Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 3]

[Ell]

Interesting, Othar. I have read your arguments re 'od' and I am impressed.

Once they were ripe,

they got dreams of fruits and nuts (or: pleasure and delight).

Wralda's od (life force) entered them.

I would interpret this as

Once they were ripe,

they got dreams of having children.

Wralda's od (life force) entered them.

I also wonder whether 'od' might be translated as 'purpose'.

I also recall that Balder was killed by Hodr.

[Ell]

Ottema

An animosity that will not end until the people of Finda and Lyda will be exterminated, and the people of Frya at the final victory will remain and inherit and possess the whole earth.

(See Othar's website.)

This conclusion by Ottema is very wrong indeed. This never was the purpose of the creation of mankind. If it was, Finda and Lyda would never have been created. The creation of Frya would have sufficed.

The OLB does mention the purpose of the creation of the three females: to breed - in a thousands of years lasting process - a superhuman being (species, or rather a variety) in whom the three different, separate divine characteristics of the three females would be joined and optimally effective. Ottema therefore ought to have known better.

[The Puzzler]

I agree that FRYAS.BERN might very well mean 'children of Frya'. I do not see any connection to 'Frisiabones', though. The one refers to Frya; the other appears to refer to Friso.

Perchance there was a rule of grammar to derive the name of a location from the name of a person? Frya -> Fri-s-ia or Fri-sia?

Frisiabones or Frisiavones seems to indicate friends of Frisians (proper), with Latin -vones meaning friend of. I agree, hard to see FRYAS.BERN being same.

[Abramelin]

Kingship like regal Kings yes but sea kings are mentioned, sekenning - so maybe Alkinous was a King, just not what you're expecting from it. What about witkenning?

Alkinous is actually descended from Poseidon, putting him in eligible sea king category.

I think you should read the Odyssey by yourself. Then you will know this Alcinous wasn't just a 'seaking', and his name meant something like "Mighty Mind".

Another thing.

According to Ptolomy:

Above the Cimbrian peninsula there are three other islands which are called the Alociae islands

http://penelope.uchi.../2/10/text.html

What does Alcinous mean? And what does Alociae mean?

According to Wikipedia, Alcinous means something like 'mighty mind'. As far as I know, the 'nous' part stands for 'mind', so that would mean that 'alci-' stands for 'mighty'.

-inous - Celtic "inis"... island?

Alociae nesos .... Mighty Islands?

nesos - Greek: island, peninsula, continent

nes - Dutch: landtong, voorgebergte. Etym. verwant met neus.

nes - English: peninsula, promontory. Etym. related to 'nose'

==

Phaeos = GR: dark, grey.

The Phaeacian ships and sails are said to be black. I also read that maybe the Phaeacians themselves were dark/black.

Btw., Homerus (Odyssey) tells us that the Phoenicians also sailed in black ships:

Book XV, 415: “There came Phoenician men, famous sea farers, gnawers at other men's goods, with countless pretty things stored in their black ship”. (Transl. R. Lattimore).

(The Dutch translation by Aegidius Timmerman that I have doesn't give the color of the Phoenician ship, but it is said to be one of the better - if not best - translations into Dutch)

But I also read something else in book XV, if I have to go by the Dutch translation: maybe another mentioning of Scheria, the land of the Phaeacians. They are not called by name, but the description of that land, a beautiful island called "Syria", looks very similar to Scheria. This island, Syria, lies north of Ortygia, wherever that may be; this Syria lies near the "turning point of the sun". This "turning point of the sun" would be either the summer solstice on June 22 in the northern hemisphere or the winter solstice on December 22). 'Solstice' comes from Latin 'sol sistere' = to cause the sun to stand still.

The Island of Syria has very fertile soil, is not densily populated, has lots of cows and sheep/goats, wheat and wine. The people are never hungry, have no diseases, and so on. It has two cities, like everything there comes in two's. Apparently the two cities were ruled by the father of Eumaeus, the shepherd with whom Odysseus is talking after the latter had returned in his homeland, the shepherd who has no idea he is talking with Odysseus. Eumaeus' father is, in his turn, "the son of Ormenus, Ktésius, gods-alike." However, as far as I know, Eumaeus doesn't give us the name of his father.

The island is also often visited by Phoenician sailors/traders, and their ships are said to be very fast.

=

The island of the Phaeacians, Scheria, is being described as having rocky coasts. Read about the breaking of the surf on the shores of the Phaeacian Island (Odyssey, book V, 400-442). Rocky island-coasts in the North Sea? That could only have been Hel(i)goland. However, in the Mediterranean there are numerous islands with rocky coasts.

Back to the Alocean Islands:

No modern map of Denmark shows any "Alocian islands" north of Jutland. Maybe they submerged during the many floods that hit Denmark through the ages.

There is another possible location for these Alocian islands AND 'rocky island-coasts' in the North Sea:

"The Alocian islands are said either to be the deep southern Norwegian fjords and fells, which give the impression of being islands, or even the islands of Helgeland off the coast of northern Norway".

From:

Analecta Romana Instituti Danici

Supplementum XXXIX

Beyond the Roman Frontier - Roman Influences on the Northern Barbaricum

Edited by Thomas Grane

Edizioni Quasar, Roma MMVII

Page 14 & 15:

Ptolemaios [85-165 CE]

Whereas Tacitus concentrated on ethnography,

Klaudios Ptolemaios from Alexandria solely

concentrated on geography. He lived from c. AD

85-165, and wrote works on astronomy, astrology,

epistemology and geography. His Guide to

Geography, in eight

books, describes how to make regional and

world maps based on latitude and longitude;

this Guide had a crucial influence on the cartography

of later times. Although his chapter

on Germania shows an enormous increase in

knowledge of the rivers and places of this area,

he provides little new information on the North

(Fig. 5 & Frontispiece).48 On the contrary, a

place like the Saevo Mountain seems to have

vanished. He gives the coordinates of the Cimbrian

Peninsula, which is Jutland with Schleswig-

Holstein, as well as centre coordinates for

three groups of islands, the Saxon, the Alocian

and the Skandian, respectively west, north and

east of Jutland. East of the Skandian island lies

the larger island of Skandia, which is given four

coordinates.49 This island supposedly lies more

or less above the mouth of the River Vistula.

