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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 3]


Abramelin
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Goffe Jensma ... declares that the OLB isn't even modern Frisian, because you should change word-order if you translate it. If you translate to modern Dutch, you don't have to change any word-order. I have tried it once with some textfragments and I think he's right.

Considering that what is now Holland, was still Frisia in the Middle Ages, modern Dutch and Frisian are both New Frisian (Dutch then being New West Frisian).

So perhaps the OLB language is more like Old Dutch (i.e. Old West Frisian) than Old (East) Frisian.

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Correction to the part 3 point J2 above: it was Rafael Boxström, not Rachel who passed away in 1918 and whose place mr. Bock allegedly took in the family, inheriting the hereditary title (though not an actual position in this case) of king of Finland. Likewise, Karl Maria Wiligut was allegedly a "secret king", albeit that of the Central European Gypsies like other the Hungarian magnates before him. The 1997 interview of mrs. Winkler-Dechend speaks at length about this side of the story, and the mrs. is able to confirm to the interviewer in four different questions and answers that mr. Wiligut was genuinely of mighty and once very important family background - albeit it waned during the Wiligut's lifetime to almost oblivion, starting right from the break up of Austro-Hungarian Empire in WW1 and was finished by the Germany's WW2 defeat.

Edited by FromFinland
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Strabo mentions a group who lived in India called the Germanes.

For who reads German and Gothic script:

med_gallery_137752_7_179138.jpg

Source: (1786) Deutsche Encyclopädie oder Allgemeines Real-Wörterbuch aller Künste und Wissenschaften: Gal-Ger. Eilfter Band, Band 11, Seite 69

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Interesting. If these Germans had anything to do with the OLB Germans, they did deteriorate quite a bit. However, I rather doubt that there is any connection.

As for the OLB Germans, when they still lived in 'India', according to my analysis, they were occupied with the fabrication of the space elevator cables. Apparently they were dismissed and sent to the OLB region when their services were no longer required.

Space elevator cables are high technology; we cannot make them as yet. But of course high technology also has low tech functions associated with it. Buildings, for example, are designed by architects, but built by laborers.

Edited by Ell
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As for the OLB Germans, when they still lived in 'India', according to my analysis, they were occupied with the fabrication of the space elevator cables.

Your analysis of what?

Are you sure you are in the right thread?

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As for the OLB Germans, when they still lived in 'India', according to my analysis, they were occupied with the fabrication of the space elevator cables.

Space elevator cables are high technology; we cannot make them as yet.

So, the OLB is an authentic account from the future? Do I understand that correctly?

And are these the same space elevators that Zwarte Piet is using?

There are still some questions waiting for you.

Edited by Demiurg
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Your analysis of what?

Of the name Gertmanna - if I recall that name correctly. It has been some time since I researched that and I cannot recall if I added it already in an update to one of my books.

The OLB cannot be seen independently of its earliest times - and in those days the pagan gods were very much active.

Edited by Ell
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So, the OLB is an authentic account from the future? Do I understand that correctly?

No, you do not understand correctly.

And are these the same space elevators that Zwarte Piet is using?

You mean "wil be using", since you appear to believe that the OLB comes from the future.

No, I am talking about Far Antiquity, about the time when history according to the OLB began. And yes, the gods did use those space elevators - why else build them. It is a bit of a duh question.

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No, you do not understand correctly.

You mean "wil be using", since you appear to believe that the OLB comes from the future.

No, I am talking about Far Antiquity, about the time when history according to the OLB began. And yes, the gods did use those space elevators - why else build them. It is a bit of a duh question.

Belief in the existence of "Space Elevators" in antiquity does not validate their existence.
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I have yet to understand what this thread (and the previous two preceding it) were about. I read, but I apparently do not comprehend.

Cheers,

Badeskov

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Ottema (See Othar's website.)

