A rather obscure Bassoon Posted July 8, 2015 #26 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Exactly, we all know what happened to germany after the victorious nations of WWI took such a hardline vindictive attitude towards it, and surely the German politicians haven't forgotten, and now they're wanting to do exactly the same thing to greece (whose guilt is on a rather smaller scale to Germany's after the war). Wasn't Greece one of the countries that signed the Document agreeing to cut the German debt by 50% after WWII.... This has already been mentioned on a previous post, my apologies. Edited July 8, 2015 by shaddow134 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted July 8, 2015 #27 Share Posted July 8, 2015 \And the Eu should accept that doling out shiploads of money without, apparently, even checking the creditworthiness of those they're giving it to is so irresponsible as to destroy their credibility as being financially competent. Or perhaps it wasn't just incompetence and they knew that Greece couldn't possibly pay it back, but they gave them it anyway, knowing that they could then use it as blackmail to extort Greece in any way they might want to (such as, for example, over any deal with Russia they might wish to make). In which case the European Empire isn't incompetent, it's downright mafia-like. We all knew that the Greeks were in a mire from day one. But the choice was to give them free money, or to give them money with hooks so that they might rework how they ran things. Giving a man a fish feeds him for a day, teach the man to fish and he can eat every day, right? Germany was trying to teach Greece to "fish". But, the Greeks insist on being given the one fish NOW! The Greeks could have met their commitments and got more loans, and maybe had their pensions cut another 5%, but they didn't want that. They'd rather have an economic collapse and 0% to 50% of their pensions. Wait till those people who didn't want their pensions cut turn around and have no pension at all. They want the credit card company to stop calling but refuse to pay the bill. Then when they do answer the phone they try to negotiate either a credit raise, or forgiveness of some of the debt. The real world doesn't usually work that way. Should the Germans have cut a better deal? Yes. Should either side have let it go this far? No. I do blame the Germans, but I also have to assign guilt to the Greeks because this is a mess of their own making..... Like a kid who wrecks his dad's car and then complains that his dad is taking away his allowance money to help pay for the repairs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted July 8, 2015 #28 Share Posted July 8, 2015 My estimate is leaving about 50 years of blood sweat and tears before they get back to the stage of 2001, staying 30 years. That seems a bit long to me. But I think you have the right idea. Leaving the euro and/or the EU is going to push Greece much further down the economic rat hole then if they'd simply taken the austerity beating from the IMF and EU. I do admit that Paul Krugman is correct in his logic, that in maybe 30 years, Greece will be in a much stronger position for leaving the euro then it would be in staying. It is just that they are going to have to suffer two generations of extreme hardships to get there. When they could have suffered mild to moderate hardships and gotten 90% of the same place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted July 8, 2015 #29 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Greece needs to leave, to devalue and inflate the debt away, then in two years time when its back to normal it can consider re-entering the single currency. But should only do so this time when its economy is in phase with the EU one. I think the problem is that the big boys of the EU feel that the other debt ridden nations, such as Portugal, Ireland, Spain and even Italy, will do the same to escape their debts. Especially if it appears that Greece would be able to recover quickly (Which I very much doubt happening). They are making decisions based on Fear. Which is never a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted July 8, 2015 #30 Share Posted July 8, 2015 We all knew that the Greeks were in a mire from day one. But the choice was to give them free money, or to give them money with hooks so that they might rework how they ran things. Giving a man a fish feeds him for a day, teach the man to fish and he can eat every day, right? Germany was trying to teach Greece to "fish". But, the Greeks insist on being given the one fish NOW! The Greeks could have met their commitments and got more loans, and maybe had their pensions cut another 5%, but they didn't want that. They'd rather have an economic collapse and 0% to 50% of their pensions. Wait till those people who didn't want their pensions cut turn around and have no pension at all. They want the credit card company to stop calling but refuse to pay the bill. Then when they do answer the phone they try to negotiate either a credit raise, or forgiveness of some of the debt. The real world doesn't usually work that way. Should the Germans have cut a better deal? Yes. Should either side have let it go this far? No. I do blame the Germans, but I also have to assign guilt to the Greeks because this is a mess of their own making..... Like a kid who wrecks his dad's car and then complains that his dad is taking away his allowance money to help pay for the repairs. So yet again it's the devious and feckless Greeks to blame for cheating the benign and patriarchal EU? And the financial institutions of the EU can only look on in a bemused and hurt fashion that the Greeks have cheated them? And the Greeks will have to put up with 30 years of austerity as retribution for cheating the EU, who only lent them this money* out of the sheer goodness of their hearts, and weren't at all behaving in the fashion of a loan shark? No, actually that's unfair to loan sharks; they at least are astute enough to only select as their victims people who they think they might have a fair chance of successfully putting the squeeze on. A loan shark wouldn't stay in business long if they behaved like the EU Financial Institutions have, and, this is a nice irony, if the EU Financial Institutions were commercial banks the only way they could survive if they behave in this way would be by begging for enormous bailouts from the