Furthermore, he gives the names of seven tribes

living on the Cimbrian Peninsula, of which the

northernmost is the Cimbri.50 On Skandia there

are seven tribes as well:

In the west the island is inhabited by the Chaideinoi,

in the east by the Phauonai and the Phiraisoi, in

the north by the Phinnoi, in the south by the Goutai

and the Daukiones, in the middle by the Leuonoi.

Ptolemaios: 2.11.16

Following Ptolemaios’ guidelines, Jutland

erroneously “leans” c. 45 degrees to the east. In

addition, some think that the island of Funen

was included with Jutland, because coming

from the north, travellers might easily be led

to think that Funen was a part of Jutland.51 As

was the case with Scatinavia, Skandia is identified

with Scania and the Swedish peninsula,

except that the island has been placed a little

too far to the east.52 The “smaller” Skandian

islands therefore have been identified as Zealand,

Langeland and Lolland,53 or as Zealand,

Lolland and Falster,54 Zealand, Funen and Lolland,

55 or more cautiously simply as the Danish

islands.56 The Saxon islands are thought

to be the North Friesian Wadden Sea islands,

while the Alocian islands are said either to be

the deep southern Norwegian fjords and fells,

which give the impression of being islands,57 or

even the islands of Helgeland off the coast of

northern Norway.58

.

=

Witkenning? Well, we know about Vitk(en)ings, and we know about Van den Bergh's Vitho aka Jutho, son of Friso, the one who went to Denmark.

Metathesis: VIT <> IVT. There you go! From Vit/Witkening to Jut-kenning or King of the Juts in a jiffy.

.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

http://www.ancient-o...northern-020781

Unexpected and gruesome battle 1250BC involved 4000 men across Northern Europe.

What an awesome find for archaeology and the history of ancient Europe. A battle that might be remembered.

This find would have made Jürgen Spanuth very happy. But for the OLB it won't be of any help, because absolutely nothing of that period is mentioned in the OLB. Only that there had been a war in Troy, and that Ulysses visited the North Sea. And you will remember that a LOT was going on around the start of the 12 century BCE: climate changes for the worse, people migrating, wars everywhere in Europe, and so on.

[Ell]

I wrote about the Phaeacians in a recent update of my Smashwords e-book Aeneid Liber Sextus. In my opinion - conclusion - Odysseus, while asleep, was brought home by a high technology ship of the Underworld Phaeacians; i.e. by the pitch black people from the realm of the dead, a huge space habitat.

As for 'sekenning', might it perchance refer not to a king (kung), but instead to someone with knowledge (kenning) of the sea? I.e. a navigator.

In Scandinavian sagae a 'kenning' is a poetical concept that refers to another concept. For example, the kenning 'whale road' = the sea.

[Demiurg]

Since we know so little about ancient mentality, how can we know? Ancient mentality may in fact have been very different from what most of us imagine.

That's not what I meant. I'm not talking about ancient mentality.

The OLB is supposed to describe events from ancient times. But while it does, it says a lot about 19th century mentality.

There were also many more dialects than there are now. The language of the OLB could have been one of them and it could indeed be ancient.

We know so much about late medieval dutch, also about the regional differences, that it's inconceivable that a regional variation that is so different from the others, comes to us in just one source. Show me another source with the same kind of linguistic charactiristics with the OLB and we have something to talk about.

Trying to make the government pay for the purchase and research of something that you know to be fake, is not just "lying", it is fraud. He was a young scholar with a family, living in Friesland and ambitious to make promotion (which he later did).

Scientific fraud is from all times. It happens.

For this hoax theory to work, he must have been insane (like many others who would have had to be involved). Even if he was confident that they would not find out by themselves, Over de Linden was known to sometimes drink to much and talk about things he should not. He could have put Verwijs in the risk of being excluded from any serious career, or even of being jailed for fraud.

You look at this whole thing from the wrong angle. The search for the writers and the questions how and why only start after internal and external historical criticism proofs the OLB to be a 19th century product. We can, at least after the evidences Philippus Breuker added to the case, be sure Verwijs was involved. So explaining why he wrotes the things he did about it are not meant to prove the OLB is a hoax. It's meant to explain why Verwijs did what he did. Was he stupid and risky? He probably was. That's not hard to believe, people do risky things all the time.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Demiurg

[The Puzzler]

Abe, it's me. I don't need to reread Odyssey but maybe you do.

Your comments about Scheria and the land of Phaeacians in the North Sea are nonsense.

This is because This island is 18 days sail back to Ithaca direction, home.

Only Ogygia is. It's 9 days float from Charybdis but 19 days sail back to Scheria.

I know others have the Phaeacians concept around the North Sea but it doesn't work at all really. The closest I'd put it is maybe Lisbon or down to the Pillars. Maybe like Tartessos.

[The Puzzler]

This find would have made Jürgen Spanuth very happy. But for the OLB it won't be of any help, because absolutely nothing of that period is mentioned in the OLB. Only that there had been a war in Troy, and that Ulysses visited the North Sea. And you will remember that a LOT was going on around the start of the 12 century BCE: climate changes for the worse, people migrating, wars everywhere in Europe, and so on.

Wars everywhere in Europe? What are you referring to here exactly?

No, it may not be mentioned in the OLB but it's interesting none the less, that it occurs around the same time as the Trojan War.

[The Puzzler]

I wrote about the Phaeacians in a recent update of my Smashwords e-book Aeneid Liber Sextus. In my opinion - conclusion - Odysseus, while asleep, was brought home by a high technology ship of the Underworld Phaeacians; i.e. by the pitch black people from the realm of the dead, a huge space habitat.

As for 'sekenning', might it perchance refer not to a king (kung), but instead to someone with knowledge (kenning) of the sea? I.e. a navigator.

In Scandinavian sagae a 'kenning' is a poetical concept that refers to another concept. For example, the kenning 'whale road' = the sea.

Yes, I think kening/kenning is reference to that in these words. Not king. My response to Abe becomes redundant, so lucky it was anyway, as said, the point is mute since Scheria is not in the North Sea. I personally don't think the Phaeacians are Fryans. They seem like very early Phoenician types in the west around the Pillars.

[Ott]

OLB ... says a lot about 19th century mentality.

There are people who believe that the Bible says a lot about our present time.

There are people who read messages in the number plates of passing cars.

Once more: Dr. Hübner mainly saw references in the OLB to the mentality of late 18th century French revolutionaries.

... it's inconceivable that a regional variation that is so different from the others, comes to us in just one source.

