Harry_Dresden Posted July 9, 2015 #101 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) The bank, for being so incompetent and/or loan shark-ish as to offer it, without checking your creditworthiness. The one who could not realistically be blamed would be the one being offered it for accepting it if they were in such desperate straits. They would truly have to have the self restraint of a saint not to accept it in such circumstances. You've hit the nail on the head there. Interest rates were so low at the time that the banks were more interested in a return on their investment rather than the security of their investment. Lets be real though and admit that the Greeks could have been better served by the the people they elected to government them BUT like you said the bankers and more importantly Europe should have to take an equal proportion of the blame for leading the money and looking the other way when presented with the facts. Edited July 9, 2015 by Harry_Dresden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted July 9, 2015 #102 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) At least giving you a laugh? So you believe that the one to blame and the only one to blame would be the one accepting the loan so foolishly offered? You really think that? I'm afraid that although I may have given you a laugh, you seem to have no notion whatsoever of how anyone would act in the situation you present. it's just utterly, ridiculously unrealistic to imagine that the one being offered the loan would be so saint-like as to refuse it, and to somehow try to pretend that the one offering it is either so naive as to offer it without doing any checking first, or so utterly callous as to offer it knowing full well that their victim wouldn't be able to pay it back, but either way is doing nothing wrong, can only be attributed to a love of the EU that's little short of fanatical. No, I understand many would leap at the chance to get the loan - and would not put proper thought into the consequences. That 'desperation' doesn't make them right, Norbert, it only makes them desperate to maintain a level of lifestyle they can obviously no longer afford. Edited July 9, 2015 by Leonardo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted July 9, 2015 #103 Share Posted July 9, 2015 No, I understand many would leap at the chance to get the loan - and would not put proper thought into the consequences. That 'desperation' doesn't make them right, Norbert, it only makes them desperate to maintain a level of lifestyle they can obviously no longer afford. Well how 'bout the desperation of the banks to maintain a profit? Or Europe to keep the euro project going at all costs even though it's grown bigger than it's members? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted July 9, 2015 #104 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Well how 'bout the desperation of the banks to maintain a profit? Or Europe to keep the euro project going at all costs even though it's grown bigger than it's members? Are you suggesting the EU made Greece take the loan with threats? And made the Greek govt spend that money on early retirement pensions for a grossly oversized public sector? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted July 9, 2015 #105 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) Are you suggesting the EU made Greece take the loan with threats? And made the Greek govt spend that money on early retirement pensions for a grossly oversized public sector? Threats? You're the only one that's used that word here. Europe looked the other way with Greece's figures and it wasn't just Greece that flew under the radar... so did Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland. France and Germany have broken their own EU sponsored budgetary rules countless times. Britain and Denmark have been found to be in breach of EU financial rules too. It was a culture prelevent in the EU that doesn't surprise many and it shouldn't surprise you. The pension system even though needed badly reforms by and large it has been grossly exaggerated by German media and the public sector has been trimmed by 40%. But talking about a bomb that's already exploded is kinda irrelevant the issue is how to jump start an economy that's been decimated by austerity and a banking system that has collapsed. I mean how much more does Merkel feel Greece needs to be punished? That's the question. Why don't you tell me? Edited July 9, 2015 by Harry_Dresden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingitsune Posted July 10, 2015 #106 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Most other governments could be corrupt, but to this point I have yet to see one that by abacadabra made 5% of the GDP be swallowed in a black hole, year for year, for 30 years. That made Greece's biggest decline. You see that quite a lot in Africa, Central Asia and Central America. Even in the non-EU Balkan you have quite a few of these money black holes. I mean how much more does Merkel feel Greece needs to be punished? Remember Merkel is an East German and as such, would consider that as long as Greece don't reach the lows East Europeans reached at the worst of the communism era, they can still take more austerity. That's probably the point of view of Estonians, Poles, Checks, Slovaks, etc. To them, what the Greeks are going through now is not remotely close to real austerity. In Merkel eyes, they are just spoiled kids doing tantrum over a toy they themselves broke. the issue is how to jump start an economy that's been decimated by austerity and a banking system that has collapsed. The only solution I see is for the Greeks people to give the next loan to he government from their own economies, at better rates that the market would. It worked for Japan, even if they still waiting for the recovery to kick in, two decades and a half after the crash. But since they own their debt to themselves, things hold together, somehow. Now, would Greeks trust their own government enough to try this kind of gamble... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Posted July 10, 2015 #107 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) So; breaking news, Greece gets money the creditors accepted the new reform-suggestions (which basically seem to be the same as in the beginning). So what I am wondering is, what was the drama about? Anyway next country will be Italy I guess. Edited July 10, 2015 by hellwyr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted July 10, 2015 Author #108 Share Posted July 10, 2015 So; breaking news, Greece gets money the creditors accepted the new reform-suggestions (which basically seem to be the same as in the beginning). So what I am wondering is, what was the drama about? Anyway next country will be Italy I guess. Very simple: you should not play chicken with a 40 ton truck if you are riding on a scooter. And no, France is more likely, Italy is getting its act together (they are in austerity mode without getting "no money"). And it was the French who sent their EU-subsidy experts to help the inexperienced Greek government to write a water tight proposal (just in case Mr. Schäuble looks for an i without a dot). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Posted July 10, 2015 #109 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) Very simple: you should not play chicken with a 40 ton truck if you are riding on a scooter. And no, France is more likely, Italy is getting its act together (they are in austerity mode without getting "no money"). And it was the French who sent their EU-subsidy experts to help the inexperienced Greek government to write a water tight proposal (just in case Mr. Schäuble looks for an i without a dot). I guess Greece was to gutless to Grexit and restructure the whole country now it will get much worse if they really intend to do these "reforms" edit: maybe it was all planned, they intentionally dragged it on, made rhe people suffer so they would tolerate the reforms and dont revolt against it. Edited July 10, 2015 by hellwyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted July 10, 2015 Author #110 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) I guess Greece was to gutless to Grexit and restructure the whole country now it will get much worse if they really intend to do these "reforms" edit: maybe it was all planned, they intentionally dragged it on, made rhe people suffer so they would tolerate the reforms and dont revolt against it. 80% of the Greeks want to keep the Euro and stay in the EU. They voted for Tsipras so they would not have to go through austerity (that is what he promised) so the minimum he had to do is put up a good show. Now, that surely has soured a lot of good-will all over the place. And he quit playing chicken a week too late. All one week before and he could have had the old conditions. Now, this does not mean that they will actually solve the problem but there will be 3 years quiet if it all goes through. And by looking at the track record and my experience living in Greece: Hell freezes over first. And UpDATE!: Schäuble wants new rules for the Eurozone by creating the possibility to throw out countries who do not take the commitment of keeping a lid on debts seriously. He wants to avoid another Greece. For those who read German Edited July 10, 2015 by questionmark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted July 10, 2015 #111 Share Posted July 10, 2015 So; breaking news, Greece gets money the creditors accepted the new reform-suggestions (which basically seem to be the same as in the beginning). So what I am wondering is, what was the drama about? Anyway next country will be Italy I guess. The message is those who control your currency control you. Greece is a warning to others. It seems the Greek Austerity plan, the one Greece put forward is worse than the one they rejected initially. i suspect a lot of angry people in Greece right now, once the details emerge in full. It cannot be long now, before another the Greek government falls for a third time since the economic crisis started. The fun and games continue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted July 10, 2015 #112 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Good news, everyone: Greek Deal Hopes Helps Spur Strong Stock market gains. And she sells sea shells on the sea shore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Posted July 10, 2015 #113 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Good news, everyone: Greek Deal Hopes Helps Spur Strong Stock market gains. And she sells sea shells on the sea shore. the financial markets are saved. Good now I can sleep in peace. And I was afraid that just maybe the real economy would benefit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingitsune Posted July 10, 2015 #114 