goverment. * of which Greece actually saw hardly any at all, nearly all of it going straight to the Banks that Greece owed to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted July 8, 2015 #31 Share Posted July 8, 2015 That seems a bit long to me. But I think you have the right idea. Leaving the euro and/or the EU is going to push Greece much further down the economic rat hole then if they'd simply taken the austerity beating from the IMF and EU. I do admit that Paul Krugman is correct in his logic, that in maybe 30 years, Greece will be in a much stronger position for leaving the euro then it would be in staying. It is just that they are going to have to suffer two generations of extreme hardships to get there. When they could have suffered mild to moderate hardships and gotten 90% of the same place. I guess the 5 year beating the Greek nation took just wasn't enough for the Germans? Germany had substantial debt relief in 1953 and the Marshall plan before it that saved its ****...thanks to its friends and allies... all Greece got was constant lectures, insults via the German press and threats. I don't know what your idea about helping a bankrupt nation is BUT loading more debt upon a country just doesn't seem right to me nor Paul Krugman. You qoute Paul Krugman but he is of the opinion that Greece needs less debt not more... he even goes as far as to say that what Germany and that tyrant Merkel are doing is criminal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted July 8, 2015 #32 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) How long before the tyrant Merkel starts blustering that military intervention may be necessary to maintain order, and to protect the interests of Europe? Edited July 8, 2015 by Norbert the Incredible 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted July 8, 2015 #33 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Well it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Merkel and Schäuble start issuing orders to mobilise Germany's military, under the pretext of "protecting" tourists and their banks... I tell you these two belong in The Hague. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted July 8, 2015 #34 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Just imagine what would happen if, as some have suggested, Russia and/or China was to make an alliance with Greece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godnodog Posted July 8, 2015 #35 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Greece has achieved primary surplus, but the sheer amount of loans and ridiculoudly high amount of interest rate, makes Greece to be in deficit, EU wants their primary surplus to be nearly 4%of the GDP,mwich is unsustainable in 2 ways, 1 means the cuts wilk cause further recession, 2 it cant be achieved because of reason 1. People keep forgeting that the common market is still not out of the recession, and the countries like Portugal and Spain cant achieve better resuts because of it, although Pt already has growth higher than about 1.3% (numbers may change due to the greek crisis). Now there is a 2nd problem for the eurozone, which is if Greece leaves and eclares bankrupcy, Pt may be attacked ny specualtors despite having achieved loans at the lowest rates in our history, loans by the privat markets not institutions like Ecb or Imf. Portugal is out of the assistance program but may be caught in the turmoil of Greece, despite having no similiraties to the Greece problem. Portugal problems are different from Greece's problems as its different from Irland' problems, as Ireland is different from Greece, 3 countries with different problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A rather obscure Bassoon Posted July 8, 2015 #36 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Just imagine what would happen if, as some have suggested, Russia and/or China was to make an alliance with Greece. It would be a realistic scenario for Putin to step in if Greece were to leave the EEC.It would cause quite a kerfuffle and I think Putin would love to poke his stick into the Wasp's nest. Edited July 8, 2015 by shaddow134 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmk1245 Posted July 8, 2015 #37 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I guess the 5 year beating the Greek nation took just wasn't enough for the Germans? Germany had substantial debt relief in 1953 and the Marshall plan before it that saved its ****...thanks to its friends and allies... all Greece got was constant lectures, insults via the German press and threats. I don't know what your idea about helping a bankrupt nation is BUT loading more debt upon a country just doesn't seem right to me nor Paul Krugman. You qoute Paul Krugman but he is of the opinion that Greece needs less debt not more... he even goes as far as to say that what Germany and that tyrant Merkel are doing is criminal. Heh, did Germans lived luxury life before that? No. They were working their arses off before that, and afterwards. So... Oranges and apples... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmk1245 Posted July 8, 2015 #38 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Just imagine what would happen if, as some have suggested, Russia and/or China was to make an alliance with Greece. Except, China's economy has problems, not to mention that Russia is still sliding down and didn't reached bottom yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A rather obscure Bassoon Posted July 8, 2015 #39 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Except, China's economy has problems, not to mention that Russia is still sliding down and didn't reached bottom yet. The US may increase Interest rates this Year, could make for Interesting times in the Eurozone in the coming months. Edited July 8, 2015 by shaddow134 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted July 8, 2015 #40 Share Posted July 8, 2015 How long before the tyrant Merkel starts blustering that military intervention may be necessary to maintain order, and to protect the interests of Europe? It is legal for one country to declare war on another that has defaulted on its debts. In fact France, Italy and others who would also lose out might demand it. Annex the Greeks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted July 8, 2015 Author #41 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) It is legal for one country to declare war on