The only so-called linguistic study of the OLB is the pamphlet by Beckering Vinckers (1876). Have you read it and can you summarise his arguments? They are bogus, IMO. He was a teacher English who would later translate a book about linguistics. Other, more qualified specialists came to a very different conclusion, namely that the OLB language could very well be authentic old Frisian. To name a few, Old Frisian expert De Haan Hettema, classicist Dr. Ottema and Prof. Dr. Maußer (Germanic, Old Nordic and Indo-Germanic philologist).

Scientific fraud is from all times. It happens.

He could not gain from it, only loose. Have you read "De namen der vrouw bij den Germaan" (the Germanic words for 'woman') 1865, by him. It should be full of links to OLB, but it's not and nor is any of his other work.

You look at this whole thing from the wrong angle.

I see. And you look at it from the right angle, I suppose?

[FromFinland]

Earlier I wrote on Wodin, or Odin. I have thought more deeply on the matter and found out two more parallels between the sources:

# 9:

Mâgy

(or

Gylfa

) has a thematic connection to east and Finns, and likewise in

Hervarar saga

Gylfa's daughter is married to king of Russia

Sigrlami

, who in turn is son of

Odin

in some versions of the

Hervarar saga

. A king of Russia in pre-Rurikid timeframe must be of Finnic cultural period, though foreign Germanic elements in society

are not neccessarily entirely excluded

. This all supports the overall eastern theme of the Scandinavian

M

â

gy,

as presented in the

Oera Linda

narrative.

# 10:

as per the

Heimskringla's Ynglinga Saga's

chapter five

, Odin fled the influence of 'Roman chiefs'. Compare this to the

Oera Linda book's

Roman priests who "wish to assume the sole government of the world", to the antagonism between the Finnish Aesir and Roman Catholics of the

Boxström saga

and finally to the antagonism between Germanic peoples and Catholic Christians as echoed in

Irminsaga

of the Wiligut family (for example see

Flowers 2001

, 94, 96).

Edited March 28, 2016 by FromFinland

[Ott]

"De namen der vrouw bij den Germaan" (the Germanic words for 'woman') 1865, by [Dr. Eelco Verwijs].

New uploaded PDF here: https://www.scribd.com/doc/306157942/De-Namen-der-Vrouw-bij-den-Germaan-1865

[Ott]

Was he stupid and risky? He probably was.

More homework for you.

"Bijlagen" contains many letters by Verwijs.

It will make you want to judge more carefully.

PDF: Boeles. P.C.J.A., - De houding van dr Eelco Verwijs ten opzichte van het O.L.B. en het Friesch Genootschap. - De Vrije Fries XXX, 1930, pp. 1-52.

[Ell]

There are people who believe that the Bible says a lot about our present time.

There are people who read messages in the number plates of passing cars.

Once more: Dr. Hübner mainly saw references in the OLB to the mentality of late 18th century French revolutionaries.

Quite.

I am rather unimpressed by people who project their own 19th century prejudices onto a thousands of years old text.

[FromFinland]

In my earlier posts, I have mostly highlighted the thematic similarities between the Dutch Oera Linda book of the Over de Linden family and the Finnish Väinämöinen's mythology and Bock saga, both of the Boxström family. I have here a short snippet about the Irminsaga of the Austro-Hungarian Wiligut family, which we'll compare to other sources. I recommend everyone interested on the topic to look for the Stephen Flowers' excellent English language book from 2001, as it costs only 9 dollars!

We'll start with a short citation from Adolf Schleipfer, writing in Irminsul 1982:

Of course, proof of the authenticity – in the academic sense – of the Wiligut-traditions will hardly be found, as this uncertainty lies in the nature of the material and so there will certainly be a tug-of-war over these traditions similar to that surrounding the Ura-Linda Chronik. (Flowers 2001, 126.)

As I consider mr. Schleipfer's take on matter to be somewhat pessimistic, we'll take a comparative look on the material at hand. Let's begin with a SS document from 17th day of June 1936, marked read by mr. Himmler. Text deals with the evolution of human species and is presented as of very mythical nature. I concentrate on themes more familiar to our previous studies:

The secret tradition of the Wiligotis-clan Asa-Uanas is called "Irminsaga" and it provides the following description of the seven epochs.

This saga was recorded on seven Runo-wooden tablets (of oak) in ancient Aryan linear script supplemented by images. These were, however, destroyed along with other family documents of similar nature in 1848 when three houses belonging to the military retiree K. M. Wiligut were burned. (These houses in Ofen were being defended from Hungarian rebels by General Henzi, who was killed in the effort.)

K. Wiligut could therefore only hand these traditions down orally to his descendants (always the oldest son), so that, for example, the question is unresolved as to how the traditions could have been succesfully transmitted from one human epoch to another.

[...]

In this [4th] epoch comes about breat knowledge of astrology, which has been transmitted to us through the secret sciences. There were 2 main races: red-skins and moors …

Besides these there were those with white hair and red eyes – albinos – who had great longevity, but who were not very numerous. They are said to have invented pictography, and together with the red-skins to have originated the Runo-script. But all three main races fiercely fought against the ”beast-men” – who mainly mated with the moors.

[...]

5TH HUMAN EPOCH:

The period of transition from the 4th to the 5th epoch lasted for millenia!

Few humans survived despite the possibilities for fleeing into the interior spaces of earth – everywhere where the earth held ”fast,” ostensibly only one couple remained … And since they were together, cut off from any news, they thought they were the only ones …

But from the moon [Kleid] there descended once more human beings with their enormous remnants (see Jacob's ladder!). They called themselves Asa and had a significantly longer life-span than the Uana. And they oppressed the Uana and robbed them of their women, because they had saved none of their own. The earth once more turned green, the sky blue, the water bright, and Got-Hari's eye – the sun – one more shone through the clouds and Ka-Os diminished …

And now gradually they [Aesir and Vanir] began not having to kill each other in order to eat, because there were also animals, plants and moss ... And the "wise" once more dispensed their "wisdom" and organised the clans ... And the Asa established "Eden" with the Uana in Asgard and the "Asa" no longer fought the "Uana", for Freyr and Faja became one and became Ymir and Frey and Fraya ... And the earth swung out and the Asa-Uana children migrated out upon the Atta-lant and wrote their history and even gave the word to the "wise in support", so that they would never forget, how Got created humanity ..."

