acidhead Posted July 4, 2015 #26 Share Posted July 4, 2015 . The West is not mistake free. We've tried to intervene to our own detriment too often. But to continue to blame Western countries for Islamic Extremism and ISIS is just asinine at this point. I'm so SICK of hearing that mantra. Just curious.... What did the CIA conclude was the reason for the attacks on 911? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athena1979 Posted July 4, 2015 #27 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I thought Islam is supposed to be a peaceful religion. How awful to take something beautiful and destroy it with man's evil interpretation for their own greedful gain. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted July 4, 2015 #28 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Just curious.... What did the CIA conclude was the reason for the attacks on 911? I assume that's a rhetorical question? I'm not sure what official nonsense they came up with but the truth is our support of Israel is what precipitated it. That and our presence in S.A. p*** poor excuse to kill 3000 people but hey, bring the pain. We'll mix the cup and we can all share. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbenol Posted July 5, 2015 #29 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I assume that's a rhetorical question? I'm not sure what official nonsense they came up with but the truth is our support of Israel is what precipitated it. That and our presence in S.A. p*** poor excuse to kill 3000 people but hey, bring the pain. We'll mix the cup and we can all share. I think that was the point. The idea that Islamic terrorism against the West is motivated by ideological reasons (ie, they hate our freedom) is one of the most insidious lies propagated, and subsequently swallowed by enough people to justify continued meddling in that part of the world. It beggars belief when recent history shows a clear causal correlation between the rise of ISIS and Western support for the rebellions in Libya and Syria, and yet (apparently) intelligent people think that the solution to the issue is to act with the same level of stupidity that helped cause it in the first place. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted July 5, 2015 #30 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) I'm sorry but statements like this are idiotic. Why do you hate America and The West so much? If we left every muslim country tomorrow and built walls around our entire nation where no one could come or go, Islamic extremist would still hate us and our way of life. They would seek out ways to harm us and our children no matter what!! Why can you not grasp that? It's not our meddling. It's what we stand for. Freedom and free cultures are abhorrent to Islamic fundamentalist that want Sharia Law instituted across the world. Can you not understand that???? Do you think gays would have the right to marry under Islamic rule???? They throw gays off buildings for God's sake! The obtuse ignorance is astonishing to me, the backward thinking is just bizzarro. The West is not mistake free. We've tried to intervene to our own detriment too often. But to continue to blame Western countries for Islamic Extremism and ISIS is just asinine at this point. I'm so SICK of hearing that mantra. It's always a good way to convince people of the unassailable logic of your argument by not resorting to emotion and crying "why do people hate America????? " , like you've managed to do here.Well, done, your argument is irrefutable.So would you refute the suggestion that ISIS sprang up as a result of the power vacuum following the destruction of first Iraq, then Syria, then Libya, as functioning states? And O. bin Laden was not encouraged by the US, in very much the same way as ISI- I mean, the, er, Moderate rebels :oops: - to fight the Russkies, and then developed a warped hatred of the U.S. as a result of the permanent establishment of military bases on the holiest soil of Islam? You don't believe that either? certainly the U.S. isn't solely to blame for all of this; the silly little chubby man Cameron and his friend Sarkozy were largely responsible for creating the chaos in Libya, but to close your eyes to the West's involvement in all this is just so blinkered to the point of some kind of mania. Edited July 5, 2015 by Norbert the Incredible 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted July 5, 2015 #31 Share Posted July 5, 2015 you really think that solves anything? Putin should be judged in court for providing arms and stoking this war. This is an criminal offence, in Ukraine? We were talking about Syria. I know Putin is the current all-purpose monster, but what does he have to do with Syria? he supports Assad, yes, but he hasn't actively provided any hands-on assistance or so far as is known any weapons, and anyway, would that be more reprehensible than providing weapons to ISIS- er, the Rebels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kartikg Posted July 5, 2015 #32 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I'm sorry but statements like this are idiotic. Why do you hate America and The West so much? If we left every muslim country tomorrow and built walls around our entire nation where no one could come or go, Islamic extremist would still hate us and our way of life. They would seek out ways to harm us and our children no matter what!! Why can you not grasp that? It's not our meddling. It's what we stand for. Freedom and free cultures are abhorrent to Islamic fundamentalist that want Sharia Law instituted across the world. Can you not understand that???? Do you think gays would have the right to marry under Islamic rule???? They throw gays off buildings for God's sake! The obtuse ignorance is astonishing to me, the backward thinking is just bizzarro. The West is not mistake free. We've tried to intervene to our own detriment too often. But to continue to blame Western countries for Islamic Extremism and ISIS is just asinine at this point. I'm so SICK of hearing that mantra. Hate no , all I am asking is justice, with the intervention in Iraq there are now daily deaths , millions