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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 3]


Abramelin
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The megalithic culture covers mostly west and north-western Europe, and including the western Mediterranean. According to the OLB the Fryan territory stretched to - at least - Latvia.

What I am wondering about is why we here all about those burghs or citadels, but not a single word about cromlechs, dolmen, megalithic graves, and so on. And several were still being constructed well after 2194 BCE, and within the Fryan territory.

Each portion of the OLB has very direct intentions, of the writer in question. Generally telling a particular story of relevance.

No particular section stands out to me seemingly lacking mention of dolmens or why it would be referenced in the first place.

Adela is buried under a stone, maybe that is a standing stone you're looking for...

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2) Ottema (1873) "Geschiedkundige aanteekeningen en ophelderingen bij Thet Oera Linda Bok" (historic notes and clarifications; new translations by me)

[...]

(to be continued)

To finish this list:

[123/18] ÀND BÉIDE THRJA DÉGA

Alexander soon sent him back to the fleet, to sail further to Susiana and the mouth of the Tigris.

[125/12] DEMÉTRIUS

Antigonus mastered Phoenicia, to be able to build fleets; he sent his son Demetrius against Ptolomey, but Demetrius was defeated near Gaza (312 BCE). A general peace was established, but when Ptolomey took Cyprus (Salamis), Demetrius chased him away after a bloody seabattle (307 BCE); still he could not conquer Egypt (306 BCE); he then turned to Rhodos (305 BCE), attacked the city, whose inhabitants were allies of Ptolomey, for a long time in vain, which resulted him to be nicknamed Poliocretes (the besieger). (Dornseiffen, Grieken p.210)

[126/08] DEMÉTRIUS WÉRE WL ÀND VNSÉD.LIK

About Demetrius' immorality, see the long list of abominations, recorded by Plutarchus "Vita Demetrii" p.899.

[127/25] THA BERN DÉDE LIK.RA BIFÁLEN WARTH

Plutarchus Epilogus "Ad Vitam Antonii" p.957. Demetrius forced the most beautiful and chaste youth to end his life, to escape from being raped.

[130/17] THRJA MÔNATHA

Pytheas sailed in four months from Massilia to Thule (Norway). Lelewel Pytheas (1836) p.37.

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About Alewyn's theory that the Phaeacians were Fryans:

One major problem with the Phaeakians being Fryans is that the story with Ulysses mentions a King Alkinous. The story takes place around the beginning of the 12th century BCE. and at that time the Fryans had no kings yet, they had "Mothers"; it was Friso who started kingship around the beginning of the 3d century BCE.

Kingship like regal Kings yes but sea kings are mentioned, sekenning - so maybe Alkinous was a King, just not what you're expecting from it. What about witkenning?

Alkinous is actually descended from Poseidon, putting him in eligible sea king category.

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Van Gorp, I heard the news today and hope you and friends and family have not been injured in these latest attacks against freedom on your home soil.

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Standing by itself, the following could have been rejected as far-fetched, but in the context of the bigger picture, it might be significant indeed.

From Ottema (1876) "De Deventer Courant en het Oera Linda Boek" (Deventer Newspaper and the OLB), p.12

Translated by me:

The writing of Dela-Hellenia [OLB p.134-141]0 is one of the most remarkable parts. I named her Burgh-maiden or Mother of the Geartmen. That these Geartmen, named Patalians by the Greek writers, had a Mother (in dialects pronounced: Moer), appears from Quintus Curtius Rufus; Book IX, chapter 8, line 28: "Rex erat MOERIS" (their king was Moeris). For he read from the Greek historians: ΑΥΤΩΝ ΕΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣΕ ΜΟΕΡΙΣ, and he translated εβασιλευσε as rex erat (was king), not considering that βασιλευειν (to rule) can also be said of a woman. It is unclear from whom Curtius has this information; Ptolemy, Megasthenes, Nearchus or Hephaestion. Perhaps the latter noted, that the Patalians for important matters sought Moderis réd (advice, consent or command of the Mother), and assumed, that Moderis (or Moeris) was the name of the one (unknown to him) with the highest authority, which made him write ΜΟΕΡΙΣ as as if it were a name. This is how Curtis got his "rex Moeris", unknowingly and unconsciously saving for us the memory of a Mother of the Geartmen.