And the ”wise” spoke and ”Weiskuning's” advisor spoke to the folk of ”Teut” – the great one, who spoke the Runo – the word from Got, and announced when the run of terrestrial Got-man would be completed: Yet to come are the 6th and 7th holy humanity …

And they returned together homeward to the eye of Gôt, to the Su(on), which is eternal from Ur through Ru to Ur, as the history of humanity proves! Got grant it!

FOR THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE TRADITION:

Note: The last part – the 5th epoch – is almost word for word an identical respresentation of an oral report taken from the retired military officer K. Wiligut who died in his 89th year (1883). (Flowers 2001, 98-102.)

Let's tear this citation apart part by part:

The

[1]

secret tradition of the Wiligotis-clan

[2]

Asa-Uanas is called "Irminsaga" and it provides the following description of the

[3]

seven epochs.

# 1: The Väinämöinen's mythology of Boxström tradition is likewise of allegedly secretive type. As per the story, it was never publicly told as complete story outside the Aesir family in heathen times, though parts of it came to the wider spread and were common to the rest of the Nordic culture.

# 2: The Aesir-Vanir family is a common Nordic theme, as seen in Heimskringla, Väinämöinen's mythology and others sources.

# 3: This reminds of the Väinämöinen's mythology that has about 6 to 9 time periods, depending on the calculation method (paradise: creation of mountains, arrival of tropical plants, arrival of eel, arrival of frogs, arrival of apes, arrival of humans; start of ice age or first ragnarök; time after the end ice age or second ragnarök; time after third ragnarök). Moreover, the Norse mythology of Prose and Poetic Eddas separates likewise time to pre- and post-Ragnarökian times. One could also divide time by birth of Ask and Embla, or Ginnungagap.

K. Wiligut could therefore only hand these traditions down orally to his descendants (

[4]

always the oldest son), so that, for example, the question is unresolved as to how the traditions could have been succesfully transmitted from one human epoch to another.

# 4: Just as officer and magnate Franz Karl Wiligut handed the story down to his oldest son Karl Maria Wiligut, who was likewise a military officer, so did sea captain Knut Victor Boxström hand down his family tradition to to his eldest son Rafael Boxström, who was killed while serving as member of White Guard. Whereas Väinämöinen's mythology is mentioned as never having been written down in olden days times, unlike Oera Linda tradition and Irminsaga, I personally suspect it was, for it mentions three separate writing methods (capitals, longhand and runes) in heathen context.

In this

[4th]

epoch comes about breat knowledge of

[5

] astrology, which has been transmitted to us through the secret sciences.

[6]

There were 2 main races: red-skins and moors …

Besides these there were those with white hair and red eyes – albinos –

[7]

who had great longevity,

[8]

but who were not very numerous.

[9]

They are said to have invented pictography, and together with the red-skins to have originated the Runo-script. But all three main races fiercely fought against the

[10]

”beast-men” – who mainly mated with the moors.

# 5: astrology as such and by that name is also mentioned in the Väinämöinen's mythology, with the word's etymology being given as 'Aesir-faith-logi' (Bock 1996, 51-52).

# 6: here we have the three races, just as Oera Linda has three races of people. A 'moor' can mean both a person of an Arabic or African race. In Väinämöinen's mythology part of the Bock saga there are in addition to the three Nordic white races 10 different tropical races, latter of which "piiking", "narkassul" and "sulttaani" are mentioned explicitly by name as living closest to the Finnic race (Bock 1996, 56-57). Whereas Irminsaga here has the origins of the white race in albinism, the Väinämöinen's mythology puts the origins of the Nordic white race at isolation from rest of the human race, hinting at similar origins.

# 7: Greek and Roman authors have the Nordic Hyperboreans as of long-lasting age.

# 8: As is evindent by a look at the world today and is seen also thematically in the amount of the tropical races at point six above.

# 9: Again, here have the whites invent the writing systems, just as in the Oera Linda book and Väinämöinen's mythology. Wheras in Oera Linda book also the yellow Finda's people do have a writing system, so here are the runes invented together with the non-white 'red-skins'.

# 10: Likewise, Heimskringla has the following to tell on the Nordic lands, my bolding:

In Swithiod are many great domains, and many races of men, and many kinds of languages. There are giants, and there are dwarfs, and

there are also blue men, and there are any kinds of stranger creatures

. There are huge wild beasts, and dreadful dragons.

We continue with the source text:

The period of transition from the 4th to the 5th epoch

[11]

lasted for millenia!

Few humans survived despite the possibilities for

[12]

fleeing into the interior spaces of earth – everywhere where the earth held ”fast,” ostensibly

[13]

only one couple remained … And since they were together,

[14]

cut off from any news, they thought they were the only ones

# 11: not only do we find such thousand year transition periods from late Antiquity Christianity and Zoroastrianism, the Aesir of the Väinämöinen's mythology dwelled in the Baltic island of Gotland for millenia in the time period between the second ragnarök and settlement of Finnish coast (Bock 1996, 63). Oera Linda book describes time in thousand year units, or 'spokes of Jol'.

# 12: in the Väinämöinen's mythology the Aesir survive by sending Rafael and Sara, their children (12 sons, 7 daughters) along with their best friends, to hide in the Lummelunda cave of Gotland island, so as not to perish in the receding of the ice masses at the end of the last ice age, or 'second ragnarök' (Bock 1996, 63).

# 13: this is the international story of Noah, Gylfaginning story of giants Bergelmir plus his wife, and the Rafael and Sara above, all fleeing either the flood waters or water in ice form. Such floods, if taken literally as geological phenomena, are mentioned also in the Oera Linda book.

# 14: compare this to the end of ice age in the Väinämöinen's mythology:

[the Nordic white] inhabitants of Uudenmaa had became a folk, of which the rest of the world was unaware. (Bock 1996, 63, my translation)

We continue with the source text:

[15]

But from the moon [Kleid] there descended once more human beings with their enormous remnants (see Jacob's ladder!). They called themselves Asa and had a significantly longer life-span than the Uana. And they oppressed the Uana and

[16]

robbed them of their women, because they had saved none of their own.

[17]

The earth once more turned green, the sky blue, the water bright, and

[18]

Got-Hari's eye – the sun – one more shone through the clouds and Ka-Os diminished …

# 15: while this theme of gods arriving from the sky is common to many other mythologies, I cannot but wonder if this is in reality a metaphora or a kenning of some sort, of which meaning is lost to us.

# 16: Aesir men taking Vanir women is an ancient theme also seen in the Nordic sources, Oera Linda book and Väinämöinen's mythology, as I have previously shown here in this forum thread.

