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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 3]


Abramelin
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There are three goddesses and three races, a goddess for each race. It does seem to fit, too early for me to insist upon it but it's worth pursuing I think.

I think the holy trinity idea predates Christianity, though I might get into trouble saying that, further, I think such trinities were common in many peoples beliefs.

I suppose I'm just trying to begin at the beginning, not always the best way, and here we have the three races and the three ladies which is why I'm asking: who were the races and so on.

The idea of trinity of dieties certainly predates Christianity.

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I believe so but people can get angsty when that's said.

Then they wouldn't much like the part in the OLB where is says that Jesus, Buddha and Krishna were the same person.

Edited by Tony S.
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Then they wouldn't much like the part in the OLB where is says that Jesus, Buddha and Krishna were the same person.

Was Jessos Jesus? Probably. It's all a little too neat this Oera Linda, I'm enjoying looking into it but it's hard to imagine that it could be true.

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Was Jessos Jesus? Probably. It's all a little too neat this Oera Linda, I'm enjoying looking into it but it's hard to imagine that it could be true.

In the Frisian the name is given as Jes-us, or variants thereof, and by the context it is clear that Jesus is meant. Sandbach's (or Ottema's) Victorian sensibilities were presumably responsible for obscuring the issue.

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In the Frisian the name is given as Jes-us, or variants thereof, and by the context it is clear that Jesus is meant. Sandbach's (or Ottema's) Victorian sensibilities were presumably responsible for obscuring the issue.

Well I think I need to read some Oera Linda again, see if I can match these three pesky women with other mythological women.

Is Robert Scrutton worth reading? The covers on his books look pretty shoddy, but one should never judge a book by its cover...

Is there a book, or books, that anyone would recommend?

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Well I think I need to read some Oera Linda again, see if I can match these three pesky women with other mythological women.

Is Robert Scrutton worth reading? The covers on his books look pretty shoddy, but one should never judge a book by its cover...

Is there a book, or books, that anyone would recommend?

Scrutton's first book on the subject, The Other Atlantis, basically contains the entirety of Sandbach's English version (but without the Frisian original), cut up and placed in the wrong order, interspersed with his own commentary, which includes some good ideas, and parallels with other mythologies, particularly Celtic. The sequel, Secrets of Lost Atland, is something of a smorgasbord of ideas and stories many of which, especially those concerned with earth energies, are certainly interesting.

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Lyda warth ut Glyande (fierce heat ) Finda warth ut Heta (strong heat ) and Frya ut Warme Stoff ( moderate heat ) .... i wonder if these three all came together , or like the 6 days of creation , possibly meaning 6 seperate ages ,and the heat refers to ages of the cooling of the planet ,so one came after the other .The black out of Africa, the yellow/brown out of the East , and the white

out of Europe.

a possibility is that Lyda is an anagram of Adya of the Goddess Adya-Kali .................... tentative i know ,

Adya means Primal , and Adya-Kali Primal energy , or Primal darkness, also known as Adya-Shakti , Adya Kali is

usually depicted standing on a dead male God , with blood dripping from her scythe like sword . ( remember the Meteor

crater we discussed before , the Kali crater , and Adya-Kali is also a Goddess of the Dak-shina.... thought to be the

period of 6 months at the pole , where the sun does not rise for 6 months )

if we are thinking of the Goddess Leda , the one who Zeus had his way with , whilst she was transformed into a swan , we

could also think of Adela which is A-leda in reverse . or even the name Black Adel . here is a picture of Black Adya-Kali

Maha_Kali_first_in_dus_mahavidya.jpg

https://shestirs.wor...10/adya-shakti/

and here some info on Adya-Kali ....possibly her out of Glyande heat

Edited by Passing Time
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Germanic and Norse mythology has some differences regardless of the common origin. Frigga is a seperate entity to the Germanic peoples whereas there's some sort of shared existence between Frigga and Freya in the Norse? Perhaps I'm wrong.

Freya may be a title, but there was a goddess called Freya who was The Lady.

The Lady is also an anag of Lyda ???

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Lyda warth ut Glyande (fierce heat ) Finda warth ut Heta (strong heat ) and Frya ut Warme Stoff ( moderate heat ) .... i wonder if these three all came together , or like the 6 days of creation , possibly meaning 6 seperate ages ,and the heat refers to ages of the cooling of the planet ,so one came after the other .The black out of Africa, the yellow/brown out of the East , and the white

out of Europe.

a possibility is that Lyda is an anagram of Adya of the Goddess Adya-Kali .................... tentative i know ,

Adya means Primal , and Adya-Kali Primal energy , or Primal darkness, also known as Adya-Shakti , Adya Kali is

usually depicted standing on a dead male God , with blood dripping from her scythe like sword . ( remember the Meteor

crater we discussed before , the Kali crater , and Adya-Kali is also a Goddess of the Dak-shina.... thought to be the

period of 6 months at the pole , where the sun does not rise for 6 months )

if we are thinking of the Goddess Leda , the one who Zeus had his way with , whilst she was transformed into a swan , we

could also think of Adela which is A-leda in reverse . or even the name Black Adel . here is a picture of Black Adya-Kali

Maha_Kali_first_in_dus_mahavidya.jpg

https://shestirs.wor...10/adya-shakti/

and here some info on Adya-Kali ....possibly her out of Glyande heat

I wasn't really too sure about what the different heats were all about, my tentative theory was that it concerned the climate of the races. Africa was the hottest and so on, but that doesn't really work.

I think you could connect the Frya, Lyda and Finda with lots of goddesses but the Frya and Freya match, if true, suggests to me that the other matches would also be close at hand.

I've just read the first thread of this discussion, there's a theory that this was a Frisian joke and that all the geography is in modern day Frisia and that the peoples of the tale were also people from the time of writing.

