Abramelin Posted September 2, 2020 Author #2001 Share Posted September 2, 2020 Maybe those interested in Doggerland should continue posting in that thread because we are going very off topic. Mea culpa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandias Posted September 2, 2020 #2002 Share Posted September 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Abramelin said: Maybe those interested in Doggerland should continue posting in that thread because we are going very off topic. Mea culpa. Well, if the Great Flood is the topic then I have to say that that flood never happened the way it has been described in the Bible. The Biblical account is likely based upon local flooding of the Mesopotamian region. And as for the Oera Linda Book. I have to accept the verdict of modern scholarship that it is a nineteenth century antiquarian hoax. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 3, 2020 Author #2003 Share Posted September 3, 2020 21 hours ago, Ozymandias said: Well, if the Great Flood is the topic then I have to say that that flood never happened the way it has been described in the Bible. The Biblical account is likely based upon local flooding of the Mesopotamian region. And as for the Oera Linda Book. I have to accept the verdict of modern scholarship that it is a nineteenth century antiquarian hoax. Alewyn's book (may he rest in peace) that started this thread 10 years ago, mentioned an impact of a comet/meteor that created the Burckle Crater in the Indian Ocean, and probably killed many, and caused lots of damage and so on. His problem was, that that impact was estimated to have happened around 2800 bce. He thought it could also have happened around 2200 bce, the date of the disaster mentioned in the OLB. He also thought that that impact was the cause the earth's tilt changed, and by that changed the seasons. I remember I told him not even the impact that killed off the dinosaurs was able to change the tilt of the earth's axis. But he firmly believed that an impact around 2200 bce changed the seasons, caused a flood - THE flood - and caused an unknown civilisation to be almost destroyed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandias Posted September 3, 2020 #2004 Share Posted September 3, 2020 2 hours ago, Abramelin said: Alewyn's book (may he rest in peace) that started this thread 10 years ago, mentioned an impact of a comet/meteor that created the Burckle Crater in the Indian Ocean, and probably killed many, and caused lots of damage and so on. His problem was, that that impact was estimated to have happened around 2800 bce. He thought it could also have happened around 2200 bce, the date of the disaster mentioned in the OLB. He also thought that that impact was the cause the earth's tilt changed, and by that changed the seasons. I remember I told him not even the impact that killed off the dinosaurs was able to change the tilt of the earth's axis. But he firmly believed that an impact around 2200 bce changed the seasons, caused a flood - THE flood - and caused an unknown civilisation to be almost destroyed. Whatever about what people believe, I am an evidence based man requiring empirical proof. You may be familiar with the work of Mike Baillie out of Queen's University Belfast. He is an ecological physicist who specialises in dendrochronology. Partly as a result of his researches Ireland now has a unique unbroken chronology of oak tree-ring growth extending backwards in time for 7300 years. I mention it because, amid the speculative smoke and mirrors of the fringe element, he has identified a number of periods within the sequence where something of an environmental disaster evidently occurred. There were years when these trees underwent extreme stress resulting in virtually no growth; for example, 3195BC, 2354BC, 1628BC, etc, but in particular that ten year period following 2354BC when Irish oaks undoubtedly experienced an extraordinary environmental event. possibly continuous heavy rainfall and major flooding. What impressed him - because of its empirical nature - was the fact that that period was especially significant for many reasons, not least because it occurs during the time when Ireland transitioned from the Neolithic into the Bronze Age. There is other hard physical evidence in support of this: glass shards in Ireland from the Hekla 4 eruption have been dated to 2310 +/- 20 cal BC. So something catastrophic may have precipitated major social changes about that time. As with all archaeology, hard facts become ground for further speculation and Baillie (and others) conjecture that this disaster may have facilitated population removal and replacement together with the introduction of new metal-working technologies, etc. But what makes this even more intriguing is what was recorded in the Lebor Gabála Érenn and certain Irish Annals (Anno Mundi section: https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100005A/text002.html). For the year 2380BC and the forty-year period following they record that 9000 people died in Ireland and the country lay waste for 30 years. 'Lakes erupted' and a new invasion of people, the Nemedians, arrived to repopulate the country. How could annalists with no scientific knowledge or understanding of tree-ring chronology or glass shard analysis have been independently able to record that something environmentally disastrous happened in Ireland in the mid-24th century BC that fundamentally changed Irish society? Apparently, it was the persistence of folk memory to endure over time in an isolated and conservative island nation on the periphery of Europe. If the combined testimony of the tree-ring chronology, the glass shards and the Irish annals are not to be taken as indicative of a possible flood disaster - certainly some kind of environmental cataclysm - then maybe Isaac Newton and Edmund Halley are more credible sources of information. Based on a different scientific basis both thought that Noah's (or The Great Biblical) Flood was caused by a comet in 2341BC, and Archbishop Ussher, using the internal evidence of the Bible (for what that is worth) dated the Flood to 2349BC. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 5, 2020 Author #2005 Share Posted September 5, 2020 (edited) Ozymandias, sorry, but somehow I need a microscope to read your post. Edit: Ok, I read it. The date for the Flood as used in the OLB was based on the Bible's chronology, but without the corrections used by others like Usher. I am wondering why, of all people who posted here, I should be the one explaining whatever the OLB is about... Edited September 5, 2020 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 5, 2020 #2006 Share Posted September 5, 2020 On 9/3/2020 at 10:15 AM, Abramelin said: But he firmly believed that an impact around 2200 bce changed the seasons, caused a flood - THE flood - and caused an unknown civilisation to be almost destroyed. c.6000BC: 8.2 Kiloyear Event Lake Aggassiz Final Outburst Flood Persian Gulf Black Sea More Mt Etna Tsunami + Atlit-Yam Storegga Slide Tsunami Egyptologist John Romer: Quote In distant prehistoric times, both the Nile's flow and intrusions into the [Mediterranean] sea into its delta had been so violent as to delete all record of earlier human activity [in the greater Delta/coastal regions]. In the seventh millennium BC [c. 6,000BC], for example, the Nile had flowed so fiercely through its delta that it had channeled into a single outflow into the Mediterranean, the so-called "Great River", which had run from due north from the ending of the valley's limestone cliffs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 6, 2020 Author #2007 Share Posted September 6, 2020 9 hours ago, Thanos5150 said: c.6000BC: 8.2 Kiloyear Event Lake Aggassiz Final Outburst Flood Persian Gulf Black Sea More Mt Etna Tsunami + Atlit-Yam Storegga Slide Tsunami Egyptologist John Romer: This you should have posted in the Doggerland thread! But I already did that, years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 6, 2020 Author #2008 Share Posted September 6, 2020 (edited) On 8/30/2020 at 2:21 PM, Piney said: No, he said it was a "substrate" word. and I pointed out that "nobility" and "people" both have PIE (Proto-Indo European) origins Not to stress my point, but I found a link to a site where Mailhammer explains his ideas in rather easy to read language: https://theconversation.com/shillings-gods-and-runes-clues-in-language-suggest-a-semitic-superpower-in-ancient-northern-europe-139381 And also click on the parts of the text that are underlined. Edit: A link to a wiki page about Vennemann, including criticism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_(Semitic)_languages Edited September 6, 2020 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 6, 2020 #2009 Share Posted September 6, 2020 5 hours ago, Abramelin said: This you should have posted in the Doggerland thread! But I already did that, years ago. Given this thread is about the Great Flood it seemed more appropriate here though obviously it applies to both. Regardless, when searching for a date of the Mesopotamian flood myth it appears to me c. 6,000BC is the most likely candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 6, 2020 Author #2010 Share Posted September 6, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Thanos5150 said: Given this thread is about the Great Flood it seemed more appropriate here though obviously it applies to both. Regardless, when searching for a date of the Mesopotamian flood myth it appears to me c. 6,000BC is the most likely candidate. You know what is rather funny? Overwijn, the 3d transliterator/translator/interpretor of the OLB (after Ottema and Wirth) said that the date of the disaster mentioned in the OLB, 2194 BC, was wrong. According to him (in the 2nd edition of his book, 1951) the disaster actually took place around ... 6250 BC. He must have guestimated that date for the final flooding of Doggerland. Btw., he was also the one who claimed that the original MS was written in a Celtic language, and that it later had been translated into a Germanic language. That would explain the, according to him, weird and silly 'etymologies'. But if you read his book (it's in Dutch), you'll find his 'theories' are even weirder. Edited September 6, 2020 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted September 6, 2020 #2011 Share Posted September 6, 2020 46 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said: Given this thread is about the Great Flood it seemed more appropriate here though obviously it applies to both. Regardless, when searching for a date of the Mesopotamian flood myth it appears to me c. 6,000BC is the most likely candidate. Why? cormac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 6, 2020 #2012 Share Posted September 6, 2020 Just now, cormac mac airt said: Why? cormac Maybe it has something to do with the several major flooding events I linked in my previous post that occurred in the region at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 6, 2020 Author #2013 Share Posted September 6, 2020 Just for the record: Here a link to where I mentioned Overwijn's date for the flooding of the OLB Atland/Aldland : https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/184645-archivedoera-linda-book-and-the-great-flood/page/48/?tab=comments#comment-3586577 But I have also explained several times why the former dry seabed of the present North Sea could not have been the Atland/Aldland as mentioned in the OLB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted September 6, 2020 #2014 Share Posted September 6, 2020 40 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said: Maybe it has something to do with the several major flooding events I linked in my previous post that occurred in the region at this time. There were several that happened in and around the 3rd millennium BC as well. 6000 BC doesn’t make sense to me. cormac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 6, 2020 Author #2015 Share Posted September 6, 2020 1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said: There were several