have been displaced . Is this really that hard to understand? The leaders who sanctioned this war should be tried in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.United_Nations Posted July 5, 2015 #33 Share Posted July 5, 2015 It does not solve anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted July 5, 2015 #34 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I think that was the point. The idea that Islamic terrorism against the West is motivated by ideological reasons (ie, they hate our freedom) is one of the most insidious lies propagated, and subsequently swallowed by enough people to justify continued meddling in that part of the world. It beggars belief when recent history shows a clear causal correlation between the rise of ISIS and Western support for the rebellions in Libya and Syria, and yet (apparently) intelligent people think that the solution to the issue is to act with the same level of stupidity that helped cause it in the first place. What possible difference does the cause of this conflict bear on what we do going forward? I've said it before and I'll repeat - when your house is burning down it's a poor time to call the arson inspector. First you try to PUT OUT THE DAMNED FIRE. Those who consistently want to cast blame and quantify causation rather than help find solutions deserve no respect for their input. Do you honestly believe that the West can now just "stop meddling" and then magically be left alone? Really? When there are young people from your region of the West signing on to ISIS to commit homicide bombings in Syria I'd say the time for oops... sorry... are gone. The choice now is to fight until they realize they cannot win. To do that is going to require a commitment that will take decades possibly and we are going to have to stop counting the costs by OUR moral standards and start toughening up or we're going to disappear as a culture. The weak do not survive in the real world except during an artificial time of peace and prosperity such as we have created since WWII. That time is over. You may feel snug and well hidden in your little corner of paradise but that's just denial. No one is safe from the evil this group purveys. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted July 5, 2015 #35 Share Posted July 5, 2015 What possible difference does the cause of this conflict bear on what we do going forward? I've said it before and I'll repeat - when your house is burning down it's a poor time to call the arson inspector. First you try to PUT OUT THE DAMNED FIRE. Those who consistently want to cast blame and quantify causation rather than help find solutions deserve no respect for their input. Do you honestly believe that the West can now just "stop meddling" and then magically be left alone? Really? When there are young people from your region of the West signing on to ISIS to commit homicide bombings in Syria I'd say the time for oops... sorry... are gone. The choice now is to fight until they realize they cannot win. To do that is going to require a commitment that will take decades possibly and we are going to have to stop counting the costs by OUR moral standards and start toughening up or we're going to disappear as a culture. The weak do not survive in the real world except during an artificial time of peace and prosperity such as we have created since WWII. That time is over. You may feel snug and well hidden in your little corner of paradise but that's just denial. No one is safe from the evil this group purveys. because it's frankly making things even more difficult by refusing to look at causes. We can take out ISIS' Second in command, and take out as many of them with air strikes as we possibly can, until the cows come home, but without giving any thought to why they came to be where they are, what motivates them (resentment of Western interference has a great deal to do with ti, just as it did with Al Q), and why they might, for all their barbarity, they appear to have at least a fair degree of support among the people in these areas, it'll just happen over and over and over and over again. It's like how the West learned the lessonw ith germany; after WWI they weren't interested in whatever grievances they may have had and just decided they were culpable for everything, and we know how that turned out. After WWII they were sensible enough to understand what had brought Hitler to power and tried hard to make sure the same circumstances wouldn't happen again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorVictor Posted July 5, 2015 #36 Share Posted July 5, 2015 because it's frankly making things even more difficult by refusing to look at causes. We can take out ISIS' Second in command, and take out as many of them with air strikes as we possibly can, until the cows come home, but without giving any thought to why they came to be where they are, what motivates them (resentment of Western interference has a great deal to do with ti, just as it did with Al Q), and why they might, for all their barbarity, they appear to have at least a fair degree of support among the people in these areas, it'll just happen over and over and over and over again. It's like how the West learned the lessonw ith germany; after WWI they weren't interested in whatever grievances they may have had and just decided they were culpable for everything, and we know how that turned out. After WWII they were sensible enough to understand what had brought Hitler to power and tried hard to make sure the same circumstances wouldn't happen again. What is your solution??