What do people think of that? It sounds like a neat fit.

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Personally, I try to stay on track with the text and not make too many guesses that have seemingly very little relation to the OLB mention so I haven't that much to say on the Kali, Lyda/lady thing going on here.

Seems to me the heat factors could relate to the continents held sway by the 3 mothers, Lydasland (Africa) was fierce heat, Findasland was strong heat, as I believe much of Asia including todays Middle East is in a general sense, not fierce but with the many deserts its certainly hot, then Fryasland is moderate heat, warm and temperate, as Europe generally is. It mentions also that in her day it would have been warmer than today.

It also seems to match their own temperaments.

Good to hear you got through the first thread zxc. Abe proposes that idea. I think some of it works and some doesn't.

Edited by The Puzzler
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I hope Christmas was good for you.

Thankyou, it was. :santa:

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Are Finns Finnish?

That is a good question. While study of the Over de Linden manuscript has not happened at all from the Finnish point of view, it could possibly be very valuable if it indeed spoke about Finnish peoples. There exists few known old sources speaking of Finns, to which we must also include Estonians and pre-Rurikid Russians for we are more or less the same people racially, culturally and linguistically. To an outsider, the matter of Finns in old records can be somewhat confusing:

  • in Finnish language 'Finland' is Suomi and 'Finnish' is suomalainen
  • Norse sources call Finns either by nation (Finland) or by geographical tribal distinction of Kvens, Häme people, Carelians, Ålanders, Bjarmians and so on
  • some Norse sources use term Finn to refer instead to Lapps of the Lapland, who in turn are a people culturally and racially distinct from Finns and Scandinavians
  • medieval Russian sources call Finns by national or tribal names like sumj (Suomi ie. Finland) or jem (Häme)
  • in medieval sources 'castle of Finland' was Somelinde ie. Suomenlinna.
  • Claudius Ptolemy in his Geography from around 150 AD mentions Finns (Finni) and likely also Estonians (Ossi) and Carelians (Careotae) in Baltic and Eastern European context
  • Tacitus in his Germania from around 98 AD mentions both Finns (Fennii) and Estonians (Aestii)
  • Finnish researcher Pasi Ockenström puts Fennii of Tacitus near Pripyat river of Belarus and notes that archeological evidence from modern-day Finland doesn't fit exactly the description of the Fennii.

I have attached a map of Northern Europe showing modern Finland, possibly Fennii of Belarus and the known locations of old Finnish military forces west of modern day Finland:

  1. conquering and founding Norway, as per How Norway was Settled, The Foundation of Norway, A History of Norway and indirectly confirmed by existence of very the same characters like on Iku-Turso (Fornjot) and Iku-Tiera (Thorri) son of Niera (Thorri son of Snaer) in Finnish folklore and poetry.
  2. Battle of Brávellir in Sweden, where according to Saxo Häme people, Ålanders and Estonians took part, all of which are Finns.
  3. according to the The Foundation of Norway, Goi son of Finnish king Thorri had kinsmen in Denmark.

I personally study the Over de Linden manuscript to see if it contains references to forefathers of my kin, and am thus very happy for Jan Ott's work on a new translation. I do not know with certainty if the manuscript is authentic (as opposed to forgery) or if it is accurate (as opposed to unaccurate), though same problem exists regarding to many other old sources of information.

post-151977-0-37141600-1451268448_thumb.

Edited by FromFinland
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I have collected together all the references to Atland/Aldland in the OLB in an attempt to determine where its authors presumed it to be. Most of the time it is used for chronological purposes - i.e. to date a specific event "after the submergence of Atland" - and since this tells us nothing about its location, I have excluded such examples from the quotes below. After each passage I have added my own commentary. I'll start, however, with a quotation from Jurgen Spanuth's Atlantis of the North (1976):

"In the Eddas the northlands are called Atalland (Thule 23.74) and the sea Atle's path (20.320)... the name Atal or Atle is that of a sea king... Atland, Adalland, Oatland occur frequently in old records as names for districts in various countries around the North Sea."

Spanuth makes no mention of the OLB in Atlantis of the North, yet here he mentions names that have very close resonances with it. In particular Atal, or Atle, is simply another form of the name Adel, which appears very frequently in the OLB (along with its feminine form, Adela). Adel was the name of four Frisian kings, and we can assume it was a popular name among the Frisians, perhaps recalling a legendary sea king of old. It is also, incidentally, very similar to Atlas, described by Plato as the first king of Atlantis.

From the OLB

4

Unfortunate Finda! She died in the bloom of her age, and the mode of her death is unknown.

Hypocritical children! Her corpse was buried under a costly stone, pompous inscriptions were written on it, and loud lamentations were heard at it, but in private not a tear was shed.

Despicable people! The laws that Finda established were written on golden tables, but the object for which they were made was never attained. The good laws were abolished, and selfishness instituted bad ones in their place. O Finda! then the earth overflowed with blood, and your children were mown down like grass. Yes, Finda! those were the fruits of your vanity. Look down from your watch-star and weep.

...

Wise Frya! When she had seen her children reach the seventh generation, she summoned them all to Flyland, and there gave them her Tex, saying, “Let this be your guide, and it can never go ill with you.”

Exalted Frya! When she had thus spoken the earth shook like the sea of Wr-alda. The ground of Flyland sank beneath her feet, the air was dimmed by tears, and when they looked for their mother she was already risen to her watching star; then at length thunder burst from the clouds, and the lightning wrote upon the firmament “Watch!”

Far-seeing Frya! The land from which she had risen was now a stream, and except her Tex all that was in it was overwhelmed.

Obedient children! When they came to themselves again, they made this high mound and built this citadel upon it, and on the walls they wrote the Tex, and that every one should be able to find it they called the land about it Texland. Therefore it shall remain as long as the earth shall be the earth.