# 17: this is a recollection of the post-Ragnarökian times as of the Völuspá and as Väinämöinen's mythology describes the times following the end of the last ice age:

It's told that of these first was Öriket ['island kingdom'], a time of fishing culture. When land turned into green again, began the Ängriket ['meadow kingdom], time of farming culture. When rivers began to flow, became the Åriket ['river kingdom], when for example Åland and Åbo were inhabited. (Bock 1996, 64, my translation)

# 18: that sun is called Got-Hari's – or 'God-Lord's' – eye is similar to Väinämöinen's mythology, where sun is called Oden. Moreover, just as there is one sun in the sky, Odin of Völuspá is known to have been one-eyed and is called Harri or Herjan, that is 'lord' or 'sir'.

And now gradually they [Aesir and Vanir] began not having to kill each other in order to eat, because there were also animals, plants and moss ... And the "wise" once more dispensed their "wisdom" and organised the clans ... And the Asa established "Eden" with the Uana in Asgard and the "Asa" no longer fought the "Uana", for Freyr and Faja became one and became Ymir and Frey and Fraya ...

[19]

And the earth swung out and

[20]

the Asa-Uana children migrated out upon the Atta-lant and wrote their history and

[21]

even gave the word to the "wise” in support, so that they would

[22]

never forget, how Got created humanity ..."

# 19: compare to our planet's axial tilt as told in Väinämöinen's mythology:

In the paradise was a tropical climate. There were leaf trees, palmer, and mammoths, elfenben.

But suddenly the world ”snapped”, went out of it's place.

Then the whole galaxy system axis tilted and at the same time

planet earth's axis tilted

: old north pole moved out of it's place and new north pole became in existence. (Bock 1996, 55, my translation)

# 20: here we have the ”Aldland” and ”Atland” of Oera Linda book, ”allt land is” of Väinämöinen's mythology and ”Atlantis” of Timaeus and Critias. The sequence matches the Väinämöinen's mythology one best, where likewise the earth tilts first, resulting in the subsequent age of 'all land ice', or ice age.

# 21: this is a guess on my part, but maybe the Aesir-Vanir giving word to the ”wise” has a etymological connection to the story of the twelve wise Frisian men, called ”Asegeirs” or 'elders'. For comparison, in Väinämöinen's mythology 12 oldest village elders form the alderman system and the chief rulers in mental aspects are the Aesir (Bock 1996, 35-36, 87-88).

# 22: this theme is strongly echoed in Väinämöinen's mythology:

Oden has always been and will always be.

Oden is the sun and sun control's life.

[…]

All green and soil of earth is created by the sun's power. In this way sun controls life and is the most important element of nature in all mythologies.

[…]

Sampo [Frei] and Aino [Freia] were also primaeval beings, whose birth was a nature's miracle, or

odenting

. (Bock 1996, 22-24, my translation)

We continue with the source text:

And they returned together homeward to the eye of

[23]

Gôt, to the Su(on), which is eternal from Ur through Ru to Ur, as the history of humanity proves! Got grant it!

# 23: here we have the Gôt-Sun-Ur(alda), which nicely connects all the three sources. For the Ur to turn to Ru, it's exactly how the sound system works in Väinämöinen's mythology:

[For example:] T – [te:] tor /to:r/. /te/ is ekens tor, ”tuur” of oak tree.

When one analyses the sound system,

sounds are though as backwards in words

. (Bock 1996, 21-22, my translation.)

So, there you have it, folks! There are literary clues all over the Irminsaga material. In next part we deal more with this subject.

Edited March 29, 2016 by FromFinland

[FromFinland]

Part 2, summary.

#A: to study Oera Linda book/Väinämöinen's mythology/Irminsaga, one has to study also the Oera Linda book/Väinämöinen's mythology/Irminsaga. Regardless of whether one thinks of them as false, authentic, or something in between, the themes and details are so similar to each other that they suggest a need for further comparative studies.

#B: Wralda (Frisians) is the same as the Got (Austro-Hungarians) is the same as the Oden the sun (Finns). That a hero like Wodin would be named after a sun would be natural as in ”Sun King” Louis XIV. Alternatively, a sky objects have been named after cultural heroes as in Big Dipper being 'Oden's wagon'.

#C: similarities in themes and details suggest a common source for all three, for they occasionally agree in details and in a manner of narration that are not known from other surviving sources.

#C1:

That is, if forgeries, they are copies of each other, with the following lineage: various Norse sources like

Heimskringla

and

Edda

–

Oera Linda book

–

Irminsaga

–

Väinämöinen's mythology

.

#C2:

That is, if authentic, they have one common source either in real world history or in a mythical legends, with following lineage: prehistory – several old Nordic legends, perhaps some of them currently lost – various Norse sources like

Heimskringla

and

Edda

–

Väinämöinen's mythology

(since 1248) –

Oera Linda book

(since 1256) –

Irminsaga

(since 1848).

#D: While C1 the fraud option above is in theory possible, there are some good reasons to consider it not applicable at least in the last link of the Väinämöinen's mythology. Public Finnish knowledge of Irminsaga became - to my knowledge - available first in any language in the year 2001, with the mr. Flowers' book was being sold at a one discreet Helsinki bookshop. Whereas the Väinämöinen's mythology had been partially recorded already back in 1984.

Moreover, mr. Bock seemed genuinely clueless of the Wiligut tradition when interviewed about it in 2010. He didn't own any books on the subject matter, nor did he use internet or even own a computer. Mentions of Oera Linda book and Wiligut tradition are more or less uknown from the Finnish academic scene, or from the alternative scene that some of the mr. Bock's friendhood consisted of. While mr. Bock was known for being an extrovert invidual and occasional actor by previous profession, nothing in his reading habits or professional history hints at possibility of being such a great author. If he made this story up, he would have been one of the greatest literary minds of the 20th century Europe, easily equalling such great literary names as Waltari or Tolkien in cleverness. Such a possibility seems outright unlikely, if not impossible.

As I have shown earlier in this topic, some of the similarities between sources are buried so deep in the story that even mr. Bock himself was unaware of them. These strongly suggest that he merely told what he was told in turn, not that he invented it in the 1970s, as some have theorised.