This conclusion by Ottema is very wrong indeed. This never was the purpose of the creation of mankind. If it was, Finda and Lyda would never have been created. The creation of Frya would have sufficed.

The OLB does mention the purpose of the creation of the three females: to breed - in a thousands of years lasting process - a superhuman being (species, or rather a variety) in whom the three different, separate divine characteristics of the three females would be joined and optimally effective. Ottema therefore ought to have known better.

It may not have been the intention of WrAlda , but OLB does seem to indicate that at the time of writing the mother

thought the outcome would be that Finda and Lyda would exterminate each other , i think it says also that Frya's

people have a purpose to populate the areas left vacant by their wars .

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It may not have been the intention of WrAlda , but OLB does seem to indicate that at the time of writing the mother

thought the outcome would be that Finda and Lyda would exterminate each other, i think it says also that Frya's

people have a purpose to populate the areas left vacant by their wars .

Indeed, but despite the wisdom of Frya's progeny, this also demonstrates their stupidity. Lyda and Finda were as divine humans as Frya, but each in her own unique psychological way. So the mother may have expected those people to exterminate each other, but that was never the purpose of the creation of Lyda and Finda. The true - possibly later decided upon - purpose was revealed by the mother who had been abducted on board of a ship before her death.

The arrival of the first Friso was the final accomplishment of the molecular geneticists who created mankind: he had available to him all of the divine mental characteristics. What is curious, is that no mention was made in the OLB of the intermediate steps: people who had available to them combinations of two of the characteristics. These intermediate people are present in the pantheons of the gods, though. Maybe they were skipped in us humans. All varieties, though, are present in contemporary human populations.

Edited by Ell
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Your analysis of what?

Are you sure you are in the right thread?

lol Yeah come on Ell, you're giving us a bad name here....look, even the others have popped in, this is too much. I really hope what you say is fictional for your books....

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I have yet to understand what this thread (and the previous two preceding it) were about. I read, but I apparently do not comprehend.

Cheers,

Badeskov

We are here to try and prove or disprove the authenticity of the said book and the contents within it. (Which does not include space elevators)

Edited by The Puzzler
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We are here to try and prove or disprove the authenticity of the said book and the contents within it. (Which does not include space elevators)

-Sigh-

Thank Wralda, I was getting afraid I would have read over a juicy part like that.

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I guess the DBNL-version is complete.

Aha, last time I checked, it lacked the tables (like in the Tresoar version), I think.

Anyway, the title is incomplete.

Why would they have left out "aangetoond uit de wartaal waarin het is geschreven"? (as proven by the gibberish in which it was written)

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lol Yeah come on Ell, you're giving us a bad name here....look, even the others have popped in, this is too much. I really hope what you say is fictional for your books....

I distinctly remember having investigated the name. Yet when I search in my various books there is no mention of it.

I can reconstruct a bit of it using Aryan roots (subjective choice):

Kar = to make

Kar (Har) = to curve or to roll

Gar = to assemble

Ghar = to wind about

This in the context of the space elevator, which at that time was situated in 'India'.

In Dutch we still have the word 'garen' (= yarn = thread). Garen is made and wound around.

So, yes, in my opinion there are arguments that the Germanna were occupied in 'India' in making yarn, i.e. the space elevator cables.

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This in the context of the space elevator, which at that time was situated in 'India'.

In Dutch we still have the word 'garen' (= yarn = thread). Garen is made and wound around.

So, yes, in my opinion there are arguments that the Germanna were occupied in 'India' in making yarn, i.e. the space elevator cables.

Maybe you can point out what passage you are talking about. Can you give the full quote and the pagenumber?

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You mean "wil be using", since you appear to believe that the OLB comes from the future.

It seemed to me you did. Because you talked about Gertmannen building space elevators and than added that the technology isn't available yet.

No, I am talking about Far Antiquity, about the time when history according to the OLB began. And yes, the gods did use those space elevators - why else build them. It is a bit of a duh question.

