology, the Finnish mythos otherwise has strongly mystical elements suggesting a shamanistic experience, like poem about our national hero Ukko Väinämöinen fetching magic spell words from a long time dead wizard Antero Vipunen. These all suggest to me that there are parts in the story, like burning bush in Old Testament and Frya's call from her watch-star in Oera Linda book, that are not necessarily derived from logic but are mystical in nature and origins.

I personally believe the Sipoo site of the Balder's temple may well have been a real heathen cult site used in the Bronze Age and the Iron Age, but I do not see a reason to believe there really exists millions of rooms stocked with gold artifacts from the age of paradise. Of course, I'm happy to be prowed wrong on the latter issue.  

As for the Atlantis and is as "ice", few things. First, both Finns and Greeks speak of direct North-South cultural connection. Väinämöinen's mythology claims an As-Hel - Hellas route, while the Greeks tell of Hyperboreans that must have come either from Finnish or Scandinavian Arctic circle. As per the Greek Diodorus Siculus, the Hyperboreans went to island of Delos. As per the Finland Swedes, there existed a meridian from that went from southern Finland to Greece: island of Delos is almost on that same line. Clearly both sources speak of one and same thing, if they are genuine recollections of older times. So it's theoretically possible that the name of Atlantis, like the story of concentric rings, are echoes of Alt land is and actual ringlands. Ice is frozen water and last European ice age ended in melting ice masses turning into water. Mind you, when Greek describe the Hyperborean ruling dynasty having nature related names like Boreas "North Wind" and Chione "Snow", they get it exactly right: Icelandic sources call them hrímþursar "rime-giants" and vindþursar "wind-giants" with royal names like Snær "Snow", Frosti "Frost", Fǫnn "Snowdrift", Drífa "snowfall", Mjǫll "powdered snow" and so on. The Finnish language names of the chief pantheon too refer to nature: Seppo Ilmarinen "Smith Air", Ukko Väinämöinen "Old man stream pool" etc. Such names survive today in Finnish surnames like Halla "Frost", Pakkanen "Cold" and countless others referring to nature. If the Greeks got this kind of details right, perhaps the Greeks and Egyptians loaned the word Atlantis from the north, too. 

Second, it might be that one of the Boxströms loaned the word from Greek literature. Plato's texts were available in bygone centuries and it's possibly that Boxströms would have been influenced in historical times also by Olaus Rudbeck's Atlantica. Whereas 20th century Boxströms were keen to keep their family stories separate from other sources, who can say with certainty that it was case with earlier generations? Truth is not necessarily pure black and white: theoretically Boxströms might be of genuine Æsir stock and still having been influenced in the 18th century by Olof Rudbeck's ideas, such as Atlantis being situationed in the Baltic and Swedish language being the original Adamic language. This is why we need to be diligent and look with an open mind for literary clues. In that sense I'm very happy you seemingly had independent thoughts on the Atlantis, and did not swallow it outright like a cultist.

12 hours ago, Ott said:

I have noticed that Ior Bock and some of his followers were (resp. are) cannabis users. From experience (I lived in Amsterdam for 20 years) I know how those tend to expand and believe their (sometimes grandiose) fantasies. This does not mean all is nonsense or useless. The material would have to be somehow filtered and categorised, so that it can be more easily researched.

As per archeology, hemp has been cultivated in Finland since 4800 B.C. As Herodotus in 5th century B.C. describes the Scythians using hemp for psychedelic purposes, it's not a stretch to imagine their northern neighbours, us the Finns, having done the same. Especially so, as our mythology contains legends of fractal nature, underground temples, meetings with dead ancestors, humans transforming into birds etc. If it makes you happy Ott, I myself live a very clean life, no hemp or even much alcohol for me.

12 hours ago, Ott said:

So I think there is much (very significant) truth there, but much work needs to be done to make it better accessible and investigated.

We Finns would certainly need a book called Bock Saga: the critical edition. Academic theses and popular books dealing with the subject mostly concentrate on the colourful personality of Ior Bock and give the whole saga matter more or less a pass, even though that is exactly where the core of the matter lies. Or alternatively their viewpoint is mythological, with no aim to check the story for evidence pro or anti. I'm aware of only one such article published by a Finnish academian and frankly it left a lot to be desired: it ignored both the very elementary correlations between various old European sources, some of which I have described in this forum, and the archeological anomalities at the Sipoo site. I felt a bit the same way when I reviewed the 2006 Oera Linda book paper study.

As for the news from the research front, I loaned from my university library a copy of Finnish-American Aarne-Thompson classification system and plan to use it later to categorise the possible folk tale elements in Oera Linda book and Väinämöinen's mythology. As for the curious and spectacular German Kanne family story, as told by Karl Maria Wiligut's assistant Gabriele Winckler-Dechend and echoing very strongly select portions of Väinämöinen's mythology, I have studied the following sources:

• Finger-ring lore, historical, legendary, anecdotal by William Jones, London 1877
• online Store Norske Lexikon, words arisk, Kane
• online Nordisk Familjebok, words arisk, Henricus Johannis Norvegus, Kane, Kanne
• online Norske Slægter, 1912. 

I was unable to find a copy of Norske slegtsmerker, by C. M. Munthe, 1928, nor do I have German genealogy books available to me. It has been suggested to me, that maybe there once existed a literary source for the Kanne story that was available both the Ior Bock and Karl Maria Wiligut. So far I have found none. If there are any Germans or Norwegians here, please do help us in researching this matter. One would need to find a pre-1940 book that would have been publicly available then, and it would need to speak of the followings things as related to each another:

• snakes or snake motifs for jewelry
• rose symbols in coat of arms
• foreign, possibly Nordic, migrants to Central Europe
• Central European knightly orders
• possiby something about Aryans or Karelians
• possibly something about a German Kanne family or Norwegian Kane family.

Edited September 18, 2016 by FromFinland
Fixed typos, as usual.