#E: While mr. Wiligut must very likely have been aware of the Oera Linda book, it's noteworthy that the story and the writing system varies a bit from the one in the Oera Linda book. For the C1 fraud option above there exists a specific and serious two-way problem. In Väinämöinen's mythology, as presented by mr. Bock in his 1996 book and later in a 2002 booklet, exists unique information that matches closely Irminsaga material from the 1930s, that was in turn recorded as late as 1997 and printed on paper as late as 2001. Please compare:

On the pictures is

a wooden cane

in possession of Ior Bock, which

belonged earlier to his elders and family

(Nygren 2002, 4th illustration page, image shows a wooden cane with skillfully carved detailed troll face at the top, my translation)

Mr. Wiligut's assistant Gabriele Winckler-Dechend relates the 1930s in a 1997 interview:

Supposedly the Secret Service was interested in Wiligut's Gotenstock [carved wooden cane]. Among other things, the Gotenstock is said to have been used for wedding ceremonies. Could you describe this cane more closely? Do you know anything of its origins or whereabouts?

In regard to the colonel's Gotenstock, it was

inherited from his grandfather by way of his father. It was beautifully made and, judging from the color, propably out of fine wood.

The golden pommel was carved into a head, if I remember correctly. Wiligut did not use it as a support for walking, but rather he carried it with him at all times. (Flowers 2001, 142)

Please compare:

Symbol of Oden

is snake biting it's tail, which forms a ring: one speaks of Oden's ring, which was also often a theme for jewelry.

There were three kinds of rings: earring, wrist ring and

finger ring

, which pagans kept in left ear, left hand wrist and at finger. Men used rings, women jewelry. (Bock 1996, 79, my translation.)

It is told, that in the paradise age the whole world around the land of Oden was Karelia /

ka:rj ja:rl a

/, [i.e. place of karls and earls], which was inhabited by Karelians; after Atlantis [ice age] from it became the names Arjala ['place of Aryans'] and

aryans

, when arctical peoples went east to inhabit the modern day Russia. When the [white Vanir] descendants of the Lemminkäinen went to east and south, they eventually met in the south dark-skinned Vanir, who had began to move gradually towards the north.

After church divided into two systems [Catholic and Orthodox], it became to north by west and east. In the Karelia east and west met and began to make war; many Karelians, or Aryans, moved then to the Central European chivalric orders.

They took with them the symbols of snake and rose.

In this way began the stories of aryans, arjerna. In the Bock family stories it was told that

these migrants were descendants of the rose families.

(Bock 1996, 80-81, my translation.)

Again, Mrs. Winckler-Dechend relates the 1930s in 1997:

We met in the evening, and Herr

von Kanne told us that his family stemmed from a very old foreign line – the ancient foreign rose appeared in their coat of arms

– at which point the colonel [Karl Maria Wiligut] suggested that then

they must also have a snake ring in the family

. However, nothing was known about this. The following day the colonel and I traveled with our adjutants back to Berlin. A few days later, Frau von Kanne came to Berlin and – still very excited – showed me a matchbow containing the snake ring. She wanted to it to the colonel and told me that in the evening, after the aforementioned conversation the men all sat by the fireplace at the Kanne's home and talked about the snake ring. Darré had entreated upon Kanne again and again to see if maybe there really was such a ring in the cupboard where the ancestral heirlooms, and a chronicle of the Kanne family history, were kept. Kanne repeated each time that that was impossible, for he was familiar with every object. Upon Darrés insistence, he finally pulled out a chest of old jewelry in order to prove it. While doing so he bumbed a small, uknown button, whereupon a hidden small drawer sprang open, in which this snake ring lay! It should come as no suprise that this similarly impressed us. (Flowers 2001, 143-144)

I

h o n e s t l y

c a n ' t

m a k e

t h i s

s t u f f

u p .

Check it out yourselves: the Kanne family is either from Germany, Denmark or Norway. Note the heraldic roses.

Of note here is that Norwegians participated in the Kalmar Union along with the Danes from 1397 to 1521. There were a lot of fighting going on in the Baltics and in Finland at Mediaval times: in addition to Swedes, Russians and Germans, Danes attacked Finland in 1191, 1202, 1509; Norwegians in 1008 and 1240 respectively (Cajanti 1997, 31-36).

#E1:

Clearly, the two above sources speak of the same issue. Why would they fake it? How could they fake it not being aware of each other? (Check the publications dates above.) If they were aware of each other, how on earth did they make it happen - was it by clairvoyance, or by telepathy?

#E2:

What are the odds to this happening by coincidence? How many families do

you

know where symbols of rose and snake are passed around, along with old wooden canes? How many Norse sagas or other sources do

you

know that mention the specific combination of a. snake ring jewelry, b. wooden canes as family heirlooms, c. rose heraldry and d. aryans.

That's quite a specific combination, eh?

I could see how

one

story could mention the snake ring. Or how

an another

story might mention the rose heraldry. But no way with like this – this must either be a fraudulent loan, or genuine reflection of old Nordic family tradition culture.

#F: Again, please check the publication dates above. I was there - no way anybody in Finnish alternative scene, in Finnish history scene or in mr. Bock's surroundings had heard anything about the Wiligut tradition at that time. They were profilic authors, yet not a single one book, website or magazine article mentioned the Wiligut material.

#G: The only conclusion I can come to is: the Boxströms and Wiliguts did not screw us – they really had some old information, which were mere remnants of once more common Nordic cultural heritage.

#H: This has some serious implications for the Oera Linda book, too. If we find similarities between the Irminsaga and Oera Linda book, what does that tell in turn of the trustworthyness of Oera Linda book as a source?

#I: Note, this doesn't still mean we need to accept these sources at their face value – anymore than let's say students of Biblical studies take Old Testament for absolute literal truth. This inquiring mindset is also how mr. Bock and mr. Wiligut thought of it (Bock 1996, 11, 101; Flowers 2001, 19).

Edited March 29, 2016 by FromFinland

[Ell]

Moors are people from the Underworld, the huge space habitat of the gods. (I wrote about them in my book about Zwarte Piet.)

I cannot make sense of the redskins, nor the white haired people with red eyes and a long life. I do note, though, that I in my above book, as well as in my translation of Aeneid VI, deduce that the people in the Underworld used eye-lenses that glowed red.

Ginnungagap was the space elevator that was attached to the Underworld. (As deduced in my translation of Aeneid VI.)

The gods and the humans of far antiquity lived in the magical paradigm. In this paradigm the gods were identified with categories of objects and animals and such: totems. Jupiter, of course, was identified with the planet Jupiter. And so on for the other gods. The ruler of the gods (and of mankind) was identified with the Sun. However, since the gods succeeded each other as ruler of the gods - often by defeating the previous ruler - the new ruler of the gods also acquired the Sun identity as his celestial totem.