Just point out the passage where Gertmannen are building space elevators and we have something to talk about.

Btw: still waiting for your answers to these questions:

- How do you know that Ottema must have seen another manuscript that really is medieval?

- On what grounds do you have decided the OLB to be authentic?

Edited by Demiurg
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It is a fallacy: petitio principii (cirkelredenering): It must be written in the 19th century because it has links to this time (in which it was written). It only works if you first conlcude or assume that it was written then.

These 'links' can not serve to prove that it was written in the 19th century. None of the 'links' that you found make it impossible that it was actually written before the 19th century.

The time in which it was written (that's what I said) is not necessarily the 19th century, it could also be the 18th, 17th or a century before that. And it's not a fallacy to point out internal parts of the text to date a manuscript. That's what historians do. So after acknowledging that the paper is probably 19th century, the language is 19th century, the manuscript has been out in the open in the 19th century, it's not so strange if internal factors reveal aspects of 19th century culture too.

Again, this is only true after you have concluded or decided that it is a 19th C. product.

Well, I just made a small list. I haven't worked out these cases. But having said that, it's not a matter of looking for examples of 19th century mentality, it's a matter of looking for internal factors to date the manuscript. And the examples that come to mind are 19the century, don't you think? Atlantis was a known story before the 19th century, but the heated debates and the serious quest was really something of that era.

Both authors look at the language, assuming that it is fake. They don't consider the possibility that it can be authentic. And therefore they are not qualified to conclude that it is fake, because that was their starting point even before they started looking at the language. For a (real) scientist that is an obvious mistake, as you will only find what you are looking for (that is, if you reject anything that does not fit in your presupposed model).

You really make a caricature of it. So every scientist that works on the OLB has to start from the bottom with evaluating the manuscript again? That's not how it works. The authenticity is falsified before and there is consensus about that. So, if someone works on the OLB, he evaluate what the literature says about the historical criticism and than jump into his own bit of research. Jensma did evaluate the literature on this point.

Beckering Vinckers didn't the same, he researched the linguistic factors of the OLB and came to the conclusion that on these grounds the OLB must be fake. You might not like his conclusion, but if he's done this, it's normal practise that other researchers didn't do his work again, but just evaluate his publications about it.

Yes, again I refer to De Haan Hettema, Ottema and Maußer, to name a few.

I also don't share Jensma's 'conclusions'. German syntax is very similar to Dutch, by the way (as are most Frisian dialects).

You don't have to compare it with modern laguages, you have to compare it with the old frisian we know.

I think it's (still) impossible. Perhaps you can, some day, try to make one single page.

What exactly do you think is impossible?

Arguments against Verwijs' involvement at least make the currently dominant hoax theory less plausible.

I earlier also argumented against Knul's Halbertsma theory.

If there are no plausible suspects, that does weaken the general hoax theory.

If you say that, you seem to imply that the OLB-research only has focussed on the 'who done it'-question. Well, that simply isn't true. There is so much written about the internal and external factors of the OLB. By Jensma, the Jong, Beckering Vinckers, Breuker... As I said before: the quest for the creators starts after establishing that the OLB must be a 19th century creation. And therefore it doesn't matter if Verwijs or any other suspect would be proven 'not guilty'.

So far, I still have not seen any strong argument why it can not possibly be a 13th century copy of older originals.

What arguments did you have seen to prove that it's from the 13th century? I have seen none.

Edited by Demiurg
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The time in which it was written (that's what I said) is not necessarily the 19th century, it could also be the 18th, 17th or a century before that. And it's not a fallacy to point out internal parts of the text to date a manuscript. That's what historians do. So after acknowledging that the paper is probably 19th century, the language is 19th century, the manuscript has been out in the open in the 19th century, it's not so strange if internal factors reveal aspects of 19th century culture too.