Here the OLB tells us that shortly after the death of Finda, eponymous ancestress of the Finns, her descendants suffered some sort of cataclysm. Later in the same chapter we learn that Frya, eponymous ancestress of the Frisians, perished in a cataclysm that involved the destruction of a land called Flyland. Flyland (Vlieland) still exists, of course, as a small island, as is mentioned numerous times in the OLB after this event, so we may presume it was once much larger, as indeed archaeology confirms. Furthermore, we are told, that the land thereabouts was named Texland, i.e. Texel, the adjacent island to Vlieland. This, however, still tells us nothing about Atland/Aldland.

8

In early times almost all the Finns lived together in their native land, which was called Aldland, and is now submerged. They were thus far away, and we had no wars. When they were driven hitherwards, and appeared as robbers, then arose the necessity of defending ourselves, and we had armies, kings, and wars.

Here, for the first time, we have some geographical information about Atland/Aldland. Namely, that it was the homeland of the Finns, that it was far away, and that it is now submerged.

21

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.

On one side we were bounded by Wr-alda’s Sea, on which no one but us might or could sail; on the other side we were hedged in by the broad Twiskland (Tusschenland, Duitschland), through which the Finda people dared not come on account of the thick forests and the wild beasts.

Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the East Sea, and westward to the Mediterranean Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.

The banks of these rivers were at one time entirely inhabited by our people, as well as the banks of the Rhine from one end to the other. Opposite Denmark and Jutland we had colonies and a Burgtmaagd. Thence we obtained copper and iron, as well as tar and pitch, and some other necessaries. Opposite to us we had Britain, formerly Westland, with her tin mines.

Britain was the land of the exiles, who with the help of their Burgtmaagd had gone away to save their lives; but in order that they might not come back they were tattooed with a B on the forehead, the banished with a red dye, the other criminals with blue. Moreover, our sailors and merchants had many factories among the distant Krekalanders and in Lydia. In Lydia (Lybia) the people are black. As our country was so great and extensive, we had many different names. Those who were settled to the east of Denmark were called Jutten, because often they did nothing else than look for amber (jutten) on the shore. Those who lived in the islands were called Letten, because they lived an isolated life. All those who lived between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt, were called Stuurlieden (pilots), Zeekampers (naval men), and Angelaren (fishermen). The Angelaren were men who fished in the sea, and were so named because they used lines and hooks instead of nets. From there to the nearest part of Krekaland the inhabitants were called Kadhemers, because they never went to sea but remained ashore.

Those who were settled in the higher marches bounded by Twisklanden (Germany) were called Saxmannen, because they were always armed against the wild beasts and the savage Britons. Besides these we had the names Landzaten (natives of the land), Marzaten (natives of the fens), and Woud or Hout zaten (natives of the woods).

* Stjurar, in Latin Sturii.

† Sêkâmpar, in Latin Sicambri.

‡ Angelara, in Latin Angli.

* Mârsata, in Latin Marsacii.

This is a crucial passage that describes the extent of the Frisians lands, corresponding very precisely with the extent of the megalithic culture as is now known from archaeology, which existed in these regions at exactly the same time.

22

During the whole summer the sun had been hid behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and the marshes. The air was heavy and oppressive, and in men’s hearts was neither joy nor cheerfulness. In the midst of this stillness the earth began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of the earth, and in other places mountains rose out of the plain. Aldland, called by the seafaring people, Atland, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea. Many people were swallowed up by the earth, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the water.

It was not only in Finda’s land that the earth vomited fire, but also in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift.

During three years this continued, but at length it ceased, and forests became visible. Many countries were submerged, and in other places land rose above the sea, and the wood was destroyed through the half of Twiskland (Germany). Troops of Finda’s people came and settled in the empty places. Our dispersed people were exterminated or made slaves. Then watchfulness was doubly impressed upon us, and time taught us that union is force.

Aldland, in Latin Atlantis.

This passage tells us that Atland and Aldland were the same place, and also confirms that it sank. It also, in the next paragraph, confirms that Atland/Aldland was the land of the Finns (Finda's descendants), and that the cataclysm that destroyed it affected a far wider area, including Twiskland, i.e. the forested regions of central Europe. It states that after the destruction of their homeland, groups of Finns migrated to and settled in this area.

23

One hundred and one years after the submersion of Aldland a people came out of the East. That people was driven by another. Behind us, in Twiskland (Germany), they fell into disputes, divided into two parties, and each went its own way. Of the one no account has come to us, but the other came in the back of our Schoonland, which was thinly inhabited, particularly the upper part. Therefore they were able to take possession of it without contest, and as they did no other harm, we would not make war about it. Now that we have learned to know them, we will describe their customs, and after that how matters went between us. They were not wild people, like most of Finda’s race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their churches. The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magyars, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and in subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finns, because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect. But still they are not to be envied, because they are slaves to their priests, and still more to their creeds. They believe that evil spirits abound everywhere, and enter into men and beasts, but of Wr-alda’s spirit they know nothing. They have weapons of stone, the Magyars of copper. The Magyars affirm that they can exorcise and recall the evil spirits, and this frightens the people, so that you never see a cheerful face. When they were well established, the Magyars sought our friendship, they praised our language and customs, our cattle and iron weapons, which they would willingly have exchanged for their gold and silver ornaments, and they always kept their people within their own boundaries, and that outwitted our watchfulness.

Here we have more details of the Finnish migration, confirming that they first arrived in Twiskland (central Europe) from the east. They were driven by another, unnamed people, and subsequently divided into two groups. One group then headed north, to Scandinavia. So it would appear that Atland/Aldland was somewhere east of central Europe. We know from archaeology and linguistic studies that the Finno-Ugric peoples originated in the area of the northern Ural mountains, and began their migrations around 2000 BC (very close to the date given in the OLB, 2093 BC), but there is certainly no sunken land anywhere near the Urals, and no room for one.