Original text:

Het geschrift van Dela-Hellenia is een van de merkwaardigste stukken. Ik noemde haar Burgtmaagd of Moeder bij de Geertmannen. Dat die Geertmannen, bij de Grieksche schrijvers Pattaliers genoemd, eene Moeder (verkort Moer) hadden, blijkt uit Curtius Lib.IX.c.8. Eorum rex erat MOERIS. Hij las namelijk bij zijne Grieksche berichtgevers: ΑΥΤΩΝ ΕΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣΕ ΜΟΕΡΙΣ, en vertaalde εβασιλευσε door rex erat, niet bevroedende dat βασιλευειν ook van eene vrouw kon gezegd worden. Het blijkt niet bepaald van wien Curtius dit bericht heeft, Ptolomeus, Megasthenes, Nearchus of Hephaestion. Misschien wel de laatste heeft opgemerkt, dat de Pattaliers bij alle belangrijke zaken Moderis rêd (raad, goedvinden of bevel) inwonnen, en gemeend, dat Moderis (Moeris) de naam was van die met het hoogste gezag bekleede (hem onbekende) persoon, en zoo heeft hij ΜΟΕΡΙΣ als eigennaam geschreven. Op die wijze is Curtius aan dien rex Moeris gekomen, waardoor hij onwetend en onbewust voor ons de herinnering aan eene Moeder bij de Geertmannen bewaard heeft.

Also interesting, just to remind us of the area and time that it is about, from "The Invasion of India by Alexander the Great" (1816):

gallery_137752_7_214413.jpg

Edited by Othar
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Demiurg, it is good to have a real ;-) historian here.

May I ask if you are M.A. or Dr. and what was your thesis or dissertation about?

Ofcourse.

I've got my masterdegree at KU Leuven with a thesis about late-medieval/16th century poor relief.

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A useful exercise is to make a list of claims made by the OLB that were not known in the 1870s. I'll start with the following.

It seems more useful to me to make a list of themes typical for 19th century mentality that have been exploited in the OLB.

A couple of themes that spring to mind spontaneously:

- The linguistic debate that Indo-European languages have one common source

- The debate within dutch protestantism about orthodox- and 'vrijzinnig' protestantism

- The scientific quest for Atlantis

- Scientific racism with three different races that represent stages of human development

- ...

Edited by Demiurg
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Ofcourse.

I've got my masterdegree at KU Leuven with a thesis about late-medieval/16th century poor relief.

Nice. I lived in beautiful Leuven for almost a year (catching up on philosophy and linguistics, and making use of the libraries) and I think I know your blog... :)

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It literally says nothing about the 19th century, things can merely be interpreted as such.

That it says little about older times is a bold statement.

What I mean is that if you read the passages about ancient times, most of the times it tells more about 19th century mentality than about those ancient times.

It's like when you read a chronicle which is written 100 years after the facts, it says most of the time at least as much about the time in which it is written, than about the ancient time. Historians have to filter the texts to get to the facts, but at the same time you can filter to keep the mentality of the time when its written.

My guess is that when you filter the OLB this way you end up without facts and a whole bunch of 19th century mentality history.

Dr. Arthur Hübner (1934) mainly saw many references to the French Revolution.

What you find much depends on what you are looking for.

Maybe, there are historic studies like this that are way to speculative.

(something like claiming that medieval nuns who fast often were in fact anorexic)

But I haven't read Hubner.

So, starting from sources, why can't one take the so-called 'fantastic' Frisian historiography and the OLB as sources and check the similarities and differences with each other and with other classical sources, like we have done much in this thread?

But the fantastic Frisian history and OLB must be considered as sources, but they are in the first place sources of the time in which they were written.

You are talking about written language, not spoken.

Before there were rules, before there was something you could type as a standard-language, (in Dutch before the 'Statenbijbel') their was no real difference between written and spoken language.

De Haan Hettema was a (much published) specialist in Old Frisian, including the dialects, and he concluded that the OLB language was the purest and oldest he could imagine.

That's odd.

German and Dutch syntax are also very similar. The rural dialects would all have 'evolved' (or degenerated) in the same way. These dialects are more likely to reflect the medieval language than these written sources. (I have read many too. Much of it is poetry, official or religious texts.) So Why did Verwijs have so much trouble translating it then?

What I said, you should consider that he might have lied.

I will come to the letters of Verwijs later.

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A quick reply (more later).

But I haven't read Hubner.

[...]

That's odd.

I recently bought the booklet by Hübner. I will try to scan the 41 pages into a PDF (without damaging it). It is worth the read (after getting used to the Gothic print letters).

And I will quote De Haan Hettema. (Although he praised the language for its purity, he did not believe OLB to be authentic, for different reasons than its language.)