that happened in and around the 3rd millennium BC as well. 6000 BC doesn’t make sense to me. cormac The Storrega Slide? The collapse of Etna? The emptying of Lake Agassiz? They all happened around the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 6, 2020 Author #2016 Share Posted September 6, 2020 (edited) Sorry, I forgot your 'Why?' concerned the Mesopotamian flood. Edit: This site mentions a date: https://ncse.ngo/flood-mesopotamian-archaeological-evidence And it's not anywhere near 6000 bce. Edited September 6, 2020 by Abramelin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 6, 2020 #2017 Share Posted September 6, 2020 44 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said: There were several that happened in and around the 3rd millennium BC as well. 6000 BC doesn’t make sense to me. cormac ....like what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 6, 2020 #2018 Share Posted September 6, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Abramelin said: Sorry, I forgot your 'Why?' concerned the Mesopotamian flood. What other "Flood" is there? The Biblical tale is a culturally appropriated version of earlier Mesopotamian originals. Edited September 6, 2020 by Thanos5150 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 6, 2020 Author #2019 Share Posted September 6, 2020 No doubt there have been many floods. Personally I think the emptying of Lake Agassiz was the cause of many flood myths, because it raised sea levels for many feet around the globe. My favorite cause of the myths is the catastrophic emptying of the Siberian ice lakes. These lakes were huge, the size of the present Caspian Sea. When the ice dams breached because of the rising temperatures, these lakes would have emptied in a catastrophic way, killing anyone and anything it met on the way down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 6, 2020 #2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Abramelin said: No doubt there have been many floods. Personally I think the emptying of Lake Agassiz was the cause of many flood myths, because it raised sea levels for many feet around the globe. They are all variations of an original source that refers to a singular regional Flood event. Edited September 6, 2020 by Thanos5150 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 6, 2020 Author #2021 Share Posted September 6, 2020 (edited) Yeah, and that possible source is most probably the one you left out of your quote from my former post. ____ Ok, you edited your post. Edited September 6, 2020 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted September 6, 2020 #2022 Share Posted September 6, 2020 2 hours ago, Abramelin said: The Storrega Slide? The collapse of Etna? The emptying of Lake Agassiz? They all happened around the same time. Doesn’t mean they’re related to the Great Flood which was only really relevant to lower Mesopotamia. cormac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted September 6, 2020 #2023 Share Posted September 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Thanos5150 said: What other "Flood" is there? The Biblical tale is a culturally appropriated version of earlier Mesopotamian originals. My point exactly, it has nothing to do with Lake Agassiz, Mt. Etna, the Storegga Slide nor the Black Sea floods. cormac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos5150 Posted September 6, 2020 #2024 Share Posted September 6, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said: My point exactly, it has nothing to do with Lake Agassiz, Mt. Etna, the Storegga Slide nor the Black Sea floods. I thought your point was it happened in the 3rd millennium and made no sense to you otherwise and were going to give several examples of these events. Regardless, these are a cascade of events occurring at the same time period which any one might have inspired the original story. I assumed it was understood there was no "Global Flood". The Mesopotamian version is the oldest written account as yet found which does not mean, like all those that followed, that it was the original in which the story itself speaks of this event occurring long before. And regardless is not referring to a seasonal river flood but of a large body of water which there are only so many choices in the region. If you read the links, for a start, you will see instead of having "nothing" to do with it, it is actually possible it may have everything to do with it. Levantine Coast. Persian Gulf. Danube Valley. Hmmm. Edited September 6, 2020 by Thanos5150 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted September 6, 2020 #2025 Share Posted September 6, 2020 5 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said: I thought your point was it happened in the 3rd millennium and made no sense to you otherwise and were going to give several examples of these events. Regardless, these are a cascade of events occurring at the same time period which any one might have inspired the original story. I assumed it was understood there was no "Global Flood". The Mesopotamian version is the oldest written account as yet found which does not mean, like all those that followed, that it was the original in which the story itself speaks of this event occurring long before. And regardless is not referring to a seasonal river flood but of a large body of water which there are only so many choices in the region. If you read the links, for a start, you will see instead of having "nothing" to do with it, it is actually possible it may have everything to do with it. Levantine Coast. Persian Gulf. Danube Valley. Hmmm. No it’s that your speculated 6000 BC date makes no sense concerning an event that, if true, was relevant to the early peoples of Southern Mesopotamia especially since IIRC there are four large scale floods in that general timeframe of c. 3000 BC. Ur circa 3500 BC, 2 in Kish between 3000 and 2600 BC and Shuruppak between 2950 and 2850 BC. Again, 6000 BC makes no sense. cormac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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