24

When Teunis wished to return home, he went first towards Denmark; but he might not land there, for so the mother had ordered, nor was he to land at Flyland nor anywhere about there. In this way he would have lost all his people by want and hardship, so he landed at night to steal and sailed on by day. Thus coasting along, he at length arrived at the colony of Kadik (Cadiz), so called because it was built with a stone quay. Here they bought all kinds of stores, but Tuntia the Burgtmaagd would not allow them to settle there. When they were ready they began to disagree. Teunis wished to sail through the straits to the Mediterranean Sea, and enter the service of the rich Egyptian king, as he had done before, but Inka said he had had enough of all those Finda’s people. Inka thought that perchance some high-lying part of Atland might remain as an island, where he and his people might live in peace. As the two cousins could not agree, Teunis planted a red flag on the shore, and Inka a blue flag. Every man could choose which he pleased, and to their astonishment the greater part of the Finns and Magyars followed Inka, who had objected to serve the kings of Finda’s people. When they had counted the people and divided the ships accordingly, the fleet separated. We shall hear of Teunis afterwards, but nothing more of Inka.

Neef Teunis coasted through the straits to the Mediterranean Sea. When Atland was submerged there was much suffering also on the shores of the Mediterranean, on which account many of Finda’s people, Krekalanders, and people from Lyda’s land, came to us. On the other hand, many of our people went to Lyda’s land. The result of all this was that the Krekalanders far and wide were lost to the superintendence of the mother.

This tells us that the Frisians believed it was possible to sail to Atland/Aldland from Cadiz in south-western Spain. We might also presume that Inka headed west, if his name is intended to have any connection with the Incas of Peru.

44

Sixteen hundred years ago (she writes, 593 B.C.), Atland was submerged; and at that time something happened which nobody had reckoned upon. In the heart of Findasland, upon a mountain, lies a plain called Kasamyr (Cashmere) that is “extraordinary.” There was a child born whose mother was the daughter of a king, and whose father was a high-priest.

Here we are told that Kashmir, in northern India, is in the heart of Finda's land.

50

Punjab, that is five rivers, and by which we travel, is a river of extraordinary beauty, and is called Five Rivers, because four other streams flow into the sea by its mouth. Far away to the eastward is another large river, the Holy or Sacred Ganges. Between these two rivers is the land of the Hindoos. Both rivers run from the high mountains to the plains. The mountains in which their sources lie are so high that they reach the heavens (laia), and therefore these mountains are called Himmellaia. Among the Hindoos and others out of these countries there are people who meet together secretly. They believe that they are pure children of Finda, and that Finda was born in the Himmellaia mountains, whence she went with her children to the lowlands. Some of them believe that she, with her children, floated down upon the foam of the Ganges, and that that is the reason why the river is called the Sacred Ganges. But the priests, who came from another country, traced out these people and had them burnt, so that they do not dare to declare openly their creed. In this country all the priests are fat and rich. In their churches there are all kinds of monstrous images, many of them of gold. To the west of the Punjab are the Yren (Iraniers), or morose (Drangianen), the Gedrosten (Gedrosiers), or runaways, and the Urgetten, or forgotten. These names are given by the priests out of spite, because they fled from their customs and religion. On their arrival our forefathers likewise established themselves to the east of the Punjab, but on account of the priests they likewise went to the west. In that way we learned to know the Yren and other people. The Yren are not savages, but good people, who neither pray to nor tolerate images; neither will they suffer priests or churches; but as we adhere to the light of Fasta, so they everywhere maintain fire in their houses. Coming still further westward, we arrive at the Gedrosten. Regarding the Gedrosten: They have been mixed with other people, and speak a variety of languages. These people are really savage murderers, who always wander about the country on horseback hunting and robbing, and hire themselves as soldiers to the surrounding princes, at whose command they destroy whatever they can reach.

We are told here that secret groups among the Hindus, and others, believe that Finda was born in the Himalyas, but that other groups opposed this belief. It is important to note that the OLB does not state that this was actually the case, rather, that these secret groups happened to believe it. We may further add that there is no sunken land anywhere near the Himalayas and no room for one, either.

Conclusion

Olaf Rudbeck, who first used the term Atland in the 17th century, believed it was Sweden, but this is explicity excluded by the OLB since Sweden is Skenland (Schoonland in Sandbach's translation). Since we know from archaeology that the Finns originated in the northern Urals, we can perhaps posit a sunken land in the Arctic Ocean, in the region of Novaya Zemlya. This frigid and icebound region is the nearest area of sea to the northern Urals. This conclusion, however, ignores the fact that Atland and similar names have long been applied to lands in the North Sea, as collected by Spanuth. And why would the Frisians use the destruction of a faraway land inhabited by their enemies as a basis for counting years? Also, what about Inka, sailing west, if indeed he did so? Perhaps, after all, the terms Atland and Aldland were used, at least in some contexts, as synonyms for all the lands destroyed in 2194 BC, of the half-remembered golden age before the bad time came.

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Adel was the name of four Frisian kings, and we can assume it was a popular name among the Frisians, perhaps recalling a legendary sea king of old.