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) As for who's next after Greece, no one is next. Ireland, Portugal and Spain are already back in black ink and they intend to stay away from foreign intervention by not placing themselves in a situation were they need a new bailout. Their unemployment rates are going down, the state revenues are going up, the commercial balance is in the black ink too, so are the yearly finances of the state. They have seen the worst of it already and they should be back on their half of the 2000s' normal by five to ten years. As for France and Italy, they are too big to save if they mess up. But there is no fear for Italy, they already took means to make the budget balance, the commercial balance is positive and the unemployment is going down. Plus, Italy is one weird country, the North have comparable economics to Austria, Switzerland and South Germany, while the South of the country look more like East Europe. The government need to push economic development further South. As for France, she seems to be back in the growth zone, the next months will tell if it's just a freak burst, or if the worst of the crisis is finally behind. Edited July 10, 2015 by Gingitsune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Posted July 10, 2015 #115 Share Posted July 10, 2015 As for who's next after Greece, no one is next. Ireland, Portugal and Spain are already back in black ink and they intend to stay away from foreign intervention by not placing themselves in a situation were they need a new bailout. Their unemployment rates are going down, the state revenues are going up, the commercial balance is in the black ink too, so are the yearly finances of the state. They have seen the worst of it already and they should be back on their half of the 2000s' normal by five to ten years. As for France and Italy, they are too big to save if they mess up. But there is no fear for Italy, they already took means to make the budget balance, the commercial balance is positive and the unemployment is going down. Plus, Italy is one weird country, the North have comparable economics to Austria, Switzerland and South Germany, while the South of the country look more like East Europe. The government need to push economic development further South. As for France, she seems to be back in the growth zone, the next months will tell if it's just a freak burst, or if the worst of the crisis is finally behind. wrong everyone is next it is just a matter of time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted July 10, 2015 #116 Share Posted July 10, 2015 As for who's next after Greece, no one is next. Ireland, Portugal and Spain are already back in black ink and they intend to stay away from foreign intervention by not placing themselves in a situation were they need a new bailout. Their unemployment rates are going down, the state revenues are going up, the commercial balance is in the black ink too, so are the yearly finances of the state. They have seen the worst of it already and they should be back on their half of the 2000s' normal by five to ten years. As for France and Italy, they are too big to save if they mess up. But there is no fear for Italy, they already took means to make the budget balance, the commercial balance is positive and the unemployment is going down. Plus, Italy is one weird country, the North have comparable economics to Austria, Switzerland and South Germany, while the South of the country look more like East Europe. The government need to push economic development further South. As for France, she seems to be back in the growth zone, the next months will tell if it's just a freak burst, or if the worst of the crisis is finally behind. You say who's next after Greece, Greece isn't over, what we are witnessing is only the beginning, nothing has changed in fact they are making the problem bigger - so the eventual fall will be greater. I said to questionmark when he said much the same as yourself after the last bailout, when it was all handshakes and back slaps in the EU, i said then and i'll say it again. this ain't over, not by a long shot. The United Kingdom needs to reduce its exposure to the EU/Euro area ASAP. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A rather obscure Bassoon Posted July 10, 2015 #117 Share Posted July 10, 2015 80% of the Greeks want to keep the Euro and stay in the EU. They voted for Tsipras so they would not have to go through austerity (that is what he promised) so the minimum he had to do is put up a good show. Now, that surely has soured a lot of good-will all over the place. And he quit playing chicken a week too late. All one week before and he could have had the old conditions. Now, this does not mean that they will actually solve the problem but there will be 3 years quiet if it all goes through. And by looking at the track record and my experience living in Greece: Hell freezes over first. And UpDATE!: Schäuble wants new rules for the Eurozone by creating the possibility to throw out countries who do not take the commitment of keeping a lid on debts seriously. He wants to avoid another Greece. For those who read German He states: " In Federal Ministry of Finance, there are also far-reaching considerations in future to a situation such as Greece in the euro zone to avoid. In rules of monetary union, a provision must be created to throw a country that abides by no rules and agreement from the euro". A little late, maybe in the rush to create a federal financial state the big boys turned a blind eye to Greece's economic inadequacies. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kartikg Posted July 10, 2015 #118 Share Posted July 10, 2015 The bank, for being so incompetent and/or loan shark-ish as to offer it, without checking your creditworthiness. The one who could not realistically be blamed would be the one being offered it for accepting it if they were in such desperate straits. They would truly have to have the self restraint of a saint not to accept it in such circumstances. If banks really really enforced their rules then only people getting loans would be the ones who don't need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted July 10, 2015 #119 Share Posted July 10, 2015 So; breaking news, Greece gets money the creditors accepted the new reform-suggestions (which basically seem to be the same as in the beginning). So what I am wondering is, what was the drama about? Anyway next country will be Italy I guess. The drama is the same as before, mainly debt relief. The Germans are still resisting a classic write downing a portion of the massive 320 billion euro debt suggesting instead extending the loans and tweeking the conditions against the judgement of the U.S. the IMF and France. My understanding is that it's a rule in the EU currency laws that prohibit debt forgiveness for a member state. Which means that Merkel won't change the law cause she would be hammered by her own party. Guess this drama will be around for until at least a left wing government assume power in Germany. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted July 10, 2015 #120 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) You say who's next after Greece, Greece isn't over, what we are witnessing is only the beginning, nothing has changed in fact they are making the problem bigger - so the eventual fall will be greater. I said to questionmark when he said much the same as yourself after the last bailout, when it was all handshakes and back slaps in the EU, i said then and i'll say it again. this ain't over, not by a long shot. The United Kingdom needs to reduce its exposure to the EU/Euro area ASAP. The UK might just have gotten this one right all along by staying away from Germany's European currency machinations. Merkel is in a fortuitous position at the moment with so many right wing governments in power, ready to do her bidding but it will not last and I expect a serious realignment of the eurozone in the years to come after she's gone. A valuable lesson for all members at what a United currency means for a sobering group of nations. Edited July 10, 2015 by Harry_Dresden 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted July 11, 2015 #121 Share Posted July 11, 2015 . Nige giving his take on it all - Nigel Farage to Alexis Tsipras - Greece's Moment Has Come now - I haven't followed the Euro business closely - but doesn't the need for austerity all over the place mean that it has already failed.? . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted July 11, 2015 Author #122 Share Posted July 11, 2015 No, it just means that somecountries are not going to leave the party bill to their grandchildren. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Posted July 11, 2015 #123 Share Posted July 11, 2015 No, it just means that somecountries are not going to leave the party bill to their grandchildren. do you seriously believe that any country which have so much debt that includes like 80 percent of Europe and the USA will ever be able to repay their debt .. lel. The system isn`t built that way, it is not possible to repay your debt if it reached a certain amount, which it has reached a long time ago. If you demand from the USA she shoulder repay her debt right now, she couldnt the same goes for most countries. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted July 11, 2015 #124 Share Posted July 11, 2015 do you seriously believe that any country which have so much debt that includes like 80 percent of Europe and the USA will ever be able to repay their debt... If they stop spending beyond their means, then yes such a situation is possible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Noteverythingisaconspiracy Posted July 11, 2015 #125 Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) do you seriously believe that any country which have so much debt that includes like 80 percent of Europe and the USA will ever be able to repay their debt .. lel. The system isn`t built that way, it is not possible to repay your debt if it reached a certain amount, which it has reached a long time ago. If you demand from the USA she shoulder repay her debt right now, she couldnt the same goes for most countries. Most of the loans that a country takes are repaid over a number of years, so if you are able to repay those loans without taking new loans to do so, it is quite possible to bring down your debt by a significant amount. As long as you don't have to take new loans to cover the old ones, you should be fine after a number of years. Basically if you spend less than you earn the debt will fall in the long term, as the old loans are repaid. Thats what we did here in Denmark. The followin graph shows our debt as a percentage of GDP: Edited July 11, 2015 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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