another that has defaulted on its debts. In fact France, Italy and others who would also lose out might demand it. Annex the Greeks! I doubt it. Never brought much luck to anybody who did... neither Romans, Venetians or Turks were very happy with what they "conquered". They almost all seem to steer the boat in the Grexit direction, especially as a majority of economists predict a strengthening of the Eurozone as a consequence (after redoing the math and noticing that the whole Greek mess is not affecting the markets at all). The Grexit would not be exactly what France wants because French Banks suddenly would get back a whole slew of worthless Greek bonds (about 160 billion worth) and a hefty demand for repayment or putting up another collateral, in a smaller amount that would also be for Spain. In Bulgaria it could cause a small run on the banks as Bulgarian subsidiaries of Greek banks have a whole bunch of Greek junk bonds (paid with Bulgarian saver's money)... but overall it is manageable (in fact, by just putting the ESF money there instead of in Greece the problem would be solved). Edited July 8, 2015 by questionmark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted July 8, 2015 #42 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I doubt it. Never brought much luck to anybody who did... neither Romans, Venetians or Turks were very happy with what they "conquered". They almost all seem to steer the boat in the Grexit direction, especially as a majority of economists predict a strengthening of the Eurozone as a consequence (after redoing the math and noticing that the whole Greek mess is not affecting the markets at all). The Grexit would not be exactly what France wants because French Banks suddenly would get back a whole slew of worthless Greek bonds (about 160 billion worth) and a hefty demand for repayment or putting up another collateral, in a smaller amount that would also be for Spain. In Bulgaria it could cause a small run on the banks as Bulgarian subsidiaries of Greek banks have a whole bunch of Greek junk bonds (paid with Bulgarian saver's money)... but overall it is manageable (in fact, by just putting the ESF money there instead of in Greece the problem would be solved). Just for you me old mate: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted July 8, 2015 Author #43 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I saw that while at the hair dresser today, you should have heard the Greek scream and calling him names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted July 8, 2015 #44 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) I saw that while at the hair dresser today, you should have heard the Greek scream and calling him names. I hope you was with your wife, only women go the hair-dressers, Did you get a 50% haircut?. Just seen on the French News channel, French exposure to Greece is $65 Billion not the usual €40 billion euros quoted. No wonder the French want a write down of the debt. What was also interesting was the exposure figures for Spain, Portugal, Italy. the figures where to high for these countries to absorb without a knock on effect to their fragile economies. If Greece defaults Spain wobbles, and could push it over the edge, even with Spain's recent performance. the house of cards could fall. Edited July 8, 2015 by stevewinn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted July 8, 2015 Author #45 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I hope you was with your wife, only women go the hair-dressers, Did you get a 50% haircut?. Just seen on the French News channel, French exposure to Greece is $65 Billion not the usual €40 billion euros quoted. No wonder the French want a write down of the debt. What was also interesting was the exposure figures for Spain, Portugal, Italy. the figures where to high for these countries to absorb without a knock on effect to their fragile economies. If Greece defaults Spain wobbles, and could push it over the edge, even with Spain's recent performance. the house of cards could fall. We call him the hair dresser 'cause a guy and hid daughter run the place and both men and women get their hair cut there. So don't worry, I did not get a perm. If Greece fails Spain gets the money earmarked for Greece and story over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExpandMyMind Posted July 8, 2015 #46 Share Posted July 8, 2015 We call him the hair dresser 'cause a guy and hid daughter run the place and both men and women get their hair cut there. So don't worry, I did not get a perm. Hmm, that sounds like backtracking to me, Steve Don't be ashamed, Q, lots of guys get highlights at some point in their lives Embrace it! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted July 8, 2015 #47 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Hmm, that sounds like backtracking to me, Steve Don't be ashamed, Q, lots of guys get highlights at some point in their lives Embrace it! It sure does, i have to admit, in work i made the fatal mistake of calling the barbers the Hairdressers what followed was 8 hours of mickey taking. the next day i opened my locker and there i found a pair of high heels. by the end of the shift my ankles were killing me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted July 8, 2015 #48 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Back onto the subject of the tyrannical dictatorship, have you seen the latest EU Intiative that Wikipedia is getting indignant about.. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Panorama_in_Europe_in_2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted July 8, 2015 #49 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Heh, did Germans lived luxury life before that? No. They were working their arses off before that, and afterwards. So... Oranges and apples... Yeah they worked their 'arses off' destroying Europe, TWICE! I agree. Then the allies forgave Germany and its debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted July 8, 2015 #50 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Heh, did Germans lived luxury life before that? No. They were working their arses off before that, and afterwards. So... Oranges and apples... Yup, they were damn efficient and hard working, it must've been all that marching and saluting, it's good training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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