Recurring themes in royal naming are common in Europe, as previously mentioned by The Puzzler. Anglo-Saxons had Aethel, Frisians apparently Adel, late Swedish kings often had Erik or Eirik as given name. Recurring naming patterns in Finnish royal or leadership context are: I) nature and winter related names, some of which are Finnish surnames still today (Halla, Pakkanen); II) Tor-related names as in king Thorri/Iki-Tiera, princess Thora, dynasty of thurses/turisas/Iku-Turso; III) age related names as in Fornjot dynasty (forn = 'ancient') of Iku-Turso and Iki-Tiera (iki = 'of age', 'ancient') and in pagan songs:

"Tuo oli laulaja ikuinen, = He was a singer eternal,

Virren porras polvuhinen, = step of hymn knee-high,

Tuop' on vanha Wainamoinen, = that is old Vainamoinen, [ie. Odin]

Toinen seppo Ilmarinen, = second smith Ilmarinen, [ie. Tor]

Kolmas lieto Lemminkainen, = third Lemminkainen, [ie. Balder]

Seki kaunis Kaukomieli, = he the beautiful Far-mind,

Pohjan neiti neljantena;, = young lady of North as fourth,

Pohjan neiti, Pohjan akka, = young lady of North, old woman of North,

Viies Antero Wipunen, = Antero Vipunen the fifth,

Se kuues Kaleva vanha. = that sixth Kaleva the Old. [father of Vainamoinen and Ilmarinen]

Viel' oli nuori Joukahainen, = Still there existed young Joukahainen,

Viela muitaki monia, = and many others,

Joit' ennen isoni lauloi, = of which my father used to sing of,

Oma vanhempi opetti." = my own elder taught of. (Kanteletar, song 278.)

In early times almost all the Finns lived together in their native land, which was called Aldland, and is now submerged.

Variation of this theme was included in a 1996 book written by Finnish tour guide and former actor Ior Bock (1942-2010), according to whom he was taught orally an old family saga between 1949-1969 by his adoptive family of Rachel Boxstrom (1888-1976) and Rhea Boxstrom (1899-1984). Namely, ice age was known in this bi-lingual family tradition as allt land is, meaning 'all land ice'. It ended in a catastrophical way 8016 BC when the warm water from Atlantic melted the huge ice blocks, resulting in an ice slide destroying most of the Nordic lands in process, save for few forefathers of the Nordic white race who survived and later on spread outwards from the island of Gotland. Unfortunately, this family saga has received very little academic interest and as of 2015 there doesn't exist any deep studies of it.

Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the East Sea
What is the East Sea on this context? Baltic Sea is called 'East Sea' in some European languages.
Opposite to us we had Britain, formerly Westland, with her tin mines. Britain was the land of the exiles, who with the help of their Burgtmaagd had gone away to save their lives; but in order that they might not come back they were tattooed with a B on the forehead, the banished with a red dye, the other criminals with blue. ... Saxmannen, because they were always armed against the wild beasts and the savage Britons.

If anyone desires to research the British aspect of this story, I recommend to have a look at Geoffrey of Monmouth's The History of the Kings of Britain and the traditions behind it. They have it the other way around: Britain of Britons was a high society of learning and culture, that was ravaged by barbaric Angles and Saxons. This is a pattern where one's own culture is usually shown to be the only true, right and proper way of life, typically under existential foreign threat.

Aldland, called by the seafaring people, Atland, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea.
In chapter XIII of The Norsemen the British historian Helene Adeline Guerber notes the following: "In the course of a walk along the sea-shore Odin once beheld nine beautiful giantessess, the wave maidens, Gialp, Greip, Egia, Augeia, Ulfrun, Aurgiafa, Sindur, Atla, and Iarnsaxa, sound asleep on the white sand." In addition, in Finnish language 'wave' is aalto.

(Edit: I'm having serious problems with the Scandinavian letters of a and o with dots, I can't make them to look okay.)

Edited by FromFinland
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New and returning posters welcome!

I thought the thread was dying, but it looks like we can breath some new life in it.

I don't have the inspirtation yet to reply to posts, although some of it is very interesting, but today on a trip I made some pictures that I think are fascinating.

It was in a small German village (Rimbach, Bornhagen) and shows how the 6 spoke wheel was integrated into the Christian symbology:

rimbach1.JPG

rimbach2.JPG

Both were taken at the same old tavern and I also saw meat hanging from a tree there, which I heard is an ancient (prechristian) tradition around yule/ midwinter (it shows that religious christian people still have kept some of the much older ways):

rimbach3.JPG

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Soryy if it appears I simply dump this post and run off. But apparently many changed their forum names and new posters showed up, and I don't have time to read and respond to all of it. Being in the internet café doesn't help either...

About the etymology of "Twiskland":

Uit:

KEUR VAN NEDERLANDSCHE WOORDAFLEIDINGEN

T. PLUIM, 1911, uitg. J. MUUSSES TE PURMEREND

Duitsch. In het Oudgermaansch moet een woord teuta

bestaan hebben, in de bet. van volk, volksstam. De volksstammen

in Germanië namen dit woord min of meer gewijzigd

over: Got. thiuda, Angels. theod, Ohd. diot, Os. thiod, Mnl.

diet. Het bijv. naamw. werd in 't Got. thiudisk, d. i. tot

het volk behoorende, nationaal, Ohd. diutisc, Os. thiudisc,

Mnl. Dietsch.

Toen bij de invoering van het Christendom (+ 800) de

kerk behoefte kreeg de taal van de volken in Germanië

door een gezamenlijk woord aan te duiden — in tegenstelling

met het Latijn, de kerktaal — noemde men de volkstaal:

theodisca lingua [= volks-taal). Uit dit woord is later Duitsch

[Dietsch) ontstaan als naam voor de taal van de Germaansche

stammen (dus ook voor ons) ; vandaar dat in de Middeleeuwen

met ,,het Dietsch" ook onze taal bedoeld werd.

Later werd het beperkt tot het Hoogduitsch. — Sedert de

12e eeuw werd het woord „Duitsch" niet meer tot de taal

beperkt, maar kreeg het ook betrekking op andere zelfstandigheden

: het volk, het land [das tiusche lant -- Duitschland).