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Van Gorp, I heard the news today and hope you and friends and family have not been injured in these latest attacks against freedom on your home soil.

Thanks for your concern Puzzler.

Me and direct relatives/friends are very fine. It were indeed attacks intended to harm our freedom, but i can't say i feel terrorised by it for a bit.

Me personally expect government and civilians not to react as 'they' or certain groups would like (cfr also some foreign 'advisors').

Maybe we could make an unexpected move by NOT sending more bombing jets to Syria as asked, and instead try to align the greatest local power on ground in his fight against extremism, just out of the box ;-)

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It seems more useful to me to make a list of themes typical for 19th century mentality that have been exploited in the OLB.

A couple of themes that spring to mind spontaneously:

- The linguistic debate that Indo-European languages have one common source

- The debate within dutch protestantism about orthodox- and 'vrijzinnig' protestantism

- The scientific quest for Atlantis

- Scientific racism with three different races that represent stages of human development

- ...

As we have already discussed, the OLB makes no mention whatsoever of the Indo-European languages (under that, or any other name). It mentions the Frisian language quite a lot, but why shouldn't it? If you think it references the Indo-European languages, please provide quotes.

Does Dutch Protestantism, in any form, advocate priestesses tending an eternal flame? And where in 19th century thought does this particular idea fit in, since it's absolutely central to the OLB?

The "scientific quest for Atlantis" began with Ignatius Donnelly's Atlantis: The Antediluvian World, published in 1882.

I'm not sure how you can describe the Frisian creation myth as "scientific racism" since it is, quite clearly, a mythological account, with no scientific elements at all. It does, however, relate very closely to the Triple Goddess myths of European Paganism.

I understand your points, Demiurg (or may I call you L.Z. - I've seen your blog), but, at the risk of appearing immodest, if you only graduated as a historian in 2013, then I have over 30 years more experience of studying the OLB than you do. Having said this, your comments and insights are very welcome here, as I know we all love a good debate.

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As we have already discussed, the OLB makes no mention whatsoever of the Indo-European languages (under that, or any other name). It mentions the Frisian language quite a lot, but why shouldn't it? If you think it references the Indo-European languages, please provide quotes.

I have done some explaining, which you haven't responded to yet.

http://www.unexplain...15#entry5797731

About the points I gave, these were meant for further exploration. With the Indo-European language-theme We already made a start.

And this theme...

Does Dutch Protestantism, in any form, advocate priestesses tending an eternal flame? And where in 19th century thought does this particular idea fit in, since it's absolutely central to the OLB?

...has alreay been covered in Goffe Jensma's book 'Gemaskerde God' and also a bit in this thread.

My suggestion is to start with the given list and than explore the themes one by one.

I think the angle to test what the OLB says about the time it has been written or (if you prefer) came out in the open, hasn't explored much on this forum.

The "scientific quest for Atlantis" began with Ignatius Donnelly's Atlantis: The Antediluvian World, published in 1882.

No, Charles-Étienne Brasseur de Bourbourg already started with it in 1862.

I understand your points, Demiurg (or may I call you L.Z. - I've seen your blog), but, at the risk of appearing immodest, if you only graduated as a historian in 2013, then I have over 30 years more experience of studying the OLB than you do. Having said this, your comments and insights are very welcome here, as I know we all love a good debate.

You assume that I started reading in/about the OLB after I graduated. And also you assume that more years of reading makes better understanding by definition. Both assumptions are wrong.

I also like a good debate and that doesn't mean I have to agree with others folks. With Othar I've already started debating, even if we probably disagree on many things. But the debate has to be honest and I have good reasons to doubt your honesty. If you have fake-sects, you created yourself, based on OLB-ideology, I really can't believe you really accept the authenticity of the OLB. (and besides that, it's kinda creepy in my opinion that a middleaged man pretend to be a young female priestess to attract young women for his Daughters of Frya-sect online)

Edited by Demiurg
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I have done some explaining, which you haven't responded to yet.

http://www.unexplain...15#entry5797731

About the points I gave, these were meant for further exploration. With the Indo-European language-theme We already made a start.

And this theme...

...has alreay been covered in Goffe Jensma's book 'Gemaskerde God' and also a bit in this thread.

My suggestion is to start with the given list and than explore the themes one by one.

I think the angle to test what the OLB says about the time it has been written or (if you prefer) came out in the open, hasn't explored much on this forum.

No, Charles-Étienne Brasseur de Bourbourg already started with it in 1862 in Grammaire de la langue quichée.

