Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 3]

[Abramelin]

The Hilversum culture is a prehistoric material culture found in middle Bronze age in the region of the southern Netherlands and northern Belgium. It has been associated with the Wessex culture from the same period in southern England, and is one of the material cultures of this part of northwestern continental Europe which has been proposed to have had a "Nordwestblock" language which was indo-european, but neither Germanic nor Celtic.

 

The culture was bordered to its northeast by the Elp culture, to which it may have been related, and to its north by the Hoogkarspel culture.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilversum_culture

[Abramelin]

Ethnic Constructs in Antiquity -The role of power and tradition.

Editors: Ton Derks & Nico Roymans

Amsterdam University Press

 

The early medieval use of ethnic names from classical antiquity.

The case of the Frisians

Jos Baselmans

 

From note 39, continued on page 326:

 

- we do not know the language of the North and West Netherlands coastal inhabitants from the late Iron Age and the Roman period; it is even possible that it wasn't Germanic.

[Abramelin]

Lochlan was the north of Germany, extending from the Rhine to the Elbe, and the name of Lochlannach was originally applied to the ancient traditionary pirates termed the Fomorians. When the Norwegian and Danish pirates appeared in the ninth century, they were likewise called  Lochlannach; and the name of Lochlan was transferred to Norway and Denmark, from whence they came. There is every reason to believe that the Low German race were preceded, in the more ancient Lochlan, by a Celtic people.

 

http://www.archive.org/stream/deanoflismoresbo00macluoft/deanflismoresbo00macluoft_djvu.text

[Abramelin]

To Jaylemurph:

What I am trying to point out is, that the language used in the OLB is some form of fabricated Germanic, instead of Celtic or some other language.   The language used in the OLB is a fabrication made by mixing 19th century Dutch with, like I already said, Frisian idiom and grammar. However, it should have been written in either a  Celtic language, or some other language. Instead of pointing me on my maybe wrong assumptions, you'd better show some of your expertise.

Just being p***ed off is reallly easy. Now show us why. Show us your damn expertise.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

An interesting pdf is this one:

The Cimbri of Denmark, the Norse and Danish Vikings, and Y-DNA Haplogroup  R-S28/U152 - (Hypothesis A)

David K. Faux

Version: 28 August 2011

 

[Abramelin]

From "Frisian Fighters and the Crusades"  by Johannes A. Mol

Fryske Akademij, Leeuwarden, 2002

 

"Perhaps even more convicing is the word used for the jumping pole-spear in a Rustringen law codification from the twelfth century. There - in a prohibition on bearing arms - the spear is not denoted with the usual words "spere or orde" (which means pointed stick, as a pars pro toto) but as a "kletsie". (75)

Recent etymological research has shown that this word - meaning fork or claw - and thus also a pars pro toto, but then for the other end - does not have Germanic or Indo-European roots and has to be considered as a substratum, taken over from an earlier non-Germanic population by the tribes that settled in these coastal regions in the fourth and fifth centuries.(76)"

[Abramelin]

I may be an idiot, but from what I gather from searching the internet, I learned that it is very possible that the Frisii ( = NOT Frisians) were a non-Germanic tribe. These same Frisii were the 'Fryans' of the OLB.   So why has the OLB been written in some Germanic language, while it should have - around 600 bce - been written in either Celtic, or some other yet unknown language?

Now that's where a real linguist steps in, and explains things.

And I wonder if real linguists visit this site. I once invited Theo Venneman to this site, but he never responded to my email. Now that shouldn't surprise me, he gets regularly p***ed off by stating that Semites had a great influence on the Germanic language. And that doesn't sit well with many Europeans, heh.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Abramelin

[jaylemurph]

A real linguist wouldn’t waste their time on what is so clearly a fake. 

There was no Celtic or German writing in 600 BCE. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Abramelin]

Someone apparently did waste his time on the OLB:

BOSSCHE, VINCENT VAN DEN,
Klankleer en vormleer in Thet Oera Linda Bok. Licentiaatsverhandeling Katholieke  
Universiteit Leuven, 2000

[Abramelin]

12 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

A real linguist wouldn’t waste their time on what is so clearly a fake. 

There was no Celtic or German writing in 600 BCE. 

—Jaylemurph 

So, based on what do scientists come to the idea that the language spoken in the lowlands may not have been Germanic (=/= German), that it was something inbetween Celtic and Germanic, or even non-Indo-European?

[jaylemurph]

With no record of writing, there’s no hard evidence of what language was spoken, so nobody knows exactly what language(s) were spoken back then. Modern theories rely on Roman reports, chiefly, and archaeology, neither of which are particularly useful, since there’s no clear link between a cultural group and the language spoken by them. 

Anybody telling you for sure what was being spoken in pre-literate Iron Age Europe is lying. 

And I literally don’t even know how to react to the idea that German isn’t a Germanic language, so I won’t waste time trying. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Abramelin]

German is a Germanic language. But Germanic is not equal to German.

And, according to you, I said that people know for sure what language was spoken back then. I did not , and that should be clear for any moron reading this thread.

You are not a linguist at all. Fck off, and play with those that love you: your basset hounds.

[Abramelin]

If you have posted any papers concerning your research involving linguistics and/or etymology, I'd like to read them.

However, somehow I don't expect anything.

[Abramelin]

I do hope you are not the "jaylemurph"  with this note on his twitter account:

"Dramaturg. Playwright. Coffee *****. Graduate Student in search of a nice nap".