What Demiurg stated is exactly what I have tried to do: to try find similar narratives, details, characters and rhetorical ways of telling between the sources. It helps us to find possible older sources and also to possibly confirm some of them, if they seem to be telling the same story from different viewpoints. (If different sources that do not mirror each other, or are not known to have merely copied from each other, tell more or less the same story, then it's likely based on some actual thing.)

To my knowledge, we have no narrative source for the relevant question, that did the manuscript survive intact as such from the year 1256 to us, or has it been edited or re-written in the time between the 1256 and 1800s? The second option might leave literary clues to various centuries quite close to us, yet still keep an ancient core or ancient bits of lore here and there.

(This very the same issue helds true also for the Icelandic Hrafnagaldr Óðins, German Old High German lullaby, Irish Foras Feasa ar Éirinn, Finnish Väinämöinen's mythology, Austro-Hungarian Irminsaga and Ukrainian Book of Veles. On what basis do we decide them to be genuine, fake or something in between? For example, Väinämöinen' mythology is part of larger Bock family saga, that did in turn evolve all the way until 2010, so the narrative in it includes a plenty of modern references in addition to ones that are alleged as primordial.)

Demiurg, it's great you brought up the mr. Breuker's book. Unfortunately I myself can't read Dutch and all of his books seem to be sold out in webshops. Could you please share one or more Breuker's comparisons between the Oera Linda book and the papers mr. Verwijs left behind? The way you describe mr. Breuker's work, he seems to have done a bit similar work to mine, thought he seems to have referred into 19th century sources and not earlier.

So every scientist that works on the OLB has to start from the bottom with evaluating the manuscript again?

While I can't answer for Othar, in my opinion it depends on the groundwork. If it's good and detailed, one could move on the more peripheral issues that have not yet been researched. To my foreign eyes it looks as if this is not at all the case with Oera Linda book, as the research so far seems to have focused on linquistics and possible 19th century literary loans, with very little or no attention given to comparing it to older sources or archeology. I would love to know the Dutch or other academic studies that deal with the latter. (So just to be reassured that the burden of comparative old literary research doesn't lie on the shoulders of one random Finnish university student researching this stuff at 02:00 AM...)

That's not how it works. The authenticity is falsified before and there is consensus about that.
Amongst whom there is this consensus? Do you mean Dutch academia of Tresoar and the universities?
So, if someone works on the OLB, he evaluate what the literature says about the historical criticism and than jump into his own bit of research. Jensma did evaluate the literature on this point.
So, Jensma was sure that the studies before him had already compared enough the Oera Linda book to other classical and medieval sources? I can see how he might have been unaware of the Irminsaga or the Väinämöinen's mythology in the early 2000s, as the literature on them was published so late, but surely he was aware of the older sources and studies?
You don't have to compare it with modern laguages, you have to compare it with the old frisian we know.
How do we "know" that the old Frisian that has survived represents the whole spectrum of Frisian dialects back at the day, and is not reflective of nth century?

In archeology exists a problem that Medieval paintings show quite a wide range of different arms and armour, yet only few types have survived to us. Most of the selection have been lost by the centuries in between, so it's an open question what gear was actually used back in the day. Are the paintings to be trusted, for they show some gear that has actually survived to our day? Could it be similar situation here, with Oera Linda book (or Old High German lullaby...) taking the place of the painting in the example?

If you say that, you seem to imply that the OLB-research only has focussed on the 'who done it'-question. Well, that simply isn't true. There is so much written about the internal and external factors of the OLB. By Jensma, the Jong, Beckering Vinckers, Breuker...
Did Jensma, the Jong, Beckering Vinckers, Breuker and others compare the text to likes of Tacitus' Germania, Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People, Sturluson's Ynglinsaga, Guerber's Myths of the Norsemen, Tolkien's Finn and Hengest, Wiligut's Irminsaga and Bock's Väinämöinen's mythology? If yes, do we know what they did found out? Edited by FromFinland
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