Verwant is duidelijk : voor 't volk verstaanbaar ; duiden : zóó

helder aanwijzen, dat het volk het begrijpt; en diets [z. d.w.).

In English:

Duitsch. In Old Germanic a word 'teuta' must have existed, meaning 'folk', 'tribe'.

The tribes of Germania adopted this word in a more or less changed way:

Gothic 'thiuda', Anglo-Saxon 'theod', Old High German 'diot', Old Saxon 'thiod',

Middle Dutch 'diet'.

When, during the introduction of Christianity ( c. 800), the church needed one common word to denominate the languages of the peoples of Germania- as opposed to Latin,

the church language -, it called the language of the common people

'theodisca lingua' [folk language]. From this word originated the later 'Dietsch' as name for the language of the Germanic tribes (and thus for us >> the Dutch); that's why during the middle ages 'Dietsch' was also used for our (=the Dutch) language.

Later on it was only used for High German. - Since the 12th century the word 'Duitsch' was not only used for the language, but also for other entities: the folk, the land [das tiusche lant -- Deutschland].

A clear relation: understandable for the people; 'duiden': to clearly explain for the people so they will understand; and 'diets'.

==

And so we have an alternative etymology for the OLB "Twiskland". Not "in between land", or "tussenland" (NE), but simply land of the Teuta, the Theodisca speaking people(s).

The OLB etymology for Twiskland (or better, the one suggested in the MS) appears to be a socalled folk etymology because the Old Frisian language happened to have a same word, 'twisk' meaning 'in between' (betwixt). Hence it must be younger than the original etymology, and hence younger than, say, the 12th century (see quote above).

==

A GRAMMAR OF MODERN INDO-EUROPEAN (notes, p.31 of online pdf)

Carlos Quiles Casas

76. IE téuta means originally people, tribe; as Gmc. theudo (cf. Goth. þiuda, O.N. þjóð, O.E. þeoð, O.H.G.

diutisc, M.Du. duitsch, Eng. Dutch, Ger. Deutsch, Ice. Þýska , L.Lat. theodice, It. tedesco), Osc. touto, Umb. totam,

Illyr. teuta, O.Prus. tauto, Lith. tauta, Ltv. tauta, Gaul. teuto, O.Ir. tath; Hitt. tuzzi. Lyc. tuta. Today the Germanic

adjective equivalent to MIE Teutiskós is mainly used to describe Germans (also in a wider sense of Germanspeaking

people) and Germany (cf. Dan., Nor, Swe. tysk, Du. Duits, Ice. Þýskur, Lat. theodisco, It. tedesco, Rum.

tudestg, even Chinese du, Japanese doitsu, Korean dogeo, or Vietnamese Ð?c), hence Téutiskom, German

language, Teutiskoléndhom, Germany, from O.H.G. Diutisklant, Ger. Deutschland.

==

Þeodscland/Þeodiscland/Theodiscland >> Twiskland

http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9E%C4%93odiscland

See also:

http://s6.photobucket.com/user/Abramelinn/media/OLB/Tuiscon.jpg.html

In Westphalia the language is called "Düsk"...

So, originally the name, Twiskland, had nothing to do with being 'in between' anything

++++++++++++++++++++

Another thing...

(MS50)

(....)

alsa is thju skêdnesse

100 änd l jêr nêi that âld.land svnken is. kêm thêr ut.et (MS51) âsta en folk wêi.

thät folk was vrdrêven thrvch en ôther folk. äfter vs twisk.land krêjon hja

twispalt.

Zo is de geschiedenis

100 en l jaar nadat Aldland (ver)zonken is, kwam daar uit 't oosten een volk weg.

Dat volk was verdreven door een ander volk. Achter *ons* Twiskland, kregen zij

tweespalt.

100 and 1 year after Aldland had sunk, a people came from the east.

That people was driven away by another people. Behind OUR Twiskland they had a disagreement/discord.

OUR(!) Twiskland....Now take a look at Alewyn's map:

http://s6.photobucket.com/user/Abramelinn/media/OLB/OLB_map_Alewyn6.jpg.html

He places Twiskland all the way in Russia, and as separate from the Fryan empire!

That is not the only thing that is wrong about his map: the Fryans didn't own Iberia, they only had a colony there: Kadik (Cadiz). They also didn't own the whole of the Balkan, Italy, Greece and northern Africa.(He did finally accept that the Aster Sea was nothing else but the Baltic or East Sea, which was later called the Balda Sea in the OLB).

I can go on like this: not the whole of Scandinavia was part of the empire, only a colony in southern Sweden, Schoonland, or what's roughly modern Scania, and part of southern Norway. The "Berchland" (land of mountains) on the map was not located in northern Spain, but somewhere in Scotland.

.

And Alewyn assumed Brittain - even Ireland!- was part of the Fryan empire (or why else did he give it the same color, yellow?), but Brittain was only the land to which the banned with their folkmothers went to escape excecution, to save their lives - "vmbe hira lif to bihaldana" - as the OLB itself says; Ireland doesn't even show up in the OLB...

But we have seen in part1 of this thread that his mistake of adding Brittain was based on an error in Sandbach's translation (about where the Westland was located).

I hope he came up with a better map in the second edition of his book. Did anyone here already read it, btw?

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Some thoughts on the interesting points raised.

To get a grip on the OLB subject of Finda/Altland/Kashmir beneath is how I try interprete the puzzle (personal interpretation thus).

I agree the discription of the three "races" Frya/Finda/Lyda can reference also to a psychological aspect.

But still further this can also mean the names point to groups of people by their stand in live and their means of supporting their lives.

Then

Frya are the free people, no strings attached for them.

Finda are the Finding-people (agile colonial power under the yoke of the priests who are into belief systems purely for their own gain).