 

 

[jaylemurph]

50 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I do hope you are not the "jaylemurph"  with this note on his twitter account:

"Dramaturg. Playwright. Coffee *****. Graduate Student in search of a nice nap".

 

 

I was, ten years ago. Well, was a graduate student. I’m still in search of a nice nap.

I’ve had historical and historico-linguistic papers published in peer-reviewed journals and posted on Academia and at least two people here have read them. More, I think. But I’ve no desire to share them with you. God knows, you might cite one of them, somewhere, trying to explain why Basques speak Cornish or why the Dutch are historically relevant or some similar nonsense. It’s happened before and I’d like to forestall a repeat.

And, yes, actually: basset hounds do love me. Mostly because I feed them. Dogs are grateful like that.

—Jaylemurph

[Abramelin]

8 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

I was, ten years ago. Well, was a graduate student. I’m still in search of a nice nap.

I’ve had historical and historico-linguistic papers published in peer-reviewed journals and posted on Academia and at least two people here have read them. More, I think. But I’ve no desire to share them with you. God knows, you might cite one of them, somewhere, trying to explain why Basques speak Cornish or why the Dutch are historically relevant or some similar nonsense. It’s happened before and I’d like to forestall a repeat.

And, yes, actually: basset hounds do love me. Mostly because I feed them. Dogs are grateful like that.

—Jaylemurph

Ok, but I think you are confusing me for some other participant of this thread.

I am able to read scientific papers, thank you.

[Abramelin]

Well, if you are still here, I'd like to ask you what you think of Venneman's theories. I do know his ideas are  being disputed, rediculized, hated  and so on.  But if he is right, his ideas may change European history.

[lilthor]

On 8/14/2020 at 8:52 AM, Abramelin said:

So why has the OLB been written in some Germanic language, while it should have - around 600 bce - been written in either Celtic, or some other yet unknown language?

How do we know it wasn't?  And then re-transcribed, perhaps numerous times, in more up-to-date languages/dialects...?

[jaylemurph]

Vennenan is by and large a crank. Well meaning, perhaps, but I don’t know anyone who buys into his weird (and ultimately unsupportable) claims. I say claims because nothing of his are so well developed as a normal theory.

There is no archaeological data to suggest a Semitic influence on pre-Iron Age northern Europe. 

And while there may well be a pre-IE Vasconic substrate in western Europe, Venneman’s theory is not the first nor is it the best presented, and his other, krankier claims detract considerably from this one. 

The more respected theories of language at that time and place are here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordwestblock

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Belgian_language

In the end, though, my original statement — there’s far too little data for any kind of certainty— is fundamentally correct. 

And I certainly hope the extended diatribe against me I strongly expect to follow this post can be avoided by remembering you specifically asked for this.

—Jaylemurph 

[Piney]

6 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordwestblock

I find the idea of a middle dialect between Celtic and German fascinating.

I also think there was a Italo-Celtic middle dialect and/or a Proto-Italo Celtic spoken around Northern Italy and Southern Switzerland.

6 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

There is no archaeological data to suggest a Semitic influence on pre-Iron Age northern Europe. 

Nor genetic or linguistic and the whole idea borders on British Israelite racism. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Piney

[Piney]

On 8/16/2020 at 11:25 AM, Abramelin said:

Well, if you are still here, I'd like to ask you what you think of Venneman's theories. I do know his ideas are  being disputed, rediculized, hated  and so on.  But if he is right, his ideas may change European history.

Runic probably derives from the Pontic /Central Asian runes carried by Scythian-Sarmatian and other nomadic tribes. 

[Piney]

13 hours ago, lilthor said:

How do we know it wasn't?  And then re-transcribed, perhaps numerous times, in more up-to-date languages/dialects...?

The OLB completely ignores the cultural interactions with the Pontic-Caspian Steppe when there is archaeological evidence all over Poland. 

Proof enough for me that it's a fraud.

[Abramelin]

6 hours ago, Piney said:

Runic probably derives from the Pontic /Central Asian runes carried by Scythian-Sarmatian and other nomadic tribes. 

Can you give me an example of these runes?

According to Vennemann it were the Punics/Phoenicians whose script was the origin of the Germanic runes.

[Abramelin]

13 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

Vennenan is by and large a crank. Well meaning, perhaps, but I don’t know anyone who buys into his weird (and ultimately unsupportable) claims. I say claims because nothing of his are so well developed as a normal theory.

There is no archaeological data to suggest a Semitic influence on pre-Iron Age northern Europe. 

And while there may well be a pre-IE Vasconic substrate in western Europe, Venneman’s theory is not the first nor is it the best presented, and his other, krankier claims detract considerably from this one. 

The more respected theories of language at that time and place are here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordwestblock

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Belgian_language

In the end, though, my original statement — there’s far too little data for any kind of certainty— is fundamentally correct. 

And I certainly hope the extended diatribe against me I strongly expect to follow this post can be avoided by remembering you specifically asked for this.

—Jaylemurph 

Thank you for your reply. If you don't mind, I will think about what you posted for a while, and come back with an answer.

[Abramelin]

7 hours ago, Piney said:

The OLB completely ignores the cultural interactions with the Pontic-Caspian Steppe when there is archaeological evidence all over Poland. 

Proof enough for me that it's a fraud.

Now I am playing the Devil's Advocate: the OLB does mention an invasion/intrusion of a people from the east, the Magiar. And that around 2000 bce.