The Asa who came from the moon must have been the clones of mortals who had previously lived on Earth. In my - published - interpretation of Lucian's 'True History', I deduced that the Moon men - there were only males in this colony - were grown in artificial wombs. Previously I had deduced the existence of an artificial womb, in the Underworld, in my book about Zwarte Piet.

So it does correlate that these Asa coming from the Moon were all males.

Though I would expect females to have been cloned too. In any case I am certain that Frya, Lyda and Finda each had nine hundred clones; together representing 2700 human populations / countries. (I think I mentioned that in my book about 'Friso's Giant Ship'.

[Demiurg]

More homework for you.

"Bijlagen" contains many letters by Verwijs.

It will make you want to judge more carefully.

PDF: Boeles. P.C.J.A., - De houding van dr Eelco Verwijs ten opzichte van het O.L.B. en het Friesch Genootschap. - De Vrije Fries XXX, 1930, pp. 1-52.

And many letters I haven't read, so thanks again.

I can complete my OLB-files, this way.

And talking about that: I saw you have been to Leuven once and made copys of a thesis about the 'vorm- en klankleer' of the OLB.

Are you planning to share the files you have of that?

[Demiurg]

There are people who believe that the Bible says a lot about our present time.

But I wasn't saying the OLB has links to present time, but that it has links to the time in which it is written.

If you want to compare it with the bible: New Testament-historians nowadays are more and more focussing on what books like Mark or Luke has to say about the time in which they are written instead of the times of Jesus. The same goes for the OLB in my opinion. There's no real relevance of what OLB says about Atlantis, the relevance is why and how the writers talk about Atlantis in the context of their present time.

The only so-called linguistic study of the OLB is the pamphlet by Beckering Vinckers (1876).

That's not true and you know it. You went to Leuven yourself to read a thesis of a germanist.

Goffe Jensma also has a chapter about the language. He declares that the OLB isn't even modern Frisian, because you should change word-order if you translate it. If you translate to modern Dutch, you don't have to change any word-order. I have tried it once with some textfragments and I think he's right. Is it possible than to think that OLB-langauge is old Frisian?

He could not gain from it, only loose.

It depends on what you mean by 'gaining'.

In terms of money or career it has no benefit. But the joy of making such a thing and fool people is hard to measure that way.

Don't you think it would be fun to do something like that?

I see. And you look at it from the right angle, I suppose?

No need to be so touchy. You also ignored the reason why I said it.

What strikes me is that you seem to think that if you can prove that Verwijs was not involved authenticity of the OLB would be more plausible. That's what I mean when I said that you look at it from the wrong angle. You can prove that Verwijs was not involved, or also that Over de Linden and Haverschmidt aren't involved too, but that says nothing about authenticity. The writer can also be someone who is (and stays) completely out of the picture.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Demiurg

[Demiurg]

It simply is not relevant. I have established - after initially rejecting it - that the OLB is genuine. Anyone who argues the opposite clearly is wrong and therefore his arguments are of no interest whatsoever.

You say you have 'established' that..., but I've looked back in this thread and haven't found your argument why you decided that the OLB is authentic. I only found something about the manuscript, when you declared that the now know manuscript must be not the authentic one that Ottema must have seen. No arguments there too.

So my questions:

- How do you know that Ottema must have seen another manuscript that really is medieval?

- On what grounds do you have decided the OLB to be authentic?

[FromFinland]

Part 3. addendum

A quick note on the point #18 above on the post #991, about the Got-Hari, of whose 'eye' the sun was said to be in the sky. As the name means in modern english 'God-Lord', I just realised the name does survive in the modern English language as the exclamation Good Lord! This is the same as the old Finnish exlamation-curse perkele ('goddamn').

As for the 1930s story mrs. Winckler-Dechend gave out in 1997, the man called "Darré" turned out be no other than the Darré:

Richard Walther Darré (born Ricardo Walther Oscar Darré; 14 July 1895 – 5 September 1953), was one of the leading Nazi "blood and soil" (German: Blut und Boden) ideologists and served as Reichsminister of Food and Agriculture from 1933 to 1942. He was an SS-Obergruppenführer and the seventh most senior officer of the SS. When the Second World War ended, Darré was the senior most SS-Obergruppenführer, with date of rank from 9 November 1934, outranked only by Heinrich Himmler and the four SS-Oberst-Gruppenführer.

[...]

In his religious views, Dárre would belong to the Pagan faction within the Nazi movement (

Wikipedia

)

Now, as the modern view is largely that the Nazis were just outright nutters with occult vibe, doesn't the information I presented earlier point to a more holistic view – namely that they didn't make it up out of nothing, but based it on some real old folkloristical roots, and even personally experienced and witnessed as to it's accuracy, as the Winckler-Dechend story tells us?

That being said, I have thought more on the sources and the possible Wiligut-Boxström link.

#J: Mr. Bock is known to have had a family connection to a Finnish SS volunteer, who in turn passed away in the 1980s. In theory this could link him to the German Irminsaga – which has a SS connection by the way of colonel Wiligut and Reichsführer-SS Himmler – yet this is unlikely for the following reasons:

#J1:

Finnish Waffen-SS volunteers in general are not known of being oriented towards heathenism or aryanism.

Only 20% of the Finnish SS soldiers were national socialists by political orientation.

Finnish SS volunteers were at Danzig, Stralsund, Heuberg, Stettin, Wien and Gross Born before moving eventually to Ukraine and Donetsk. Wiligut on the other hand was already out of the SS by the start of the WW2 and lived in obscurity in Aufkirchen, Goslar, Austria and died in Arolsen. So Finnish SS volunteers likely never had a good chance to meet mr. Wiligut face to face.

#J2:

all sources, including the very sceptical ones, consistently paint a picture that mr. Bock had little or no connection to this former military person, but instead lived his life with Rachel and Rhea Boxström, who allegedly passed this

Väinämöinen's mythology

and

Bock saga

to him because of Rachel Boxström's death already back in the 1918 at the hands of the Red Guard.