Lyda are the foot people, doing the hard work for the gain of others.

Findas people are mainly to be connected with "finding-rykheid", as I see it cunningness.

The sly man, very well versed in agile movement taking place left open by others. This is typical figuratively merchant behaviour, in case of the Findas backed by a supperstition used by the priests to keep the flock, surely the loot on the cord. The wild sheppards in this could be only the punching power easily to use or blame.

Then imo the Finda came from the greater area of the Black and Caspian Sea, all the land that us now mainly a sea.

I can't clear out the links in my head with Orthodox (they are "fine" (vain) in their belief those hypocrite puritins, i hear free people think) Byzantium.

A lot to read about Egypt and Byzantium too, let us not speak about the trade routes towards Syndh and Ab-Synd vice versa.

After the deluge they moved north, but also up the mountains towards Kush. Still after encountered there in their new homeland by the Frisians.

Being the ruler priests of the gentile population (who believe in truth they came from the Himalayas, after there forefathers themselved fled to the high security of the mountains).

So Aldland is to find everywhere, in every continent. Kashmere alone can't be the case of a continent-wide movement of people till even Scandinavia.

The reason is the in name imo:

Oud-land: is a general term used for low lying land but high enough (or protected with dams or ditches).

In other words: oud-land is the first land to secure or it will be overran by water if waterlevel raises.

As the Low Lands are the first in the world to have secured their shore lines with "polders", this term is still used an sich wordwide.

Ald-Land is then no foreign concept to them also.

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Hence it must be younger than the original etymology, and hence younger than, say, the 12th century

Your logic is flawed.

OLB has THJUD for people/ folk.

TWISK is another word, meaning between, like english (be)twixt, saterland frisian twiske.

Some examples:

TWISK ANNEN GRÉVET.MAN AND THA MÉNTE

TWISK THÀT BERCHTA EN BURCH BVWA

VPPA GRVND TWISK THA SÛDLIKA HÛSA

Nowhere it is suggested that TWISKLAND is THJUD.S.LAND.

Thy could roughly refer to the same area, and they could be related by association, but it proves nothing.

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One hundred and one years after the submersion of Aldland a people came out of the East. That people was driven by another.

This reminds me of two parallels:

  1. Authors of Wikipedia state: "Cited by the 4th-century historian Ammianus Marcellinus, Timagenes (1st century BC) describes how the ancestors of the Gauls were driven from their native lands in eastern Europe by a succession of wars and floods."
  2. Fridtjof Nansen's study on fate of the Finnish Bjarmians in Medieval times, page 140: "The name of the Bjarmas themselves disappears after the middle of the thirteenth century, when it its related that a number of Bjarmas fled before the "Mongols" and received permission from King Håkon to live in Malangen fjord." (There is also stuff on Frisians starting right from page 147.)

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Hélène Adeline Guerber of Britain has the following story to share on the origins of the Frisian laws, as seen in chapter XII of her book Myths of the Norsemen:

"
The Story of Heligoland

In order to facilitate the administration of justice throughout their land it is related that the Frisians commissioned twelve of their wisest men, the Asegeir, or elders, to collect the laws of the various families and tribes composing their nation, and to compile from them a code which should be the basis of uniform laws. The elders, having painstakingly finished their task of collecting this miscellaneous information, embarked upon a small vessel, to seek some secluded spot where they might conduct their deliberations in peace. But no sooner had they pushed away from shore than a tempest arose, which drove their vessel far out to sea, first on this course and then on that, until they entirely lost their bearings. In their distress the twelve jurists called upon Forseti, begging him to help them to reach land once again, and the prayer was scarcely ended when they perceived, to their utter surprise, that the vessel contained a thirteenth passenger.

Seizing the rudder, the newcomer silently brought the vessel round, steering it towards the place where the waves dashed highest, and in an incredibly short space of time they came to an island, where the steersman motioned them to disembark. In awestruck silence the twelve men obeyed; and their surprise was further excited when they saw the stranger fling his battle-axe, and a limpid spring gush forth from the spot on the greensward where it fell. Imitating the stranger, all drank of this water without a word; then they sat down in a circle, marvelling because the newcomer resembled each one of them in some particular, but yet was very different from any one of them in general aspect and mien.

Suddenly the silence was broken, and the stranger began to speak in low tones, which grew firmer and louder as he proceeded to expound a code of laws which combined all the good points of the various existing regulations which the Asegeir had collected. His speech being finished, the speaker vanished as suddenly and mysteriously as he had appeared, and the twelve jurists, recovering power of speech, simultaneously exclaimed that Forseti himself had been among them, and had delivered the code of laws by which the Frisians should henceforth be judged. In commemoration of the god’s appearance they declared the island upon which they stood to be holy, and they pronounced a solemn curse upon any who might dare to desecrate its sanctity by quarrel or bloodshed. Accordingly this island, known as Forseti’s land or Heligoland (holy land), was greatly respected by all the Northern nations, and even the boldest vikings refrained from raiding its shores, lest they should suffer shipwreck or meet a shameful death in punishment for their crime.

Solemn judicial assemblies were frequently held upon this sacred isle, the jurists always drawing water and drinking it in silence, in memory of Forseti’s visit. The waters of his spring were, moreover, considered to be so holy that all who drank of them were held to be sacred, and even the cattle who had tasted of them might not be slain. As Forseti was said to hold his assizes in spring, summer, and autumn, but never in winter, it became customary, in all the Northern countries, to dispense justice in those seasons, the people declaring that it was only when the light shone clearly in the heavens that right could become apparent to all, and that it would be utterly impossible to render an equitable verdict during the dark winter season. Forseti is seldom mentioned except in connection with Balder. He apparently had no share in the closing battle in which all the other gods played such prominent parts."