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted July 5, 2015 #37 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) Surely as i said: not just bomb them, although that may well be necessary to put down this current outbreak, but consider why these outbreaks keep cropping up, and if that means having to hold our nose and consider that just possibly there just might be some element of justified grievance somewhere, consider whether it's possible to tackle that, and if it is, consider what might be done. Just bombing them and then bombing the next lot to spring up and so on for ever won't get anywhere. Edited July 5, 2015 by Norbert the Incredible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acidhead Posted July 5, 2015 #38 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) What is your solution??? First of all, terrorism is not a war. First of all, it’s a state of mind, it’s a culture, so you have to deal with this culture. You have to deal with it in an ideological way, and that implicates the education and the culture. Second, those terrorists exploit the poor people. You have to deal with poverty, so economic growth is very important, development. Third, you have to deal with the political issue that’s being used by these terrorists in order to indoctrinate those youths or children in solving the political problems in our region, for example the peace issue was one of the primary reasons for those terrorists to recruit terrorists.'' From H. E. President Assad's Expressen Newspaper Interview, April 17, 2015 Edited July 5, 2015 by acidhead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted July 5, 2015 #39 Share Posted July 5, 2015 First of all, terrorism is not a war. First of all, it's a state of mind, it's a culture, so you have to deal with this culture. You have to deal with it in an ideological way, and that implicates the education and the culture. Second, those terrorists exploit the poor people. You have to deal with poverty, so economic growth is very important, development. Third, you have to deal with the political issue that's being used by these terrorists in order to indoctrinate those youths or children in solving the political problems in our region, for example the peace issue was one of the primary reasons for those terrorists to recruit terrorists.'' From H. E. President Assad's Expressen Newspaper Interview, April 17, 2015 Despite the refusal of the West's leaders to admit it, terrorism in today's world is almost exclusively driven by Islamic fundamentalists. Economic considerations will not deter these people. To believe so is naive at best. Sure, it will trim a few % from the ranks but the majority of human beings who risk their lives for a cause certainly don't do so for wealth. It is a clash of civilization vs savagery and savagery will win regardless which side loses. To beat them we will be forced to become them. Even in WWII we had to change our concept of personal freedoms and what types of military strategies we would employ - just to survive and win. Personally I'd rather die than trade my own government as my oppressor rather than some religious zealot. Either way I am enslaved. But anyone who doubts what sharia would do in their world need look no further than Syria. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted July 5, 2015 #40 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Despite the refusal of the West's leaders to admit it, terrorism in today's world is almost exclusively driven by Islamic fundamentalists. Let's ignore nine people gunned down in Charleston. That isn't terrorism because it wasn't a Muslim who did it. And Anders Brevik, let's ignore him too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kartikg Posted July 5, 2015 #41 Share Posted July 5, 2015 What is your solution??? One solution is compromise , respect their "way of life" which means don't interfere in their internal affairs . If they want to burn homosexuals because it's against religion , no voting or driving for women, capital punishment or no democracy. USA doesn't meddle with Saudi Arabia so stop interfering in Libya ,Syria etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acidhead Posted July 5, 2015 #42 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Despite the refusal of the West's leaders to admit it, terrorism in today's world is almost exclusively driven by Islamic fundamentalists. Economic considerations will not deter these people. To believe so is naive at best. Sure, it will trim a few % from the ranks but the majority of human beings who risk their lives for a cause certainly don't do so for wealth. It is a clash of civilization vs savagery and savagery will win regardless which side loses. To beat them we will be forced to become them. Even in WWII we had to change our concept of personal freedoms and what types of military strategies we would employ - just to survive and win. Personally I'd rather die than trade my own government as my oppressor rather than some religious zealot. Either way I am enslaved. But anyone who doubts what sharia would do in their world need look no further than Syria. The so-called ISIL recruits are promised a wife and a monthly salary. There is an incentive to go there especially for a disillusioned youth with with an excuse for achieving the moderate skills to survive on their own back home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorVictor Posted July 5, 2015 #43 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Surely as i said: not just bomb them, although that may well be necessary to put down this current outbreak, but consider why these outbreaks keep cropping up, and if that means having to hold our nose and consider that just possibly there just might be some element of justified grievance somewhere, consider whether it's possible to tackle that, and if it is, consider what might be done. Just bombing them and then bombing the next lot to spring up and so on for ever won't get anywhere. Consider this, consider that, contemplate, meanwhile Mothers are forced to watch their children beheaded. Sounds like a good plan to me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorVictor Posted July 5, 2015 #44 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Let's ignore nine people gunned down in Charleston. That isn't terrorism because it wasn't a Muslim who did it. And Anders Brevik, let's ignore him too. Pettifog, divert, no real solutions....blah..blah..blah 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted July 5, 2015 #45 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Consider this, consider that, contemplate, meanwhile Mothers are forced to watch their children beheaded. Sounds like a good plan to me. It has always been this way with a portion of society though, hasn't it? Even in the face of horrific acts they want to attempt to understand an enemy. When this enemy becomes willing to ask for negotiations for peace then absolutely we should discuss their grievances but until then they should be dispatched to their demonic god as quickly and effectively as possible. This isn't some game where only "others" are fighting and dying. It WILL come home to us and it won't be long now, I suspect. I also believe there is a nuclear event in our future. Either Israel being forced to respond to a mass casualty attack or the US dealing with the aftermath of a decimated major city. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbenol Posted July 5, 2015 #46 Share Posted July 5, 2015 What possible difference does the cause of this conflict bear on what we do going forward? I've said it before and I'll repeat - when your house is burning down it's a poor time to call the arson inspector. First you try to PUT OUT THE DAMNED FIRE. Agreed. But when your house repeatedly burns down, only the fool doesn't ask 'why'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorVictor Posted July 6, 2015 #47 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Agreed. But when your house repeatedly burns down, only the fool doesn't ask 'why'. Well then what do you propose we do to change the why? I can't convince another man not to hate me. I can't force you to co-exist with me on this planet. I'm sure you'd like us to win hearts and minds, mend some fences??? Are you serious? Do you really believe we could somehow convince these people to just stop hating us? I find that incomprehensible, so go ahead and spell it out for me. How exactly do you propose to put an end to terrorism, without military intervention? How???? Maybe you'd like to volunteer to bridge the cultural gap? Perhaps if we just understood each other a little better......we could all hug it out around the fire, and sing songs. Perhaps you should start blogging about it or sending money to C.A.I.R. Really people.....you can not think your way around this issue as much as you'd like that to be the case. There will be no reconciliation. Like it or not the hatred and fanaticism is reality, and soon coming to a street corner, subway station, or shopping mall near YOU! Fanatical Islamists would have your head on a pike in a heartbeat. If you are to naive or ignorant to comprehend the depth of hatred, then I hope you all go first. It's this insolent, head in the sand ignorance, that existed pre 911, and is back with a vengeance, with some over the top political correctness covering the ass end. Some of you people are just downright stupid, and I truly hope you and yours are affected first. And the BS and hypocrisy is out of control in here. All that Kumbaya crap is going out the window if you are faced with life and death at the hands of the terrorism. Who gives a crap, why it's happening..................................IT's Happening......................and you, you and you are a target. Can you not comprehend????? Edited July 6, 2015 by VictorVictor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acidhead Posted July 6, 2015 #48 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) The chances of an american being killed by a lightening strike is four times greater than in a terrorist attack. Comparatively, you are just as likely to be killed by your television or furniture. Edited July 6, 2015 by acidhead 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorVictor Posted July 6, 2015 #49 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) The chances of an american being killed by a lightening strike is four times greater than in a terrorist attack. Comparatively, you are just as likely to be killed by your television or furniture. Ridiculous analogy....we aren't dealing with television and furniture.....and we damn sure aren't dealing with thunderstorms. You may like your odds..of survival...i get you acidhead, it's not a big concern of yours if a suitcase nuke is detonated in a major city tomorrow. As long as it's not you, or your family, or your city right? Do you really believe that's not a realistic possibility now? Let me tell you the percentages change really quickly when that takes place, because last I checked lighting and furniture doesn't pile up bodies like that. The goals of Islamic Terror are clear and distinct....mass casualties....mass murder....torturous death and the exposition of such to psychologically impact that enemy's populace. tv's and furniture...lighting strikes..................really? Edited July 6, 2015 by VictorVictor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Occult1 Posted July 6, 2015 #50 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Well then what do you propose we do to change the why? I can't convince another man not to hate me. I can't force you to co-exist with me on this planet. I'm sure you'd like us to win hearts and minds, mend some fences??? Are you serious? Do you really believe we could somehow convince these people to just stop hating us? I find that incomprehensible, so go ahead and spell it out for me. How exactly do you propose to put an end to terrorism, without military intervention? How???? Interventionist policies in the Middle-East have been more damaging than anything else. The reason why we are targeted by these extremists is because we are meddling in their sectarian strifes. Even the common people in the M.E have come to perceive the West as imperialist and distrust it's agenda. If you are an American, then maybe you shoud listen to what a guy like Ron Paul has been telling you for years: Stop meddling. I agree that it would take a long time to reverse the damages. To change our reputation abroad. But it starts with a change of foreign policy from within. For too long the warmongers had their way. And what did it amount to? Iraq, Libya, Syria? These failed states have become breeding ground for terrorism. Edited July 6, 2015 by Phenix20 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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