#J3:

Heinrich Himmler was in general interested on all things Finnish and visited us in 1942. Earlier, in 1935 he had met a Finnish student Yrjö von Grönhagen in Germany, whom he hired as Ahnenerbe researcher

to look for the Aryan roots in Karelian folk songs

. (Our national epic Kalevala is made of those very the same Karelian heathen songs.) Thanks to Grönhagen, Himmler had a photo of Finnish heathen song singer Timo Lipitsä

hanging on his office wall

. Yet there are no direct known connections to the Boxströms or to the related SS volunteer above. Grönhagen went east to Karelia, which was then a quiet countryside, not to the Sipoo or urban Helsinki so as to possible link-up with the Boxströms.

#J4:

I have not personally read mr. Grönhagen's rare book on the topic (

reprinted in 2014

), but would be

very

surprised if it would mention the Boxströms. Overall it seems to me as Finn that Grönhagen, Himmler and Wiligut were not aware of the Boxströms. Wiligut's works mention only once the Finns, as a passing mention in a 1934 copy of Hagal and the detail is of such nature that it likely comes from Kalevala or other similar folkloristic source:

also among the Finns Tuonmali [should be: Tuonela] indicates the realm of dead. (Flowers 2001, 70)

#K: in 1993 a booklet on Bock saga was printed in Berlin. In 1992 and 1993 three magazine articles were printed on the subject in German language. I remember having read the 1993 booklet and the 1993 magazine article. To my memory, neither spoke of snake ring jewerly, wooden canes, rose heraldry or aryans.

#K1:

Indeed, the whole Karelian-Aryan and snake-rose theme is only a minor detail mentioned in passing in the mr. Bock 1996 book. When one reads literature or watches the various YouTube videos on the subject, they never bring-up these details, suggesting to that they are simply unware of them. Nor is this stuff much discussed in the Finnish literature on the subject, either. To my mind, the only public sources to them were the 1996 book and 2002 booklet only available in Finnish language and not of very great distribution, either.

#K2:

I'm aware that one of the mr. Bock's German friends was aware of existence of the Wiligut's

Irminsaga

, but that was in the early 2000s when I too was aware of it thanks to the mr. Flower's book. To my mind, this German man seemed unaware of the thematic connection I presented above, for he likely would have brought it up, because he did publish material on this subject.

#K3:

Thus, it seems really difficult to see how mr. Bock or mrs. Winckler-Dechend could loan material from each other. Especially so, because the Wiligut's

Irminsaga

does not have much internet presence, and likely had even less so in the 1990s. There existed books published on the Wiligut subject already in the early 1980s – yet the rose, snake etc. came up only in the 1997 interview, to my knowledge. The 2001 Flowers book calls the 1997 interview "exclusive" on the back cover, which I understand as not having been published earlier. To me it seems, that mr. Bock or his German friend simply had no source for this stuff in German literature before 1997, even if they had searched for such. Nor do I see a specific reason why mr. Bock or his German friend would have searched out mrs. Winckler-Dechend by themselves in time previous to that, or any proof of such activity.

Edited March 30, 2016 by FromFinland

[Ott]

... copys of a thesis about the 'vorm- en klankleer' of the OLB.

Answered in private message.

But I wasn't saying the OLB has links to present time, but that it has links to the time in which it is written.

It is a fallacy: petitio principii (cirkelredenering): It must be written in the 19th century because it has links to this time (in which it was written).

It only works if you first conlcude or assume that it was written then.

These 'links' can not serve to prove that it was written in the 19th century.

None of the 'links' that you found make it impossible that it was actually written before the 19th century.

There's no real relevance of what OLB says about Atlantis, the relevance is why and how the writers talk about Atlantis in the context of their present time.

Again, this is only true after you have concluded or decided that it is a 19th C. product.

That's not true and you know it. You went to Leuven yourself to read a thesis of a germanist.

Goffe Jensma also has a chapter about the language.

Both authors look at the language, assuming that it is fake. They don't consider the possibility that it can be authentic. And therefore they are not qualified to conclude that it is fake, because that was their starting point even before they started looking at the language. For a (real) scientist that is an obvious mistake, as you will only find what you are looking for (that is, if you reject anything that does not fit in your presupposed model).

Beckering Vinckers did the same, but less explicitly, and he is the one always referred to. That is why I only mentioned him.

Is it possible than to think that OLB-langauge is old Frisian?

Yes, again I refer to De Haan Hettema, Ottema and Maußer, to name a few.

I also don't share Jensma's 'conclusions'. German syntax is very similar to Dutch, by the way (as are most Frisian dialects).

'Modern' Frisian is designed such as to be as much different from Dutch as possible. That's how they get more government money. (And for many it's an identity thing.) Many Frisians that I know despise the standardised 'subsidy' Frysk.

Don't you think it would be fun to do something like that?

I think it's (still) impossible. Perhaps you can, some day, try to make one single page.

What strikes me is that you seem to think that if you can prove that Verwijs was not involved authenticity of the OLB would be more plausible.

Arguments against Verwijs' involvement at least make the currently dominant hoax theory less plausible.

I earlier also argumented against Knul's Halbertsma theory.

If there are no plausible suspects, that does weaken the general hoax theory.

The writer can also be someone who is (and stays) completely out of the picture.

So far, I still have not seen any strong argument why it can not possibly be a 13th century copy of older originals.

It is no use looking for a murderer,

if the deceased can simply have died a natural death.

[Ell]

You have done a lot of thorough research, FF. Enough to write and publish your own treatise or book about it?

[FromFinland]

You have done a lot of thorough research, FF. Enough to write and publish your own treatise or book about it?

Thank you Ell, that's very kind of you. I do not have any such plans at the moment. I do recognize that while this forum format makes it easy to publish information and for others to comment on it, it kind of spreads the information all over. On the other hand it's very easy to embed links to the text, so that readers can easily follow-through and even make their own conclusions from the same source data. If you find my information useful, please do make local copies for your own use. Do not trust the Internet to keep information available for ever.

My input has been to give an outside look, whether in sources or similarities to other similar stories from elsewhere in the Europe. This way I can act as a kind of short-cut for you the Dutch, to save time and energy. So that you do not need to learn Finnish or engross into the Nordic sagas all day. Likewise, you Western Europeans have sources of information that I here in Finland have not even heard of, or am unable to read because I can't read Dutch. (Like the one Demiurg told about short time ago.) Sometimes I wonder what the Russian and other Eastern Europeans academics would be able to tell, because they too have their own sources of information.

Yesterday it was suggested to me, that maybe I could make my university thesis on this or on a closely related subject matter. I have thought about it a little so far... No promises yet, as history isn't my major!

Edited March 30, 2016 by FromFinland