The story is interesting for many reasons. Let's examine it more closely:

twelve of their wisest men, the Asegeir, or elders

Ior Bock of Finnish Boxström saga had this to say on the topic, from his 1996 book page 19 with my translation:

Lag … Twelve people sat together and formed the law. Law has a logic that it follows. Law is in the vaner language [Finnish language] laki and logic and means also a team such as footboll team. In team the law is created.” And it just so happens, that in the Boxström saga it is the asers of South Finland creating the laws and maintaining the social norms.

to collect the laws of the various families and tribes composing their nation

As Frisians consist of many tribes, it confirms this manuscript quote by Tony S.:

As our country was so great and extensive, we had many different names.

Secondly, laws and thus knowledge was kept in family lines. To my mind, that sounds just like Over de Lindens of Frisia, Wiliguts of Austro-Hungaria and finally, Boxströms and Raströms of Finland.

then they sat down in a circle

As above, but may also refer to the allting, which the Finns also had.

who might dare to desecrate its sanctity by quarrel or bloodshed

Sounds like holmgang is forbidden over there. The practise was not limited to Norsemen, for Britons practised it, and so did Finns too.

Accordingly this island, known as Forseti's land or Heligoland (holy land), was greatly respected by all the Northern nations, and even the boldest vikings refrained from raiding its shores

Likewise, in Finnish context Helsinki was founded upon Helsingeå and in Boxström saga Hel of South Finland was indeed a 'holy land' (hel = heliga, 'holy') where only the Finns of aser cultural background lived.

people declaring that it was only when the light shone clearly in the heavens that right could become apparent to all

Again, in Finnish context of the Boxström saga it is highlighted how whole of the culture radiates from the sun first to the ruling family of deciders and finally to the common people. With the royal family members having symbolical roles of sun and moon, the latter shining down the light from the first.

Overall, the idea of sacred island reminds of the Anglesey of the druids, who were also judges. In Finnish Boxström saga,

outside Helsinki. In this respect, story of Frisian holy land of Heligoland sounds not only feasible but also fits a larger European cultural pattern very well. Edited by FromFinland
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Overall, the idea of sacred island reminds of the Anglesey of the druids, who were also judges. In Finnish Boxström saga,

outside Helsinki. In this respect, story of Frisian holy land of Heligoland sounds not only feasible but also fits a larger European cultural pattern very well.

Yes the story of Ior Bock is very interesting , as is the story of the island of Saarimar and the meteor that fell bringing "the gods to earth " around 4000 to 7500 years ago , with the Kali (Kaali ) comet/meteor , it was this occurence that made the island of Saarimar famous , and Holy ,

it could have been this impact that caused the upheaval of the land which killed the mother after her speech, and the writtings about the event state that the great forests were ablaze , the explosion caused all the lights (ie fires in Frisia to go out ) and heroes had to be sent to go bravely towards the blast to obtain new fire , as this was thought to have been the landing of a God/Goddess the fire was thought to be Holy , and could be why the maidens job became to never let this fire collected in the lamps ever go out again.( at the place where the Gods came to Earth )

it has been said that the meteor split up into seperate parts , which caused craters (poss connection to the 7 hills) and that metal in the ore of the meteor , and the vast amounts of carbon available from the huge forests that were burnt ,enabled the occupants to put them together and make the first stronger metal weapons , so foundrys grew up around the craters , which were fenced off with enclosures .

and that the vast amounts of amber found in these areas came from the sap of these trees in those great forests which were burnt to the ground.

https://www.google.c...sm2E8Kna-bLs7AF

this occurence may link the Indian Kali Age , the picture of Adya Kali (Lyda ?), The Goddess of destruction and renewal ,and also the power of darkness ( the upheavals meant the sun did not shine for a long period .....the Dakshina of the vedas{not the Eddas } )... the book by Bal Ganghadar Tilak .... The Arctic Home in the Vedas .....and the visit to the Arctic by Kasyappa to see the place where the Gods came to earth ( and the cause of so much upheaval in the world )...............Possibly !

https://archive.org/stream/TheArcticHomeInTheVedas/TilakLokamanya-TheArcticHomeInTheVedas1903470P.#page/n0/mode/1up

Edited by Passing Time
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... Frisians commissioned twelve of their wisest men, the Asegeir, or elders ...

Just found out, this is a direct cultural reference to the Gladsheimr of the Æsir as described by authors of Wikipedia:

"Snorri
states in
Gylfaginning
that Glaðsheimr is a meeting hall containing thirteen high seats
where the male Æsir hold council, located in
avöllr
in Asgard, near the hall of
V
ingólf
where the Ásynjur goddesses gathered."

Thirteen seats - as opposed to twelve seats - may be a reference to the twelve Asegeir plus Forseti the chief law giver. Same number applies also in Finnish sources, whether it's the Boxström's aser ruler and his twelve sons, or general Kaleva and his twelve sons, as known from Kristfrid Ganander's records and the Anglo-Saxon Widsith (line 20).

Edited by FromFinland
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it could have been this impact that caused the upheaval of the land which killed the mother after her speech

To my mind it seems that there have been many - not just one - cataclysms in Europe of the past. Most people know of the Minoan eruption and fate of Pompeii. The Estonian craters seem to belong to this category also, as do the Tunguska and more recent Chelyabinsk events. As many others have noted here, people sometimes use same words for both natural and man-made causes. For example, it's not uncommon to read headlines about 'flooding' immigrants, 'storming' immigrants or Europe being 'on fire'. In Boxström saga the term Ragnarök is applied to three separate causes: cosmological, geological end of last ice-age and finally a man-made genocide. Just as much of the ancient iconography and legends seems to stem from biochemical sources, so does there seem to be a constant

.
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