You assume that I started reading in/about the OLB after I graduated. And also you assume that more years of reading makes better understanding by definition. Both assumptions are wrong.

I also like a good debate and that doesn't mean I have to agree with others folks. With Othar I've already started debating, even if we probably disagree on many things. But the debate has to be honest and I have good reasons to doubt your honesty. If you have fake-sects, you created yourself, based on OLB-ideology, I really can't believe you really accept the authenticity of the OLB. (and besides that, it's kinda creepy in my opinion that a middleaged man pretend to be a young female priestess to attract young women for his Daughters of Frya-sect online)

I don't usually respond to ad hominem arguments, since they do not advance the debate in any way, but if you are referring to the publicity campaign for my second book, Rites and Rituals of Traditional Witchcraft (2001), conducted online from 2002 to 2005, you should get your facts straight. In particular, I have never pretended to be anyone other than myself.

Furthermore, as I have a feeling you already know (from about 10:19am GMT this morning, to be precise) - I have been running a Pagan group here in my home town since the 1980s, and the OLB plays a large role in this. We have public meetings every week, and if you're ever in England, you're welcome to attend. Our current membership, incidentally, stands at more than 700.

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I have never pretended to be anyone other than myself. ...

We have public meetings every week ...

Our current membership, incidentally, stands at more than 700.

Just for the record (I am not interested in further discussing this): I do not believe any of these claims.

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... the booklet by Hübner.

... De Haan Hettema.

PDF's of both sources can now be found here:

1935 Hübner (German): http://fryskednis.blogspot.de/2016/03/pdf-herman-wirth-und-die-ura-linda.html

1871 De Haan Hettema (Dutch): http://fryskednis.blogspot.de/2016/03/pdf-opinion-de-haan-hettema-1871.html

Relevant part of the second text (not yet translated):

Het stuk is in de Friesche Taal geschreven; eene onderscheiding tusschen oud-Friesch en Land- of Boere Friesch ken ik niet. Ik kan alleen eene oudere en nieuwere spelling van die taal, want de uitspraak van het Friesch is nagenoeg nog dezelfde als voor eenige eeuwen, hetgeen dan ook de wereldberoemde taalkenner de Deen Professor R. Rask in zijne Friesche spraakleer heeft aangetoond, door ons de klanken van het Friesch in de Hss. voorkomende, te geven, zoo als die taalkundig behooren uitgesproken te worden, en die thans nog nagenoeg dezelfde zijn.

Wat nu de spelling in dit stuk voorkomende betreft, deze is, in mijn oog, veel meer overeenkomstig de oudere en zeer regelmatig, en veel beter en regelmatiger, dan van hen, die thans de taal schrijven; zoodat het te wenschen ware, dat men in de hoofdzaak die spelling overnam, dan zoude er meer eenheid in die spelling komen en het oorspronkelijke van de taal, beter dan nu, bewaard blijven. Thans schrijft men het met Hollandsche klanken, en in den hedendaagschen Hollandschen schrijftrant. Doch dit is niet te verwonderen. Geen der latere schrijvers in die taal, Gijsbert Japiks en de Gebroeders Halbertsma niet uitgezonderd, hebben zich volstrekt niet om de spelling van het in de Hss. voorkomend Friesch bekommerd. Alleen T. R. Dijkstra en voornamelijk de te vroeg ontslapen, H. S. Sijtstra waren het, die het spoor der ouden zoo veel mogelijk trachtten te volgen, en de waarde van die spelling niet uit het oog verloren.

Bovendien vinden wij reeds in onze photografiën eenige thans niet algemeen meer bekende woorden, die in het overige van dit geschrift wel zullen voorkomen en daardoor onze Friesche Woordenschat zouden kunnen aanvullen.

Ik beschouw het dus in de eerste plaats van belang om dit stuk in den Frieschen tekst door den druk bekend te maken; maar ook in de tweede plaats, — als men volgens het verslag den inhoud aanneemt, die zoo wel uit een Godsdienstig, als uit een Geschiedkundig oogpunt niet van belang ontbloot schijnt te zijn, — dat er dan ook eene Hollandsche vertaling bijgevoegd worde, om ook niet-Friezen met diens inhoud bekend te maken.

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http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/unexpected-and-gruesome-battle-1250-bc-involved-4000-men-across-northern-020781

Unexpected and gruesome battle 1250BC involved 4000 men across Northern Europe.

What an awesome find for archaeology and the history of ancient Europe. A battle that might be remembered.

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Unexpected and gruesome battle 1250BC involved 4000 men across Northern Europe.

Great find. Relevant evidence for us may be (or have been) unearthed. I will investigate this further.

This points to a warrior class and participation in war across Europe—previously unheard of, Science says. There are historical descriptions of Bronze Age epic battles from the Near East and Greece, but there has been little archaeological evidence found of any large-scale battles. And there are of course no written records from Northern Europe from the time.

Haha!

Edited by Othar
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... if you read the passages about ancient times, most of the times it tells more about 19th century mentality than about those ancient times.

Since we know so little about ancient mentality, how can we know? Ancient mentality may in fact have been very different from what most of us imagine. It may be much more similar to ours in some important ways. Again I refer to Hübner, who mostly saw similarities to the times of the French Revolution.

But the fantastic Frisian history and OLB must be considered as sources, but they are in the first place sources of the time in which they were written.

Who decides what they are in the first, second and third place? Even if they say something about ancient times only in the third place, they remain something that can (and should) be investigated.

Before there were rules, before there was something you could type as a standard-language, (in Dutch before the 'Statenbijbel') their was no real difference between written and spoken language.

There were also many more dialects than there are now. The language of the OLB could have been one of them and it could indeed be ancient.

What I said, you should consider that he might have lied.

Trying to make the government pay for the purchase and research of something that you know to be fake, is not just "lying", it is fraud. He was a young scholar with a family, living in Friesland and ambitious to make promotion (which he later did). For this hoax theory to work, he must have been insane (like many others who would have had to be involved). Even if he was confident that they would not find out by themselves, Over de Linden was known to sometimes drink to much and talk about things he should not. He could have put Verwijs in the risk of being excluded from any serious career, or even of being jailed for fraud.

Edited by Othar
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Frisiabones = FRYAS.BERN (children of Frya)?

(Note: BERN is also spelled BÀRN)

wiki:

The Frisiavones (also Frisævones or Frisiabones) were a tribe living near the northern border of Roman Gaul possibly related to the nearby Frisii, who in turn are traditionally considered to be ancestors of modern Frisians. There is very little known about them, but they appear to have resided in the area of modern southern Netherlands, possibly in two distinct areas, one in the islands of the river deltas of Holland, and one to the south of it.

In the OLB, a split is described between the followers of Friso and the more traditional Fryas, who often referred to themselves as Fryasbern. Bern equates with born (Dutch: (ge-)boren), which can easily shift to or sound like bon (in Roman ears).

Are the Frisiavones or -bones the last known trace (by name) of the children of Frya?

21120.jpg

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Frisiabones = FRYAS.BERN (children of Frya)?

(Note: BERN is also spelled BÀRN)

I agree that FRYAS.BERN might very well mean 'children of Frya'. I do not see any connection to 'Frisiabones', though. The one refers to Frya; the other appears to refer to Friso.

Perchance there was a rule of grammar to derive the name of a location from the name of a person? Frya -> Fri-s-ia or Fri-sia?

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Some interesting fragments to consider, from a letter by Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema (June 11, 1872):

In your translation I read: "Oh dear, never let the eyes of a monk gaze upon this script, they speak sweet words, but... etc."

From this fear of monks I dare conclude, that they had already captured many of our old manuscripts. I also dare believe that the Over de Lindens have not been the only ones, who possessed the book of Adela Follistar. When I follow the history of the manuscript, I dare assume that the Romans, the Phoenicians, the Greeks and all Mediterranean peoples learned the letterscript from us.

[...]

That the monks, who have invented their own letterscript, stifled ours to make it unreadable, lies in their nature. But who knows how many Copies of the book of Adela's Folstar remain here and elsewhere with kings or in Rome. Now that more than a thousand years have passed, they may have introduced the walking script as capitals, because they are similar to our capitals.

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Two worst mistakes in first OLB publication

In the first publication of the Oera Linda Book (1872 and 1876), translator Dr. Ottema made two big mistakes - in my opinion -, that were copied by Sandbach in his English edition (1876).

These mistakes are particularly curious, since the owner of the manuscript, Cornelis Over de Linden tried to prevent them in the correspondence they had previous to the publication.

1. Translation of "OD" as "hate"

2. Manipulation of the alphabet page

Continue reading here

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I do not recall that the OLB mentions any other copies.

There may have been other histories / diaries written by the OLB Frisians, but if so they were lost during the ages. I do consider it likely, though, that somewhere on (in) the Earth or in space there are copies of most of the significant books and texts written by the human species during the past four thousand years; as well as recordings of other significant cultural efforts.

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